Are there Pentecostal/Charismatic M.Div Users of Logos 4.5 ?

Having studied under the late J Rodman Williams and John Rea at CBN University and while there having the founders of Logos visit the campus, I am really rather surprised that there are so few books included in the Logos Library that are of the Full Gospel/Charismatic viewpoint. With such a major worldwide movement such as Pentecostal/Full Gospel having far more than 400 million adherents, I would think there would be more of a presence in the offerings of Logos.

Curious as to knowing whether there are those practicing a Pentecostal/Full Gospel Christianity using Logos 4.5 that participate on these forums ?

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Jerry M

I became Pentecostal/Full Gospel/Charismatic after receiving my M.Div degree. I have an interest in Systematic Theology so I bought Renewal Theology in paper, but also added my voice to wanting it in Logos. I have followed his articles online and even made a Personal Book of them. I have supplemented my library with Personal Books I have made from Pentecostal writings online, but would appreciate more of these in Logos. This is especially true since they have added the mobile apps and reading non-reference books is now more common. I expect that just as the desktop version of Logos has replaced the paper reference library of many, the mobile apps will replace the need for paper monographs. The point here is that the literary interests people have varies greatly, so Logos has their work cut out for them. I would add my voice to the clamor that Logos should not underestimate the size of their present and future Pentecostal customer base.

painfree

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/341175#Comment_341175

Jerry, I find your opening sentence very interesting. When I started CBNU we had a class called Holy Spirit Presence and Power and out of the class of students there was one fellow who was not Charismatic. Fast forward 10 years and in that same class there were 3 that were Charismatic.. Where did you get your MDiv from and how influential was J Rodman Williams systematic theology in your becoming Pentecostal/FG/C ?

Juanita

Curious as to knowing whether there are those practicing a Pentecostal/Full Gospel Christianity using Logos 4.5 that participate on these forums ?

I don't have a M. Div. but my husband and I are Charismatic, Pentecostal or Full Gospel; however you wish to characterize it. And we love to study the Bible.

Jerry M

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/341183#Comment_341183

I was raised Southern Baptist and went to seminary at Southwestern Baptist Theological Seminary in Fort Worth, Texas. Right in the heart of the Bible belt I became spiritually dry and went on a quest for God. I discovered J. Rodman Williams many years later as I was looking for any kind of theology books or commentaries written from the Pentecostal perspective.

Icarus38376

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/341185#Comment_341185

Hey Folks,

I know for a fact that some decion makers at Logos are against the Pentacostal movement (and its writers) and believes that it is harmful to Christianity. Why they don't know this about Catholicism i'll never understand. Anyway, although Logos claims to be just a publishing company with no soul, Logos does have its biases. Right or wrong, you guys didn't make the cut.

painfree

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/341192#Comment_341192

Well stated Peter and unfortunately I was sure given the wrong impression when the leaders of Logos visited CBNU in the 90's and promoted Logos 1. Who knew years later that they would become blinded to the unbiblical doctrines of Catholicism and at the same time avoid Full Gospel theology.

Robert J Smith

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/341199#Comment_341199

painfree, I am M-DIV graduate of SBTS in Fort Worth. I am Assemblies of God and went there as such. That is about as Pentecostal as it comes. But I have to tell you and JerryM that not all Penetcostals follow Renewal theology.I would classify myself as more of a "Reformed" Penetcostal. That said, I also have a great deal of interest in reading widely. So I too would like to see Full Gospel Theology included in Logos.

Graham Owen

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/341192#Comment_341192

I know for a fact that some decion makers at Logos are against the Pentacostal movement (and its writers) and believes that it is harmful to Christianity.

If this were true we would not have these:

http://www.logos.com/products/search?Christian+Group=Pentecostal

Icarus38376

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/341204#Comment_341204

If this were true we would not have these:

I know what I was told...unless you are calling me a liar, we should leave it at that.

Robert J Smith

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/341209#Comment_341209

Peter, I have to agree with Graham. But no one is calling you a liar here. You just may have poor information. Who told you this? And which Logos people are you referring to?

Graham Owen

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/341209#Comment_341209

I know what I was told...unless you are calling me a liar, we should leave it at that.

Would it make you a liar or the person who told you? In terms of "evidence" your statement is merely "hearsay".

Icarus38376

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/341213#Comment_341213

told you this? And which Logos people are you referring to?

It would not be appropriate to tell you who. But I can tell you this is first hand information. Not hearsay

Graham Owen

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/341216#Comment_341216

t would not be appropriate to tell you who. But I can tell you this is first hand information. Not heresay

hearsay (ˈhɪǝˌseɪ) n gossip; rumour

hearsay evidence n law evidence based on what has been reported to a witness by others rather than what he has himself observed or experienced (not generally admissible as evidence)

Collins English dictionary. 2006 (8th ed., Complete & unabridged ed.). Glasgow: HarperCollins.

Mitchell

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/341209#Comment_341209

I know what I was told...unless you are calling me a liar, we should leave it at that.

Really?

Icarus38376

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/341217#Comment_341217

gossip; rumour

Believe what you want.

Todd Phillips

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/341216#Comment_341216

told you this? And which Logos people are you referring to?

It would not be appropriate to tell you who. But I can tell you this is first hand information. Not hearsay

This seems completely irrelevant in light of the fact that Logos does produce Pentecostal resources. Besides, it's patently obvious that everyone has a bias, so discovering a bias should not be a shock to anyone.

Icarus38376

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/341231#Comment_341231

This seems completely irrelevant in light of the fact that Logos does produce Pentecostal resources

The original post was about the limited number and type of Pentacostal resources. That is what I was responding to.

Having a 2x4 in my inventory does not make me a Lumber yard.

Believe what you want.

Room4more

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/341231#Comment_341231

I will jump in here. I am Christadelphian, and find no resources that contend with our systemic theology or what we Believe to be Truth.

But there are many of us that use L4, some even have the Portfolio package.

Does this make the software provided any less useful as a thurough and productive Bible study package?

Icarus38376

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/341239#Comment_341239

find no resources that contend with our systemic theology or what we Believe to be Truth.

I suggested that Logos produce Christadelphian resources (see suggestion area).

painfree

I do not really understand how these forums work well enough to pose a question that the responses will be an answer to the question that is posed, namely..knowing whether there are others M. Div users practicing a Pentecostal/Full Gospel theology that use Logos 4.5

Perhaps another way of stating this would be.. If you have an M.Div degree and are Full Gospel/Pentecostal, do you use Logos 4.5? or simply, who in this forum is Pentecostal and has received their M. Div degree and REGULARLY uses Logos 4.5 and wants more Logos full gospel resources.

I really feel inadequate here but I am trying. [:D]

Graham Owen

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/341238#Comment_341238

Having a 2x4 in my inventory does not make me a Lumber yard.

But it does show that you do not have a bias against or aversion to wood products!

Logos do sell Pentecostal resources, all be it a limited number.

One reason that the numbers are limited is that many of the Pentecostal denominations have their own publishing departments and these do not currently have an agreement with Logos.

Robert J Smith

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/341231#Comment_341231

agreed, Todd. Thanks for keeping me on track.

Robert J Smith

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/341253#Comment_341253

I do use 4.5 regularly (every day) and I am penetcostal with an M-DIV degree. Your question was perfectly adequate, some of us just got off topic. That seems to happen a lot around here.

Icarus38376

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/341255#Comment_341255

But it does show that you do not have a bias against or aversion to wood products!

Or, I may keep this one 2x4 in my inventory so that people come into my store and buy other stuff. I may just keep the 2x4 around so folks don't think I am against wood products.

Room4more

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/341241#Comment_341241

find no resources that contend with our systemic theology or what we Believe to be Truth.

I suggested that Logos produce Christadelphian resources (see suggestion area).

May be I should rephrase my statement. there is one; Grant

but what can I say.....

Graham Owen

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/341253#Comment_341253

I do not really understand how these forums work well enough to pose a question that the responses will be an answer to the question that is posed,

Unfortunately we rarely miss out on the opportunity for a good debate based in a thread based on the question posed by the original poster.

But being serious for a moment, it looks like there are few or no users of the profile you seek here on the forums. I am not sure what percentage of Logos users are forum users and I am personally not aware of a forum frequented by M.Div users. I do know that my own denomination, when addressing areas relating to Pentecostal distinctives, has a bias towards materials published by our own publishing house and that these are not available in Logos (a situation that I would like to see change). For more general materials we use/recommend materials that would be broadly defined as Evangelical of the type readily available in Logos. We also tend to draw on older resources from a Holiness tradition that are also available.

From a personal perspective, the current perceived lack of Pentecostal and Charismatic resources is not a major issue. The works that are available are generally good ones and it helps that we also have a number of resources by Gordon Fee which are not actually tagged as Pentecostal so the number is actually higher than it seems.

There is no category for Charismatic on the Logos website but this is no real surprise as Charismatic is more of a cross Denominational movement than a Denomination and I would expect to find Charismatic authors represented in the various "Christian Groups" if I looked for them.

Are there any specific resources that you feel are missing?

Graham Owen

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/341262#Comment_341262

I may just keep the 2x4 around so folks don't think I am against wood products.

Or you may just keep changing the parameters of the argument in the mistaken belief that if you have had the last word you have won the debate. Or maybe that's what I'm doing. Or maybe you lost when the real evidence was posted that refuted your hearsay evidence. Or maybe, just maybe, you even argue with yourself to practice!

Edwin Bowden

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/341253#Comment_341253

I do not really understand how these forums work well enough to pose a question that the responses will be an answer to the question that is posed, namely..knowing whether there are others M. Div users practicing a Pentecostal/Full Gospel theology that use Logos 4.5

Perhaps another way of stating this would be.. If you have an M.Div degree and are Full Gospel/Pentecostal, do you use Logos 4.5? or simply, who in this forum is Pentecostal and has received their M. Div degree and REGULARLY uses Logos 4.5 and wants more Logos full gospel resources.

I really feel inadequate here but I am trying.

Welcome to the Forums.

Your question was posted on the Logos 4 Windows section of the Forum. There may be users that do not see this because they are Mac users.

General topics are best located on the GENERAL forum where all users are more likely to see them.

Logos has been publishing some titles in the last year from Gospel Publishing House (Assembly of God). Several Gordon Fee titles are avaialble on Logos.

Room4more

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/341269#Comment_341269

I may just keep the 2x4 around so folks don't think I am against wood products.

Or you may just keep changing the parameters of the argument in the mistaken belief that if you have had the last word you have won the debate. Or maybe that's what I'm doing. Or maybe you lost when the real evidence was posted that refuted your hearsay evidence. Or maybe, just maybe, you even argue with yourself to practice!

Graham,

It seems that now you are just attempting to pick a fight[this post and the previous]. This is highly rejectable on the forums, just be careful where you take this. It could get you removed.

We all have our differences, but this is about the software not what you want to push as what you believe. His post was honest, and in a searchable manner - so just let it go.......

If you can recommend other places he may acquire resources then by all means do so.......

painfree

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/341267#Comment_341267

Absolutely although I may be a bit prejudiced having had a small part in the writing of it.. "Renewal Theology: Systematic Theology from a Charismatic Perspective " by Dr. J. Rodman Williams

Carl Sanders

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/341310#Comment_341310

Though not personally Pentecostal, I agree we could use some more resources from that perspective. I've bought most of the available ones and have supported suggestions to add the J. Rodman Williams theology specifically. I'd love to have it in Logos! Of course I have a long list of other resources like that, too.

Rich DeRuiter

I am really rather surprised that there are so few books included in the Logos Library that are of the Full Gospel/Charismatic viewpoint.

I'm intentionally skipping over the side-track discussions here.

One of the reasons that there are so few books from a Pentecostal perspective is that Pentecostals themselves have been a bit skeptical of academic-level Biblical research. Thankfully, that is changing. However, the vast majority of books coming from a charismatic/Pentecostal perspective are not research books (systematic theologies, Bible encyclopedias, commentaries, etc.). I'm thinking of authors like Bill Johnson, Graham Cooke, Jim Goll, Dutch Sheets, Jack Deere, etc. I have many of those kinds of books in my personal "dead tree" library, but I'm not sure how useful they'd be in Logos. They'd be great in Vyrso, though!

On the plus side there are some really good charismatic/Pentecostal resources in Logos, as some have already mentioned.(I have many, if not most of them, BTW.)

I am aware that there are more Pentecostals writing more research oriented material (Gordon Fee is an early and excellent example). I applaud this trend and want more!

If you have other specific suggestions that would help fill out Logos' offerings, I encourage you to put those suggestions in the Suggestions forum and contact both Logos and the publisher of the books you'd like to see in Logos.

Ralph Mauch

I would think there would be more of a presence in the offerings of Logos.

Getting back to the subject, Jack Hayford has been on Logos from the beginning (I think I have all his works), so there was an early presence in logos. One of the problems with Pentecaostal teaching, is that it hasn't been written in many cases, until of late, if you look at when Williams came out, it was about 1996, and the publisher was Zondervan. That publisher is just now coming onboard with Logos, so maybe your chances of getting that have increased.

I haven't seen or noticed that Logos was discriminating on that front, and highly doubt it.

Mike Childs

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/341192#Comment_341192

I know for a fact that some decion makers at Logos are against the Pentacostal movement (and its writers) and believes that it is harmful to Christianity

Brother, how do you know that for a fact? What I know for a fact is that Christians of all persuasions should not make such a charge, and back it up with no facts. Also, there was no need for you to imply that Catholicism is harmful to Christianity. You can disagree with someone's doctrine and still treat them with respect.

Just my opinion but your post was most direspectful. As someone who is NOT against the Pentecostal movement, I don't think your post is a very effective witness for it.

Danny Baskin

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/341506#Comment_341506

This thread needs to go away.

Mike Childs

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/341209#Comment_341209

I know what I was told

I am not calling you a liar Peter. But you "know for a fact" because someone told you? I don't know anything for a fact because someone tells me something. That was the first painful lesson that I learned as a pastor many years ago.

I just did not appreciate the tone of accusation in your post.

Icarus38376

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/341508#Comment_341508

But you "know for a fact" because someone told you?

I will not reveal my source. Catholicism is dangerous to Christianity. You can believe what you want.

painfree

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/341510#Comment_341510

Peter, Interesting you would say that as years ago I was visiting when I was off duty, an Italian Assemblies of God and if I ever any that were against the Church of Rome it was those who were former members of it and had trusted in Jesus and Him alone for salvation and had become actve members in the IAOG.

Icarus38376

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/341527#Comment_341527

were former members of it and had trusted in Jesus and Him alone for salvation

Those with eyes can see....Those with ears can hear....My sheep hear my voice....Amen!

Jerry M

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/341529#Comment_341529

Those with eyes can see.

My mother-in-law will go to the Adoration of the Eucharist and weep in God's presence. Her tears become her language of devotion to Christ. I am not Catholic but I have eyes to see. There are two sides to what you are saying.

BillS

In answer to the subject question, I'm claiming I'm a Christian... denominationally, I guess that puts me in the Assembly of catholic MethodoLutheroPresbyBaptiCostal Bible churches of Christ, even if I happen to be a PC (USA) pastor.[:P][:D]

Friedrich

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/341529#Comment_341529

i add to the voice of those who would like more charismatic as well as Pentecostal resources. I keep wanting more Fee, for sure.

I also would like more Anabaptist books, as one forum member has called for for years. Now Logos has a nice collection. Logos keeps adding and keeps growing.

Thanks for adding these and other collections, Logos. We look forward to what you will continue to add.

As for the OP, I am not one for whom all the criteria fits, but I support your search.and hope more identify themselves to you. I do agree that posting under "General" might yield more results.

I'd also like more books that show where charismatic and "non-charismatic" intersect, such as Kraft's "Christianity with Power", "Word and Power Church" (Doug Banister), Straight Talk on Spiritual Power (Bill Hull). Sorry for being a bit off topic, painfree, but hope it is seen as providing a wider net of support.

Icarus38376

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/341532#Comment_341532

Her tears become her language of devotion to Christ

Muslims weep before Allah...Weeping before a false christ does not make you right with God. One needs to be born-again. When they are born-again, they see evil for evil and run from blatant works salvation, idolatry and blasphemy.

John T Reagan

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/341267#Comment_341267

Graham, I searched my L4 library for Gordon Fee and came up with nothing. Maybe I'm not doing the search right? So far, my search for Pentecostal/Charismatic works -- especially commentaries -- is still coming up dry.

Philana Crouch

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/373635#Comment_373635

Graham, I searched my L4 library for Gordon Fee and came up with nothing. Maybe I'm not doing the search right? So far, my search for Pentecostal/Charismatic works -- especially commentaries -- is still coming up dry.

Your library may not have any unless you have purchased books by Gordon Fee...you would need to go to www.logos.com to find Gordon Fee books.

Robert I

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/373647#Comment_373647

I only have an undergraduate degree in Biblical and Theological Studies but would love to get my M.Div. at some point. I grew up Episcopalian but had a dramatic conversion at age 17 when I visited a non-denominational church. The pastor (a 20 year Southern Baptist who had a 7 point sermon for the cessation of the gifts of the Holy Spirit only to have a Jack Deere experience when a Charismatic friend visited him and asked if he could pray for him) taught very Biblically and soundly thanks to his extensive theological training that complimented his experience (much like Gordon Fee). I was fortunate to have a very sound theological foundation in approaching the Word of God. Also, I went off to Gordon College only 1 year after my conversion, so that exposed me a bit early in my walk to more theological training. Gordon Fee's son, Mark Fee, was also a Vineyard pastor for a time who was very theologically sound. My current pastor (Calvary Chapel) is friends with Mark Fee and is very theologically sound.

I would love to see works from folks like Jack Deere, John White, John Wimber, and others who have taught at some respected seminaries as visiting professors. I would also like to see more of C. Peter Wagner and the more extensive works of Gordon Fee. I know know that J. I. Packer coined the phrase 3rd Waver for those not cessationists but not quite Pentecostal or Charismatic. It is funny how the terms can have an unknown connotation in them. In the South or the West, Charismatic is simply a non-cessationists. Pentecostals are simply a flavor of Charismatics; however, after moving up to the East Coast, these terms are almost dirty words in some circles... even circles that are regularly considered Charismatic like Calvary Chapel. I am sure that this comes from abuses within the church and errant theology. I just hope we do not take a pendulum swing and create bad theology (and errant) that is just in opposition to error and fails to hold what Scripture says is the Christian experience as the standard. Just because there are health-wealth preachers who abused faith does not mean we should take an anti-faith position. On the contrary, faith is surprisingly huge topic that Jesus had a lot to say. I do not want to recreate the NT version of the Mishnah in an attitude that results from fear (and took the Law further than it should ever have been taken).

I find myself a strong non-cessationist, most likely a Third Waver, and very appreciative of Gordon Fee's commentary on 1st Corinthians, Chuck Smith's book, "Living Water," and Jack Hayford's book, "Spirit-Filled." I very much believe the Word of God is alive and powerful today as it was at the time that Christ walked with the Apostles and that He did truly call us to follow Him and walk the in power of the Holy Spirit as He did then, though God, yet emptying Himself in perfect obedience. I say all that to express my desire to see more scholarship from this side.

...sorry for the over sharing, but I wanted to bring what I like to think might be a balanced view in my humble opinion.

Friedrich

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/373694#Comment_373694

I only have an undergraduate degree in Biblical and Theological Studies but would love to get my M.Div. at some point. I grew up Episcopalian but had a dramatic conversion at age 17 when I visited a non-denominational church. The pastor (a 20 year Southern Baptist who had a 7 point sermon for the cessation of the gifts of the Holy Spirit only to have a Jack Deere experience when a Charismatic friend visited him and asked if he could pray for him) taught very Biblically and soundly thanks to his extensive theological training that complimented his experience (much like Gordon Fee). I was fortunate to have a very sound theological foundation in approaching the Word of God. Also, I went off to Gordon College only 1 year after my conversion, so that exposed me a bit early in my walk to more theological training. Gordon Fee's son, Mark Fee, was also a Vineyard pastor for a time who was very theologically sound. My current pastor (Calvary Chapel) is friends with Mark Fee and is very theologically sound.

I would love to see works from folks like Jack Deere, John White, John Wimber, and others who have taught at some respected seminaries as visiting professors. I would also like to see more of C. Peter Wagner and the more extensive works of Gordon Fee. I know know that J. I. Packer coined the phrase 3rd Waver for those not cessationists but not quite Pentecostal or Charismatic. It is funny how the terms can have an unknown connotation in them. In the South or the West, Charismatic is simply a non-cessationists. Pentecostals are simply a flavor of Charismatics; however, after moving up to the East Coast, these terms are almost dirty words in some circles... even circles that are regularly considered Charismatic like Calvary Chapel. I am sure that this comes from abuses within the church and errant theology. I just hope we do not take a pendulum swing and create bad theology (and errant) that is just in opposition to error and fails to hold what Scripture says is the Christian experience as the standard. Just because there are health-wealth preachers who abused faith does not mean we should take an anti-faith position. On the contrary, faith is surprisingly huge topic that Jesus had a lot to say. I do not want to recreate the NT version of the Mishnah in an attitude that results from fear (and took the Law further than it should ever have been taken).

I find myself a strong non-cessationist, most likely a Third Waver, and very appreciative of Gordon Fee's commentary on 1st Corinthians, Chuck Smith's book, "Living Water," and Jack Hayford's book, "Spirit-Filled." I very much believe the Word of God is alive and powerful today as it was at the time that Christ walked with the Apostles and that He did truly call us to follow Him and walk the in power of the Holy Spirit as He did then, though God, yet emptying Himself in perfect obedience. I say all that to express my desire to see more scholarship from this side.

...sorry for the over sharing, but I wanted to bring what I like to think might be a balanced view in my humble opinion.

you have an interesting background/story. Blessings on your continued walk with Jesus.

Dan

Robert I

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/373716#Comment_373716

Blessings on your continued walk with Jesus.

Dan

Humbly... thank you and amen to that, sir.

Ed Blough

As I posted in another thread I think the problem is more the lack of material than prejudice on Logos' part.

Stanley Horton has written a number of excellent books and they are offered by Logos as is a number of Jack Hayford's works. However the Pentecostal community is lacking prolific writers. Most of the books that are produced by Pentecostal authors are Christian living and Christian fiction rather than research resources.

The one Book I would like to see Logos get is the Full Life Study Bible written by Donald Stamp and published by Zondervan (as much as I dislike Zondervan). It is now called the Life in the Spirit Bible and/or the "Fire Bible". It has been produced under all three names. It is truly an excellent Pentecostal Study Bible, in fact I consider it the best.

BillS

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/373891#Comment_373891

Part of the problem is definitions... as a Presbyterian pastor, I won't fit anyone's definition of pentecostal/charismatic, though I think of myself as more Presbycostal than frozen chosen. [:D] (just trying to lighten things up. lol)