How about the works of Dietrich Bonhoeffer?
If not everything, can we get The Cost of Discipleship?
How about the works of Dietrich Bonhoeffer? If not everything, can we get The Cost of Discipleship?
I would buy that!
Jack
Fortress publishes a lot of Bonhoeffer and is nearing the completion of the Dietrich Bonhoeffer Works in English. Fortress has indicated that they will produce an electronic version upon completion. Since they have used Logos for other electronically published titles, I sure hope they do for Bonhoeffer. This critical edition set would be a spectacular resource, and of course since it is his complete works, it includes Discipleship, Letters and Parers, Ethics, and Life Together and much more.
Dudley
Fortress publishes a lot of Bonhoeffer and is nearing the completion of the Dietrich Bonhoeffer Works in English. Fortress has indicated that they will produce an electronic version upon completion. Since they have used Logos for other electronically published titles, I sure hope they do for Bonhoeffer. This critical edition set would be a spectacular resource, and of course since it is his complete works, it includes Discipleship, Letters and Parers, Ethics, and Life Together and much more. Dudley
Great! I hope it works out that way. I bought several Fortress publications that came with Libronix versions included with the hardcopy book. A great value. Also, it seems they are quick to get to market once they start on something. Hopefully we will see this Fortress/Libronix relationship continue.
I would like to see the work of Bonhoeffer in Logos too!
"The Cost of Discpleship" would be a good electronic book. I imagine that book would be along the line of John MacArthur's "The Gospel According to Jesus" and "The Gospel According to the Appostles". I'm assuming Bonhoeffer's position is lordship salvation, based on him being quoted in John MacArthur's books.
Chris, I am not sure what you mean by lordship salvation. I can tell you that Dietrich Bonhoeffer was a (very good) Lutheran theologian. Thus, Bonhoeffer's view of salvation was a very Lutheran view of salvation. If you had asked Dietrich when he was saved, he would have replied with something like "around 1900 years ago with the birth, life, death, and resurrection of Jesus.
If you had asked Dietrich when he was saved, he would have replied with something like "around 1900 years ago with the birth, life, death, and resurrection of Jesus.
That would have been a good answer too. Another good question is "What do you consider 'salvation' to mean? Is it just "fire insurance"?
MacArthur quoted Bonhoeffer in "The Gospel According to the Appostles" under the chapter "Cheap Grace". MacArthur's position is a lordship position which is hard for me to explain. John MacArthur's explains lordship.........
Here is an excerpt from MacArthur's book quoting and commenting on Bonhoeffer.
This sounds like a sermon we had a few months ago at my church. Does your last name began with an M and are you from VA? I like John MacArthur too, have you read Hard To Believe? Don't mean to be nosey but your comments sounds like one someone I know.
Yes I have read "Hard to Believe". I have read a lot of John MacArthur. I just couldn't remember his comment, so I opened his book and did a basic search...great tool!!! BTW, my last name does NOT end in M, but I from Mississippi ("M").[H]
Your comments sounded so much like our Associate Minister and alot of your comments was in a sermon we had at our church (in VA) just a couple months ago. Oh BTW his name is Chris too! Thats way I asked, I thought maybe you were our minister. Perhaps we'll meet in the Kingdom one day real soon! Have a blessed day! [:D]
MacArthur quoted Bonhoeffer in "The Gospel According to the Appostles" under the chapter "Cheap Grace". MacArthur's position is a lordship position which is hard for me to explain. John MacArthur's explains lordship......... What Is “Lordship Salvation” All About?The gospel call to faith presupposes that sinners must repent of their sin and yield to Christ’s authority. That, in a sentence, is what “lordship salvation” teaches.I don’t like the term lordship salvation. I reject the connotation intended by those who coined the phrase. It insinuates that a submissive heart is extraneous or supplementary to saving faith. Although I have reluctantly used the term to describe my views, it is a concession to popular usage. Surrender to Jesus’ lordship is not an addendum to the biblical terms of salvation; the summons to submission is at the heart of the gospel invitation throughout Scripture.Those who criticize lordship salvation like to level the charge that we teach a system of works-based righteousness. Nothing could be further from the truth. Although I labored to make this as plain as possible in The Gospel According to Jesus, some critics continue to hurl that allegation. Others have imagined that I am advocating a new or modified doctrine of salvation that challenges the Reformers’ teaching or radically redefines faith in Christ. Of course, my purpose is just the opposite. MacArthur, J. (2000). The gospel according to the Apostles : The role of works in the life of faith. Originally published: Faith works. Dallas : Word Pub., c1993. Nashville, TN: Word Pub. Here is an excerpt from MacArthur's book quoting and commenting on Bonhoeffer. Cheap grace means grace sold on the market like cheapjacks’ wares.…Cheap grace is not the kind of forgiveness that frees us from the toils of sin. Cheap grace is the grace we bestow on ourselves.Cheap grace is the preaching of forgiveness without requiring repentance, baptism without church discipline, Communion without confession, absolution without personal confession. Cheap grace is grace without discipleship, grace without the cross, grace without Jesus Christ, living and incarnate. Dietrich BonhoefferCheap grace. The term itself is offensive.“Why do you use that expression?” a friend asked. “It just seems to denigrate the grace of God. After all, grace isn’t cheap —it’s absolutely free! Isn’t perfect freeness the very essence of grace?”But “cheap grace” doesn’t speak of God’s grace. It is a self-imparted grace, a pseudograce. This grace is “cheap” in value, not cost. It is a bargain-basement, damaged-goods, washed-out, moth-eaten, second-hand grace. It is a manmade grace reminiscent of the indulgences Rome was peddling in Martin Luther’s day. Cheap? The cost is actually far more than the buyer could possibly realize, though the “grace” is utterly worthless.The term “cheap grace” was coined by a German Lutheran pastor and Nazi resister named Dietrich Bonhoeffer. Bonhoeffer was hanged in 1945 by SS guards, but not before his writings had left their mark. Bonhoeffer’s theological perspective was neo-orthodox, and evangelicalism rightly rejects much of his teaching. But Bonhoeffer spoke powerfully against the secularization of the church. He correctly analyzed the dangers of the church’s frivolous attitude toward grace. After we discard the neo-orthodox teachings, we do well to pay heed to Bonhoeffer’s diatribe against cheap grace:Cheap grace means grace as a doctrine, a principle, a system. It means forgiveness of sins proclaimed as a general truth, the love of God taught as the Christian “conception” of God. An intellectual assent to that idea is held to be of itself sufficient to secure the remission of sins. The Church which holds the correct doctrine of grace has, it is supposed, ipso facto a part in that grace. In such a Church the world finds a cheap covering for its sins; no contrition is required, still less any real desire to be delivered from sin. Cheap grace therefore amounts to a denial of the Incarnation of the Word of God.Cheap grace means the justification of sin without the justification of the sinner. Grace alone does everything, they say, and so everything can remain as it was before. “All for sin could not atone.” The world goes on in the same old way, and we are still sinners “even in the best life” as Luther said. Well, then, let the Christian live like the rest of the world, let him model himself on the world’s standards in every sphere of life, and not presumptuously aspire to live a different life under grace from his old life under sin.Cheap grace has not lost its worldly appeal since Bonhoeffer wrote those words. If anything, the tendency to cheapen grace has eaten its way into the heart of evangelical Christianity. The no-lordship movement has led the way in legitimizing and institutionalizing cheap grace in American fundamentalism. No-lordship teaching tragically misconstrues and misapplies the biblical doctrine of grace. While verbally extolling the wonders of grace, it exchanges the real item for a facsimile. This bait-and-switch tactic has confounded many sincere Christians. MacArthur, J. (2000). The gospel according to the Apostles : The role of works in the life of faith. Originally published: Faith works. Dallas : Word Pub., c1993. Nashville, TN: Word Pub.
MacArthur, J. (2000). The gospel according to the Apostles : The role of works in the life of faith. Originally published: Faith works. Dallas : Word Pub., c1993. Nashville, TN: Word Pub.
Chris, I want to say thanks for this information. While this is a little off topic, I do want to respond to your post (I am a fan of Dietrich Bonhoeffer).
Based solely on what you have posted, and I cannot speak for Bonhoeffer himself, I believe Bonheoffer would reject the concept of "lordship salvation." Even the quote you used from MacArthur said, "Bonhoeffer's theological perspective was neo-orthodox, and evangelicalism rightly rejects much of his teaching. But Bonhoeffer spoke powerfully against the secularization of the church. He correctly analyzed the dangers of the church's frivolous attitude toward grace. After we discard the neo-orthodox teachings, we do well to pay heed to Bonhoeffer's diatribe against cheap grace."
Note: here are some other theologians that had a theological perspective that was neo-orthodox: Karl Barth, Reinhold Niebuhr, William Stringfellow, and Paul Tillich.
Note 2: Bonhoeffer and his theology had an impacted on Martin Luther King Jr. and Archbishop Desmond Tutu.
What MacArthur said about Bonhoeffer and cheap grace is correct, but I believe this little bit of Bonhoeffer provides only a portion of what Bonhoeffer was saying. (I am assuming that the rest of what Bonhoeffer was saying was not relevant to the point MacArthur was attempting to make).
We need to keep in mind on when and where Bonhoeffer was writing this book. If I remember correctly, Bonhoeffer was not in prison when we wrote this book, but he was part of the underground that tried to kill Adolf Hitler. At that time, the German government only recognized clergy who stated that the Nazis were correct. Bonhoeffer said no; Bonhoeffer refused to get in bed with the German government.
In Discipleship, Bonhoeffer was comparing and contrasting cheap grace and costly grace. Using the background information, you can feel Bonhoeffer's passion for Jesus, and his anger to his fellow clergy members who decided that it was safer to go to bed with the Nazi regime than it was to proclaim God's message. I used part of this book for a sermon, and this is what I used.
Cheap grace means grace as bargain-basement goods, cut-rate forgiveness, cut-rate comfort, cut-rate sacrament; grace as the church's inexhaustible pantry, from which it is doled out by careless hands without hesitation or limit. Cheap grace means justification of sin but not the sinner. Because grace alone does everything, everything can stay in its old ways. Cheap grace is preaching forgiveness without repentance; it is baptism with the discipline of community; it is the Lord's Supper without confession of sin; it is absolution without personal confession. Cheap grace is grace without discipleship, grace without the cross, grace without the living, incarnate Jesus Christ.
Costly grace is the hidden treasure in the field, for the sake of which people go and sell with joy everything they have. It is the costly pearl, for whose price the merchant sells all that he has; it is Christ's sovereignty, for the sake of which you tear out an eye if it causes you to stumble. It is the call of Jesus Christ which causes a disciple to leave his nets and follow him.
Costly grace is the gospel which must be sought again and again, the gift which has to be asked for, the door at which one has to knock.
It is costly, because it calls to discipleship; it is grace, because it calls us to follow Jesus Christ. It is costly, because it costs people their lives; it is grace because it thereby makes them live. It is costly, because it condemns sin; it is grace because it justifies the sinner. Above all, grace is costly, because it was costly to God, because it costs God the life of God's son - "You were bought with a price" - and because nothing can be cheap to us which is costly to God. Above all, it is grace because the life of God's Son was not too costly for God to give in order to make us live. God did, indeed, give him up for us. Costly grace is the incarnation of God (Bonhoeffer, Discipleship, p 43-45).
Therefore, not only do Bonhoeffer's words say to us to proclaim Jesus, I also believe that Bonhoeffer is telling us not to get in bed with our government. I am going to stop here or else I will start preaching.
I'll second that!
Yes! I do hope that Bonhoeffer will become available in the Logos format. As soon as it will be available I will buy it.
+1
+1 [Y]
I'm interested in Bonhoeffer too. Actually it would be great if Logos would include the German text too.
Anyone here for more German text and perhaps also some German dictionaries? [:D]
I'm interested in Bonhoeffer too. Actually it would be great if Logos would include the German text too. Anyone here for more German text and perhaps also some German dictionaries?
Anyone here for more German text and perhaps also some German dictionaries?
I don't read German, but oh boy, if Logos were to open up the floodgates to German texts, there are a lot of theologians whose original works were in German and probably a lot more who haven't been translated yet. And I bet the German Logos user community would be very happy and would quadruple overnight!
A German dictionary would be good for those of use who don't speak German but come across the occasional German word or phrase in a theological work. Perhaps this would be a good Logos resource to have:
And while we're at it, how about:
(sorry, I guess this thread has been completely hijacked now)
I'm interested in Bonhoeffer too. Actually it would be great if Logos would include the German text too. Anyone here for more German text and perhaps also some German dictionaries? I don't read German, but oh boy, if Logos were to open up the floodgates to German texts, there are a lot of theologians whose original works were in German and probably a lot more who haven't been translated yet. And I bet the German Logos user community would be very happy and would quadruple overnight! A German dictionary would be good for those of use who don't speak German but come across the occasional German word or phrase in a theological work. Perhaps this would be a good Logos resource to have: Modern Theological German: A Reader and Dictionary, Helmut Ziefle And while we're at it, how about: Dictionary of Latin and Greek Theological Terms: Drawn Principally from Protestant Scholastic Theology, Richard Muller (sorry, I guess this thread has been completely hijacked now)
I would favor the publication of works in German, French, Spanish, Czech etc. This would require an English-<Language> dictionary as well as a <Language>-<Language> dictionary such as Wahrig, Deutches Wörterbuch since most bilingual dictionaries are inadequate in many areas.
Hi George,
Not only because of works in non-english languages but also because of non-english users of Logos. A fully integrated <Language>-<Language> dictionary can be very helpful in both situations.
I agree that a Deustch-Deustch Wörterbuch such as Duden or Wahrig would be a very useful tool. But for the beginner an English <language> dictionary might be more useful (or comprehensible).
A German <->English dictionary that I would really like to see would be the Langenscheidt Enzyklopädisches Wörterbuch Englisch. [A] If Logos have it they'll be the first one to do so (I'll be the first one to buy it too [:P]) and will probably bring in learners of German, since I don't think that anyone has it in electronic format yet.
They've already got:
I'd like to see them add German-English/English-German, and French-English/English-French dictionaries at the very least. There are decent online sites for all of these (and more), but it would be great to have them integrated into Logos so we can look something up when we come across a foreign word, or if we're reading an article in a language we're not fluent in.
Me too!
I agree that a Deustch-Deustch Wörterbuch such as Duden or Wahrig would be a very useful tool. But for the beginner an English <language> dictionary might be more useful (or comprehensible). They've already got: Merriam-Webster's Spanish-English Dictionary (includes English-Spanish as well) I'd like to see them add German-English/English-German, and French-English/English-French dictionaries at the very least. There are decent online sites for all of these (and more), but it would be great to have them integrated into Logos so we can look something up when we come across a foreign word, or if we're reading an article in a language we're not fluent in.
They also have the Diccionario General de la Lengua Española Vox . An entry picked at random:
dactilar adj. De los dedos o relacionado con ellos. sin digital.
As you can see, this is a Spanish-Spanish dictionary. We need these in other languages as well. We have 2-3 in English, but we could also use them for German, French, Dutch, Czech -- also British and Aussie
Aw, blimey. We don't need a British-British or Aussie-Aussie dictionary. They already know what they're talking about. But we could use British-American and Aussie-American (and why not throw in Canadian, too; the Canucks are royally confused about words and spellings -- being caught between the elephant to their south and the motherland they are still loyal to; most spellings are British - e.g., colour, centre, realise, canceling - but sometimes they go with the American over the British -- e.g., license; and often nobody here really knows the proper Canadian way to spell things -- whether it's a double 'l' or single 'l' in words like canceling is particularly confusing -- since they see so much American text up here; they've also got some unique and fun Canadian words, too: e.g., toque, loonie -- not that these would be of any help in Bible study, mind you [;)])
they've also got some unique and fun Canadian words, too: e.g., toque
They also use that in the US in certain circles, but let's not go there.
On second thought the greatest difficulty Logos faces for offering such (German, Spanish, ... ) resources is the need to handle the numerous inflections possibilities of words in these languages! The Latin dictionaries in Logos aren't working too well at the moment because they can only locate the words that are in their dictionary form(s), but in real life of course most words are inflected. [:(] Logos probably need to partner with some experts in this area if they need to produce these resources. [:(]
OK, I won't go there (that would really be gratuitous thread-hijacking) but I couldn't help notice and be amused that toque and quote (right next to each other above) are anagrams of each other. [:)]
Bad Rosie! Keep your thread hijacking hijinks to where they belong! [^o)][;)]
On second thought the greatest difficulty Logos faces for offering such (German, Spanish, ... ) resources is the need to handle the numerous inflections possibilities of words in these languages! The Latin dictionaries in Logos aren't working too well at the moment because they can only locate the words that are in their dictionary form(s), but in real life of course most words are inflected. Logos probably need to partner with some experts in this area if they need to produce these resources.
That shouldn't be an insuperable problem for Logos. What you would need to do is to tag these resources for their lemma and language.
OK, I won't go there (that would really be gratuitous thread-hijacking) but I couldn't help notice and be amused that toque and quote (right next to each other above) are anagrams of each other. Bad Rosie! Keep your thread hijacking hijinks to where they belong!
OK, I won't go there (that would really be gratuitous thread-hijacking) but I couldn't help notice and be amused that toque and quote (right next to each other above) are anagrams of each other.
Bad Rosie! Keep your thread hijacking hijinks to where they belong!
A man after my own heart ! [:D]
I think an English-German publication of DB's work would be highly appreciated. The majority of Lutheran scholars know German and will at some time while reading an English DB translation wonder, what was the expression DB used in his original text. It is not any more exotic than having the NT in Greek or the OT in Hebrew, when you come to think of it.
It is not any more exotic than having the NT in Greek or the OT in Hebrew, when you come to think of it.
...or the Apostolic Fathers in Greek and English (which we have available).
Good point! Next we'll be wanting Bonhoeffer's works in English-German Interlinear... [;)]
Good point! Next we'll be wanting Bonhoeffer's works in English-German Interlinear...
Deleted because a double-double mouse click made a double entry post..
Any progress on Bonhoeffer inclusion?
Thanks, Joe
I would certainly be a purchaser of Bonhoeffer books! *smile*
*smile* indeed MC if we could get this on the Pre-Pub page.
I, too, would be interested in such a collection. Especially if they throw in Eric Metaxas' excellent biography Bonhoeffer: Pastor, Martyr, Prophet, Spy.
Bonhoeffer's case is particularly difficult. The international scope of his published works, the date of his death, the unpublished works yet to be printed, the convoluted copyright laws, the translation work done by others; these all factor into the process Logos must navigate to bring us a collection. Just check out Cornell University's breakdown of US copyright details and you will see what I mean: http://copyright.cornell.edu/resources/publicdomain.cfmAnd that does not consider international treaties or other sovereign nations. (Although the USA's laws are trumped by treaties.)
Can't we just get these wonderful works by a powerful democratic vote? I'll add another vote to the pile.
Maybe Logos can pull a fast one like "the other guys" did with the Dead Sea Scrolls; just publish everything and wait for everybody else to sue.
On Scrolls, Artefacts and Intellectual Property is available for $170 or save a bundle and get it here.
note: the Studies in the Dead Sea Scrolls collection is included in the Portfolio Edition.
Oh yes!!! I'd like to have the complete German works by:
Just to name some of my favourites ... Could we have them, please? [:P]
FYI...
Luther: http://www.logos.com/product/1663/luthers-works
Barth: http://www.logos.com/product/5758/barths-church-dogmatics
Another vote for the works of Bonhoeffer.
FYI... Luther: http://www.logos.com/product/1663/luthers-works Barth: http://www.logos.com/product/5758/barths-church-dogmatics
Theolobias was asking for them in the original German.
I don't read German, but I'd love to have the English translations of many of those other authors' works in Logos, particularly:
Friedrich Schleiermacher Philipp Jakob Spener Johann Christoph Blumhardt Martin Buber Rudolf Bultmann Paul Tillich Hans Urs von Balthasar Dietrich Bonhoeffer Helmut Thielicke Wolfgang Pannenberg Jürgen Moltmann Karl Rahner Josef Ratzinger / Benedikt XVI. Eberhard Jüngel
but I from Mississippi ("M").
And I gave a moment of silence as you mention the Holy Land.
Edit: Oookay I just noticed this was posted well over a year ago!
Theolobias was asking for them in the original German. I don't read German, but I'd love to have the English translations of many of those other authors' works in Logos, particularly:
Yes Theolobias was asking for the original German. But Amy was asking for that and some dictionaries.
These are so many worthwhile theological works in German (and Dutch) it is probably a good idea for the younger people to learn those languages and enjoy a lifetime of better understanding of those works. My sons, ages 9 and 11, are learning German. Who knows, will they use that ability to study German theologians in the original German using Logos version 10?
FYI... Luther: http://www.logos.com/product/1663/luthers-works Barth: http://www.logos.com/product/5758/barths-church-dogmatics Theolobias was asking for them in the original German.
The German would be good. My German is getting increasingly rusty. One of these days it might become as rusty as my Czech -- which is to say "non-existent."
Hans Urs von Balthasar(...)Karl RahnerJosef Ratzinger / Benedikt XVI.
(But it would have to be in translation, I'm afraid. An article I can deal with, if I absolutely have to, but not whole books.)
Thanks Rosie, I did not catch that statement in the Theolobias' post.
