PBBs: First attempt at a list of which Bible datatypes support which verses

I've been working on writing a script which examines my Logos indexes in an attempt to determines which verses are supported by which datatypes. You can see an example for Genesis here:

http://wiki.logos.com/Mark_Barnes_Test

There are a couple of limitations that I'm working on, that are noted on the Wiki page. Is it useful? Does anyone have any comments or suggestions, either about the data or the way it's presented?

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steve clark

Interesting

i revisited the L4 API a while back when ya'll were trying to isolate which Bibles used different verse maps and saw possibilities there. It looks like you are now exploring them, very good!

Possibly it would be helpful to show just books which deviate from the standard Bible mapping (this could keep your table from being so wide). Or perhaps have a second section at the bottom which lists the books which use standard verse mapping.

It might also be beneficial to link to a CSV file in the wiki so others might pull in your info so that they can view it in a spreadsheet.

Dave Hooton

Is it useful?

Not sure. But if it helps determine the scheme used by a bible manuscript then the differences are more important than the similarities. Verse alignment could be very instructive:-

Bible BHS LXX

Gen 31:1-45 31:1-45 31:1-45

31:46-50 31:46-50 31:46-50**

31:51 31:51 31:48a

31:52-54 31:52-54 31:52-54

Gen 31:55 ----> 32:1 32:1

32:1 - 32 -----> 32:2 - 33 32:2 - 33

33:1-20 ------> 33:1-20 33:1-20

** Simplified alignment of LXX to others

Mark Barnes

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/288316#Comment_288316

Verse alignment could be very instructive

I can't do verse alignment using this method. I can only indicate whether a verse exists or not. To do verse alignment, you'd either have to reverse engineer the datatypes.dat file in the datatypes DLL (which I'm sure Logos wouldn't want me doing given their reluctance to publish the data), or it might just be possible using the .COM API - Steve might be able to comment on that.

then the differences are more important than the similarities

So, as Steve suggests, it would be more useful to ignore columns where there are no differences to the base?

Dave Hooton

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/288404#Comment_288404

I can't do verse alignment using this method. I can only indicate whether a verse exists or not. To do verse alignment, you'd either have to reverse engineer the datatypes.dat file in the datatypes DLL (which I'm sure Logos wouldn't want me doing given their reluctance to publish the data), or it might just be possible using the .COM API

Trying to align LXX Gen 31 was very taxing with linked Bibles! So any manual approach to the whole bible would be unworkable. If it can be done, it would be very instructive.

So, as Steve suggests, it would be more useful to ignore columns where there are no differences to the base?

Yes, we need only the differences.

steve clark

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/288404#Comment_288404

or it might just be possible using the .COM API - Steve might be able to comment on that.

That's where i got in my analysis. With the API we can see how many chapters/verses there are in each book (those in your library). But there is no useful way to distinguish which words belong to each verse. This is further complicated by the fact that many translations will be in a different language, not to mention original languages. So that is when i determined that the API was not suited for this task.

So your scripting method would provide the usefulness of defining a Bible's chapter/verse range for each book of each type.

Mark Barnes

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/288475#Comment_288475

With the API we can see how many chapters/verses there are in each book (those in your library). But there is no useful way to distinguish which words belong to each verse

Wouldn't it be possible to :

Create a layout with various Bibles using different datatypes linked together at Genesis 1:1.
Within a loop
- Move to the next verse (Gen 1:2, initially)
- Read the reference from each of the other panels in turn

Looking at the API docs, that looks relatively simple to write (he says, with no VB experience!), but it might be horribly slow. I could probably give you a list of all valid verse references for the bible datatype if you needed it.

But I'm happy to continue with my method, which as you say at least defines the range for each datatype.

steve clark

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/289063#Comment_289063

Create a layout

The API allows opening a book, but we have no control on where that book is opened. EDIT: L4 will also just navigate to a currently opened version of a book instead of creating a new instance of that book. So our control is extremely limited. i have asked for ability to know pane/position/size of books which would allow us to form a custom layout. But they have better things to do than add things for tweekers like me.

with various Bibles using different datatypes linked together at Genesis 1:1.

Data types showup as Bible or some other types (e.g. Harmonies, Bible Commentaries; whatever you see in the library when you click on TYPE in the heading). These are what we see when using Types in the API. EDIT: you can see that i use this in the mFav app that i wrote when selecting books that you want to add to a tab (those in my app).

We can send scripture references to an open book (providing that the book can navigate using scripture references). Or we can navigate other books which use Headwords by sending a headword.

But simply navigating a book does not ensure that the two books use the same division of the words for that verse in the Bible. And with different translations obviously the words will not be the same even in English translations (thus the need for the Text Comparison tool that we have). Then how would we know if part of one verse is broken between two other verses in the 2nd translation. This was done probably by hand at Logos. MJ had a good example a long time back which showed how a Catholic version of a Bible split the words across different verses than the western Bibles. i wish i could remember that post, but alas my memory is poor (especially since our God's memory is perfect and He never has to remember anything).

Looking at the API docs, that looks relatively simple to write (he says, with no VB experience!),

[:D][:D][:D]

But I'm happy to continue with my method, which as you say at least defines the range for each datatype.

Sounds good to me brother. As you are far more knowledgeable in verse mapping and Bibles than i.

Peace and Joy in our Lord to you brother!

Mark Barnes

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/289063#Comment_289063

I've now updated the page, with the following improvements:

It displays all Bible books, not just Genesis.
The data is more accurate. Previously my script counted the actual verses being used by Logos Bibles, now it counts the theoretical maximum instead.
Blank columns are removed.
Differences are picked out in a colour, making them easier to spot.

There following limitations are still being worked on:

Duplicate columns are not removed.
Only around 15% of datatypes are completed. It takes up to an hour to calculate each additional datatype, so it's likely to be several days before it's finished. (Thankfully I don't have to sit here while it does the calculations!)

http://wiki.logos.com/Mark_Barnes_Test

Dave Hooton

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/289823#Comment_289823

One additional book to include is Enoch (for lxx2, lxx2a, cap, gp, otp).

Mark Barnes

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/289834#Comment_289834

One additional book to include is Enoch (for lxx2, lxx2a, cap, gp, otp).

I think Enoch uses the Old Testament Pseudepigrapha datatype, rather than one of the Bible datatypes, but I'll check when I get to those datatypes you mention.

One I do need to add is Additions to Daniel, which appears in the BFC datatype.

Mark Barnes

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/289841#Comment_289841

I think Enoch uses the Old Testament Pseudepigrapha datatype, rather than one of the Bible datatypes, but I'll check when I get to those datatypes you mention.

We were both right. Enoch uses both Pseudepigrapha and one of the bible datatypes (either bible+cap or bible+gp). I've added it now, along with several other apocryphal and pseudepigraphal books that aren't in the default Bible datatype: Additions to Daniel, Plea for Deliverance, Apostrophe to Zion, Hymn to the Creator, Apostrophe to Judah, David’s Compositions, Eschatological Hymn, 1 Enoch, 4 Ezra, 2 Baruch.

My script now has a million verses in it's database, but it's still only 40% done. That's just the verses that it's found. To make sure that I don't miss any, it has checked for the existence of more than ten times that amount (11,152,410), which it's why it's so slow. But had it not done so, I wouldn't know (for example) that the Douay-Rheims has an extra verse in Joshua 4, or that the Dead Sea Scrolls have 155 Psalms.

Dave Hooton

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/290418#Comment_290418

We were both right. Enoch uses both Pseudepigrapha and one of the bible datatypes (either bible+cap or bible+gp).

If you type <enoch> or <1 enoch> in a Morph Search and then switch to Bible Search you will see the following (edited for clarity):-

<bible+lxx2 ~ Enoch>, <bible+cap ~ Enoch 1–3>, <bible+cap ~ Enoch 5–32>, <bible+cap ~ Enoch 89:42–49>, <bible+gp ~ 1 Enoch 1:1–5:6g>, <bible+gp ~ 1 Enoch 5:6i–32:6>, <bible+lxx2a ~ Enoch>, <bible+otp ~ 1 Enoch 1–3>, <bible+otp ~ 1 Enoch 5–32>, <bible+otp ~ 1 Enoch 89:42–49>

I know for sure it uses bible+lxx2 and bible+lxx2a datatypes as I have Swete's Old Testament in Greek.

Enoch / 1 Enoch was a late addition to Bible books -- it's internal name is bible.88.

Keep Smiling 4 Jesus :)

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/290461#Comment_290461

Enoch / 1 Enoch was a late addition to Bible books -- it's internal name is bible.88.

Can replicate bible+cap.88 reference for Enoch (up to 108 chapters). Also learned bible+cap has internal number 100 for IV Ezra. However, not know bible books for numbers 89 through 99.

Keep Smiling [:)]

Dave Hooton

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/291173#Comment_291173

Can replicate bible+cap.88 reference for Enoch (up to 108 chapters).

I included bible.88 in the wiki because it was in Swete's version of the Septuagint. "bible" books quickly become a minefield of Apocrypha/Pseudepigrapha books, so I feel it best to leave it at that (e.g. 4 Ezra is 2 Esdras or 4 Esdras elsewhere).

MJ. Smith

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/291194#Comment_291194

I tend to use the NRSV as the standard as it covers:

"narrower" Protestant
Anglican
Lutheran
Catholic
Byzantine Orthodox
Slavic Orthodox

basically the Copts are the only large group not covered.

Dave Hooton

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/291206#Comment_291206

I tend to use the NRSV as the standard as it covers:

"narrower" Protestant

Anglican

Lutheran

Catholic

Byzantine Orthodox

Slavic Orthodox

basically the Copts are the only large group not covered.

The first 87 defined by Logos include the NRSV books + Odes and Ps of Solomon (both in LXX and others) + Epistle to Laodiceans (in Biblia Sacra Vulgata).

Keep Smiling 4 Jesus :)

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/291237#Comment_291237

I tend to use the NRSV as the standard as it covers:

"narrower" Protestant

Anglican

Lutheran

Catholic

Byzantine Orthodox

Slavic Orthodox

basically the Copts are the only large group not covered.

The first 87 defined by Logos include the NRSV books + Odes and Ps of Solomon (both in LXX and others) + Epistle to Laodiceans (in Biblia Sacra Vulgata).

Wiki => Canonical Commentary Collections has first 87 books. Learned "Pseudepigrapha of the Old Testament." has bible+cap references for book 88 (Enoch) and book 100 (IV Ezra) along with book 57 (4 Maccabees) and book 59 (Psalms of Solomon). Other Pseudepigrapha chapters have pseud reference numbering (1 through 31).

Keep Smiling [:)]

MJ. Smith

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/291237#Comment_291237

Odes and Ps of Solomon (both in LXX and others) + Epistle to Laodiceans

I keep forgetting that the first two aren't in the NRSV. And we have to have the Laodiceans for the Germans[:D] I wish I knew why the Germans held on to it for so long.

Mark Barnes

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/291245#Comment_291245

Just to let you know that I haven't forgotten about this yet - but it's taken rather longer than I hoped. The latest version is available at http://wiki.logos.com/Bible_Verse_Mapping and currently covers 95 of the 102 Bible datatypes supported by Logos 4.5 (that's more than 2.5 million Bible verses!). The remaining datatypes shouldn't take too long now. I'm sure there's better ways of presenting the information (merging duplicate columns, particularly), but I'm afraid it will have to do.

NB.Mick

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/328991#Comment_328991

wow, lots of work.

One small remark: the wiki page seems to be called ... Maps instead of ...Mapping

Mark Barnes

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/328995#Comment_328995

Whoops, sorry. Here's the correct URL: http://wiki.logos.com/Bible_Verse_Maps

Mark Smith

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/329002#Comment_329002

Quite an effort, Mark. I doubt I will make use of it, but it certainly will help some folks.

Mark Barnes

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/329042#Comment_329042

This page is now finished, and as I've consolidated duplicate columns, is also easier and more interesting to read.