The Samaritan Woman at the Well
Hello, I have a question, I would like to see if anyone can help me on. I was reading the Bible Knowledge Commentary on yesterday and there was a chart comparing Necodemus and the Samaritan Woman, in the chart it stated that the women would have met Jesus about 6pm, however, the bible says "the sixth hour," I would like to know how this calculation came about? Not sure they were using the Jewish or Roman time standard or something else. Please help anyone!
Thanks so much
Johnny
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Johnny - First, welcome to the forums!
Johnny Shepard said:I would like to know how this calculation came about? Not sure they were using the Jewish or Roman time standard or something else.
If you read the comments in the BKC for verse 4:6, it says:
BKC said:It was about the sixth hour, which according to Roman time reckoning would have been 6 p.m. (See comments on John 1:39; 19:14.)
The follow up passages reveal a little more:
BKC said:The two disciples remained with Him that day, beginning at the 10th hour. That hour was 4 p.m. or 10 a.m., depending on whether the Fourth Gospel counted days from 6 a.m. (as the Synoptics customarily did) or from midnight or noon. The 10 a.m. times seems better and was the official Roman usage (cf. comments on 4:6; 19:14).
BKC said:The sixth hour, by Roman reckoning of time, could indicate 6 a.m. (some scholars, however, take it to mean noon; cf. comments on 1:39; 4:6).
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Johnny ... to add to what Alabama provided, you're correct ... the situation becomes confusing.
Here's from Utley (who I like a lot):
"There is much discussion about which method of reckoning time John used in his Gospel. Some references seem to be Jewish time and some Roman time. John seems to begin the day at 6 a.m.; therefore, Jesus is at the well at the hottest time of the day, noon.
Utley, R. J. D. (1999). Vol. Volume 4: The Beloved Disciple's Memoirs and Letters: The Gospel of John, I, II, and III John. Study Guide Commentary Series (43). Marshall, Texas: Bible Lessons International.And Meyer:
"Here again we have not the Roman reckoning (see on 1:40), though the evening was the more usual time for drawing water. Still we must not suppose that, because the time was unusual, it was intended thereby that Jesus might know, in connection therewith, “that the woman was given Him of the Father” (Luthardt, p. 80). Jesus knew that, independently of the hour. But John could never forget the hour, so important in its issues, of this first preaching to the Samaritan woman, and therefore he names it. "
Meyer, H. A. W. (1874). Critical and Exegetical Handbook to the Gospel of John, Volume 1 (F. Crombie, Ed.) (W. Urwick & F. Crombie, Trans.). Critical and Exegetical Commentary on the New Testament (204). Edinburgh: T&T Clark.And finally Brown in Anchor Yale:
'Noon. Literally “the sixth hour.” The woman’s choice of time for coming to the well is unusual; such a chore was done in the morning and evening. There is little likelihood in the suggestion (Lightfoot, p. 122) that the scene is deliberately being related to the crucifixion, where noon is also the hour (19:14) and Jesus is again driven to express his thirst (19:28). However, the great medieval hymn the Dies Irae seems to have made this connection: “Quaerens me sedisti lassus; redemisti crucem passus.” The suggestion that hours should be reckoned from midnight rather than from 6:00 a.m. (see Note on 1:39) would change the time notation in this verse to 6:00 a.m. Such an hour would fit the scene at the well, but would not fit “the sixth hour” of 19:14."
Brown, R. E., S.S. (2008). The Gospel according to John (I-XII): Introduction, translation, and notes (169). New Haven; London: Yale University Press."If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
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Thank you so much, I think I somewhat understand. So, the connection in John 4:6 would be the same day as John 1:39?
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Johnny Shepard said:
Hello, I have a question, I would like to see if anyone can help me on. I was reading the Bible Knowledge Commentary on yesterday and there was a chart comparing Necodemus and the Samaritan Woman, in the chart it stated that the women would have met Jesus about 6pm, however, the bible says "the sixth hour," I would like to know how this calculation came about? Not sure they were using the Jewish or Roman time standard or something else. Please help anyone!
Welcome [:D]
The Net Bible has footnotes in John 3:1 and John 4:6 plus the ESV Bible has a footnote in John 4:6
For screen shot, included three more commentaries: => UBS New Testament Handbook Series , => The Cambridge Bible for Schools and Colleges: John and => Tyndale Commentaries (49 vols.)
Keep Smiling [:)]
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This is one of those: who dun’nit? type of passages. But I think that a good identifier as to the time being around noon, with consideration to the many many commentator’s, is the Woman.
Why? Well we must be mindful of the woman, apparently John relates that she was possibly a woman of ill repute and that would leads us to believe that she was also probably frowned upon[outcast] by the other women, as well as probably some men. So when we take the whole of the following conversation into perspective, it would lead us to believe that she would come to the well while others were not there, get her water and then be on her way……
using Logos Bible software, a brief search of the "sixth hour" produces many results, but you can narrow it down by historical[mannerisms] data.....[interesting that KS4J came up with close to the same resources.....]
********
using the "cluster graph" you can see slight difference in the respective translations, but they are not that far apart in the word usage.
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Now RoomForMore, our pastor felt the personal need to 'point the finger' at the woman too and I'll ask you what I asked him ... what possessed anyone to think that. Especially since multiple husbands was not uncommon (older men marrying younger women and dieing). The last one could be betrothed we don't know. And Jesus doesn't appear to be condemning her; certainly the village seriously considers her testimony.
For comparison, another woman in Acts had two husbands before hitting 20 (both dieing off).
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
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Amen, thank you all so very much! However, I think what I m really driving at is help on figuring out how the Bible Knowledge Commentary chart came up with it's calculations. I've been trying to find info to support it, but can not on this passage (John 4:6) where they translate the sixth hour to mean 6:00p.m. Can anyone help me possibly understand how the Bible Knowledge Commentary came up with it's calculation?
Thanx
Johnny
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DMB said:
Now RoomForMore, our pastor felt the personal need to 'point the finger' at the woman too and I'll ask you what I asked him ... what possessed anyone to think that. Especially since multiple husbands was not uncommon (older men marrying younger women and dieing). The last one could be betrothed we don't know. And Jesus doesn't appear to be condemning her; certainly the village seriously considers her testimony.
For comparison, another woman in Acts had two husbands before hitting 20 (both dieing off).
As contentious as this may appear, you never cease to amaze me. I was not condemning her, just stating a fact as pointed out in Scripture. Also, see KS4J’s top-right of the screen shot…..(ii)/ so if we can assume that you may be correct, then there are other issues that need to be address'd.....
Thanks for noticing....
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DMB and Room4more, pls reframe from this type of discussion; I really would like to get the maximum response to my question, this is very important questions for many who would like to know. Thanks again for your consideration and respect to the concern being asked here.
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Johnny Shepard,
You would inevitably have to go with what you are compelled to accept. The majority of commentator's are divided as to the correct time, as we would associate, some state how they conclude and some do not, the BKC is one that does not. It's one of those 6-0f-0ne, half-a-dozen-of-the-other answers.
was it Jewish time or Roman?
sorry could not be more specific....
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Johnny Shepard said:
Can anyone help me possibly understand how the Bible Knowledge Commentary came up with it's calculation?
Johnny, if you go back up to my original post, you will find that I followed the links within the Bible Knowledge Commentary for you. When you do so, you will discover that they believe that John was using "the Roman reckoning of time", rather than the Jewish way of doing it (by beginning at 6 AM). This is an interpretive decision by the author(s) of that section of the commentary.
It is clear from the notes in the BKC that the author(s) felt that John was using Roman time, whereas the synoptic gospels used the Jewish time method. I do not know why they made this decision, and they do not say.
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Alabama, thank you. As your comments really helps, I really like the BKC, and wanted to find some helpful supportive info to backup what was being stated in that chart. However, I agree with you, the author made a decision to state something without reasoning.
Thanks again, you have really been helpful to my question.
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Consider this:
Grk “about the sixth hour.”
sn For John, the time was especially important. When the note concerning the hour, about noon, is connected with the day, the day of preparation for the Passover, it becomes apparent that Jesus was going to die on the cross at the very time that the Passover lambs were being slain in the temple courts. Exod 12:6 required that the Passover lamb be kept alive until the 14th Nisan, the eve of the Passover, and then slaughtered by the head of the household at twilight (Grk “between the two evenings”). By this time the slaughtering was no longer done by the heads of households, but by the priests in the temple courts. But so many lambs were needed for the tens of thousands of pilgrims who came to Jerusalem to celebrate the feast (some estimates run in excess of 100,000 pilgrims) that the slaughter could not be completed during the evening, and so the rabbis redefined “between the two evenings” as beginning at noon, when the sun began to decline toward the horizon. Thus the priests had the entire afternoon of 14th Nisan in which to complete the slaughter of the Passover lambs. According to the Fourth Gospel, this is the time Jesus was dying on the cross.NET Bible.
and this: Matthew 27:45
Grk “from the sixth hour to the ninth hour.”
79 sn This imagery has parallels to the Day of the Lord: Joel 2:10; Amos 8:9; Zeph 1:15.
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I have always learnt that there were 12 'hours' between sunrise and sunset, regardless of when those took place. Thus the 6th hour would always be noon, but the length of the hours would vary depending on the time of the year. Since the Passion happened at Passover, which takes place in the middle of the spring, the 'first' hour' would indeed have been around 6 AM then, but at midsummer it would have been earlier and at midwinter later. The night was divided in a similar way, but into 'watches'.
I just checked a couple of dictionaries, and they all concur with this. E g TDNT:
"7. In the NT ὥρα can also mean a twelfth part of the day, Jn. 11:9.33 In the Synoptic Gospels, apart from the parable in Mt. 20:3, 5 f., 9, only the events of the passion are related to specific times, Mk. 15:25, 33 f. and par.; cf. Jn. 19:14.34 This obviously gives emphasis to these events.35 The same applies, if perhaps in a different way,36 to the event which is given a time in Jn. 1:39. In Jn. 4:52 f. a reference to the time shows that the healing of the sick boy took place at the word of Jesus. Jn. 4:6 gives the time as midday, cf. Ac. 10:9.37 It is morning in Ac. 2:15, while Ac. 23:23 tells us the hour of night when Paul left with his escort. The ninth hour of 10:3, 30 is that of afternoon prayer, cf. 3:1.38 In the general ref. in Mk. 6:35;39 11:11 ὥρα means daytime, cf. Mt. 14:15." (my bold)
Note especially Jn 11:9, which is pretty clear.
alabama24 said:It is clear from the notes in the BKC that the author(s) felt that John was using Roman time, whereas the synoptic gospels used the Jewish time method.
And where is the evidence that Roman time was different from Jewish time? I've never seen any. True, they had a different number of 'watches' at night, but they had the same 12 'hours' of daytime. The New Bible Dictionary:
"1. In its more precise sense (which is probably later than the more general sense), an hour is one-twelfth of the period of daylight: ‘Are there not twelve hours in the day?’ (Jn. 11:9). They were reckoned from sunrise to sunset, just as the three (Jewish) or four (Roman) watches into which the period of darkness was divided were reckoned from sunset to sunrise. As sunrise and sunset varied according to the time of the year, biblical hours cannot be translated exactly into modern clock-hours; and in any case the absence of accurate chronometers meant that the time of day was indicated in more general terms than with us. It is not surprising that the hours most frequently mentioned are the third, sixth and ninth hours. All three are mentioned in the parable of the labourers in the vineyard (Mt. 20:3, 5), as is also the eleventh hour (v. 6, 9), which has become proverbial for the last opportunity. The two disciples of Jn. 1:35ff. stayed with Jesus for the remainder of the day after going home with him,‘for it was about the tenth hour’ (v. 39), i.e. about 4 p.m., and darkness would have fallen before they concluded their conversation with him. The third, sixth and ninth hours are mentioned in the Synoptic record of the crucifixion (Mk. 15:25, 33f.). The difficulty of reconciling the ‘sixth hour’ of Jn. 19:14 with the ‘third hour’ of Mk. 15:25 has led some to suppose that in John the hours are counted from midnight, not from sunrise. The one concrete piece of evidence in this connection—the statement in the Martyrdom of Polycarp (21) that Polycarp was martyred ‘at the eighth hour’, where 8 a.m. is regarded by some as more probable than 2 p.m.—is insufficient to set against the well-attested fact that Romans and Jews alike counted their hours from sunrise. (The fact that the Romans reckoned their civil day as starting at midnight, while the Jews reckoned theirs as starting at sunset, has nothing to do with the numbering of the hours.) The ‘seventh hour’ of Jn. 4:52 is 1 p.m.; such difficulty as is felt about the reference to ‘yesterday’ in that verse is not removed by interpreting the hour differently. In Rev. 8:1 ‘half an hour’ represents Gk. hēmiōrion." (my bold)
Again, Jn 11:9 makes it pretty clear that Jesus and John sees the day as having 12 'hours', which puts the 6th hour at noon. In fact, it makes it so clear that even if you do want to count from midnight you'd still end up with the 6th hour being noon. You'd just have 'hours' that were twice as long. [:)]
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Johnny - Here are some commentaries. I would lean away from the BKC's understanding.
BECNT said:The evangelist’s reference to the “tenth hour” is the first reference to time in this Gospel (later instances are 4:6, 52; 19:14). Clearly, by mentioning the time, the evangelist gives evidence of eyewitness testimony (e.g., Morris 1995: 138–39). Though it is sometimes argued that Roman reckoning of time commenced at midnight—so that “tenth hour,” for example, would mean “ten in the morning” (hcsb; nasb footnote)—the preponderance of evidence suggests that in the first century of Jesus’ Palestine, time was counted from sunrise to sunset (i.e., from about 6 a.m. until about 6 p.m.; cf. John 11:9). Moreover, the day was divided into three-hour intervals, with people approximating the estimated time to the next full three-hour segment.
Starting to count, then, as was customary, from sunrise at around 6 a.m., “tenth hour” would mean about 4 p.m. Because at that point daylight was going to run out before long, people refrained from engaging in major outdoor activities past that hour and began to make preparations for lodging, if necessary. This was not confined to the Jewish world: “Caesar, for two reasons, would not fight that day; partly because he had no soldiers in the ships, and partly because it was after the tenth hour of the day” (Aulus Hirtius, Alexandrian War 10). Since the main meal was usually taken in the late afternoon, “tenth hour” may also indicate that Jesus extended table fellowship to these two disciples of John the Baptist (Jeremias 1966a: 45 n. 1).
PNTC said:1:39. The ‘tenth hour’ is understood by some to mean ten o’clock in the morning, counting the hours from midnight to noon and noon until midnight. This is alleged to be the ‘Roman’ system, unlike the Jewish system which counts from sunrise to sunset (roughly 6.00 a.m. to 6.00 p. m.). But the evidence in support of a Roman system for counting hours turns out to be unconvincing. The primary support is from Pliny the Elder; but all he says is that Roman priests and authorities, like the Egyptians, counted the official day, the civil day, from midnight to midnight—useful information in leases and other documents that expire at day’s end. Nowhere does he suggest that any of his contemporaries count the hours of a day from midnight; indeed, he says that ‘the common people everywhere’ think of the day running from dawn to dark. Jews, Romans and others divided the daylight ‘day’ into twelve hours; the Romans divided the night into four watches. Counter evidence advanced by Westcott (2. 324–326) is unconvincing: cf. Morris, pp. 800–801. Symbolic interpretations (e.g. Bultmann, p. 100, suggests that ‘tenth hour’ signifies the time of fulfilment; cf. Ferrarro, pp. 96–99) lack rudimentary controls.
UBS said:It was then about four o’clock in the afternoon is literally “It was about the tenth hour.” John seems to follow Roman custom in reckoning the hours from daybreak, which would be about 6.00 a.m., and so “the tenth hour” is equivalent to 4.00 p.m. It is a reference to the time when Jesus invited the two men to come and see where he was staying. In the Greek this parenthetical statement appears at the end of the verse. However, it refers to the time when Jesus invited the two men to visit him, and therefore it is appropriate to introduce it earlier in the verse. Otherwise it could be misunderstood to refer to the time when the two men left Jesus after their visit.
The rest of that day represents the Greek “that day,” but In English it is more natural to add the rest of because the time involved is after four in the afternoon.
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fgh said:
And where is the evidence that Roman time was different from Jewish time? I've never seen any.
After some investigation, I concur. My comments were based upon the BKC's statements, which I believe is mistaken at this point.
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fgh said:
I have always learnt that there were 12 'hours' between sunrise and sunset, regardless of when those took place. Thus the 6th hour would always be noon, but the length of the hours would vary depending on the time of the year. Since the Passion happened at Passover, which takes place in the middle of the spring, the 'first' hour' would indeed have been around 6 AM then, but at midsummer it would have been earlier and at midwinter later. The night was divided in a similar way, but into 'watches'.
It's good that this didn't take place in Sweden or it might have been months before noon time. [;)] [:D]
george
gfsomselיְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן
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Johnny Shepard said:
I really like the BKC, and wanted to find some helpful supportive info to backup what was being stated in that chart. However, I agree with you, the author made a decision to state something without reasoning.
BKC insight for using Roman hours in John is found in Mark 15:26 commentary:
Keep Smiling [:)]
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George Somsel said:
It's good that this didn't take place in Sweden or it might have been months before noon time.
Only north of the polar circle, and only in winter. Here we have about 6 hours between sunrise and sunset at worst. (And being so far north, it's fairly light well before and well after that. It's not like further south where it goes from full daylight to pitch black in half an hour or even less.)
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Keep Smiling 4 Jesus, thank you very much for this insight, it does give me hope that one of my favor commentary's has base information on biblical prinicples...
Can I share my church contact with you to help me understand it all.
Thanks
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fgh said:George Somsel said:
It's good that this didn't take place in Sweden or it might have been months before noon time.
Only north of the polar circle, and only in winter. Here we have about 6 hours between sunrise and sunset at worst. (And being so far north, it's fairly light well before and well after that. It's not like further south where it goes from full daylight to pitch black in half an hour or even less.)
It's good that I don't live north of the polar circle—I could starve between breakfast and lunch! [:D]
george
gfsomselיְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן
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Johnny Shepard said:
Keep Smiling 4 Jesus, thank you very much for this insight, it does give me hope that one of my favor commentary's has base information on biblical prinicples...
One important point from the preface in => How to Read the Bible for All Its Worth is intelligent reading (especially within a genre):
Personally forming hypothesis for further study of "sixth hour" phrase; wondering if meaning of phrase could vary with contextual setting.
Am aware if we were eating at six that the appropriate meal varies based on where in the world we would meet. In some places "eating at six" could refer to breakfast or dinner (six could be A.M. or P.M.) while some locations "eating at six" only has one meal possibility (breakfast).
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Room4more said:
This is one of those: who dun’nit? type of passages. But I think that a good identifier as to the time being around noon, with consideration to the many many commentator’s, is the Woman.
Why? Well we must be mindful of the woman, apparently John relates that she was possibly a woman of ill repute and that would leads us to believe that she was also probably frowned upon[outcast] by the other women, as well as probably some men. So when we take the whole of the following conversation into perspective, it would lead us to believe that she would come to the well while others were not there, get her water and then be on her way……
using Logos Bible software, a brief search of the "sixth hour" produces many results, but you can narrow it down by historical[mannerisms] data.....[interesting that KS4J came up with close to the same resources.....]
********
using the "cluster graph" you can see slight difference in the respective translations, but they are not that far apart in the word usage.
Peace to you, R4M! *smile* and to all!!! *smile* and Always Joy in the Lord!
I don't have the foggiest idea where you get your information about the woman at Samaria being a woman of ill repute?????? Where did John write that?
She had married and divorced again and again and again and was now living with a man when Jesus talked to her..... yes, that's so;
however, in the community in which I live, many who are married and divorced and/or living with someone who is not their spouse doesn't seem to phase the crooked and perverse generation in which we find ourselves.(and to which we are called upon to shine like stars holdng fast to the Word of LIfe!)
Our society doesn't seem to give a "tinker's damn" about how people live, and I wonder if they did there???
And, please note! She went back to town and witnessed! Didn't seem that unpopular, at all! Witnessed! About the Messiah! *smile* And, they listened and all came running out there!
*smile*
And! Jesus stayed there a couple of days! In Samaria of all places! *smile* I wonder how the disciples felt???
John 4:28–40 (ESV)
28So the woman left her water jar and went away into town and said to the people,
29“Come, see a man who told me all that I ever did. Can this be the Christ?”
30They went out of the town and were coming to him.
31Meanwhile the disciples were urging him, saying, “Rabbi, eat.”
32But he said to them, “I have food to eat that you do not know about.”
33So the disciples said to one another, “Has anyone brought him something to eat?”
34Jesus said to them, “My food is to do the will of him who sent me and to accomplish his work.
35Do you not say, ‘There are yet four months, then comes the harvest’? Look, I tell you, lift up your eyes, and see that the fields are white for harvest.
36Already the one who reaps is receiving wages and gathering fruit for eternal life, so that sower and reaper may rejoice together.
37For here the saying holds true, ‘One sows and another reaps.’
38I sent you to reap that for which you did not labor. Others have labored, and you have entered into their labor.”
39Many Samaritans from that town believed in him because of the woman’s testimony, “He told me all that I ever did.”
40So when the Samaritans came to him, they asked him to stay with them, and he stayed there two days.
Philippians 4: 4 Rejoice in the Lord always; again I will say, Rejoice. 5 Let your reasonableness be known to everyone. The Lord is at hand..........
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Hey Milford. Enjoyed your comments. But check if indeed she was even divorced (and whether she precipitated the divorces, if so). I don't think there's any hint of condemnation per se; just impressing the lady with his knowledge (similar to Nathaniel). And so her excitement.
Here in Sedona, I know two women that went through several hubbies, one 3 and the other 4! All died. I don't recall anyone accusing either of moral failings. Folks forget Augustus Ceasar saw the problem so significant that limitations were made as to how long a woman could avoid remarriage (due to wealth accumulation).
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
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Milford Charles Murray said:Room4more said:
This is one of those: who dun’nit? type of passages. But I think that a good identifier as to the time being around noon, with consideration to the many many commentator’s, is the Woman.
[...]apparently John relates that she was possibly a woman of ill repute and that would leads us to believe that she was also probably frowned upon[outcast] by the other women, as well as probably some men.[...]
Where did John write that?
She had married and divorced again and again and again and was now living with a man when Jesus talked to her..... yes, that's so;
hey I am game:
6 Jesus said to her, "Go, ocall your husband, and come here." 17 The woman answered him, "I have no husband." Jesus said to her, "You are right in saying, ‘I have no husband’; 18 for you have had five husbands, and the one you now have is not your husband. What you have said is true." 19 The woman said to him, "Sir, I perceive that pyou are qa prophet.
Your assumption is, that she had "divorced" again, and again.......prove it?
And NO, her witness does not seem unpopular at all...why should it? It wasn't about her.....it was about the "change IN her"....that brought outward change....
[I think you missed some of the points made...]
Thanks for the comment.
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Peace, Denise! *smile*DMB said:Hey Milford. Enjoyed your comments. But check if indeed she was even divorced (and whether she precipitated the divorces, if so). I don't think there's any hint of condemnation per se; just impressing the lady with his knowledge (similar to Nathaniel). And so her excitement.
You are indeed correct! Of course! *smile*
Philippians 4: 4 Rejoice in the Lord always; again I will say, Rejoice. 5 Let your reasonableness be known to everyone. The Lord is at hand..........
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Room4more said:
Your assumption is, that she had "divorced" again, and again.......prove it?
And NO, her witness does not seem unpopular at all...why should it? It wasn't about her.....it was about the "change IN her"....that brought outward change....
[I think you missed some of the points made...]
Peace and Joy and Every Blessing, R4M.
Of course, Denise was correct as I shared with her in my post. The fact she had had five husbands ... (was the man in her life number 6? -- or was he the number 5)
doesn't necessarily says she divorced all of them .... They could all have died, of course. The Samaritans claimed to follow Moses; and I wonder if "I Divorce Thee" I Divorce Thee! I Divorce Thee" was part of their tradition. Will have to try to look that up one of these days.
Obviously I pulled the trigger too quickly, eh? *smile*
However, when you used the phrase "woman of ill repute" over against the |Samaritan woman, I wonder if you realised that a "woman of ill repute" is a prostitute. It was just that that bugged me since I've never ever came across that one before. And also your statement, "[...]apparently John relates that she was possibly a woman of ill repute and that would leads us to believe that she was also probably frowned upon[outcast] by the other women, as well as probably some men.[...] " also bugged me! *smile*
Philippians 4: 4 Rejoice in the Lord always; again I will say, Rejoice. 5 Let your reasonableness be known to everyone. The Lord is at hand..........
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True, but can we get away with the word 'wH_r_' and not offend someone.....
I think that a good preacher, a really good preacher, would present all aspects of the possibility of her past in all degrees of presumptional possibilities making it clear that we really do not know, with the focus/emphasis on the fact that Jesus, through the Cross, has provided forgiveness to all for all.
That by that forgiveness, we can go to friends and family and acquaintences - and be a witness.
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Good Night, Room! *smile* Have a wonderful sleep tonight and may His Holy Angels watch over you! *smile*
All Praise to Thee, My God, This Night
Melody - "Tallis' Canon", Thomas Tallis, c. 1567
Thomas Ken, 1695
All praise to Thee, my God, this night
For all the blessings of the light.
Keep me, oh, keep me, King of kings,
Beneath Thy own almighty wings.2. Forgive me, Lord, for Thy dear Son,
The ill that I this day have done
That with the world, myself and Thee,
I, ere I sleep, at peace may be.3. Teach me to live that I may dread
The grave as little as my bed.
Teach me to die that so I may
Rise glorious at the awe-ful Day.4. Oh, may my soul on Thee repose,
And may sweet sleep mine eyelids close,
Sleep that shall me more vigorous make
To serve my God when I awake.5. When in the night I sleepless lie,
My soul with heavenly thoughts supply;
Let no ill dreams disturb my rest,
No powers of darkness me molest.6. Dull Sleep of Sense me to deprive,
I am but half my time alive;
Thy faithful Lovers, Lord, are griev'd,
To lye so long of Thee bereav'd.7. But though Sleep o'er my frailty Reigns
Let it not hold me long in Chains;
And now and then let lose my Heart,
Till it an Hallelujah dart.8. The faster Sleep the Senses binds,
The more unfetter'd are our Minds;
O may my Soul, from matter free,
Thy loveliness unclouded see!9. O when shall I in endless Day,
Forever chase dark Sleep away,
And Hymns with the Supernal Choir
Incessant Sing and never tyre!10. O may my Guardian while I sleep
Close to my Bed his Vigils keep,
His Love Angelical instill,
Stop all the Avenues of Ill.11. May he Celestial Joys rehearse,
And thought to thought with me converse
Or in my stead all the Night long,
Sing to my God a Grateful Song.12. Praise God, from whom all blessings flow;
Praise Him, all creatures here below;
Praise Him above, ye heavenly host:
Praise Father, Son, and Holy Ghost.Philippians 4: 4 Rejoice in the Lord always; again I will say, Rejoice. 5 Let your reasonableness be known to everyone. The Lord is at hand..........
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Milford,
Here’s another tidbit for savoring: The Disciples went into town to get vitals, but Jesus stayed at the well. Then the woman approaches and the conversation ensues. Not knowing the full disclosure of her past, it is interesting a part of discourse is her current situation. Would she have been so eager to confront many men as opposed to just one, and that being a stranger, at the well?
The ‘sixth hour’ must represent a time when others are away from the well, be it morning noon or evening, whatever we can calculate, the Spirit led Jesus to that moment of divine intervention. She apparently was a church go-er, she knew the Scriptures, so much so that when she went to tell the others that they went with her – so again there is an implied thought that we are missing….
Also note that, she and He were alone, again giving credible witness that God Inspired John for that exact time to write that exact conversation – remember they were alone.
Have a good evening....
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Milford Charles Murray said:
doesn't necessarily says she divorced all of them .... They could all have died, of course. The Samaritans claimed to follow Moses; and I wonder if "I Divorce Thee" I Divorce Thee! I Divorce Thee" was part of their tradition. Will have to try to look that up one of these days.
Obviously I pulled the trigger too quickly, eh? *smile*
23 The same day some Sadducees came to him, saying there is no resurrection; and they asked him a question, saying, 24 "Teacher, Moses said, ‘If a man dies childless, his brother shall marry the widow, and raise up children for his brother.’ 25 Now there were seven brothers among us; the first married, and died childless, leaving the widow to his brother. 26 The second did the same, so also the third, down to the seventh. 27 Last of all, the woman herself died. 28 In the resurrection, then, whose wife of the seven will she be? For all of them had married her."Mt 22.23-28
george
gfsomselיְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן
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It would serve all better if we stop imposing our 24 hour (of 60 minutes each) notation on a culture that didn't use it. The Jews always had 12 equal divisions to a day, called "hours" but they aren't the same length as our "hours" because they vary according to the length of the day (from our POV). Such terms as "6am", "3pm", 6pm" are inaccurate most of the time and create the sense that there is precise time when there isn't (from our POV).
The "day" begins at first light, dawn, or just slightly before depending on your location.
3rd hour = midway between dawn and the 6th hour.
6th hour = When the sun is its highest. Mid day.
9th hour = midway between mid day and the assumed sunset (remember that they didn't actually know when a future event would occur but they were able to make a reasonable guess)
If there was such a thing, the 12th hour would be end of the day, sunset, just before nightfall,evening.
A Jewish "day" (a full 'day' - a night and a day, somewhat equal to what we would call a 24-hour day) begins at sunset, nightfall, evening and ends at sunset.
So...
Nicodemus? He came at night (after the day had ended) according to John 3:1. "6 pm" is a presumption not in the text. "Night' is just that. Any time after the sunset to before the sun rose. It's more likely that it was earlier than midnight rather than in 'the wee hours', but that's the best you can say. Given Nicodemus position and his apparent need for stealth, later in the evening is much likelier than just after sunset.
The woman at the well? 6pm? Not possible. She cam at the sixth hour which was midday, the usual meaning of hte words. Also consider:
1) Jesus sat down at the well because he had become tired from the journey (John 4:4). The disciples had carried on into the town to get some food (John 4:8). If it was evening (this "6pm") it would have made more sense for him to continue on to the town (a short distance away) and find a place for the night. The simplest sense is that it was mid day and he was taking a break while the disciples got food.
2) She went into the town and told the townspeople and they came out of the town to see Jesus. While this was happening the disciples were telling Jesus to eat. In the evening, after dark, with probably little light? In the afternoon makes more sense.
And it doesn't much matter whether it was more usual to get water earlier in the day. Maybe she was running late. Maybe she had kids who needed a bath. Maybe she was watering her garden. Maybe she slept in. Maybe she was thirsty. Maybe she was hanging about with nothing better to do than chat with this guy who seemed like a nice chap. Maybe it was a really hot day and she needed a nice cold drink.
John 1:39 says it was about the tenth hour. It was about two thirds of the way through the afternoon (midday to sunset = 6 "hours", 10=6+4 so 4/6 or 2/3 of the time between midday and sunset). Makes sense given the distance and the encroaching end of the day and their desire to hear what Jesus had to say abut the Kingdom of God.
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Re the side track discussions, the OP has asked politely not to do this. Please respect his wishes. Thank you.
PS. What's with the abundance of colour and large fonts? it's really helpful when used sparingly. Overuse makes it LOUD and more likely to be ignored eventually.
I know, I could have made all that shine and shake and shiver nad twinkle but I held back from that particular temptation :-)
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Thanks PetrosD for the colorful post. I was saving this for a latter time, but now it seems appropriate. It helps to understand some of what PetrosD is attempting to say.
They could ‘tell time’ within a relatively accurate sense…..some may find this interesting reading, the main theme is "sundial"
The ancient Hebrews did not have such a rigid system of divisions. Instead the following terms appear: ‘rising of the morning’ (Neh. 4:21), ‘dawning of the day’ (Job. 3:9), ‘light of the morning’ (2 Sam. 23:4), ‘morning’ (Ps. 55:17), ‘noon’ (Ps. 55:17), ‘noonday’ (Job. 5:14), ‘twilight’ (Prov. 7:9), ‘evening’ (Prov. 7:9) and ‘dark night’ (Prov. 7:9; Gen. 1:5). The time of day could also be fixed by reference to certain activities that normally took place at a certain time, one example being ‘the time of the evening, even the time that women go out to draw water’ (Gen. 24:11). Thus midday was the ‘heat of the day’ (Gen. 18:1). The later hours of the afternoon were defined by the long shadows (Jer. 6:4) and the early morning by ‘until the day break, and the shadows flee away’ (S. of S. 2:17). But the system of dividing the night into watches is not completely missing among the ancient Hebrews, who probably borrowed the practice from the Babylonians. The first watch was named the ‘beginning of the watches’ (Lam. 2:19); the second, the ‘middle watch’ (Judg. 7:19) and the last, the ‘morning watch’ (1 Sam. 11:11). The Babylonians divided the day into equal parts by using sundials. The Syrians adopted this division from them. There is no indication in the Bible of such a division, although a time-measuring device, the sundial of Ahaz (Isa. 38:8; 2 Kgs. 20:9), is mentioned. The basic difference between the Babylonian and biblical conception of time is that the first began the day in the morning, it was the other way around with the Hebrews, whose festivals began in the evening of the day preceding the feast (Exod. 12:18, etc.).(Avraham Negev, The Archaeological Encyclopedia of the Holy Land, 3rd ed. (New York: Prentice Hall Press, 1990).)
SUNDIAL — a device for measuring time by the position of the sun in the sky. The word dial (KJV), or sundial (NKJV), occurs only twice in the Old Testament, both times in connection with the miracle of the healing of King Hezekiah (2 Kin. 20:11; Is. 38:8). The word itself is derived from a Hebrew verb that means “to go up.” This root word appears frequently in the Old Testament in its usual meaning of “step” or “stair.”
Some scholars suggest that the sundial mentioned in the Bible actually is not a dial at all but a stairway. This stairway may have been constructed in such a way that a shadow cast by a stationary post or pillar climbed the stairs at the rate of one every half hour. The Greek historian, Herodotus, mentions the use among the Babylonians of a sundial marked off in this fashion.
SUNDIAL OF AHAZ — time-keeping device by which God gave Hezekiah the sign that he would be healed (2 Kin. 20:1–11; Is. 38:4–8). Hezekiah asked that the sun’s shadow go backward ten degrees or steps as a sign of his healing. This “dial” was probably not a small disk, as modern readers might suppose, but an escalating stairway on which the sun cast its shadow higher and higher during the day. The biblical writers identified this stairway with Ahaz, probably because it was constructed during his reign. Also see Sundial. (Nelson's New Illustrated Bible Dictionary, ed. Ronald F. Youngblood, F. F. Bruce, R. K. Harrison and Thomas Nelson Publishers (Nashville, TN: Thomas Nelson, Inc., 1995).)
**
This eastern area contains one of the best preserved ancient monuments in Greece, a tall octagonal marble tower containing sculptured images of the eight winds around the top of its eight sides, and popularly called the Tower of the Winds. It was a huge water clock, sundial and weathervane, and it served as a public timepiece for the city. We can well imagine Paul checking the time of day by this clock while he carried on his teaching in this forum. (Stanley E. Porter and Craig A. Evans, Dictionary of New Testament Background : A Compendium of Contemporary Biblical Scholarship, electronic ed. (Downers Grove, IL: InterVarsity Press, 2000).)
**
20:11. shadow of the stairway of Ahaz. The “shadow of the stairway of Ahaz” may have been a type of sundial. The Qumran Scroll of Isaiah 38:8 renders this phrase “on the dial of the Ahaz roof chamber.” A similar idea may be a house model excavated in Egypt that contains two flights of stairs for telling time. On the other hand the structure may have been simply steps leading to a roof or higher structure where shadows were cast at a certain time of the day. The text here does not mention that the structure was used to tell time. Alternatively it may have been something that was used to worship astral deities. If it does represent a mechanism for telling time, it would be the only mention of such a device in the Old Testament. Sundials are known in the Old Testament world from Babylon and Egypt, with archaeological samples going back to the fifteenth century b.c. (Victor Harold Matthews, Mark W. Chavalas and John H. Walton, The IVP Bible Background Commentary : Old Testament, electronic ed. (Downers Grove, IL: InterVarsity Press, 2000), 2 Ki 20:11.)--
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sundial#History
There is more that leads into the NT, but I am sure you will find it, now that you are pointed in the right direction.....
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Petros ... this is what's called a 'forum'. Not a Q&A. I can't imagine how many threads I've started, only to see them escape into humor, a few arguments, and who knows. At first I felt disrespected. And as you might imagine, it was the latter that was the real problem ... demanding others to conform to 'me'. It's been an excellent lesson for me and one I continue to learn.
On a forum, discussion moves this way and that, rarely ending up where it started. But there's definite wisdom in that, due to 'search'. If OPs successfully demanded compliance, so many subjects covered would not be achieved.
And I'd still be demanding 'respect'.
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
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"Attempting to say"? Well,thank you for clearing that up and letting people know what I was trying to say. Where would we be without Google,Wikipedia, and those who have mastered the skill of copying and pasting from them.
You were joking, right? Oh, you weren't. That's too bad 'cos it was funny if you were. :-)
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PetrosD,
What I posted did not come from the net, other than the wiki referral, all have source at the end. But I could have made multiple pics.......
Sorry if it was misunderstood...
Thanks, R4m.
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