I feel a little misled

George Somsel said:

So, speak up, but be specific.

by all means speak up. But speak up again in 3 weeks. Right now Logos is really trying to listen but there is a WHOLE lot to hear.

JohnKaess said:

2.  Printing? Printing?  Who i  the world thought that printing was optional or not needed?  I don't care what I do in Logos, if I can't print it or smart tag or caopy/paste it into Word, its worthless!!!  and NONE of those "features" are available in Logos 4!

I use Logos every day. I use it since 1996. It is my bread and butter. However I have never used printing option. Please, don't be so sure your way of seeing things is the only one. I do copy and paste all the time to both One Note or to MS Word. I do not see any difficulty with that. I don't even print my sermon notes any more, I preach and teach from my laptop. I print only when I do weddings and funerals :-)

Logos 4 is a powerful engine with a great potential. It is very wise, I think, to have a clean powerful engine and add the features customers feel they need the most, not all the tweaking stuff 1% of users would possibly use. IMHO Logos did very good decision and I really appreciate their bold innovative approach. I believe Logos 4 is a major break through in Bible Study Software, combining the powerful tools with a very simple looking and well thought UI. Good enough for both a scholar and a pastor who knows only how to open his laptop and press go...

Be patient John. You will see Logos grow as months go. And, by the way, who said you are not able to use your Platinum stuff in Logos 3? I do... I just downloaded books I really like from the logos.com and they work perfect.

KevinJones said:

 I guess it won't do any good to go "Israel" and start grumbling.

I'll have to remember that phrase.

It reminded me of one of my favorite quotes.

John R. W. Stott said "Grumbling--Israel's besetting sin--is serious because it is a sign of unbelief." (Baptism and Fullness of the Holy Spirit, IVP)

KevinJones said:

I guess it won't do any good to go "Israel"

John Fugh, Jr. said:

L4 is eye-candy.  It has a lot of neat things, but it has no engine. . . I am griping about critical "engine" things that are missing.

The fact that printing isn't there proves that it isn't an essential feature. Logos made choices on what features would make the first release based on the statistics of how often they were used. If these were so critical, why don't people ever used them other than you? I can't say that I've printed anything more than a couple dozen times -- over the past five years.

John Fugh, Jr. said:

Also, being a Bible Study program that emphasizes the greek and hebrew...i am unable to type in the original language.

As for typing in Greek and Hebrew:

http://www.logos.com/support/downloads/keyboards

George mentioned this well before you even post this statement. Your other option would be to go into the Region & Language dialogue in Window's Control Panel and set it up yourself. Windows also comes with the national Greek keyboard. It's been there since you first turned on your computer. The people who actually work hard in the languages would have already had these installed anyway because they use their Greek & Hebrew for more than simply typing in lemmas for searches.

John Fugh, Jr. said:

With all due respect, just because you
haven't printed anything in the past five years does not mean that it
is not useful.

I didn't say it wasn't useful -- I said it wasn't used
-- which is how features were chosen for the initial release - did you
notice that L3 collected anonymous statistics? Yeah, those helped
prioritize features.

That's selective reading on your part -- or probably intentional ignoring, but either way, it doesn't help anyone.

What you need more than printing is patience -- particularly since it's already been stated that printing will come in time. Repeating yourself won't make it come faster.

And by the way, you're welcome about the language keyboards -- enjoy typing in Greek again.

I didn't intent to sound hostile. If that came across, then I sincerely apologize for it.

The aimed for tone was supposed to be not very emotional in either direction.  I guess I didn't do a very good job. I think your posts tonight have been the straw that broke the camel's back. There's been a lot more negative reaction than ever could have anticipated with this release. It has left me more than just a little perplexed. I suppose that came out at you more than I wanted it to. And I apologize for that.

Chris Roberts said:

Calm down a bit.

Just did.

Chris Roberts said:

I'm sure I'm not the only one.

So in a sense then, it's our fault that printing didn't make it -- I had one computer with statistics off and one with it on, I think.

Chris Roberts said:

Logos has not ignored printing. Logos is working on printing. I am very pleased with Logos 4 and am content to wait and see how work on printing proceeds. But printing is something I do a lot and will appreciate when it is back in place.

YES.

When I first looked at the demo for version 4 I remember thinking how cool.  However, except for the folks who beta tested (and may or may not have then been given a copy of the software with no charge) several points seem significant to point out.  I base my opinion on information I happened to find digging in to the forums and it reflects where I am at in considering this major paradigm shift of your business approach.

1. There is a very apparent disconnect between customer experience/expectation and what was provided.  As I follow the conversation over the last week, the decision was made to discontinue printing on the basis of stats received electronically.  Did any one connect the number of subscribed liscenses to the number of stats you are getting? Was a survery done? What made the company think that changing the engine added any value to the product, or that that value was what the most of us were looking for?

2.  There is apparently a big a disconnect between the sales arm and the tech architecture.  Using printing again as an example, the sales demo praises the new printing functionality, which doesnt even exist. I didnt go back and look at it but the demo mentions printing withot volunteering printing doesnt even exist.   Now, I gave myself about a week to gauge my response but in marketing we have a name for that and it isnt a pretty one.

For the first time I am very disappointed in the company that stands behind this package I use daily and have added to since the initial purchase.  However, the corporate lack of cohesive leadership into version 4 is disheartening.  The tech architecture is rather disconnected from teh actual user experience, and the sales demo claims features that dont exist.  I come home exhausted from work, sometimes plug in my oxygen or rest my eyes with retinpathy, and then connect to God's Word.  I can zoom as much as I need to with the current package (Scholars edition).  Version 3 has been a life/soul savor for me allowing me to lead a couple online study group over the last 3 years.   I hate to think I have to start questioning the obviously high-road principles that have led the company to producing this superb a product (v3).

Dan Fugett

DanFugett said:

When I first looked at the demo for version 4 I remember thinking how cool.  However, except for the folks who beta tested (and may or may not have then been given a copy of the software with no charge) several points seem significant to point out.  I base my opinion on information I happened to find digging in to the forums and it reflects where I am at in considering this major paradigm shift of your business approach.

You were already informed that data was collected by anonymous submission from users.  This is found in "Tools | Options | General" and the "Statistics" button.  I have mine set to supply this data. 

I am not particularly pleased with the current state of notes in L4, but it was stated that improvements in this area are slated to be made just as it has been stated that printing is one of the items scheduled.  While I accepted the answer and have remained silent regarding it and am awaiting improvements while continuing to us L3, you apparently do not have the grace to do this.  Frankly, I'm getting rather tired of hearing you moan an groan about this subject.  Use L3 for your printing and wait for the improvements.  If the improvements fail to appear in a reasonable time then you may have cause for complaint.  In the meantime, I quote the immortal words of Archie Bunker, "Stifle."

George...

As always...

We love you buddy.

Randy Hartman said:

But judging from his Avatar his beard could use a trim...

What!  I trimmed it about 3300 yrs ago.  What more should it need?

Remember:  "Ye shall not round the corners of your heads, neither shalt thou mar the corners of thy beard."

Dan, just wondering if "the vendor of this software is the only opinion" you care to hear, why you post on a PUBLIC forum where the name of the game is interaction and response? 

George, while not being very good looking, is a very respected member of this forum!

I agree... I just downloaded the "4 Engine" just to get the feel without the expense and I am also frustrated the the layout and feel. I do understand that there is a learning curve. However, Logos could have expressed the fact that 4 would have a rather "out of the box" steep learning curve.  Don't get me wrong, I love to learn. Yet, my comfort level with 3 is almost thoughtless and tweaked to my liking. Now, not sure where to begin with this. Just aimlessly clicking here and there and it seems to take up more RAM and CPU resources as well... Still wrestling 4, not giving up....

Win Vista/3gig/ AMD 64 Turion

~Dave

Hi Dan & David,

Most (if not all) of us who beta tested felt pretty much the way you seem to... there were lots of areas of initial discomfort, compared to L3 where we felt VERY proficient. Even worse, to really appreciate its power, L4 required us to change the way we work (& even the way we think).

In addition, while we did receive a free "crossgrade" to the  equivalent / current package we already owned, please note that ALL of us are existing Logos owners--most of us with sizable investments.

In other words, we have lots of skin in the game, too, as customers.

About the only difference I can see between our frustrations is:
a) we've had a couple of months to work through them;
b) we've seen how responsive Logos has been in the couple of months to address the concerns we voiced; and
c) we've had enough play-time in the software to BEGIN to appreciate the new capabilities it offers.

If in any way we've offered offense, for one, I'm truly sorry. Here's hoping you're able to receive graciously the UNCOMPENSATED help offered by those who've gone a little farther than we have on the L4 trail. They're doing this because they truly want to help us, not because they're compensated in any way. And most have day jobs...

Many blessings to you!

Bill

I think at this point, enough time has passed that a few things are very clear:  Logos has made a major change in their operating system.  It is a fantastic product.  But it is an unfinished product.  A little bit more thought was needed in instructing us all in what to expect before taking the plunge into L4.  The video does not cut it.  It does not tell us how much free space is required on a machine before trying to switch. That is basic information.  Richard on another post mentioned 12 GB.  I really wish I had been informed before attempting to install L4.  So much disappointment that many have could have been avoided just by having descent instructions informing the user what to expect realistically.  In this, LOGOS messed up. 

In the world of PR, there are two ways to move forward:  the first is to deny a problem and defend the company's actions.  It appears to me, that is the way LOGOS has chosen.  The second way is to admit mistakes and correct them, and go over and above the call of duty to return confidence to the customer.  Two case studies come to mind that demonstrate both options:  The Exxon Valdez crisis and the Tylenol Crisis. 

I still see no clear instructions on the L4 web site (learn more) except the video.  I still see no FAQ page from logos (enough time has passed that this should be a priority).  It seems to me, many will formulate their opinions after Kevin Purcell and others write independent reviews. 

I am still holding out hope (being very patient) but only because of my investment in Logos.  The update destroyed my computer (to which I have yet to recover).  I still remember the one thing that kept so many returning to LOGOS time and time again:  Bob P's honesty and openness with us.  Sometimes I wonder who behind the scenes really was pushing this new shift in their operating system. 

Mark

Here's what Bob had to say in the beta forum. It is worth repeating here, I think:

Chris

Bob Pritchett said:

The leading Bible software products available today
(including Logos 3.x) are powerful tools designed 10-20 years ago. I believe
that all the top commercial Bible software companies were started in a day when
every single user owned a screwdriver for opening their computer case, and most
of us had flipped DIP switches or moved jumpers to install something.

Our customers were "pastor geeks." Our software
was designed for people who liked technology, were comfortable with it, and
wanted to have fine-level control over it.

Now that wasn't everyone who wanted to study the Bible, but
it was pretty close to everyone who wanted to study the Bible and owned a
computer.

Today everybody has a computer, and lots of them are not
computer-geeks and don't want to become them. The majority of
"everyone" has something else they want to do -- from Bible study to
photography to cooking to water skiing -- and a computer is just one more tool
in their life for doing whatever it is they want to do. They just want it to
work.

(There are "geek" minorities in every area of interest,
and many of us move across the spectrum over time. In software I've been moving
from geek to user. I used to disassemble software. Now I just want it to work.
In cooking I'm going the other way: I used to microwave plastic food, now I
hand grind spices.)

As computer ownership has changed from being a reliable
indicator of computer-geek status to the equivalent of owning a toaster our
customer base has changed. There's interest in our tool for Bible study from
people who don't have any interest in technology. And we want to serve people
who want to do Bible study -- all of them. Not just the people whose interests are
both the Bible and computers.

To serve them well, we need to get the technology out of the
way.

(There are still open questions of what to simplify, what is
and isn't more powerful, what's easy, what's hard, what settings are and aren't
needed. We won't get that perfect in the first pass, or ever, but we'll keep
adjusting it based on feedback and experience.)

The Mac vs. Windows argument is a great example of what's
happening in computers. The Mac has been around since 1984, and long derided by
"real computer users" as a silly toy that didn't have the power and
control we needed. And it was (and remains, in some ways) true. People
literally open up their PC's and modify them with hardware, add-on cards, special
drivers, connectors, software, etc. Nobody took a soldering iron to a Mac, but many
PC users of the 80's made their own circuit boards. Because if you were
spending $3,000 on a computer, in 1985 money, you had "serious computer
needs."

20 years later the Mac is an overnight success. :-) It's
winning the mind share, it's converting people, and people are praising how
"it just works."

Sure, it's gotten a little more flexible and powerful, but
for the most part the criticisms justly leveled against it in 1984 are still
true. It's a closed system that simplifies things. You're constrained to one hardware
vendor. What's changed isn't the Mac, it's the world. Computers aren't huge
investments by people who really need or like technology. They're toasters;
common household appliances used by everyone.

I know people who like to tinker with cars. Most of them learned
to do that because they had to; the cars required the tinkering to keep
working. Even I was pretty familiar with what was under the hood of my first
car.

Today I drive a car that recognizes my key in my pocket and
opens with a touch, starts with a button, and turns on the headlights and
windshield wipers automatically. I never open the hood. It alerts me when it
needs an oil change. The only way it could be better for me is if it radioed
the dealer about the oil change, sending its GPS location and historical
pattern information suggesting where it would likely be parked for 2+ hours so
the dealer could come and change it in the parking lot while I'm at work. Or,
better yet, if they made an engine that never needed an oil change. Or oil.

Maybe you change your own oil. Maybe you like changing the
oil. Maybe you go out of your way to have an older car you can tune and tinker
without a special programming chip. More power to you; I get it. I don't have
to hand grind spices, I just want to.

But you are no longer the majority of car buyers, and I am
not the majority of spice consumers. People want them pre-ground. Or just
cooked into the packaged plastic food. :-)

I'm not asking you to change, or to stop loving total
control over the technology. I'm just explaining what's happening, and how it's
affecting us. I would encourage you to step back and think about it though. Sure,
you're used to changing your oil. You like the hands-on involvement and the
ritual of it. You did it with your dad or your son.

But really, wouldn't an oil-free car be nicer for everyone?
Does the next generation want to mess with it?

At Logos we spend approximately $1 million per year on customer
service and technical support. The majority of that expense goes to supporting activation,
installation on more than one machine, and "where are my book files / my
book files are out of date".

So in Logos 4 we tried to eliminate as much as we could of
all those things. We're replacing activation with an email address and password,
even if you rarely/never use email. We're simplifying multiple machine
installation by simply synching all your settings and data. We're avoiding
missing/old resource files by having the software automatically download
missing and updated resources and manage them for you.

Are some people going to hate it? Yes. Some people refuse to
have an email address. Some people want to manage every file on their system.
Some people use filters to control every byte in and out of their machine to
the Internet. Some people open up Logos 3 XML data files and hand-hack the
contents.

And maybe that's you. If so, I've got two questions: Do you
think it's the majority? (I'm guessing not. Well, not guessing. I've got the
data, the feedback, and the frustrated calls to tech support on my side.)

And secondly, do you really care? Or are you turning
something we did because we had to into something we want because we've always
done it that way?

(I used to be forever deleting files and pruning my
directory tree because my hard drive ran out of space and I had to do backup on
floppy disks, and I needed to organize files to find them. My kids save
everything, throw it all in one directory, and use search when they want to
find it. We don't use half the hard drive, and they get bigger each year.)

We're always stepping up to higher levels of abstraction.
You want to control where your files go, but do you really? Do you know that
the operating system breaks your 1 meg file into lots of chunks and scatters
them around the hard drive? Do you care? I used to. I used to run checkdisk,
undelete, and defragmenters all the time. I worried about contiguous chunks and
wrote software that was disk-sector-size aware. Now I let the OS deal with it,
though I still organize my folders.

What if you bought a new computer at BestBuy, took it home,
turned it on, and after entering your name and password found that it brought up
every application, photo, video, and music file from your old computer. Would
that be cool?

Well, it'd be scary, to you and me. How did it work? How did
it know? Did it store it on the server or use wifi to take it off the old
machine? Is it secure? etc. But what about our kids? Would they get nostalgic
for a null-modem cable and manually moving every file between systems? Would
they worry about whether moving an application directory brought over the
settings and registry keys?

Or would they just think "well of course, it should just
work, and it did."

With all that said, I know we need to make it work. We need
your feedback to know what's a good streamlining and where we need to leave
some user control. It's clear we can't assume your C: drive has enough space;
but I don't think that means we need to bring back the Location Manager report
and tell you file sizes and version numbers.

And we need to respect the fact that some people want to
tinker with their car, and some people want to "reveal codes" in
WordPerfect, and some people want to write JavaScript macros on their Logos
custom toolbars.

That's why you can buy and keep an old car, and that's why
we very intentionally did not make Logos 4 replace Logos 3. You can keep Logos
3, and every feature that worked there is still there, just as it was. We're
even ensuring it keeps running on Windows 7, etc.

Logos 4 isn't a mandatory replacement, and it doesn't take
away anything you have invested in. It's an optional new product that works
with the content you've invested in. I hope you'll like it, and I hope you'll
help us make it better. But if not, I hope you'll still realize that it has
value for a new, different user, and that, correctly done, it can help even
more people get into better Bible study.

(Last analogy: digital cameras. Early on they didn't offer
the power and flexibility of analog cameras. But they took photography from an
intentional activity that required expertise to something people do all the
time -- off cell phones! And as they improve they're offering even better
customization and power. But the funny thing is, people are caring for that
power less and less. Did you really want to mess with the exposure? Yes? Okay.
But what if the camera picked for you? What if it guessed, but then backed
itself up by taking every photo simultaneously at 15 exposure settings and letting
you pick the best result anytime later? Isn't that better? For some experienced
photographers, even that will probably never beat having "control".
But for most people? Simplicity backed up by power....)

Bill,

Your post was somewhat encouraging, partially minimizes my frustration level with L4.   I too have been using Logos products for many years.  When V3 came out I was thoroughly satisfied with the finished product.  Not so much this time.  I agree with several others who have posted on this issue.  There seems to be significant "bad press" about this release.  What is sorely needed, in my opinion are two things from Logos:

1.  A projection of what issues are currently being addressed.

2. Version 3 vs Logos4 - a clear comparison guire on a very granular level

I believe  the degree of bad press would be greatly reduced if Logos were to publish the first list in the support page, and the second list on the sales page for L4.

I welcome replies as long as they are constructive.

Allen

MarkSwaim said:

Again, nice post.  And I agree with Bob.  But to me, this is not the issue.  The frustrations with L4 probably fall into only a few categories:

A.  The user who does not like the new style

B.  The user who simply is annoyed...really annoyed that they were not informed what would happen when they began to upgrade to L4

C.  The user who is afraid that what he/she paid for in the past will be good for a few more windows operating systems before being so outdated, the library is no longer any use without updating to the new style

You cant do anything about user A.  You can provide an answer for user C.  But for user B, the only thing you can do, is apologize and correct the problem by adding a page on the L4 website informing the user of L3, exactly what is going to happen when they switch to L4, what to expect, how much space is needed to upgrade and how much time is going to be needed to make the installation and indexing complete, as well as pointing them in the direction of a FAQ page...and a quick tutorial (or user guide) that will help them make the switch.

Each company on planet earth, during a crisis time, has to make the choice of how to respond to user B.

I agree with your point on B.

I also feel this and posted it in a different thread:

I do agree that Logos has not communicated the lack of
features well/adequately/at all in many cases. That's a mistake they've
made.

Okay they made a mistake. That's water under the bridge. I
think everyone has heard that they've done that poorly. Can I say, move
on, nicely?

With respect to those who feel that it all had to be in L4.0 or it should never have been put out, the balance Bob felt was important was
to consider releasing the product as is and letting people take
advantage of the new features already implemented (while still able to
use L3 for those not) or just wait until it was all done. Either way,
he argued, you won't have the feature that isn't yet there until its
there - In other words, if you can't wait for sentence diagramming
until Q2 2010, it would not come faster if they delayed the launch of
L4 until it was ready, it would still be Q2 2010 -- only you'd have
nothing that L4 does have until then. He said, (paraphrased) if you
want to wait until that certain feature is added, wait, no one is
forcing you to move out of L3 or into L4.

So, I'm interested in a
VW clean diesel, but I'm also unwilling to buy a new car. So, I can
wait until the new ones become available on the used car market and in
the meantime keep running my Caravan -- it is my choice. But for those
who have no car (no Logos) he wants to get it out there so they can get
on board with the new and add features as they are developed. He's
taking a risk. But not forcing anyone to do anything.

If you can't live without an L3 feature, don't.

If you really don't like L4 ask for your money back, wait until
Q3 2010 or whenever the features you want are finished, and buy in then
-- probably at a higher price point -- that's your prerogative. I'll
wait for my Jetta diesel, you wait for L4.

That's my point of view.

Chris

MarkSwaim said:

Chris Elford said:

Okay they made a mistake. That's water under the bridge. I
think everyone has heard that they've done that poorly. Can I say, move
on, nicely?

Unfortunately,
it is not yet water under the bridge.  Everyone has not heard that they
have done poorly.  Only people on this forum have heard it.  I would
hope that the client base for logos is much larger than this forum. 
The problems many experienced in upgrading to L4 will continue unless
Logos corrects the problem of information.

The issue is not about
what was or was not included. It is about information.  How many more
computers will be destroyed for the simple reason that Logos has not
corrected the problem of informing the customer how much space or time
is required to install?  How many calls and emails will go to Logos for
the simple reason that there is no FAQ page or manual to help guide
them through the product?

My posts are written to encourage Logos
to make simple corrections that they still have time to make...not in
L4, but in the information that is needed by the customer to
intelligently make the decision to upgrade now, or wait...or to help
the customer understand how to use the new program.

When I said "everyone" I meant everyone at Logos. They are reading everything posted. They have heard it. Whether they do what you want in response, you'll have to wait and see.

Chris

steveclark said:

I am very grateful and thankful to all the beta users and Logos employees for their assistance!!! Let me say it again Thank You all for your help! I hope that Logos continues to prosper now and in the future.

And so am I.  These threads (at least my posts) are meant to be constructive criticism.  I know Logos has a lot on their plate right now.  And they continue to impress.  They listen, and respond.  And I hope they always will, far into the future.

JerryWDavid said:

I feel totally ripped off by Logos because they just dropped the ball on their promise to make fully functional the original MAC platform.  Money down the drain indeed!!!

I too am not real happy with Logos anymore.  Just a lot of talk
and little to show for it.  Maybe in a several months or even a
year from now there will be a working stable platform for MAC that will
be finally working.?

JWD Just a question: are you referring to the Alpha version?

Chris Elford said:

I see that Logos has changed its info page on L4. There is some of the info that you are asking for there now. Not all, but some. That's improvement. That shows they are listening. http://www.logos.com/logos4

Yes, I saw it today as well.  I KNOW it is going to help many people.  Keep on adding when you can, LOGOS.  It is one very important step to improving the PR and Customer service

I called customer support today with my list of missing or compromised features, and spend 90 minutes waiting and talking to someone who wasn't able to help. i was pretty peeved, so i was kicked upstairs and was able to speak with Dan Pritchett amazingly enough. I came away from that conversation with this information: Logos 4 isn't really complete yet. They haven't really made that clear to the public. They are really working hard on it. Right now, the available support staff isn't fully trained to answer the tougher questions beyond installation and other basic questions. The web site also isn't fully up to date to support the new Logos. Currently, the best source of support are the YouTube videos.

Before I spoke with Dan, I was ready to toss in the towel on L4 as a waste of my money and time. However, a simple honest answer from him, that the product is still being refined, but a lot of effort is going into this, put this into perspective, and I'm now willing to wait a little longer for the product to get into shape.

My plea is to please me more honest with the public, even if it means a bit of delayed revenue. If others are like me, this is a loyal consumer base.

Barbara Silverstein