Anyone using Logos 4 on a ssd?

Although I love Logos 4 overall, the speed (or lack thereof) of the program is an ongoing frustration. In the early Betas , a need for optimization was always listed as a known issue ("Many application areas are unoptimized") - From Beta 1 until now I have yet to see any real improvement in speed on any of my three systems.

I am still hopeful that there will be improvements in this department (if not, I think this will hurt the public reception of the program more that features that are not yet implemented, but we know are coming).

But, if what we have now is the way performance is going to remain - would a fast ssd help the overall feel of the program?

And has anyone tried Logos 4 with a good ssd? If so, what areas of improvement did you see?

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Robert Pavich

I use it on a 60GB SSD.

It's faster but NOT HOLY MOLY! faster...

Boot times are in the less than 10 seconds...and Logos and other things are snappy

BUT...

I paid 550.00 for that snappiness...

Not quite sure it was worth that...

I'm going to be taking delivery of a new laptop with a 7500 rpm drive and I'm wondering if I'm going to swap the SSD or not...hmmm

Rich DeRuiter

And has anyone tried Logos 4 with a good ssd?

IMHO SSD's aren't quite ready for prime time. There are some issues with multiple writes to SSD's that suggest a usable-life somewhat less than HDS's. If you plan to upgrade your computer every couple of years anyway, it shouldn't be a problem. And SSD's do promise to deliver significant speed increases (if properly built), and significantly lower power requirements.

I think we're seeing the beginning of the end for HDD's, but I personally don't think we're quite there yet.

Robert Pavich

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/34262#Comment_34262

that's the other thing I forgot to mention (richard did) that it extends battery life in a lap top...

Greg Gray

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/34268#Comment_34268

Thanks for the replies.

Robert, a few questions for you if you don't mind taking the time (If you do mind no big deal):

1. When you are working with an interlinear with the information tab open, how long does it take for the information to be displayed on average? (my average is 6 seconds)

2. How long does it take from when you click on the logos 4 icon until the program is opened if you have the home page disabled and no resources opened on your last shut down? (nine is 12 seconds)

3. When you click on a word in a bible with interlinear - how long does it take for both the word in the Bible and the interlinear to be highlighted? (about 1 second plus or minus for me)

4. When you right click on a word in a bible with interlinear - how long does it take for the menu to to finish loading? (for me it is between 3 and 9 seconds depending on the word)

5. If you use the default passage guide with all of the headings expanded - how long would it take to have all of the information displayed for Titus 2:1? (mine is 33 seconds)

The lags that bother me the most (highlighting a word in bible and interlinear, information display, right-click menu speed), probably would not be as effected by the ssd I am guessing.

Thanks.

Robert Pavich

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/34313#Comment_34313

Greg,

My times for a lot of that stuff are just slightly faster but it doesn't look 560.00 faster [:D]

Greg Gray

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/34313#Comment_34313

Good to know.

Just for comparison sake I will post the same list with the results of the same tests (were applicable) with Version 3. I know I have more resources in version 4, but it still gives an idea.

1. When you are working with an interlinear with the information tab open, how long does it take for the information to be displayed on average? (my average is 6 seconds in V4 - instant in V3)

2. How long does it take from when you click on the logos 4 icon until the program is opened if you have the home page disabled and no resources opened on your last shut down? (mine is 12 seconds in V4 - 3 seconds in V3)

3. When you click on a word in a bible with interlinear - how long does it take for both the word in the Bible and the interlinear to be highlighted? (about 1 second plus or minus for me (not applicable for version 3))

4. When you right click on a word in a bible with interlinear - how long does it take for the menu to to finish loading? (for me it is between 3 and 9 seconds depending on the word in V4 - Instant in V3)

5. If you use the default passage guide with all of the headings expanded - how long would it take to have all of the information displayed for Titus 2:1? (mine is 33 seconds in V4 - 6 seconds in V3)

I probably will still get a ssd at some point, but if there is no real improvement in Logos 4 - I probably won't be in so much of a rush. Hopefully the logos team will find ways to make the program much more responsive.

I have noticed that the talk of missing features is dropping off, but the complaints of sluggish performance continues (maybe even growing). Maybe this will encourage the team to make speed a bit more of a priority as this affects all of us.

toughski

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/34313#Comment_34313

it appears that speed issues with L4 fall in 3 general categories: computing speed, display speed and storage retrieval speed. Most of the clicking/highlighting issues have to do with the videocard, and since most laptops and some computers come with an integrated videocard, improvement may not be possible. My question is: what is so different between L3 and L4 in displaying the same resources that creates a significant visible lag in the latter?My guess is the new layout system, which is very fluid and ajustable, bat carrying a steep performance price. Can we have a setting to turn OFF extra bells and whistles on the graphics side that bog things down in L4?

I believe increasing RAM would also be better for speeding up clicking response times

SSDs came down in price very much from 6 months ago ($400 for 128GB). they also ironed out a lot of lag issues that are controller specific. as a side note, the best controller on the market as of the time of this writing appears to be Indilinx, used by Patriot Torqx. Getting an SSD would help substantially with indexing and searches.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/49865#Comment_49865

I went from 2 to 4 GD of RAM with only very minor performance improvements in Logos 4. The current price of SSDs would put me in the doghouse so I'll have to wait on that upgrade. I've largely overcome my objections to the new layout although I think the lack of customization is a mistake. Overall, my concern is that new users will walk away from Logos with a bad taste in their mouths. My Logos 3 experience was great; can't say the same for Logos 4. I would rather see the sluggish performance addressed at the expense of some of the missing features but that's just me!

Gregg

Greg Gray

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/49900#Comment_49900

I would rather see the sluggish performance addressed at the expense of some of the missing features but that's just me!

I agree (although I am looking forward to being able to copy and past search results some day:-)

Just an update. I did get a ssd. It is amazing how fast these drives are.

The good news is all my programs load extremely fast, the computer boots in 20 seconds, and battery life is improved on my ultra-portable.

The bad news is Logos4 doesn't really benefit from the ssd. Logos3 now loads in half the time as before - and things like the passage guide are much faster, but on Logos4 the load time is virtually the same (I think 1 or 2 second faster on average). It takes longer for Logos4 to load with my default layout than it does for windows 7 to load!

I have added Ram - gone to win7 64bit - added a ssd and all of these have helped only slightly if at all with the speed of Logos4.

The two things that have drastically improved speed are:

1. Going to 4.0aB2. This has made a big difference for me. There are still some issues to be improved, but the program is much more responsive and predictable.

2. Not using the NKJV. For some reason the NKJV uses dramatically more cpu power. If I uses several tabs with the NKJV Logos4 starts to really slow down - switch to to a different version with interlinear and everything is relatively snappy.

The good news in this for me is that my initial suspicions were correct - the slowness of the program is not the fault of my hardware, but the coding in logos4, and it seams that they are making real progress in speeding things up.

My remaining speed issues are:

1. clicking on a word in a bible with interlinear should instantly highlight it.

2. Switching between tabs should be instant (For me with lots of tabs (and no NKJV) there is still a slight lag of less than half a second). This is greatly improved in Beta2 but not quite there.

3. The information tool needs an overhaul like the "cited by" tool (that is amazingly fast and useful now)

4. The Bible word study "translation" circle needs some real work - it causes repeatable crashes and system hangs (these bugs have been comfirmed by logos and hopefully will be resolved soon)

5. It would be nice if startup time of the program was improved. This isn't a real big deal, but it still would be nice.

The way things have been improving I am quite hopeful that most of the above speed issues will be resolved in the near future. With every new release this program becomes more enjoyable to use.

Keith Larson

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/34313#Comment_34313

The lags that bother me the most (highlighting a word in bible and interlinear, information display, right-click menu speed), probably would not be as effected by the ssd I am guessing.

I as posted several days ago, a good video card as an amazing effect on some of these:

Highlighting a word in a bible and interlinear: less than a second to just over a second.

Information display: 2-4 seconds

Right-click menu speed: 1-2 seconds (without information window open), twice as long with it open

A video card does not make as much a different in load time or in PG time because both of these actions are HDD dependent. My times were only a second or two faster than yours. I am becoming more and more convinced working with my three computers that for a "feel" of snappyness a video card is very important. L4 is a very graphically demanding program and if it cannot display the information fast enough it "feels" slow.

Related to this is the amount of graphical data that has to be updated. Having the information widow open noticable slows down things. I don't even use the on screen interlinear, just the right click menu to work with the underlaying Greek and Hebrew.

Greg Gray

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/49965#Comment_49965

I as posted several days ago, a good video card as an amazing effect on some of these:

For many of us on laptops upgrading the video card is not an option.

[quote]Highlighting a word in a bible and interlinear: less than a second to just over a second.

This is the same as mine with my humble intel 4500MHD on-board video card.

To me (a none programmer) this is not a graphical issue. For example if you left click and hold to select text - the highlighting appears instantly - so the video card is capable of displaying the information - it is what ever is going on connecting the English text with the interlinear that is the issue. Also, my cpu hardly gets a hit through this process so it is not a lack of cpu power. To me, however this is implemented in logos4 is an inefficient way.

[quote]Information display: 2-4 seconds

Mine is 3 - 6 to completely populate. This is not bad for my SU3500 cpu, but the information tool is doing more work than it needs to and much more than I want it to. The new cited by tool (after I set my preferences) takes under two seconds to display all info (with no annoying spinning graphic:-). If we were able to set preferences in the information tool (as has been discussed in other threads), we should be able to get to 1 - 2 seconds (near instant on faster systems).

[quote]-click menu speed: 1-2 seconds (without information window open), twice as long with it open

Mine is 2-4 seconds - not bad for the laptop I'm using it on.

[quote]A video card does not make as much a different in load time or in PG time because both of these actions are HDD dependent.

My ssd with over 200mb/s reads has not effected my PG times - it does quite drastically improve PG in Logos 3, but not in Logos 4. Also, I have noticed that the loading of pictures in Logos 4 is not improved by the ssd where it is in all my other programs (pictures load instantly). I would think there is some tweaking left to do.

I have no question that the displaying of information and smoothness of scrolling etc. would be improved by a better video card. Also having a non-onboard video card would be much better - I just think some of the issues users are complaining about can be fixed with more efficient code - as the recent improvements have proven.

Rich DeRuiter

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/50014#Comment_50014

To me (a none programmer) this is not a graphical issue. For example if you left click and hold to select text - the highlighting appears instantly - so the video card is capable of displaying the information - it is what ever is going on connecting the English text with the interlinear that is the issue. Also, my cpu hardly gets a hit through this process so it is not a lack of cpu power. To me, however this is implemented in logos4 is an inefficient way.

Logos is using a programming environment provided by Microsoft called WPF. This is a GUI that creates it's own virtual OS. But it is a GUI, which means it's graphical. Remember, MS is moving toward a more graphically intensive environment in Vista and Win7, and a lot more is being pushed through the graphics card than before. Some operations apparently are less graphically intense than others, and this may be a program optimization issue, or it may be the nature of the programming environment. There are heavy CPU, RAM and Video operations as all this happens. Sometimes this will be seen more in one area than another.

The upside is a very visually appealing interface. Notice the almost absent window borders. This is nice, and gets a few more pixels width of text for every line. The visual appeal, for me at least, draws me more into Bible study.

The downside, is that WPF "operates very close to the chip" according to Bob. This means that the opportunity for bottle-necks to surface that never surfaced before is high. It also means that any marginal chip incompatibility can be exposed, and there is also a chance that for some driver incompatibility.

My theory about degraded functionality for some in L4: Given Microsoft's track record of problems with chip sets and driver incompatibility with every major OS release, it's not completely surprising that some of these issues seem to be surfacing here. It's probable that many chip manufacturers don't even know about these incompatibilities, or don't consider them serious enough to provide a driver update to resolve them. At this stage it's almost impossible to know which chip-sets or drivers are the problem. Unless there were a way to collect data at the chip-set level, as well as driver versions, and other issues (like how some chip-sets work with other chip-sets), there is no real way to even diagnose the problem.

A second part of my theory has to do with background tasks: Since WPF is a new programming environment, and since there are so many potential background tasks, and combinations of background tasks a user can be running, and since there are so many potential services, and combinations of services, and combinations of services with background tasks, that any one of them, or particular combinations of them could create issues that degrade L4 performance. Some have noticed major improvements by turning some of these off. This suggests an area to investigate. But, once again, unless one had enough data, diagnosing the problem could be nearly impossible.

Improving the code may resolve many of these issues, and has resolved (or at least mitigated) some. But it may not be able to resolve all of them - especially since the number of variables and combination of variables is astronomical.

What we need is a kind of "Dr. House" for these issues - I'd want a much nicer version, of course, than the irascible character on TV. Right now I'm not sure we even know the right questions to ask. And my confidence in my own theories is quite low (I'm not a computer tech, or a programmer, just an computer aficionado, who is curious about issues like this). But I just don't have a better set of theories right now that explains to me all the information I'm seeing in these forums.

Wow! That was a much longer explanation than I intended to give.

Bottom line: Better hardware (all around) is one of the ways to get better performance out of L4, but it's not the only issue. The rest is a bit of a mystery at this point.

toughski

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/50021#Comment_50021

for a very detailed article on SSD technology and choosing the right drive please see

http://tinyurl.com/cf4gud