What approach is used for Greek transliteration?
What is the approach that Logos uses for transliteration? For example, I have seen that upsilon is sometimes transliterated as y and sometimes u.
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It depends on the resource, not on Logos. Logos' task is to reproduce (perfectly if they can) the resources as they appear in paper format. Thus you are seeing the fruits of the original author's work.
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Then let me be more specific. I have an ESV English-Greek Reverse Interlinear New Testament. I contacted John Schwandt, the general editor, to ask this question. He said that Logos had supplied the transliteration and he did not know the source. So, what is the source of the transliteration used in the ESV interlinear?
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So, in your example Y and U are both used for the upsilon in the same ESV interlinear but at different places?
I'm afraid I can do nothing more than stand beside you now and await the same answer.
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Here is an example. Acts 4:32, hyparchonton (5225), auto (846). The upsilon at or near the beginning of a word with the hard accent is consistently transliterated with y.
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Mark Smith said:
what is the source of the transliteration used in the ESV interlinear?
Generally speaking, you are. Sort of. Go to Program Settings, and you can choose what standard you want to see used.
Mac Pro (late 2013) OS 12.6.2
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Mark Smith said:
Here is an example. Acts 4:32, hyparchonton (5225), auto (846). The upsilon at or near the beginning of a word with the hard accent is consistently transliterated with y.
The transliteration hyparchonton includes "h" for the rough breathing mark over upsilon. In contrast, a smooth breathing mark is over the upsilon in auto.
The English prefix hyp- often corresponds to two Greek letters upsilon and pi with a rough breathing mark over upsilon. Appears upsilon with rough breathing at beginning of a word is transliterated "hy" while "u" is used for other upsilons. Note: the capital form of upsilon Υ looks like a Y.
By the way, the word hyparchonton has an acute accent over omicron while the word auto has a circumflex accent over omega.
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Thanks for the detailed response and explanation. So if I understand correctly, the transliteration is not merely a transposition from Greek to equivalent English letters. But should the Greek be pronounced "hyp" or "hup"? I have read a little about the different ways proposed to pronounce NT Greek, but I have not seen anything to suggest that upsilon should be pronounced differently depending on placement or accent within a particular system of pronunciation.
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Mark Smith said:
What is the approach that Logos uses for transliteration? For example, I have seen that upsilon is sometimes transliterated as y and sometimes u.
The default Greek transliteration style in Logos 4 comes from the SBL Handbook of Style §5.3. I don't think that resource is available online, but a summary of its rules are here: http://www.viceregency.com/Translit.htm
Note that "υ" is transliterated as "y" except in the diphthongs αυ, ευ, ηυ, ου, υι where it is instead transliterated as "u".
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Bradley Grainger said:Mark Smith said:
What is the approach that Logos uses for transliteration? For example, I have seen that upsilon is sometimes transliterated as y and sometimes u.
The default Greek transliteration style in Logos 4 comes from the SBL Handbook of Style §5.3. I don't think that resource is available online, but a summary of its rules are here: http://www.viceregency.com/Translit.htm
Note that "υ" is transliterated as "y" except in the diphthongs αυ, ευ, ηυ, ου, υι where it is instead transliterated as "u".
Thanks [8-|]
Appears upsilon with rough breathing at beginning of a word is transliterated "hy" while "u" is used for other upsilons.
Apologies: looking at soul (Acts 4:32) in screen shot shows upsilon with "y" transliteration.
Transliteration has variances to render (or print) Greek and Hebrew using English letters.
Mark Smith said:But should the Greek be pronounced "hyp" or "hup"?
Yes. For lemma's, Logos 4 has two Greek pronunciations: Erasmus and Modern.
By the way, some English letters have changed over centuries of use. For example, a reprint of the First Edition of the Authorized Version has these Old Testament books:
- Efther
- Iob
- Pfalmes
- Prouerbes
- Ecclefiaftes
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Bradley Grainger said:
its rules are here: http://www.viceregency.com/Translit.htm
Note that "υ" is transliterated as "y" except in the diphthongs αυ, ευ, ηυ, ου, υι where it is instead transliterated as "u".
And, if you're interested in transliterating your own unicode Greek words/strings, you can use http://transliterate.com/ which follows the same rules ("Society of Biblical Literature" output) but also gives some other options.
(note: transliterate.com is a Logos site)
Rick Brannan | Bluesky: rickbrannan.com
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Very good. This is what I was after.
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By the way, some English letters have changed over centuries of use. For example, a reprint of the First Edition of the Authorized Version has these Old Testament books:
- Efther
- Iob
- Pfalmes
- Prouerbes
- Ecclefiaftes
Note that the strange "f" you see in Esther, Psalmes and Ecclesiastes just looks a bit like "f" but is a form of "s" - we used to have these in Germany as well. Actually it was a bit like Greek, where you have in-word sigma and closing sigma. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Long_s - the "long s" never was an "f"
Have joy in the Lord!
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NewbieMick said:
By the way, some English letters have changed over centuries of use. For example, a reprint of the First Edition of the Authorized Version has these Old Testament books:
- Efther
- Iob
- Pfalmes
- Prouerbes
- Ecclefiaftes
Note that the strange "f" you see in Esther, Psalmes and Ecclesiastes just looks a bit like "f" but is a form of "s" - we used to have these in Germany as well. Actually it was a bit like Greek, where you have in-word sigma and closing sigma. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Long_s - the "long s" never was an "f"
Thanks, looking carefully at reprint can now see the long "s" letter form that lacks a little nib on right side. Also noticing i and y usage variances. For example, Psalms 150 has Praise and Prayse. Psalms 2:2 has Anoynted while Iob XXXVIII:39 has lyon (vis anointed and lion in modern English).
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Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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MJ. Smith said:
Thanks [8-|] appreciate insight about English spelling differences across the pond.
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πραΰτης: prautēs or praytēs?
Apologies for resurrecting such a long-dead thread, but it's on exactly the topic I'm trying to understand, so seemed the best place to post.
I'm trying to work out how to transliterate πραΰτης, which transliterate.com gives as prautēs for the SBL.
The notable point about this word is the diaeresis mark of the fourth letter, the upsilon. This means that it does not form a diphthong, and therefore my reading of the SBL guide is that it should therefore be transliterated as "y" not "u" - i.e., praytēs.
Can anyone shed light on this for me please? prautēs or praytēs?
Many thanks!
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Was this thread started by the infamous Mark Smith, that we have all come love and appreciate?
Sorry this does not address your request John. [:-*]
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Rick Brannan said:Bradley Grainger said:
its rules are here: http://www.viceregency.com/Translit.htm
Note that "υ" is transliterated as "y" except in the diphthongs αυ, ευ, ηυ, ου, υι where it is instead transliterated as "u".
And, if you're interested in transliterating your own unicode Greek words/strings, you can use http://transliterate.com/ which follows the same rules ("Society of Biblical Literature" output) but also gives some other options.
(note: transliterate.com is a Logos site)
http://transliterate.com/ shows πραΰτης
John Percival said:πραΰτης: prautēs or praytēs?
Untransliterate (g:prautēs or g:praytēs) in Logos & Verbum show same choices in drop-down selection list.
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