Dispensationalism in the early church fathers

I am looking for the best way to find references of dispensationalism in the church fathers. I created a collection of the fathers, and searched just the term dispensation in the search box. Does anyone know a better way of searching it, so that I do not come up with so many false positives?

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Bill Anderson

I am not sure just what you are looking for. You might try a search of the term chiliasm and see if this gets you closer to what you are looking for. There were a few hits that I saw in my library (platinum). Geerhardus Vos has a chapter in his book, The Pauline Eschatology, on the question of chiliasm in Paul. Unfortunately, this book is not yet in Logos.

Blair Laird

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/354936#Comment_354936

I am trying to find out if any form of dispensationalism was espoused by the early church fathers

Brother Mark

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/354940#Comment_354940

I am trying to find out if any form of dispensationalism was espoused by the early church fathers

I believe that you'll find this essay interesting: http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/803995/posts

Also, I found the following hits in my early church fathers Platinum+ collection:

Bill Anderson

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/354940#Comment_354940

Just what about dispensationalism, though? I pointed to chiliasm or chiliasmus as one angle on that. Dispenationalists believe in the literal 1,000-year millennial reign. There appears to be evidence of this view early on in the fathers from the references I could see.

Edit: See Schaff's, History of the Christian Church, § 158 which is on Chiliasm.

Blair Laird

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/354943#Comment_354943

Just what about dispensationalism, though? I pointed to chiliasm or chiliasmus as one angle on that. Dispenationalists believe in the literal 1,000-year millennial reign. There appears to be evidence of this view early on in the fathers from the references I could see.

Edit: See Schaff's, History of the Christian Church, § 158 which is on Chiliasm.

That does help thanks.. Basically I am looking for dispensation (theology) found in the fathers, not just the word dispensations. For example just by searching the word dispensation I found

"Forasmuch then as he said, that from the Creator there would come other laws, and other words, and new dispensations of covenants" -Tertullian.

Which gets me kinda close to what I am looking for. But I am trying to weed out the false hits which are just the word dispensation, but have nothing to do with dispensational theology, and the sections that actually deal with dispensational theology.

I am thinking the best way is to come up with a list of well known dispensational theology keywords, and search it that way but I am not sure.

Rosie Perera

I doubt it was called dispensationalism back then, nor would they necessarily refer to "dispensations"; your best bet would be to research more recent authors talking about evidences of dispensationalist beliefs among the ECF. A search for dispensationalism NEAR "church fathers" (with "Match all word forms" turned on) in my Library looks promising.

Best his you might want to pursue for further research:

From a periodical review in Bibliotheca Sacra: "Arnold D. Ehlert’s A Bibliographic History of Dispensationalism...traces fully developed dispensational systems back to the 17th century and dispensational concepts to the church fathers." [That book is available used on Amazon.com: http://www.amazon.com/bibliographic-history-dispensationalism-BCH/dp/B0007ISTKS]

From Bibliotheca Sacra Volume 144, 575 (Dallas, TX: Dallas Theological Seminary, 1987), 272-76.

Appendix

Dispensational
Features in the Patristic Period

Church Fathers

Dispensational
Features

Sex-/Septamillennial
Tradition

Dispensational
Distinctions

Premillennialism

Imminency

Clement of Rome (fl. ca. 90-100)

x?¹

x²

Ignatius of Antioch (d. ca. 98/117)

x?^3̆

x⁴

Polycarp (70-155/60)

x?⁵

Papias (ca. 60-130/155)

x⁶

The Didache (before end of
1st cent.)

x?^7̆

x⁸

The Epistle of Barnabas (ca.
70-100 or 117-138)

x⁹

x¹⁰

The Shepherd of Hermas (ca.
96 or ca. 140-150)

x?¹¹

x^12‡

Justin Martyr (ca. 100-165)

x¹³

x¹⁴

x^15̆

Melito of Sardis (2d. cent.)

x?¹⁶

Theophilus of Antioch (115-181)

x¹⁷

Apollinaris of Hierapolis (ca. 175)

x?¹⁸

Irenaeus (ca. 120-202)

x¹⁹

x²⁰

x^21̆

x^22‡

Hippolytus (d. ca. 236)

x²³

x^24*

x²⁵

Clement of Alexandria (ca. 150-220)

x?²⁶

x?²⁷

Tertullian (150-225)

x?²⁸

x²⁹

x^30̆

x³¹

Julius Africanus (d. ca. 240)

x³²

Cyprian (ca. 200-258)

x³³

x³⁴

x³⁵

Nepos (fl. ca. 230-250)

x³⁶

Coracion (ca. 230-280)

x^37*

Commodian (ca. 200-ca. 275)

x³⁸

x^39̆

Victorinus of Pettau (d. ca. 304)

x⁴⁰

x⁴¹

x⁴²

BSac 144:575 (Jul 87) p. 273


Methodius (d. 311)	x⁴³		x⁴⁴		x⁴⁵
Lactantius (ca. 240-320)	x⁴⁶				x^47‡
Hilary (ca. 300-367)	x?⁴⁸
Apollinarius of Laodicea (ca. 310-ca. 390)					x⁴⁹
Jerome (ca. 340-420)		x?⁵⁰				anti-mill.⁵¹
Augustine (354-430)	x⁵²		x⁵³		x^54*
Ambrosiaster (fl. 366-384)					x⁵⁵
Theodoret (ca. 390-457)				x?⁵⁶		anti-mill.⁵⁷
Cassiodorus (ca. 477-ca. 570)	x?⁵⁸
Gregory the Great (ca. 546-604)	x?⁵⁹
Isidore of Seville (d. 636)	x?⁶⁰
Andrew of Crete (ca. 660-740)	x?⁶¹
John of Damascus (700-754)	x⁶²

x = View held
? = Position questioned, not based on primary sources
* = View later retracted
̆ = Belief in double resurrection
‡ = Possible pretribulational reference

¹ The First Epistle of Clement chaps. 22-37. According to Jesse Forrest Silver, Clement's premillennialism is evident in these chapters by his "repeated exhortations 'in view of the second coming of Christ'" (The Lord's Return [New York: Fleming H. Revell, Co., 1914], p. 51). Clement's supposed premillennialism is usually based on his association with the apostles, especially Paul (Phil 4:3), and their eschatological teachings. See George N. H. Peters, The Theocratic Kingdom of Our Lord Jesus, the Christ, 3 vols. (Grand Rapids: Kregel Publications, 1957), 1:494-95; Daniel T. Taylor, The Reign of Christ on Earth (Boston: Scriptural Tract Repository, 1882), p. 51; and J. A. Seiss, The Last Times (Baltimore: T. Newton Kurtz, 1859), pp. 238-39.
² The First Epistle of Clement chap. 23.
³ Premillennialism: Epistle to the Ephesians chap. 11 (refs. to "last times"). This evidence is set forth by Peters, The Theocratic Kingdom, 1:495, and Taylor, The Reign of Christ on Earth, p. 54, and quoted with approval by Charles C. Ryrie, The Basis of the Premillennial Faith (Neptune, NJ: Loizeaux Brothers, 1953), p. 21. First resurrection (not explicitly so-called): Epistle to the Romans chap. 4; quoted by Taylor, p. 54, and Richard Cunningham Shimeall, Christ's Second Coming (New York: John F. Trow and Richard Brinkerhoff, 1865), pp. 63-64. The evidence cited for Ignatius on both premillennialism and the first resurrection is not altogether compelling.

BSac 144:575 (Jul 87) p. 274

⁴ Epistle to Polycarp
chaps. 1, 3.

⁵ Epistle to the
Philippians chap. 5. Position based on Polycarp's association with the
Apostle John and with premillenarians like Papias (see Irenaeus Against Heresies 5.33.4; Peters, The Theocratic Kingdom, 1:495; Taylor,
The Reign of Christ on Earth, pp.
54-55; Shimeall, Christ's Second Coming, p. 64; Silver, The Lord's Return, p. 60; and John F. Walvoord, The Millennial Kingdom [Grand Rapids: Zondervan Pub. House,
1959], p. 39).

⁶ Fragments 4 and 6.

⁷ The Didache chap.
16, secs. 6-7. The position here is based primarily on the belief in a double
resurrection (see Ryrie, The Basis of
the Premillennial Faith, pp. 19-20).

⁸ Ibid., secs. 1-3.

⁹ Epistle of Barnabas
chap. 15.

¹⁰ Ibid., chap. 21.

¹¹ The Shepherd of
Hermas Similitudes 3 and 4. Almost
everyone, it is said, concedes that Hermas was premillennial (cf. Peters, The Theocratic Kingdom, 1:495;
Walvoord, The Millennial Kingdom,
p. 119; and Ryrie, The Basis of the
Premillennial Faith, p. 20). The evidence, however, falls short of being
conclusive.

¹² The Shepherd of
Hermas Visions 4 and 11. Is this a reference to the pretribulation
rapture? See also Similitude 9, 7, where the Master is expected to "come
suddenly" to examine the tower. This seems to be a reference to rapture out
of the midst of on-going tribulation (i.e., Roman persecution), or a type of
imminent intratribulationism rather than pretribulationism.

¹³ Dialogue with
Trypho chap. 81; frag. 15. (Cf. Taylor, The Reign of Christ on Earth, p. 59, quote credited to Justin.)

¹⁴Ibid., chaps. 27-29, 43, 45-47, 80-81 et al.

¹⁵ Premillennialism: Dialogue
with Trypho chaps. 80-81 (esp. 81). Double resurrection: Dialogue with Trypho chaps. 80-81, 113
("the holy resurrection").

¹⁶ See Taylor, p. 66; Peters, The Theocratic Kingdom, 1:495; Silver, The Lord's Return, p.
66 (based on Jerome, Comm. on Ezek 36; Gennadius, De Dogm. Eccl., chap. 52).

¹⁷ Theophilus to
Autolycus 3.28. (See Silver, The
Lord's Returnn, p. 62.)

¹⁸ Jerome Lives of
Illustrious Men chap. 18. (Cf. Peters, The Theocratic Kingdom, 1:496.)

¹⁹ Against Heresies
5.23.2; 5.28.2-3; 5.29.2.

²⁰ Ibid., 3.10.2; 3.11.8; 3.16.8.

²¹ Premillennialism: Against
Heresies 5.33-36; Proof of
Apostolic Preaching 57 and 61. Double resurrection: Against Heresies 5.35.1-2 ("resurrection of the just" versus "the
general resurrection").

²² Against Heresies
5.29.1. While this citation seems to teach pretribulationism, elsewhere
(5.35.1) Irenaeus placed the resurrection of the just after the coming of
Antichrist.

²³ Fragments from Commentaries On Daniel 2.4-6.

BSac 144:575 (Jul 87) p. 275

²⁴ Fragments from Commentaries On Daniel 2.4, 40.

²⁵ Treatise on Christ and Antichrist 5 ("the
sudden appearing of the Lord").

²⁶ See Peters, The
Theocratic Kingdom, 1:498, and Seiss, The
Last Times, p. 242; The Stromata
4.24.

²⁷ Alexander Roberts and James Donaldson, eds., The Ante-Nicene Fathers, 10 vols.
(Grand Rapids: Wm. B. Eerdmans Publishing Co., n.d.), 2:476, Elucidation 3.

²⁸ A Treatise on the
Soul chap. 37 (possible weak reference to year-day theory).

²⁹ An Answer to the
Jews chaps. 2-6 (esp. chap. 2).

³⁰ Premillennialism:
Against Marcion 3.25. Double
resurrection: A Treatise on the
Soul chap. 55; Against Marcion
3.25.

³¹ Apology chap.
21 (the Second Advent "impends over the world, now near its close"); The Shows chap. 30 ("that fast approaching advent of our Lord").

³² Fragments of
Chronography of Julius Africanus 1.18.4. See Johannes Quasten, Patrology, 3 vols. (Westminster, MD:
Christian Classics, 1983), 2:138.

³³ Treatise XI, "On the Exhortation to Martyrdom," 11.

³⁴ Treatise IV, "On the Lord's Supper," 13; Treatise VII,
"On the Mortality," 18.

³⁵ Treatise I, "On the Unity of the Church," 27.

³⁶ Eusebius Church
History 7.24; Jerome Lives of
Illustrious Men chap. 69.

³⁷ Eusebius Church
History 7.24.

³⁸ The Instructions of
Commodianus 80.

³⁹ Premillennialism: Instructions
43-44, 80. Double resurrection: Instructions
33, 41, 80.

⁴⁰ On the Creation of
the World (short, no divisions).

⁴¹ Ibid., ("four generations of people").

⁴² Ibid., (Christ to reign with the elect in the seventh
millennium); Commentary on the
Apocalypse of the Blessed John chap. 5.8-9; Jerome Lives of Illustrious Men chap. 18.

⁴³ The Banquet of the
Ten Virgins discourse 9, chaps. 1, 5; Fragments 9.

⁴⁴ Ibid., discourse 7, chaps. 5-7; discourse 10, chaps. 2-4.

⁴⁵ Ibid., discourse 9, chaps. 1, 5.

⁴⁶ The Divine
Institutes 7.14, 25-26; The Epitome
of the Divine Institutes chap. 70.

⁴⁷ Premillennialism: The
Divine Institutes 7.14, 24-26; The
Epitome of the Divine Institutes chap. 72. Double resurrection: The Divine Institutes 7.22-23, 26; The Epitome of the Divine Institutes chap. 72.

⁴⁸ Taylor, The Reign
of Christ on Earth, p. 94.

⁴⁹ Epiphanius Medicine
Box against Heresies 77.36-38;
Basil Letter 263.4.

⁵⁰ Taylor, p. 96.

⁵¹ In Isaiam
proph. lib. 18; in Hieremiam proph.
lib. 4; ad Jer 19:10f.

BSac 144:575 (Jul 87) p. 276

⁵² On the Catechising
of the Uninstructed chap. 17.28; Sermons on New Testament Lessons Sermon 75, sect. 4; On the Gospel of St. John Tractate 15,
secs. 6 and 9; Tractate 9, sec. 6; On
the Psalms, Psalm. 6.1.

⁵³ Ibid.

⁵⁴ The City of God
20.7.

⁵⁵ In 2 Thessalonians 2:8-9; in 1 Corinthians 15:52.

⁵⁶ Arnold D. Ehlert, A
Bibliographic History of Dispensationalism (Grand Rapids: Baker Book
House, 1965), p. 29.

⁵⁷ Compendium of
Heretics' Fables 5.21.

⁵⁸ Ehlert, A
Bibliographic History of Dispensationalism, pp. 18-19.

⁵⁹ Thomas Burnet, Sacred
Theory of the Earth (London: J. McGowan, n.d.), p. 260.

⁶⁰ Ibid.

⁶¹ Ehlert, p. 18.

⁶² Exposition of the
Orthodox Faith 2.1.

From Bibliotheca Sacra Volume 144, 576 (Dallas, TX: Dallas Theological Seminary, 1987), 397.

If a church father held to only four dispensations, there is
frequently confusion as to where to draw the boundaries for the first two
dispensations. The Fathers recognized the distinctive part that Adam, Noah, and
Abraham played in God's dispensational arrangements. But if there can be only
four dispensations and the Law under Moses and the gospel under Christ are
assumed,⁸⁵ the first two
economies must be manipulated to fit the predetermined number. The result is
that, depending on which fourfold system one examines, one patriarch (usually
Adam or Abraham) was absorbed into one of the others when the actual divisions
were set forth. In general discussions of God's economies, however, the
fivefold division continued to be observed. And these five are roughly
equivalent to Scofield's dispensations of Innocence (Adam), Government (Noah),
Promise (Abraham), Law (Moses), and Grace (Christ).⁸⁶

85 Victorinus'
scheme, with its lack of amplification, is the exception. How these divisions
may have been treated elsewhere in his nonextant works is of course past
finding out, but stirs interest nonetheless.

86 See C. I.
Scofield, Rightly Dividing the Word of
Truth, pp. 12-16.

There is a pair of articles by Craig A. Blaising of Dallas Theological Seminary in Bibliotheca Sacra that you might want to read:

"Developing Dispensationalism Part 1: Doctrinal Development in Orthodoxy" Bibliotheca Sacra Volume 145, no. 578 (Apr 1988), 132.

"Developing Dispensationalism Part 2: Development of Dispensationalism by Contemporary Dispensationalists" Bibliotheca Sacra 145, no. 579 (Jul 1988), 253.

In an article in JETS Vol. 46, mention is made of a book called An Introduction to Classical Evangelical Hermeneutics: A Guide to the History and Practice of Biblical Interpretation, edited by Mal Couch (Kregel, 2000) with a chapter called “The Early Church Fathers and the Foundations of Dispensationalism,” by Larry V. Crutchfield (pp. 87-94). That book is available on Amazon.com (Kindle or used paperback).

-------------------------------

Those who consider themselves historic premillennialists
distinguish themselves from dispensationalists by insisting that
premillennialism was embraced by the earliest church fathers, whereas
dispensationalism with its literal hermeneutic which distinguishes Israel and
the church as two people of God, was not.^{37^[1]}

³⁷ For an excellent discussion of the contrast between
the two viewpoints see The Meaning of the
Millennium, ed. Clouse, pp. 17–116.

^{^[1]}
Robert P. Lightner, Handbook of Evangelical
Theology: A Historical, Biblical, and Contemporary Survey and Review (Grand
Rapids, MI: Kregel Publications, 1995), 273.

Blair Laird

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/354942#Comment_354942

I believe that you'll find this essay interesting: http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/803995/posts

This site did help. I found in the footnotes a article from one of my journals

Crutchfield, "Ages and Dispensations in the Ante-Nicene Fathers,”

Blair Laird

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/354946#Comment_354946

A search for dispensationalism NEAR "church fathers

I tried that, and came up only five articles.

The article from bibliotheca did not even show up from the search

Rosie Perera

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/354948#Comment_354948

A search for dispensationalism NEAR "church fathers

I tried that, and came up only five articles.

The article from bibliotheca did not even show up from the search

Did you have "Match all word forms" turned on?

Josh

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/354943#Comment_354943

I searched the first volume of the Church Fathers and got a bunch of hits for "dispensation" - some seem to have a basic understanding of dispensationalism. Especially the second quote I listed.

The Church, though dispersed throughout the whole world, even to the ends of the earth, has received from the apostles and their disciples this faith: [She believes] in one God, the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven, and earth, and the sea, and all things that are in them; and in one Christ Jesus, the Son of God, who became incarnate for our salvation; and in the Holy Spirit, who proclaimed through the prophets the dispensations of God, and the advents, and the birth from a virgin, and the passion, and the resurrection from the dead, and the ascension into heaven in the flesh of the beloved Christ Jesus, our Lord

The Ante-Nicene Fathers, Volume I: The Apostolic Fathers With Justin Martyr and Irenaeus, ed. Alexander Roberts, James Donaldson and A. Cleveland Coxe (Buffalo, NY: Christian Literature Company, 1885), 330.

...it shall then be clearly proved, that they (the apostles) confessed as the Lord God Him who was the Creator of heaven and earth, who also spoke with Moses, gave to him the dispensation of the law...

Ibid, 440.

...Inasmuch, therefore, as the opinions of certain [orthodox persons] are derived from heretical discourses, they are both ignorant of God’s dispensations, and of the mystery of the resurrection of the just, and of the [earthly] kingdom...

Ibid, 561.

I like what Ryrie had to say about the historicity of pretribulationism (typically associated with dispensationalism) here:

Some of the early church Fathers taught baptismal regeneration. That scarcely makes it a true doctrine. The early church did not spell out a pretribulation rapture. That scarcely makes it an untrue doctrine. The early church believed in tribulation, the imminent coming of Christ, and a Millennium to follow. The early church was clearly premillennial but not clearly pretribulational, nor was it clearly posttribulational when measured against today’s developed pre- or posttribulation teachings.

Charles Caldwell Ryrie, What You Should Know About the Rapture (Chicago,IL: Moody Press, 1981), 68.

Blair Laird

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/354951#Comment_354951

A search for dispensationalism NEAR "church fathers

I tried that, and came up only five articles.

The article from bibliotheca did not even show up from the search

Did you have "Match all word forms" turned on?

I have search all text selected if that is what you mean

Josh

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/354952#Comment_354952

from Paul P. Enns, The Moody Handbook of Theology (Chicago, Ill.: Moody Press, 1997), 513.

Blair Laird

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/354955#Comment_354955

from Paul P. Enns, The Moody Handbook of Theology (Chicago, Ill.: Moody Press, 1997), 513.

Thats weird because I have that book, and it does not show up in the search results either.

Rosie Perera

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/354953#Comment_354953

Did you have "Match all word forms" turned on?

I have search all text selected if that is what you mean

No, I meant the "Match all word forms" checkmark on the panel menu. If you turn this on, it will match dispensationalist, dispensationalism, dispensation, dispensations, so you don't need to list all the variants yourself.

Blair Laird

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/354958#Comment_354958

Thanks Rosie.. No I did not

Blair Laird

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/354960#Comment_354960

Is there some reason why the references don't post when I copy a section? For example

"Barnabas’ year-day tradition is the earliest budding of the dispensational understanding of God’s dealings with man. Barnabas indicated that boundaries have been set for the times of man, the kingdom rest, and the beginning of eternity.2 "

Vol. 144: Bibliotheca Sacra Volume 144. 1987 (576) (378). Dallas, TX: Dallas Theological Seminary.

I was hoping that the reference for the number 2 would also post when I pasted it but it does not. Is there a certain setting that I need to change?

Rosie Perera

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/354967#Comment_354967

Is there some reason why the references don't post when I copy a section? For example

"Barnabas’ year-day tradition is the earliest budding of the dispensational understanding of God’s dealings with man. Barnabas indicated that boundaries have been set for the times of man, the kingdom rest, and the beginning of eternity.2 "

Vol. 144: Bibliotheca Sacra Volume 144. 1987 (576) (378). Dallas, TX: Dallas Theological Seminary.

I was hoping that the reference for the number 2 would also post when I pasted it but it does not. Is there a certain setting that I need to change?

It normally doesn't copy the footnote marks for me either, but I found a work-around: I copy and paste into Word first, then use the "Paste from Word" button on the toolbar above the forum post edit box.

Jacob Hantla

You will probably have better luck searching the fathers for verse references to the verses that would reveal dispensational thinking.

Mark O'Hearn

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/354980#Comment_354980

"Dispenationalists believe in the literal 1,000-year millennial reign." Must have been something they read and believed from Revelations I suspect.[;)]

Regards

Dean J

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/354952#Comment_354952

I searched the first volume of the Church Fathers and got a bunch of hits for "dispensation" - some seem to have a basic understanding of dispensationalism. Especially the second quote I listed.

The Church, though dispersed throughout the whole world, even to the ends of the earth, has received from the apostles and their disciples this faith: [She believes] in one God, the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven, and earth, and the sea, and all things that are in them; and in one Christ Jesus, the Son of God, who became incarnate for our salvation; and in the Holy Spirit, who proclaimed through the prophets the dispensations of God, and the advents, and the birth from a virgin, and the passion, and the resurrection from the dead, and the ascension into heaven in the flesh of the beloved Christ Jesus, our Lord

I think we need to be careful about reading our definitions of words into older sources (anachronism). Apart from covenant theologians, all Christians have distinguished the various periods (older writers sometimes referred to them as economies rather than dispensations, but the meaning is the same). What we don't find in the fathers are distinctive 'dispensational' teachings such as the Israel/Church distinction and the pre-tribulation rapture.

[quote]...Inasmuch, therefore, as the opinions of certain [orthodox persons] are derived from heretical discourses, they are both ignorant of God’s dispensations, and of the mystery of the resurrection of the just, and of the [earthly] kingdom...

In context, you would be a little taken aback by what Irenaeus is referring to - his own idea is that Christians go to Hades when they die, not to heaven (as the gnostics, and some Christians - as he admits - held), and that later they are resurrected to earth, and from this group those especially worthy will be given a heavenly inheritance after the millennium. This is what he means by the dispensations.

[quote]I like what Ryrie had to say about the historicity of pretribulationism (typically associated with dispensationalism) here:

Every early church father who touches the subject taught baptismal regeneration because it was the universal teaching of the early church (and is found in the Nicene creed). I won't make any comments about how this should be understood, and I am a Protestant myself, but purely on a historical consideration, this comment could be misleading. Furthermore, much scholarly work has been done on the extent of chiliasm ('premillennialism') among the church fathers, and it's not an easy question to answer - I would recommend Dr. Charles Hill's Regnum Caelorum on this question. Suffice to say, even Justin, who was a vocal chiliast, seems to admit that many Christians of the orthodox faith did not agree with his position. And in fact Justin believed that only Christians would live in the rebuilt Jerusalem, and not non-Christian Jews: "And
you deceive yourselves while you fancy that, because you are the seed of
Abraham after the flesh, therefore you shall fully inherit the good things
announced to be bestowed by God through Christ." He doesn't seem to have heard of the Israel/Church distinction either.

Lastly, many quotations from the fathers demonstrate that they did in fact hold that the tribulation would be followed by the coming of the Lord - for example, the Didache chapter 16.

Josh

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/355559#Comment_355559

Sometimes I feel that many people overly value the opinions of these early church writers. While I respect and acknowledge that they have their importance in theological and historical studies, I am reminded by their vast differences that these men were not perfect and were obviously wrong on many things. In fact, when we study Paul's epistles we see that the early church was filled with unorthodox beliefs - and the problem was growing rapidly. The second and third centuries found itself saturated with heresy. I would take what they say with a grain of salt.

Dean J

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/355618#Comment_355618

Sometimes I feel that many people overly value the opinions of these early church writers. While I respect and acknowledge that they have their importance in theological and historical studies, I am reminded by their vast differences that these men were not perfect and were obviously wrong on many things. In fact, when we study Paul's epistles we see that the early church was filled with unorthodox beliefs - and the problem was growing rapidly. The second and third centuries found itself saturated with heresy. I would take what they say with a grain of salt.

Whether we value them or not, they must be represented fairly and responsibly, don't you agree?

Doc B

references of dispensationalism in the church fathers.

The current variety of dispensationalism was a 19th century invention. You are going to have to look for the ideas in earlier writings in a different way than you would look for them in the past 100 years. There have already been some good suggestions posted.

Josh

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/355625#Comment_355625

Whether we value them or not, they must be represented fairly and responsibly, don't you agree?

Absolutely! In my initial post, I quickly searched the first volume of the Anti-Nicene Fathers in Logos and discovered some interesting places the word "dispensation" was being used - I had not looked at context. I was pointing out to the OP possible places that he may want to further investigate. It appears you did the work for him. However, my second post included a source (screenshot) found within Paul Enn's systematic theology. Would you disagree with how Dr. Enns represented Justin Martyr, Irenaeus, Clement, and Augustine?

Dean J

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/355658#Comment_355658

Absolutely! In my initial post, I quickly searched the first volume of the Anti-Nicene Fathers in Logos and discovered some interesting places the word "dispensation" was being used - I had not looked at context. I was pointing out to the OP possible places that he may want to further investigate. It appears you did the work for him. However, my second post included a source (screenshot) found within Paul Enn's systematic theology. Would you disagree with how Dr. Enns represented Justin Martyr, Irenaeus, Clement, and Augustine?

You're right, you were quoting sources which directly addressed the opening post - I just thought a second opinion on some of Ryrie's comments might be in order. Perhaps I've overstepped the mark as to what is appropriate for this forum (I'll stop if I'm offending anyone). I agree with Enns that those people did distinguish dispensations, but non covenantal Christians have always done that (even some Calvinist ones like the British Strict Baptists), so I would disagree that anything distinctively dispensational can be found in them, and when it comes to crucial dispensational distinctives like the Israel/Church distinction, I think they fail the test, so I don't agree that they can be said to be proto-dispensationalists in any meaningful way. In some ways they had some things in common (distinguishing dispensations) and in others they had things in common with covenantal theologians (they held that salvation was always by a kind of obedient faith). I wrote a response to Shower's There Really is a Difference years ago and I'm thinking of polishing it up and trying to sell it on here if Logos set up their bookshop - if you're interested, let me know and I'll send you a copy of it when I get it ready.

Josh

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/355668#Comment_355668

Dean-

I'm not sure if I can fully agree with you. Even if the ECFs did not openly subscribe to supposed crucial dispensational ideas (such as a blatant Israel/church distinction) this does not mean they did not subscribe to any rudimentary dispensational ideas. In some aspects this is all that should be expected to be found of any infantile and/or underdeveloped theological idea. I found this article in Bibiliotheca Sacra interesting. The author sees a practical distinction.

0131.Rudiments of Dispensationalism1.pdf

Jack Caviness

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/355682#Comment_355682

I found this article in Bibiliotheca Sacra interesting.

The same author—Larry Crutchfield—also wrote a series of articles on this subject in Volumes 2 & 3 of the Conservative Theological Journal. Coming a number of years after the BibSac article reflect the result of more extensive research.

Josh

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/355789#Comment_355789

I found this article in Bibiliotheca Sacra interesting.

The same author—Larry Crutchfield—also wrote a series of articles on this subject in Volumes 2 & 3 of the Conservative Theological Journal. Coming a number of years after the BibSac article reflect the result of more extensive research.

Thanks. Too bad I wasn't able to find these articles online. Just another reminder that I need to start saving if I ever plan on buying the Theological Journal Libraries anytime soon!

Mike Childs

You might try just examining the Church Fathers' teaching on the Second Coming, the Millenium, Judgment, the Resurrection, etc.

If there is any dispensationalism in the Church Fathers, it should manifest itself in teaching on these subjects.

Just try to be as objective as you can in interpretation of their teaching. For example, just because a church father is premellenial, doesn't mean that he is dispensational. And beware that we most often find what we are looking for, whether it is there or not.