Earliest Christian Tomb—or is it?

http://www.eurasiareview.com/28022012-archaeological-evidence-of-christianity-dating-to-time-of-jesus-found/

We'll see how this holds up. It may be a case of someone doing their archaeology with a bible in one hand and and a spade in the other. I'm particularly offput by Dr. James Tabor's association with this since he, as I recall, was also associated with the Talpiot Tomb (also known as the "Jesus Family Tomb") purporting to find the burial place of Christ. Time, and peer review, will tell.

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DMB

Can't say yea/ney on Tabor, but I get nervous when NT images are mentioned without ruling out 2nd Temple literature.

I've been reading my Targum collection (which is good), and 'bones' relative to a resurrection are mentioned (almost more so than the NT strangely enough). But the appearance of 'ossuary' and then the sudden disappearance sure looks like a clue, relative to where the resurrection was supposed to occur.

George Somsel

First response from the American Schools of Oriental Research (ASOR)

http://asorblog.org/

Matthew C Jones

We'll see how this holds up.

Dr Tabor's statement in the article is a humorous Catch-22. “If anyone had claimed to find either a statement about resurrection or a
Jonah image in a Jewish tomb of this period I would have said
impossible — until now,” Tabor said. “Our team was in a kind of ecstatic
disbelief, but the evidence was clearly before our eyes, causing us to
revise our prior assumptions.” If I am to accept his expertise which is undoubtedly much greater than my knowledge, I must accept his own admission he was either dogmatically wrong in his previous views or he is currently wrong in his estimation of the new find.

Much as I like the new discovery and want to agree with his interpretation of it, I think finding Jonah on an ossuary piques interest in the anti-image point but not much more. Could Dr. Tabor's first opinion have been his correct one? He did call his views "assumptions."

Score one more point for my caution against accepting everything the scholars say. It changes from day to day. I think I will reject all modern scholarship in favor of the next century's more correct scholars. [6]

Kilroy

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/343189#Comment_343189

Score one more point for my caution against accepting everything the scholars say. It changes from day to day. I think I will reject all modern scholarship in favor of the next century's more correct scholars.

I'm still betting on the fence post.

EmileB

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/343409#Comment_343409

Thanks for the links, George. Very helpful. I usually try to be kinder in my assessments, but this "sensational" discovery is really rubbish (just like the claims concerning the previous Talpiot tomb discovery). Rollston's response on the ASOR blog is a good basis to get a grasp of the issues. It isn't so much a case of "the bible in one hand and the spade in the other", as that of seeing what you have already predetermined yourself to see, despite overwhelming evidence to the contrary. Even a rudimentary knowledge of biblical (or any branch of) archaeology, epigraphy, the New Testament, or Second Temple Judaism would be sufficient to refute these claims... something I would expect any college junior or senior to be able to do easily. I want to believe in the good intentions of Tabor and Jacobovici, but that is becoming increasingly difficult. I've never found anything from Jacobovici to be anything more than ungrounded, illogical fantasy for sensationalist purposes (such as his series, "The Naked Archaeologist"... aptly named, as it is bare of logic and any real archaeological or biblical knowledge). It really seems that the producers behind these "finds" are relying upon the gullibility of their viewers/readers for the sake of their own profit. And the last is their only conclusion that I would, sadly, deem to be warranted.

DMB

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/343506#Comment_343506

Emile, I agree. But a couple years back, maybe, one of the channels had a 'debate' / discussion, between Tabor, Dever, and several others. At the time, I think the James family grave had just been located (joking). But anyway, Tabor seemed to be flip-floppy, pointing out some of the details in the NT account didn't add up. Dever was on the defensive side (NT) but didn't step out too far.

Obviously the usual human happiness with wealth and fame (good or bad) drives these things. But the NT details do leave one wondering 'huh'? The one for me is that after Mary reports a just-executed-and-dead-3-days leader missing, only 1 or 2 of the followers go to check it out. And then confirming indeed the guy's body is gone .... head back home for lunch. Even more surprising is they don't go get the family.

So I can see how 'conspiracy' theories get going and then get fed by the least little bit of information (man eating fish!!).

RGP

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/343556#Comment_343556

Hello DMB,

I am not sure of the import of your post, but to describe Jesus the Son of God as a "guy" does suggest a grave defect in your understanding of Gods Revelation of Himself in His Son. Do you really view Jesus of Nazereth as just some guy? does He not mean more to you than that?

On the mount of transfiguration Peter made the mistake of linking Jesus with Moses and Elijah as some kind of ordinary guy, or just some other prophet but of course we see that God the Father is very jealous for the honour of His Son when He said this is my beloved Son in whom I am well pleased hear you Him, He is unique and infinitely above every other man, would'nt you agree ? the Day is fast approaching when all will honour the Son even as they honour the Father.

I know the forum guidelines and do not want to debate this issue I just cannot bear to see on this forum those who do not believe or at least cast doubt upon the Word of God pressing their views on the rest of us, it does not contribute to peace.

Robert.

Brother Mark

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/343758#Comment_343758

I just cannot bear to see on this forum those who do not believe or at least cast doubt upon the Word of God pressing their views on the rest of us, it does not contribute to peace.

[Y]

George Somsel

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/343758#Comment_343758

I am not sure of the import of your post, but to describe Jesus the Son of God as a "guy" does suggest a grave defect in your understanding of Gods Revelation of Himself in His Son. Do you really view Jesus of Nazereth as just some guy? does He not mean more to you than that?

I don't know how to love him.
What to do, how to move him.
I've been changed, yes really changed.
In these past few days, when I've seen myself,
I seem like someone else.
I don't know how to take this.
I don't see why he moves me.
He's a man. He's just a man.
And I've had so many men before,
In very many ways,
He's just one more.

RGP

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/343769#Comment_343769

Well you are just a superstar George,

First I was not responding to you but to DMB, may I ask why you felt the need to respond to me?

Just so the world knows George could you please tell us PLAINLY who you think Jesus is?

Robert.

Brother Mark

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/343791#Comment_343791

Just so the world knows George could you please tell us PLAINLY who you think Jesus is?

Pfft! George obviously believes that Jesus is exactly Who He said He is. [;)] George does, however, love to spin everyone up on occasion.

George Somsel

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/343791#Comment_343791

Just so the world knows George could you please tell us PLAINLY who you think Jesus is?

I COULD, but why should I? Don't try to start something.

DMB

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/343758#Comment_343758

A la contrare, RGP. Avoiding a theological discussion, if you use your Logos software to look at the verse that preceded the two disciples' decision to return to their friends, the text provides the reason. I was only speaking to Tabor's arguments concerning a literal reading of the text. I might also add, that a careful reading of the gospels demonstrates many instances where the authors intentionally introduced questioning concerning Jesus; that did not demonstrate their lack of belief. The last few verses of Matthew as Jesus prepared to leave are the most instructive.

RGP

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/343806#Comment_343806

George,

I do not want to start anything! I was'nt even addressing you in my post! I have only found out where that song you quoted comes from and all I wanted to know was why you quoted it what was your motive? I just wanted to give you a chance to distance yourself from the blasphemous import of that song that is all, for surely your view of Jesus has a scriptural foundation?

Robert.

RGP

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/343808#Comment_343808

DMB,

Are you suggesting that Matthew, Mark, Luke and John had questions and doubts and were not sure about who Jesus is I ask because I am not sure about what you meant when you said that "the authors intentionally introduced questioning concerning Jesus"

Robert.

George Somsel

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/343839#Comment_343839

DMB,

Are you suggesting that Matthew, Mark, Luke and John had questions and doubts and were not sure about who Jesus is I ask because I am not sure about what you meant when you said that "the authors intentionally introduced questioning concerning Jesus"

Robert.

Give it some thought. Perhaps it will come to you.

Matthew C Jones

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/343758#Comment_343758

I know the forum guidelines and do not want to debate this issue I just cannot bear to see on this forum those who do not believe or at least cast doubt upon the Word of God pressing their views on the rest of us, it does not contribute to peace.

Robert, The forum guidelines are there because there are many, many different camps and opinions of who Jesus is. Even during Jesus ministry there were enough disagreements abounding that Jesus asked Peter "Who do you say that I am?" Asking forum posters to start defining beliefs in minutiae will not contribute to peace either.

My understanding of the Bible causes me distress when I encounter others who do not see the same things that are so clear to me. But I can only pray for them and trust God to reward those who are seeking Him.

RGP

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/343850#Comment_343850

ST,

I find your contributions to the forum always very helpful and you are exactly right in what you say.

Yet I see almost daily those who give out opinions publicly in this forum who call into question Gods Word and who take away from the Glory of our Saviour and nothing is said to them why not? or is it only those who have conservative and may I say biblical views who are pulled up?

As for George I think that you should address his behaviour on this thread, on two occasions I addressed my comments to DMB and George felt the need to respond to me I did not ask him anything, he in one of his responses quotes a blasphemous song obviously to provoke the situation, so why do you or the other MVPs not give him some kindly advice also, he surely needs it!

Robert.

George Somsel

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/343865#Comment_343865

As for George I think that you should address his behaviour on this thread, on two occasions I addressed my comments to DMB and George felt the need to respond to me I did not ask him anything, he in one of his responses quotes a blasphemous song obviously to provoke the situation, so why do you or the other MVPs not give him some kindly advice also, he surely needs it!

Let me give you a little kindly advice. If you wish to have a discussion with only one person then you should email them privately. Don't expect that others are not going to become involved in a forum discussion.

RGP

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/343874#Comment_343874

Good idea George! I see your point,

Well if you are willing we could continue to further explore some of the issues that have been brought up privately.

my email is rpat AT hushmail DOT COM

Robert.

Matthew C Jones

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/343865#Comment_343865

I find your contributions to the forum always very helpful and you are exactly right in what you say.

I appreciate your comments but my guess is it is very quiet at my fan club meetings. [:D] I truly believe I have ruffled almost as many feathers as George has. Speaking of George;.....The first time I encountered George the verbal exchange was not pretty. I have grown to appreciate him a lot since then and can say if I were sailing through the Bermuda Triangle, I would want George Somsel at the capstan. Little shakes him.

The MVPs are not really responsible for policing the forums. There is very little we can do to change anything outside of appealing to reason (and that doesn't always work.) George is more reasonable than most "lively" posters. If you talk privately with him I think you will agree with my assessment.

I thank you for your personal zeal for the Bible. Rest peacefully knowing God can preserve His word and it won't return to Him void.

Jack Caviness

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/343985#Comment_343985

I would want George Somsel at the capstan.

"Capstan"? Are you weighing {pulling up} the anchor in the middle of the Bermuda Triangle? [8-|]

I have grown to appreciate him a lot

Must agree with you there [Y]

RGP

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/343985#Comment_343985

Thank you ST and God bless.

Matthew C Jones

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/344049#Comment_344049

I would want George Somsel at the capstan.
"Capstan"? Are you weighing {pulling up} the anchor in the middle of the Bermuda Triangle?

Well the saying you can't teach an old dog (me) new tricks is not 100% true. It just takes an older dog (a real Sea Dog like you, Jack [;)]) I will tell you where I got this portion of my mis-education.

When I was just a wee little lad I lived on Miami Beach and loved the ocean. All my favorite Bible stories were the ones in the boats or near water. My mother would tuck me in bed every night and help me say my prayers. When I got a little too big to "tuck in," I was reminded to say my bedtime prayers by a little wall hanging with a glow-in-the-dark cross and a picture similar to this: My VBS teacher who gave it to me told me that "steering wheel" on the ship is called a capstan. All my life I have called that wheel a capstan. When I googled capstan this morning, one article even said it is manned by unskilled crew members. I certainly did not intend to say George Somsel is unskilled. I meant my statement as a compliment. [:$]

Are you weighing {pulling up} the anchor in the middle of the Bermuda Triangle?

To answer this question: I would probably be crazy enough to do something like that. I'd love to enter the America's cup with George and Art Bell on my boat or take a Windjammer barefoot cruise. (Their brochure promised me I can man the capstan all month long.)

If I had the New Century Dictionary in Logos I ight have learned my error earlier. Thanks for edumacating me. [:P] So, is this a "ship's wheel?:

Was I right calling it a "steering wheel" when I was 6 years old? Where do they get those VBS teachers anyway?

Jack Caviness

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/344074#Comment_344074

Was I right calling it a "steering wheel" when I was 6 years old?

While it is indeed a "steering wheel", it was usually called "the helm". The Mac OS Dictionary says, "a tiller or wheel and any associated equipment for steering a ship or boat". When I served on destroyers, the secondary station for controlling the rudder was called "after steering".

Kilroy

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/344074#Comment_344074

(Their brochure promised me I can man the capstan all month long.)

It's similar to a land lubber's fence post.

Schezic

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/344049#Comment_344049

Jack;

Please check the artist's rendering. Is the line not shown wrapped in the wrong direction?

Jack Caviness

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/344108#Comment_344108

Jack;

Please check the artist's rendering. Is the line not shown wrapped in the wrong direction?

Very sharp eyes Schezic. Would probably rip a few teeth off that ratchet bringing up the anchor—or whatever is on the other end of the rope—not to mention a hernia or two [:D] What do I know, I was in the gun director [8-|]

Harbey Santiago

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/343769#Comment_343769

I am not sure of the import of your post, but to describe Jesus the Son of God as a "guy" does suggest a grave defect in your understanding of Gods Revelation of Himself in His Son. Do you really view Jesus of Nazereth as just some guy? does He not mean more to you than that?

I don't know how to love him.
What to do, how to move him.
I've been changed, yes really changed.
In these past few days, when I've seen myself,
I seem like someone else.
I don't know how to take this.
I don't see why he moves me.
He's a man. He's just a man.
And I've had so many men before,
In very many ways,
He's just one more.

Men that brings memories! Many years ago I was part of a theter company wich produced Jesus Christ Super Star. Some of the fondest memories I have are fron this production. Could you believe I was able to sing that song on key? Good times...Good times.

"Viva Cristo Rey!!"

Deacon Harbey Santiago

Archdiocese of Baltimore

Silent Sam

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/344256#Comment_344256

Jack;

Please check the artist's rendering. Is the line not shown wrapped in the wrong direction?

Very sharp eyes Schezic. Would probably rip a few teeth off that ratchet bringing up the anchor—or whatever is on the other end of the rope—not to mention a hernia or two What do I know, I was in the gun director

[^o)] HHHMMMmmm~~~ [^o)]