Rich client vs. web applications for Bible study

I set up a new laptop for my wife recently. Aside from an alternate web browser, Logos Bible Software was the only thing I installed.

Setting up a machine used to involve installing dozens of applications, and for me there still are quite a few. But for my wife, a computer is now just a terminal for the Internet.

I have always said that you still need rich client applications for things like Word processing, spreadsheets, etc. and that online solutions like Google docs won't work. But my son does all his schoolwork in Google docs and rarely uses Microsoft Office.

I now regularly make use of four computers -- a desktop at home and work, and a light and a heavy laptop for different purposes. I don't install everything I use on each machine; I either use web apps or remote desktop to my "big box".

In the past, Logos users have indicated a strong preference for "rich client" applications, that run offline and don't require an Internet connection.

We're building the next version of Logos that way -- and taking advantage of today's computer power to make it very rich, and very cool.

But are we missing the boat on the next generation of users? And are even us die-hard-big-iron types getting tired of installing apps? Are you ready for your Bible software to live "in the cloud?"

You want the power, speed, and "don't need Wi-Fi" access of an offline application. But what about the people who aren't using Logos? Would an online offering help us reach a bigger audience of Bible students?

I'm interested in your observations, and in how your own online/offline mix is or isn't chaning.

Thanks!

-- Bob

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Jack Caviness

Bob

I for one would not want my Bible software to be web based. For one thing, my ISP is not all that reliable. When the internet goes down, I must wait for Time-Warner to finally come out and repair their switch box.

How much computing power would be required to service all those customers?

When I pay for something, I want it on my computer so I can access it when I want to access it.

Jack

Jack Caviness

As I read the other threads in this forum, I noticed one that spoke extensively about web connection speed—or rather, the lack thereof.

That is one more reason why I would not want my Bible study options to be web-based.

Jack

(‾◡◝)

Bob,

Would you have to incorporate a subscription revenue model to keep the "cloud" floating?

Bohuslav Wojnar

I would have no problem with it ONLY if that would be an alternative to the client application. I need Bible software also as I travel in less privilaged countries and not always Internet connection is obvious. I use Logos all the time and that would really limit me. I agree with Jack, I want to have the books I buy on my computer. I know however there are many, especially young people, who would use Internet based Logos very much. However usually they use free stuff. Would they pay for the robust Bible software online? I don't know. By the way, I am really looking forward to the version 4 :-)

davidphillips

I agree that I would in no way want my access to bible software limited by an internet connection. On the other hand, I can see the value of being able to access something while away from my computer. I think there could be great value in this type of service, but only as a complimentary option. Perhaps a scaled down searchable library (like the search capabilities on bible.logos.com) that could be accessed remotely.

Juanita

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/218#Comment_218

I am all for the "rich client" way of using Libronix but I am not sure if it is because I am a senior citizen. (I am wondering if younger users would be more apt to be in favor of the web application approach.) If I need a web connection to use Libronix, then I am dependent on my internet provider and my computer; if I don't need a web connection, then I am only dependent on my computer being up and running well. The fewer variables, the better--for me. As it is, sometimes I feel TOO dependent on my computer for Bible study.

George Somsel

Personally I want everything on my machine. That way, if anything should go wrong , , , go wrong . . . go wrong (a la West World), I can still work even if I need to operate off a UPS for a time. There's always the possiblity of simply being unable for various reasons to connect to the internet. As for those who don't use Logos, is there any reason to think that having it available on the internet is going to lure them into using it? I imagine that the reason most don't use Logos is for one of several reasons:

1. They simply aren't interested in Bible study -- forget it since until they change their interests they aren't going to use it. 
2. They have no interest in using a computer for anything -- again, forget it since they'll never use it. 
3. They prefer another program -- hard to believe, I know. 
4. They don't want to or can't spend the money.

Obviously, I think that #3 is the big reason for anyone who has an interest in Bible study and isn't afraid of computers wouldn't use the program. I assume that you aren't contemplating making access free so we're right back to #4.

George Somsel

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/220#Comment_220

Hmm, I was under the impression that HTML was allowed here. Apparently not.

David Ladiges

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/221#Comment_221

There is an HTML icon on the edit screen - if you need to input HTML click into that mode to do so, otherwise your HTML gets displayed as is.

Dave Hooton

My online use isn't changing - I still use a web browser for Email when I'm in an Internet Cafe!
The Cafe crowd may be interested because they don't have their own computer [:)]

Oz is third world for speed and (high) cost of internet access for just 4 GB of data, but our Labour Government has committed over $40 billion to have broadband in every home (not sure WHEN). Sure we have mobile broadband and ADSL2 but there are too many 'grey' spots in the cities and 'black' spots in the country. I'm fortunate to have cable broadband, but they may start digging up the streets for fibre-optic very soon.

PS. I wish we could edit quotes when using "Reply" vs this "Quick Reply".

George Somsel

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/227#Comment_227

PS. I wish we could edit quotes when using "Reply" vs this "Quick Reply".

As you can see, it is possible to edit quotes. Highlight what you want before clicking on "Quote."

Dave Hooton

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/229#Comment_229

As you can see, it is possible to edit quotes. Highlight what you want before clicking on "Quote."

Thanks, George. We definitely need some "Sticky" help topics for this Forum.

David Wilson

I want my Logos software to remain on my own machine - NOT in "the cloud" - main reasons for me - I cannot always get to "the cloud" - I travel a lot and find that way too many places charge exhorbitantly for renting me short term access to "the cloud" - more importantly perhaps is the fact that almost everything I used "the cloud" for a decade ago has since evapourated - and in most cases NOT to be replaced by anything better, just evapourated as net fashions come and go. Given that the current version of Logos performs quite nicely even on my Acer Netbook then I can, in practice, take my library anywhere and everywhere; and with the help of my APC universal notebook battery, I can even be away from "the grid" for many hours at a time.

DaveJ

Bob Pritchett

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/220#Comment_220

"3. They prefer another program -- hard to believe, I know."

To the best of our knowledge, we're the best selling product in the category by a wide margin. Our biggest competition is "no software." I don't know if that means online resources only, or just paper books, but there are lots of pastors (and seminary students, apparently) who still aren't using Bible software.

I'm just wondering if the "software" part of that question is the obstacle for some of them...

George Somsel

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/233#Comment_233

Yes, I realize that there is no accounting for tastes. Some people even like cream and sugar in their coffee -- would you believe that ?

David Wilson

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/233#Comment_233

I'm just wondering if the "software" part of that question is the obstacle for some of them...

Of those I know who do not use Logos, they fall into two camps:

Those who prefer to read from paper books as a means of getting away from the computer, and
Those who avoid using computers for anything where another option exists.

While others may have different experiences, I have yet to encounter anyone who prefers "cloud" software (eg: does MOST of their research/reading from web pages and wikis etc) to software installed on their own computer.

TCBlack

There's no chance I would be happy with Logos in the cloud. And that comes from a guy who considers himself more net savvy than the average user.

I use Google calendar and a few other cloud components but only because I have local copies of the data.
Living out in the country as I do, internet connections can be tenuous. Most of you "city dwellers" need to remember that you are not like the whole country or for that matter the whole world.
In the cities you may have a fat internet pipe running into every apartment and home but out here in the country we're still working on getting something beyond dial-up in many places. I do happen to have broadband but I'm ahead of the curve where I'm at. Not merely because the technology isn't there but because most of the technology is dependent on line of site wireless connections, more than 3 miles from the telephone switch station and even DSL becomes all but impossible.

All of that forms a basis for disliking cloud only computing. My internet already comes and goes during inclement weather and I would hate to have my study processes cut completely off because of a passing rain cloud.
Moreover this is the status of things in the USA. I cannot help but believe it is mirrored in Australia and in portions of the UK and elsewhere.

Beyond this, I have friends in Haiti where the power is notoriously unstable and forget about the internet. But some of them have laptops that they charge when the power is on so they can study when the power is out. Put Libronix on the cloud and they lose the capacity to work at all.

No, I'm convinced that for global growth, "big iron" is the way to go.

Keep Libronix local.

Mark

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/233#Comment_233

I also want my Libronix version that I pay for to be local on my computer or at least off line. I also travel a lot and do not have constant access to the internet. When traveling in other countries I dont have access to internet. It is very helpful to have it off line and you would lose I am sure a customer base if you went on line only. I know that would finish me. It is simply not what I want and look for in a Bible Program.

What would be even more helpful is if my paid copy of Libronix was not on my computer, but was completely on an external harddrive. I personally think this is the way to go. The reason? As you said, Bob, computers are becoming hubs and I dont think the Libronix program should be tied down to one computer. If I take a trip, do I really need MY computer to access MY Libronix? Could I not simply take an external harddrive and plug it into a computer wherever I am and access my paid program? Perhaps it could be a thought to build a future version so as to have it completely contained on an external drive.

You started an online theological library if I remember correctly. Perhaps statistics on how that is going will tell you if an online version of Libronix would be sellable. Again, if you offer the software online, please also offer it offline as you do now.

Mark

Peter Covert

As much as I do not like it, cloud computing is coming. It is coming because of the advantages it
has. The one main drawback is that you
need a good internet connection. In the
next five years, I believe that we will be able to do everything through our
internet browser that we can do with our client software. In the following ten years, cloud computing
is going to bypass client software.

The number of devices that we will be using to connect to
the net is going to increase, and most of them will not be able to run client
software.

Logos users like to be on the cutting edge of technology. How many Logo users want to be able to read
their books in Kindle? I do not have a
Kindle, but I think it connects to the web.
If not, I think it will sooner or later.
If Logos did cloud computing, people will be able to read their books in
Kindle.

Mark

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/244#Comment_244

It is a good point, and I am sure we will all get used to new technology as it comes along. BUT, while in the USA everyone may have an internet connection at all times (which I am sure one will have to PAY for), it will not be true in all countries of the world. Will it be possible to use Libronix on an airplane? In the so called jungles of Africa? Even in ALL rural places in America?

I can see a day coming when the whole world will be wireless and on internet in every corner. But that day is not today and is not even in the near future. It is still hard to access internet from a park, or the car and even in many homes today. It might be helpful to survey WHERE people use Libronix. I use it in private homes when I travel, in airports where I would have to pay to get online, in parks or in the car when I am traveling...in Poland where I frequently travel and have no internet connnection...

Bohuslav Wojnar

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/246#Comment_246

That is exactly also my point. When I study and I have Internet connection, I google some stuff, I look things in Logos etc. When I am offline or traveling, the first thing I do is I turn to Logos because it is a reservoir of resources and books. Always something to read. I do even my daily devotions in Logos.

The thing I would really appreciate is to have Logos (at least a limited version of it) available via ebook reader, iPhone etc to read in places I am not able to come up with notebook. If that would be the purpose of the cloud Logos, OK. But I want to keep my solid, good local library on my harddisk.

Somebody suggested to have Logos on external disk, well that would be great but than you need computer anyway (yours, somebody's) and also I think it would be a problem with the protection of licence for Logos. So better option IMHO is more portable clone of my Logos on reader, smartphone etc.

George Somsel

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/249#Comment_249

Somebody suggested to have Logos on external disk, well that would be great but than you need computer anyway (yours, somebody's) and also I think it would be a problem with the protection of licence for Logos. So better option IMHO is more portable clone of my Logos on reader, smartphone etc.

It might be nice to be able to take your resources with you to use on any computer which happens to be available, but I wonder if the person considering this thought about the fact that the program itself needs to be installed on the computer he is considering using. You can't simply "plug and play." Then there is the matter of all of your individual settings such as any bookmarks you may have, your keylinks, etc. This is all do-able, but you would need to spend some time setting up the machine before using it.

Mark

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/252#Comment_252

George

I was the one who suggested a plug and play option and you can use my name . I know Libronix in its current form would need to be installed on a computer. But my suggestion was to revamp Libronix so it would not need to be installed (isn't that what would happen if there was an online version of Libronix? It would not be installed locally). The question is whether it is possible to make the program 'plug and playable'. You say it is not possible. Why not? Let Logos make that decision. There are devices out there that are plug and playable.

Secondly, there would possible be a concern with security. I think today there are ways to protect the security of an external devices. I mean, if people want a kindle setup...well in a way that is an external device....

I personally think the future lies not just in online programs, but also in external pocket devices which has your information, programs you want off line and everything such as Libronix which you can put in your wallet or shirt pocket and use on ANY computer. I think this way because computers are fast becoming hubs. It is not wise to put personal documents on a computer which can crash. it is best to have everything on a small device that can be carried around and used on ANY computer

Mark

tom

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/246#Comment_246

There will always be times when we are not connected to the
net, and we will need to run some sort of client software. Still, I believe Peter is correct. Cloud is coming because of items like iphone
and Kindle.

George Somsel

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/255#Comment_255

Let's try that again. Sorry for the previous. It seems that it didn't display the section of text I intended to quote so I tried the "Back" button. It didn't work since the blank message was still posted. Drat, drat, double drat !

I was the one who suggested a plug and play option and you can use my name . I know Libronix in its current form would need to be installed on a computer. But my suggestion was to revamp Libronix so it would not need to be installed (isn't that what would happen if there was an online version of Libronix? It would not be installed locally).

It wasn't that I was hesitant to use your name but rather that I didn't recall offhand who said it and was too lazy to look it up.

I don't think an online version would be strictly "plug and play." I think it would probably be necessary to download and install a base program (Libronix). It would be the resources which would be "floating, floating among the floating clouds (or was that "flowers"?)" [Bernstein's "Trouble in Tahiti" if you're not familiar with it).

Mark

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/257#Comment_257

Understood.

Well then, I really dont get the whole idea of online Libronix. I mean, if you have to install something on your computer anyway, then you could not access it anywhere in the world without installing something on someone's computer to access it. Why not just have all resources on an external harddrive? Accomplishes the same thing.

George Somsel

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/259#Comment_259

Don't take my word for it that you would need to install something on the computer first since that may not be the case. Perhaps you'd simply need to open the browser, go to the site and log in. Ask Bob, he'll know. He knows everything about Logos [6]

Wayne

I think there is a growing audience who would appreciate being able to access their Logos materials from online. If I were Logos, I would begin moving quickly towards this area. Those who just want Bibles have plenty of options. But a growing number would love to be able to have access to their Logos library while on the road via the internet. I see netbooks advertised for less than $200. They aren't much, but I would rather haul a little netbook and leave the bigger notebook at home. It may not be adequate for a power search, but would work for background reading, etc. I am sure the younger generation will be be a bigger users of web based computing.

J.R. Miller

Personally, I like Logos and my books on my computer. However, there are a couple options that I think make sense.

1. An "internet" or "Network" version of Logos that churches could purchase and have available for staff and even for a church l"library" where teenagers could come in and study/research.

2. An internet option that would consist of a monthly membership fee whereby people could access all the resources. This might be a good option for some Seminary students who are not sure about the need for a "long term" investment, but need stuff for specific classes and coursework.

George Somsel

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/370#Comment_370

Personally, I like Logos and my books on my computer. However, there are a couple options that I think make sense.

1. An "internet" or "Network" version of Logos that churches could purchase and have available for staff and even for a church l"library" where teenagers could come in and study/research.

2. An internet option that would consist of a monthly membership fee whereby people could access all the resources. This might be a good option for some Seminary students who are not sure about the need for a "long term" investment, but need stuff for specific classes and coursework.

I think there is a site license type of arrangement which is primarily used by seminaries which functions in that manner, but it is on the local computer, not in the clouds.

Mark

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/365#Comment_365

I think there is a growing audience who would appreciate being able to access their Logos materials from online. If I were Logos, I would begin moving quickly towards this area. Those who just want Bibles have plenty of options. But a growing number would love to be able to have access to their Logos library while on the road via the internet. I see netbooks advertised for less than $200. They aren't much, but I would rather haul a little netbook and leave the bigger notebook at home. It may not be adequate for a power search, but would work for background reading, etc. I am sure the younger generation will be be a bigger users of web based computing.

Yes, I undestand this. So here would be my preferences:

1. Be able to purchase books as we do today, downloadable to our machines

2. But at the same time, we have the ability to access our books on the web, anywhere in the world on any machine

Mark

Dave Hooton

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/387#Comment_387

2. But at the same time, we have the ability to access our books on the web, anywhere in the world on any machine

Just direct your Resource Path into the clouds [:D]

[A] But Logos cannot move quickly, for the present time at least! Unless Reader functionality is all that is required.

Mark

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/393#Comment_393

No, I dont want to be misunderstood. I want to direct my resource path to my computer because I want all my resources offline on my machine or on a local harddrive.

But at the same time, if Logos feels it is time and there is a market for an online library, why not allow that option to also be able to access your resources online?

For the person who ONLY wants his resources online, there is a fee

For the person who purchases books for OFFLINE use could for example for a SMALL fee (since he already purchased the stuff offline) or for NO fee, be able to access his personal library (not evereything that Logos owns, just his personal library) on line.

There would of course with any online system be a problem with other companies such as Galaxy or PBB etc which logos does not own. How would they be accessible on any online library system unless a deal was struck with Logos?

Mark

Kevin A. Purcell

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/233#Comment_233

I suppose I'm in a bit of a minority, but I would LOVE a web based solution over a client if it had access to the resources I can now use with my locally installed software. I could see this as being quite a profitable business too for you.

1. You could do a basic site that is free as you are doing now.

2. You could have a fee based system that allows you to access what you own already.

3. You could do a premium based system that allows access to the whole library. I would pay for this third so long as it was reasonable. I would be tickled to death to have this. I think that so long as I could keep things like notes, bookmarks/favorites, highlights in the web client, I would ditch most of my other software and run Logos online alone 90 percent of the time and have a locally installed small footprint for the few times when I don't have web access.

There is another solution that would be a hybrid of both. Install the client software on your computer that is mosty internet based. But then the programs you use regularly could be cached locally so that they would be available offline when you want them. You could even go into the Library manager and select which would be cached locally. But then have the rest online. This way, if I only do devotions on a small netbook or only read a few things on it I could have a small footprint. But on my office PC I could have the larger library that I use most often. When I'm looking for a book to read I could then read it on my ipod client or winmo client version. That would be a huge benefit. You could have a small program that does the basics or login via a browser.

Dave Hooton

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/407#Comment_407

No, I dont want to be misunderstood.

You weren't! Hence the smilies.

It's all possible, but not any time soon!

Paul Golder

I guess for me the biggest thing is the
“Matrix” factor. While I love the internet, and try to make full
use of it, I still want to be able to turn it off, and work without
it at times.

Also, there is the “ownership”
factor. With Libronix on my machine, and the resources, I have
license to, on my hard drive, I feel like I own something. In a thin
client environment, I'm bothered by the fact that I'm just being
allowed to use something that belongs to someone else. While it could
be argued that this attitude is not Biblical, it nevertheless is a
human frailty that one must live with. I can never see myself paying
money to have access to a resource that I can't “hold”
so-to-speak. After all even our Lord entrusts us with personal
stewardship over parts of his creation.

In Christ,

Paul

Don

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/452#Comment_452

One other thing to consider. If I have a license and resource on my computer, and Logos loses the right to sell the resource, I still have it. (Barclay commentaries, Interpretation, etc.) If it is all web-based with an annual subscription, if Logos loses the rights, I lose access.

TCBlack

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/452#Comment_452

...Also, there is the “ownership”
factor. With Libronix on my machine, and the resources, I have
license to, on my hard drive, I feel like I own something. In a thin
client environment, I'm bothered by the fact that I'm just being
allowed to use something that belongs to someone else.

I agree Paul. This is part of what keeps me from using some other cloud services. If (shudder) Logos closes it's doors and my resources are in the clouds than I lose everything I've paid for. If on the other hand, Logos shuts down I still have the resources and the last Libronix program on my computer.

Bohuslav Wojnar

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/485#Comment_485

That is why I would take the "cloud" option only as an alternative to the installed books on my computer. To access my library by other tools like ebook readers and iPhone etc. Also I would use it for temporary borrowing some book for a fee, if the collection is too expensive for me. Logos would function as an academic library to me. It would enrich many of us, I think.

George Somsel

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/503#Comment_503

That is why I would take the "cloud" option only as an alternative to the installed books on my computer. To access my library by other tools like ebook readers and iPhone etc. Also I would use it for temporary borrowing some book for a fee, if the collection is too expensive for me. Logos would function as an academic library to me. It would enrich many of us, I think.

Yes, I would accept the "cloud" option only if I still retained not only the resources I now have on my computer but also the ability to acquire more as they are produced. "Cloud" vs. installed is not an option.

George Somsel

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/256#Comment_256

There will always be times when we are not connected to the net, and we will need to run some sort of client software. Still, I believe Peter is correct. Cloud is coming because of items like iphone and Kindle.

With all of the talk about Kindle I finally got around to checking on it. It would be nice to be able to have other more current electronic resources of a general nature in addition to Logos resources; but at $359.00 plus any resources, I don't think I'll be getting that very soon -- unless someone wants to act as a rich uncle and get it for me. I do use Microsoft Reader, but I only get those resources which I can download free. Let's face it, I'm cheap about some things but profligate with other things.

Mark

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/507#Comment_507

One thing that concerns me...IF cloud computing is the wave of the future, will Logos continue to provide support for those of us who spent much on the purchase of books to make sure that as technology advances, we will continue to be able to load up Libronix and our resources on PCs. Will Libronix work on Windows 20 or on Open source? Because as people have already written, I can accept cloud computing as an option. But if Logos goes to the clouds and stops giving us the option of purchasing our own books, then I would stop investing in resources.

Dave Hooton

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/509#Comment_509

IF cloud computing is the wave of the future, will Logos continue to provide support for those of us who spent much on the purchase of books to make sure that as technology advances, we will continue to be able to load up Libronix and our resources on PCs. Will Libronix work on Windows 20 or on Open source?

There will be a version of Windows 7 that includes an XP licence so that one can run it within a Vitual Machine. I say that because Libronix v3 requires IE6, which is native to all versions of XP. v3 will now work with IE7 & IE8 on XP, Vista and Windows 7 but will it work with IE9, and will Logos care when v4 is introduced? Note that you can still run Logos 2.x on any modern 32-bit Windows OS (it was designed for 16-bit Windows 3.1, before 32-bit Windows 95!).

v4 should work on XP, Vista, Windows 7 and upward provided you load the appropriate version of .NET Framework and MS support it thru to Windows 20! But v3 will become increasingly difficult to run EVEN if 64-bit OS's continue to support 32-bit applications like Libronix.

You will lose some resources going from v3 to v4, even if it offers backwards compatibility - similar to the upgrade from Logos 2.x to Libronix, where many resources were not converted to the new format or not readily available.

George Somsel

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/534#Comment_534

IF cloud computing is the wave of the future, will Logos continue to provide support for those of us who spent much on the purchase of books to make sure that as technology advances, we will continue to be able to load up Libronix and our resources on PCs. Will Libronix work on Windows 20 or on Open source?

There will be a version of Windows 7 that includes an XP licence so that one can run it within a Vitual Machine. I say that because Libronix v3 requires IE6, which is native to all versions of XP. v3 will now work with IE7 & IE8 on XP, Vista and Windows 7 but will it work with IE9, and will Logos care when v4 is introduced? Note that you can still run Logos 2.x on any modern 32-bit Windows OS (it was designed for 16-bit Windows 3.1, before 32-bit Windows 95!).

v4 should work on XP, Vista, Windows 7 and upward provided you load the appropriate version of .NET Framework and MS support it thru to Windows 20! But v3 will become increasingly difficult to run EVEN if 64-bit OS's continue to support 32-bit applications like Libronix.

You will lose some resources going from v3 to v4, even if it offers backwards compatibility - similar to the upgrade from Logos 2.x to Libronix, where many resources were not converted to the new format or not readily available.

I certainly hope we don't lose any resources. I didn't realize that we lost any on the last change. I still have my facsimile edition of the BDB lexicon, and it still works though it always was rather clunky. I'm glad we don't have to use that anymore. I don't know why I keep it. Perhaps sentimental reasons or perhaps just in case I want to see what the original looks like.

Dave Hooton

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/537#Comment_537

I certainly hope we don't lose any resources. I didn't realize that we lost any on the last change.

I slightly over-stated the issue, but it was difficult to get Libronix versions of all Logos 2.x resources - I lost a few for about 2 years until someone kindly sent the upgrades from a newly bought compilation. But some did not get converted or you had to buy the latest version in the new format! The old format can be read, but there are so many caveats for using them in other ways (searching!) that I discarded them until I found the replacements. The same will happen with v4 assuming that it requires a new resource format!

Then don't forget the human factor - many people lose resources without even knowing it! Or don't know what they've lost! Some will lose resources because they give up looking, don't know where to look, or aren't prepared to buy the upgrade/new version.

MJ. Smith

I'm an old-timer main-framer who has yet to master the last 547 functions on my cell phone. None the less, I see a mixtures of the two approaches as potentially valuable. I would be willing to pay a premium to access resources that I use too infrequently to justify puchasing. I already do this by a mixture of multiple programs and web sessions. I don't think, however, that it would be wise to make the application web dependent. The rural area where I grew up still has less than reliable phone/ISP service ... cable? not available, you're dependent on a sattlelite dish which is weather dependent.

I would also love to add "Logos notes" to web pages from other sites -
a technology that is readily available for legal and research apps. Being able to integrate with some of the lectionary commentary, church document and early church writing sites would be a quick way to add functionality that would appeal to a broader base both quickly and cheaply.

MJ. Smith

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/543#Comment_543

I was one who for all intent and purposes lost everything ... or at least the help desk told me that I had.

John McComb

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/233#Comment_233

"3. They prefer another program -- hard to believe, I know."

To the best of our knowledge, we're the best selling product in the category by a wide margin. Our biggest competition is "no software." I don't know if that means online resources only, or just paper books, but there are lots of pastors (and seminary students, apparently) who still aren't using Bible software.

I'm just wondering if the "software" part of that question is the obstacle for some of them...

Well, you know I've tried to spread the news in a lot of places within the Canadian Anglican community and I've gotten nowhere. I've taken my laptop to bible studies, donated software to parishes (not Logos, I'm afraid. That particular church used Macs), tried stiking up discussions about the benefits,.... Nothing.

I've been left with the impression that they are either paranoid about being exposed to evangelical ideas (kind of like when my son was a boy and he wouldn't eat his pizza because the slice he had touched the slice that had the peppers on it) or they just don't want to explore anything that has to do with computers.

On the other hand, Anglican seminaries seem to teach things that just won't hold up under biblical scrutiny (I surmise this because of the number of times I hear these things repeated over and over again by different clergy). Perhaps the idea of a search engine that will almost instantly provide the user with dozens of disagreeing passages, each one requiring yet another equivocal argument is too much to bear.

Uhhhhhhh, by the wey, thes site neads a beter spel checker. The only word underlined in that last sentence was "Uhhhhhhh".

Charles Cherry

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/233#Comment_233

My opinion is that a cloud-based option, with a limited feature set and a few of the basic Bible study tools, but with some of the greatness of Logos - linking, word study reports, and so on - would be very attractive for many users. A lot of my friends at church use the e-Sword program because it is free. I think most would be willing to shell out a little bit for a much better product (e-Sword is great for the price!), perhaps using a subscription model.

I can think of many scenarios where a cloud option would be beneficial - but it should be in addition to the "all on my PC" option, not instead of.

It would be great to be able to access my library from the cloud when I am away from home. I keep Logos on my desktop PC, rather than on my underpowered laptop. It would be great to sit down at any computer and log into my own library from anywhere there is an Internet connection. It would seem easier to keep my library synchronized between different machines that way as well.

So, my vote is YES, Logos should begin developing a cloud-based product that would work in conjuction with, but not replace, the desktop version - perhaps using Silverlight 3.0, which will allow both online and as well as out-of-browser applications.

Stephen DeKuyper

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/616#Comment_616

I agree. I don't think it is necessary to make it an either/or situation (local vs. in the cloud). I would suggest it could also be a combination.

My ideal scenario would be to use Logos primarily on my laptop, but also have the ability to access some or all of it in the cloud. There are times when I am away from my computer, such as when I am on a trip or at a conference and I would like to access it. Furthermore, the natural progression from putting it in the cloud would be that I could then access resources and books on my IPhone and this would be fantastic.

Another thought, which is playing off of what someone else suggested (sorry I forgot who and I am too lazy to check), is to offer online access packages in which I could determine which resources to use. I could definitely see the value of this for my own study. I can't justify the cost of all of the resources I would like to access, but I sure would like to access them from time to time.

Further however, it would open up the possibility of gifting access to some else for a period of time, such as your nephew who is in seminary. I live in China and I am particularly thinking about gifting it to seminary students, seminaries, home churches etc. in developing nations in Asia and Africa. It would be such a blessing to give these people and groups access to this wealth of information which they could never have otherwise. I am aware (probably more than most) that the internet connections can be sketchy and varies from place to place, but I am quite confident the people mentioned above are not going to be pulling out their credit card to spend hundreds if not thousands of dollars on Logos and resources to put on their laptops anytime soon otherwise.