HEBREW MORPH SEARCH BUG: choosing a lemma from the suggested list
There is a serious problem in the morph searching in Logos, specifically Hebrew morph searches.
When I type in "lemma:" and begin typing a few hebrew characters (I searched for דבר ) Logos provides me with the normal drop down list and I choose the noun "word, matter, thing". It looks like this:
lemma:דָּבָר:1
The problem is that searching for this results in nothing.
I opened up my BHS and found an example of the word in question, then from the right-click menu I did a morph search on the lemma, which worked fine. It worked fine because Logos in that instance supplied the correct search line.
lemma:דָּבָר:1.N
I can make my peace with the colon after the 1 being different, as changing it to a period doesn't change anything. My problem is the ".N" How am I to know that needs to be in there !?! What does it even mean? And if it is necessary, shouldn't the drop-down list be providing it for me.
(personal vent: In a very strong program, I find the morph searching in Logos lacking. It needs work Logos. email me or post here if you want some specifics)
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The trouble continues. I assume this is the same for everybody (I'm on the latest version of Logos btw)
Try hitting the "@ sign for morph data. search for it as a noun, masculine, singular, absolute. lemma:דָּבָר:1.N@N?MSA" You'll get no hits.
Take the "N" right after the "@" sign and search again: lemma:דָּבָר:1.N@?MSA — now you'll get hits.
Next problem - my first hit is a masculine plural absolute.
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Hi Danny,
I am trying to replicate your issue. Could you please let me know which resource your are searching? Have you tried going to a verse you know has the lemma and start the morph search using the right mouse context menu? This will show you if you have a problem as to how you are typing the search.
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Danny Zacharias said:
When I type in "lemma:" and begin typing a few hebrew characters (I searched for דבר ) Logos provides me with the normal drop down list and I choose the noun "word, matter, thing". It looks like this:
lemma:דָּבָר:1
The problem is that searching for this results in nothing.
Apologies: can partially replicate. Started with דבר then choose lemma 1 from drop down menu, then found results in LHI:
Danny Zacharias said:I opened up my BHS and found an example of the word in question, then from the right-click menu I did a morph search on the lemma, which worked fine.
Curious about verse ?
Using Genesis 8:15, personally learned various BHS versions have variant lemma tagging:
Danny Zacharias said:I find the morph searching in Logos lacking. It needs work Logos.
Please elaborate what work would be worthwhile.
Keep Smiling [:)]
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Hi John. I'm searching the BHS with WIVU.
I attach a screenshot. What is in the field is what Logos provides for me in the drop-down menu. (btw, any lemma I search from the drop-down menu results in no hits)
Smiles,
I did a right-click search as mentioned from Gen 11:1. Your example from Gen 8.15 is the verbal form (the vowel-less option in the drop-down supplied list)
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Smiles,
Once we determine the issue, I'll pontificate on what Logos could improve :-)
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I can duplicate the issue. I know there are problems with WIVU and do not know when the resource will be updated. I find the AFAT works the best for Morph searches if you have it.
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John Fidel said:
I find the AFAT works the best for Morph searches if you have it.
Personally prefer Lexham Hebrew-English Interlinear (LHI) and Anderson-Forbes Analyzed Text (AFAT) for morph searching, which have the same morphological tagging as English Reverse Interlinear Bibles. Knowing Hebrew has a variety of homograph numbering for lemma's; prefer to start with right click on a tagged Hebrew word in a verse that should be included in search results.
Danny Zacharias said:Try hitting the "@ sign for morph data. search for it as a noun, masculine, singular, absolute. lemma:דָּבָר:1.N@N?MSA" You'll get no hits.
After right click on BHS/WIVU word in Genesis 11:1, then Morph Search for Lemma, typed @, then clicked Morph Search items:
Concur BHS/WIVU Morph Search with Singular Number returns 0 results.
By way of contrast, right clicked on LHI word in Genesis 11:1, then typed @ and clicked Morph Search items (hopefully comparable):
Noticed Andersen-Forbes Hebrew Morphology has more choices than WIVU. Also changed BHS/WIVU Morph Search to wildcard Number.
.Noticed BHS/WIVU tagging for lemma:דָּבָר:1.N is always plural for Masculine Absolute Nouns along with fewer results than lemma:דבר:5 in LHI and AFAT, which include singular and plural results.
Keep Smiling [:)]
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Thanks for the assistance. Frankly, I totally forgot about AFAT ! I tend to go to the "standard texts". I'm a little discouraged that it is not exactly kept up to pace with the in-house Hebrew Bible.
Time to pontificate on the shortcomings of morph search since someone asked:
- Hover-over morph details in the results window would make a morph search so much more useful.
- Ditto for the right-click menu.
- It is annoying that AF doesn't always use standard naming. Every intro Hebrew textbook in the world calls the noun state "Absolute" not "normal". AF also doesn't have some of the other normally taught rare stems (polel, hishtaphel, etc). But it has a bunch I've never heard of nor have I seen in any intro grammar (I've evaluated a lot as I teach intro Hebrew).
- The proximity search commands are conveniently tucked INTO THE WIKI !! How about being able to bring up proximity commands like morph data tags, with something like #
- The amount of proximity searches that are available in Logos are pretty limited. I'd like to see more added. Again, Accordance shines here.
- The analysis of search results is pretty poor. The search has so much data it can give to us, yet hitting the "graphs" button just gives me hit counts! Compare this to the info you can get after a morph search in Accordance—hits can be graphed by any of the morph data in the results.
- I find the morph search pretty slow. I don't mind the wait, as long as I have search results that I can and analyze better.
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Danny Zacharias said:Hover-over morph details in the results window would make a morph search so much more useful.
Ditto for the right-click menu.[Y] Pop-up and right click like what is available in a Bible resource would be appreciated.
Danny Zacharias said:It is annoying that AF doesn't always use standard naming. Every intro Hebrew textbook in the world calls the noun state "Absolute" not "normal". AF also doesn't have some of the other normally taught rare stems (polel, hishtaphel, etc). But it has a bunch I've never heard of nor have I seen in any intro grammar (I've evaluated a lot as I teach intro Hebrew).Searching for noun WITHIN 24 WORDS state in my Grammars collection found many results, including:
Now appreciate annoyance; appears Absolute = Normal.
Danny Zacharias said:The proximity search commands are conveniently tucked INTO THE WIKI !! How about being able to bring up proximity commands like morph data tags, with something like #[Y] Wonder about pop-up for logical and proximity operators ?
Danny Zacharias said:The amount of proximity searches that are available in Logos are pretty limited. I'd like to see more added.
Wiki has => http://wiki.logos.com/Search_HELP with proximity operators: ANDEQUALS, NOTEQUALS, BEFORE, AFTER, WITHIN, NEAR. Please elaborate about proximity search desires. For Hebrew word formation, which can have a variety of lemmas in one word, wonder about word builder prompter (that could generate appropriate Morph Search phrasing), possibly integrated with Shibboleth.
Danny Zacharias said:The analysis of search results is pretty poor. The search has so much data it can give to us, yet hitting the "graphs" button just gives me hit counts!
Concur Morph Search Analysis needs improvement; wish the one reference column was replaced by three: book, chapter, and verse. Alas, graph results is not an option for Morph Search Analysis => Is there an easy way to analyse or graph morph-search results?
Thankful Logos can export results to Excel for analysis.
Danny Zacharias said:I find the morph search pretty slow. I don't mind the wait, as long as I have search results that I can and analyze better.
[Y]
Keep Smiling [:)]
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John Fidel said:
I can duplicate the issue. I know there are problems with WIVU and do not know when the resource will be updated. I find the AFAT works the best for Morph searches if you have it.
I generally have excellent results with BHS 4.2. I generally reserve AFAT for when I want to paste some Hebrew into a message (assuming it's more than I care to type) since it doesn't have the cantillation which not every Hebrew font supports. I also find AFAT useful for the Eissfeldt coloring (though I had to laboriously replicate this from L3).
BTW: I can confirm that WIVU definitely seems to be the problem. Use something else if you have it.
george
gfsomselיְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן
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I just confirmed that these issues are still there in 4.6. I wonder if anyone at Logos has even filed a case for them?
Mac Pro (late 2013) OS 12.6.2
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I have passed these issue on to the correct departments.
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