L3 versus L4 versus L5
Comments
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Bradley Grainger (Logos) said:
Libronix DLS 3 was sold with base packages named Bible Study Library, Scholar's Library, Scholar's Library: Gold, etc.
When Logos 4 was announced, it also had Bible Study Library, Scholar's Library, Scholar's Library: Gold, etc.; these packages were, say, 80-90% the same as the LDLS3 versions, but maybe 5-10% of the resources were removed, and 20% were new. (I'm just making these numbers up; I haven't looked up the exact differences.) In addition, Logos 4 included new data sets such as Biblical People and Places, many new reverse interlinears, media resources, etc. Finally, a new top-end package, Platinum was added (and Portfolio above that).
To "crossgrade" from an existing base package to the "same" library for Logos 4 was $100-200 depending on the base package you started with. (Larger base packages had a higher crossgrade price.) To upgrade (from Gold) to the new Platinum base package was around $300. There was also a minimal crossgrade ($70) which just got you most of the new data sets, but none of the other new resources in the new base packages. (And, finally, the updated software could be downloaded for free, but many of the new features didn't work without the databases contained in the new base packages.)
Cool. Thanks for the info. Do you know anything about what might be expected when Logos 5 comes out? Will it probably be a similar scenario? (Some resources removed from packages, some added, some new features, a charge for crossgrade, etc.)
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hi Robert,Robert Wazlavek said:Cool. Thanks for the info. Do you know anything about what might be expected when Logos 5 comes out? Will it probably be a similar scenario? (Some resources removed from packages, some added, some new features, a charge for crossgrade, etc.)
I would not expect an answer from Logos concerning a product that has not been announced, it could get them in trouble when it does come out. Even speaking of generalities can get them into trouble. This being said, I will say that I do expect the same scenario to occur.
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Well I seriously think Logos should start charging a small fee. There are still problems with Logos: many academic titles cost a lot, for example [url="http://www.logos.com/products/search?q=brill"]Brill[/url] and http://www.logos.com/product/3937/the-apostolic-fathers-greek-texts-and-english-translations and I'm still waiting for [url="http://community.logos.com/forums/t/45624.aspx"]REB[/url] and more Catholic theology. It's also a bit annoying that I can't get separate titles from the Hermeneia -series, and individual titles from the [url="http://www.logos.com/products/search?q=believers+church+commentary"]Believers Church Bible Commentary[/url] are a bit expensive. I'm not the type of guy who buys complete commentary -sets. Sometimes I buy commentaries as printed matter.
I knew that, but for example many of the users of the L4 Original Languages -base-package are among the least likely to need the new resources in an L5 OL -base-package.
What I mean, is, that for someone like me who has a low income and high rent to pay (I live in a somewhat modern house in a somewhat large city due to that my girlfriend is here (she is closer to the city) and she is not movable), it's still difficult to buy more items. I'm very content with the choise of base-package I made, but to advance in my studies I should start buying more items at some point, and I have looked at some of the other packages/bundles, other than base-packages that is, and they don't seem to contain what I want. The closest match to what I want, is currently: http://www.logos.com/product/15784/essential-reference-bundle ... but the problem with it, is that it contains too many encyclopedias, and I allready have a printed matter encyclopedia that I bought in the autumn 2011 that is somewhat sufficient for my needs.
A company that has such a wide variety of items to offer, should always look for new ways to make money, especially when major new releases come, such as improvement in speed and improvement of base-packages. If they make more money they could start cutting the regular prices for items that are steep now. Of course I look for discounts, but it's more time-consuming for the customers to look for discounts, than if the regular prices are cut. And most and foremost it's only happenstance if those particular items that You want, get discounted. Of course I agree that big sales are a good way for Logos to make customers pay up, especially such customers who it's not easy to tempt by other means.
I don't buy ONLY books by Catholic authors. But some titles are way too evangelical to be interesting. I have understood from start that Logos is an evangelical company. But there wasn't really any other software that would have been an option, and I would really not have been satisfied with the functionality of Amazon Kindle and I think that Kindle titles are often expensive when considering You can get a printed book for the same price or sometimes lower for a used one and a printed book is really as good as a Kindle e-book. (Note that I'm not the kind of guy who invests a lot in cellular phones.)
Often it also takes Logos a long time to digitalize titles, for example http://www.logos.com/product/18384/popular-patristics-series-part-1 Melito of Sardis is Johannine. (Bad example as I don't know exactly how long it's been in pre-pub, but anyway it's a bit difficult to give a better example since I've only been a customer since April 19. 2012.)
Also, a minor issue is that Logos staff don't seem to be all that enthusiastic about these 2 topics: 4 Esdras and the Johannite Church in the end of the 1st century. Logos is not planning on issuing the few verses of 4 Esdras that are preserved in Gk. I don't want the Raymond E. Brown item about the Johannite Church, I don't like him.
Sorry about going Off Topic, but this was a summary of my concerns. alabama24 said:Unix - I think you are the first person to accuse Logos of not making money.
[...] As others have tried to explain, once you buy a logos resource (book), you own it for life. The software is free. If people ONLY bought a base package and NEVER bought additional resources, logos would be in trouble. That isn't the case.
My suggestion for increased speed in L6, would be that they test re-building parts of the software with bigFORTH, a programming language that is specialized for multitasking-speed, the improvement for the part is many times faster. As they seem to have started programming L5 it's probable too late for them to test that now.alabama24 said:One thing else I think you missed... Occasionally Logos will update the contents of the base packages. Sometimes this is free (these are small updates) , other times the updates are more substantial. users have the option of upgrading for a fee.
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Robert Wazlavek said:
Do you know anything about what might be expected when Logos 5 comes out? Will it probably be a similar scenario?
If you'd clicked the e-mail link towards the top of the page, you would have gotten Bradley's original and longer post, which did include an answer of sorts (essentially, 'yes, probably'). I guess he decided he wasn't really authorized to say even that much, and didn't want to be held to it, so (unless Bob turns up) you're unlikely to get anything more.
That said, any forum user that's been here a while would tell you the same: the most likely scenario is that they do the same thing next time as they've done in the past. In fact, if anything, they seem to go in a 'more things for free' direction: there's been two minor base package updates in my time here, both of them free, and the L4 PB feature is free, while in L3 it was an add-on. But we won't know anything for sure until it's announced (or one of the Pritchetts decides to leak something).
Mac Pro (late 2013) OS 12.6.2
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UNIX ... you are such a refreshing forum member.
But I must say, I was completely on board with the idea of everyone re-purchasing their resources except for the OL people.
But when you mentioned 4Ezdras and the late 1st century, I had to re-think my position. 4Esdras is far too advanced for most Logos users (no offense of course). Anyone that carefully reviews the Christianization of the older Esdras jewish text almost certainly would have to agree with me.
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
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Unix said:
I seriously think Logos is going to loose customers if they betray them by not letting ANY customers (...) get their e-books transfered to L5 for a low cost.
I seriously think Logos is going to loose customers if they betray them by not letting ALL customers get their e-books transfered to L5 for NO cost.
But I don't expect that to happen. I expect it'll be free as in the past.
Unix said:Well I seriously think Logos should start charging a small fee.
You want us who've already payed for our books once to have to pay for them once again, so that you can get your books cheaper? Don't you think that would be a wee bit unfair? It certainly won't make you popular among those of us you want to double-charge.
Unix said:A company that has such a wide variety of items to offer, should always look for new ways to make money
Bob doesn't need any encouragement on that front, believe me. [:)] He could teach that subject. In fact, most of us would probably prefer it if he concentrated a little bit more on his main task, L4, instead of spreading himself so thin.
Unix said:the likeliness that items I would want comes, decreases because somehow they need to make money to afford issuing more e-books
Money isn't really an issue, since no books go into production until they have enough preorders to cover the production costs. Unless they completely miscalculate those costs, they're more or less unable to make a loss on a book. Bob's pretty smart that way. So if 'your' books aren't produced it's more likely because of things like:
- they haven't [yet] managed (or had time) to negotiate a contract with the publisher
- they believe, or know, that there wouldn't be enough buyers [yet] (this may/will change as more Catholics/Orthodox/whatever get onboard)
- they have other resources they're more eager to produce, forcing 'yours' to wait in line
- they may be worried about releasing too many Catholic resources too fast, leaving the intended customers too broke to buy.
Unix said:If they make more money they could start cutting the regular prices for items that are steep now.
Since the prepub system means that the full production costs are covered as soon as a resource ships, they could, theoretically, do that now. However,
- the contract with the publisher may not allow them to split up collections or lower the price (or the amount they have to pay the publisher for each sold book may be so high they can't afford to)
- Logos doesn't seem to like low regular prices; they seem to prefer high regular prices and good/great sales
- if the difference between the prepub price and the regular price gets too small, it becomes a lot harder to convince people to preorder, meaning that we might have to wait a lot longer for things to be produced
- they need a surplus on sold books in order to pay for the development of the free software.
Mac Pro (late 2013) OS 12.6.2
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tom collinge said:MJ. Smith said:
Thanks for posting here, Bob. I'll settle for useful OR way cool.
I would rather have useful over way cool
Me too.
Dennis Miller said:What it's actually been is long enough that we should have a bug free, complete as advertised, product that works quick and smooth on both windows and mac platforms. That we have yet to see.
[Y][Y][Y][Y][Y][Y][Y][Y][Y][Y]
Mac Pro (late 2013) OS 12.6.2
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Everyone can realize that just like any company, Logos makes more money on some items, and less on others. Of course I've noticed that they don't want to make losses on any items.
There must be room to lower the prices of some items.
All this changes over time, or the strategy changes. For example popular Bibles used to be expensive, then the lowered the prices on most of the popular Bibles. That's not a good example as Bibles are a special case. And when collections are split up that basically means a lower price (for those who want only separate titles, but that's a bad example. I can't think of better examples since I haven't followed the Logos forums / looked at what item Logos offers for more than 3 months. Yet another example is that the content and price of base-packages change over time, so why couldn't some adjustment be made to separate items?
I'm sure Logos could look into some of the things I mentioned. I'll take a close look at the Brill items and email Logos a suggestion that one of those gets a new price, + that Logos would produce the few verses that have survived in a Gk fragment of 4 Esdras. I'll save the current prices and look after a long time whether any changes have been made.
One thing that isn't too much to expect, is a change in content of other big packages/bundles than the base-packages, or new packages/bundles other than base-packages.fgh said:books go into production until they have enough preorders to cover the production costs. Unless they completely miscalculate those costs, they're more or less unable to make a loss on a book. Bob's pretty smart that way.
I disagree on that, I don't think 4 Esdras is a Christianized book.
(Btw, I put my replies above the quotes because that's the email standard (that I'm used to at least, I use only my own email, I'm not anyone's secretary, so I don't know for sure), also because the quote is sort of the "less important" part of a post, or something. Sorry I don't know how to express this better.)DMB said:4Esdras is far too advanced for most Logos users (no offense of course). Anyone that carefully reviews the Christianization of the older Esdras jewish text almost certainly would have to agree with me.
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Unix said:
Btw, I put my replies above the quotes
Please don't. That means I generally
- read your words having no idea what you're talking about,
- read the quote and begin to have a vague idea what you're talking about,
- have to go back to the beginning and reread everything to actually get the idea.
That's tiring, annoying and a waste of time.
Unix said:because that's the email standard
In an e-mail you generally write to one person, who presumably remembers what he's written. In a forum thread there may be 10 writers and 200 readers. No one is going to understand what you're talking about unless you make it clear who and what you're replying to.
Mac Pro (late 2013) OS 12.6.2
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This is a side-track from what others are talking about.
As far as some added resources to the higher packages go, I'd really like to see the Anchor Yale Bible Dictionary, The Essential IVP Reference Collection 3, and the IVP Dictionary of the Old Testament Bundle (2 vols.) thrown into the mix.
I've found the AYBD to be a frequently referred to resource by many, so it seems like that one should definitely be incorporated into the higher base packages. Really, it should already be incorporated since it is such a relied on resource.
And as I've used the Faithlife Study Bible, I've noticed especially that the AYBD is cited. But also the items from the The Essential IVP Reference Collection 3 and the IVP Dictionary of the Old Testament Bundle (2 vols.) are cited a lot when appropriate as well. And by a lot, I mean a lot a lot... to the point where the FSB is somewhat frustrating to use because I have none of those resources which cost ~$330 with the Academic Discount, money I don't have right now (and probably won't have soon). And I can only imagine what they cost to others without the discount.
I like the FSB, but if Logos is really looking to make Faithlife a big deal with their Logos software in the future, they definitely need to make them work together better from the get go. Meaning that a lot of the resources used in the FSB should come in the base packages so that a person doesn't subscribe to the FSB only to notice that its half as functional as it should be because the resources it cites have to be bought separate. Just my two cents. If nothing else, it's something for Logos to consider (if they read this).
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Unix said:
There must be room to lower the prices of some items.
Don't forget that Logos generally is not the copyright owner or the publisher of the books they offer. Publishers may set minimum prices to minimize damage to their own profits. There may also be books Logos would like to offer that they can't get permission to offer. Logos has created additional bundles and base packages as well as modified packages/bundles in the last few years so I'm uncertain what you are suggesting that differs from current practice.
As for your desire for 4 Esdras it is translated in the NRSV where Ezra, Nehemiah, 1 Esdras & 2 Esdras refer to Esdras 1-4 receptively. The series that contains Melito entered pre-pub on March 28, 2012 and is the first item from St. Vladimir's in Logos so it may take a bit longer than average.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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Oh yeah, and PLEASE add the remaining 3 volumes newly added to Logos of the New American Commentary that are missing from the higher base packages! At my seminary, they are the standard textbook for our interpretation classes. So those items would definitely be a well appreciated addition!!
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Robert Wazlavek said:
Oh yeah, and PLEASE add the remaining 3 volumes newly added to Logos of the New American Commentary that are missing from the higher base packages! At my seminary, they are the standard textbook for our interpretation classes. So those items would definitely be a well appreciated addition!!
When L4 came out, additional volumes that had been released in series that were in base packages were included in the upgraded base packages.
That was the reason for the cost to upgrade--additional resources that were added. Each existing customer was quoted a customized price for upgrades, based on whether or not they had already purchased those additional volumes. You don't have to pay for the same resource twice in Logos software.
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Sorry about the bashing in this post, other's may not have these problems!
I think they have much work left to do. I allready pointed out one weakness (that there's too many encyclopedias, and that really is a weakness, package-buyers want value and variety for their money so who is asking for TWO encyclopedias to be included in a package?), and another is that they throw in a lot of secondary material in large packages other than the base-packages, instead of top-notch or even intermediate - and I can see where that is comming from - cheaper licenses and some customers won't notice any difference. Logos seems to think that all that people are looking at is the percantage how much You save, and how many titles are included. To me, these current large packages are repelling. I don't mean that they should start including more titles by really popular authors, not at all, I resent of some of the popular authors, but that Logos should hire more and better librarians who can really search out good titles, I think that is Logos's main task. Too bad that they sometimes want to but can't get a contract with a publisher.
One problem with both base-packages and some of the other large packages is that translations from the Gk, for example ECFs, come in late 19th century translations. Again it's cheaper for Logos, it's actually cost-free for Logos, as many have realized. Don't get me wrong, I'm OK with that for the most part, but for a couple of the most ancient ECFs: Ignatius of Antioch and Clement of Rome, it makes difference with a newer translation. To have ALL Church Fathers and saints in modern translations is completely unnecessary though.
Regarding the Original Languages -base-package, they could omit a few commentaries and the KJV from it, and include the 1865 Common English Version New Testament. This request might not be that popular. But this is how I think. I want to select commentaries myself, and not let someone else do the choices. I really doubt that there is going to be any noticable changes when the L5 OL comes, because Logos is obviously trying to enice those who think of buying OL into buying the next step, a more expensive base-package, instead. But I doubt that all that many are convinced that they need a more expensive base-package, because many don't have so good skills in Gk, Hebrew, Aramaic or Latin that they would have use of more features and better expert e-books. Another thing comes to mind, that would be a reasonable change: inclusion of an e-book or a video with tuition of Gk foundations, most customers are interested in Gk anyway, fewer want Hebrew, Aramaic or Latin.
If they would make changes like these the various types of packages would look more serious.
But I'm not sure I want to wait 1½ years that Logos MAYBE does these improvements I've asked for. Probably there's not going to be substantial changes before L5, and that's frustrating, they COULD make the changes other than the changes in base-package, for example ½ year before L5 comes out. What I mean is, that although I'm in no hurry yet (I don't know yet how fast I'm going to progress in my studies because I don't know whether I'll get to start in a Catholic school in mid-August 2012 or in January 2013 and those studies are going to take about 1 year and after that I'll be able to focus better on Gk), perhaps I'll start buying titles separately, instead of waiting for suitable large packages other than base-packages, or a new L5 base-package on a bit higher cost level than the current base-package I have.
I think it's still going to take some time before L5 comes out - because maybe they need to wait for MacOS 11 to come out first and then hire more Mac-programmers to start, and I really think Logos wants to release L5 for both platforms simultaneously. Anyone who knows if Apple has plans for the release of 11? There's something about a MacOS X Lion APP on apples home page, due to come out in July 2012, but I don't have a clue what is meant by that, and I think X stands for 10 because it's a Latin numeral.
Either way, I want to wait until 11 comes, to upgrade to L5, because I'm going to invest in new hardware and I want to be able to compare which platform would be a better choice (I don't have a need for any other software, just a word processor).
Someone who asks about 4 Esdras is likely to know that an English translation is included in NRSV. I wasn't asking for a translation. Besides, as for translations I already have the REB Apocrypha as printed matter - and I prefer it. A few verses of 4 Esdras have survived in a Gk manuscript - it's very hard to find this in Gk anywhere, Logos would really do a favour if they would search this out and sell it. I know this is a small question, but that's why I'm asking - it's not a huge task to ask for.MJ. Smith said:
Don't forget that Logos generally is not the copyright owner or the publisher of the books they offer. Publishers may set minimum prices to minimize damage to their own profits. There may also be books Logos would like to offer that they can't get permission to offer. Logos has created additional bundles and base packages as well as modified packages/bundles in the last few years so I'm uncertain what you are suggesting that differs from current practice.Unix said:There must be room to lower the prices of some items.
OK, thank's for the info!MJ. Smith said:As for your desire for 4 Esdras it is translated in the NRSV where Ezra, Nehemiah, 1 Esdras & 2 Esdras refer to Esdras 1-4 receptively.
MJ. Smith said:The series that contains Melito entered pre-pub on March 28, 2012 and is the first item from St. Vladimir's in Logos so it may take a bit longer than average.
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[quote]
(that there's too many encyclopedias, and that really is a weakness, package-buyers want value and variety for their money so who is asking for TWO encyclopedias to be included in a package?)
That may be a problem for you, but for me (and I imagine many others) it's not. I'm in seminary and need plenty of resources to be able to cite in my papers. Encyclopedia articles (and similar items) are typically easier to cite than commentaries (and similar items) because it's easier to pull certain information from them about a specific topic. If I have 5 encyclopedias and I'm doing a paper on something moderately obscure, some of the encyclopedias might have articles about the topic that others don't.
So having more dictionary type resources allows for greater opportunity for quoting. If I only had one encyclopedia, if it was a small one, and I could not find anything in it on my topic, then I'd have to wade through a bunch of water in a lot of commentaries that I wouldn't have had to do had I had more pure reference materials.
And even if multiple encyclopedias means I get some repeat info I can still pick and choose what to cite from which resource. I.e. if they all said exactly the same thing, but I was able to glean 5 quotes from them, then I could spread the citations out over the 5 resources to help meet requirements for citing a certain amount of resources in papers. But of course, even though encyclopedias do repeat some info, they do often say things not mentioned in others.
So you might think having two encyclopedias is worthless, but I think that's ridiculous. I'd much rather have a good number of them. I'm surprised someone would actually even say they are upset about having two encyclopedias (two, for crying out loud). I hope Logos doesn't listen to you with their base package modifications. Seems you're probably deeper in the minority than you think you are. Granted, that's not to say the packages couldn't use modification to some degree. But unfortunately, you seem so biased as to what you want to see in the packages (that is, not very able to understand the usefulness of what Logos has done through other people's eyes) that if Logos followed your advice, more people would probably end up complaining than are complaining now.
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Unix said:
who is asking for TWO encyclopedias to be included in a package?
From what I've gathered in my time here: just about everyone except you. Most forum regulars probably have 10-20, if not more, and are still happy to preorder yet another one. Don't do the mistake of assuming American Evangelicals study exactly the way you do.
Unix said:translations from the Gk, for example ECFs, come in late 19th century translations. Again it's cheaper for Logos, it's actually cost-free for Logos
No, it is definitely not! To produce a public domain work they generally:
- pay two typists to type in the entire work (unless it's a Bible, in which case they use three), after which they
- compare the versions and manually go over each discrepancy to see which version is correct.
- I would imagine they also use a spell-checker when possible, and go over those results as well, though I have no official confirmation of that.
- Then they have to add all sorts of links, headwords and other tags, and
- format the whole thing.
- Plus they have costs for researching what books to publish, researching the copyright status, calculating the production costs, handling the shipping, and so on.
So, no, it's anything but "cost-free". In fact, they've said that many times it's actually cheaper to pay a publisher and get access to good modern electronic files to start with, than it is to do it all from scratch.
(Back when the ECF were published I would imagine they scanned the pages instead, which they seem to have now given up on. From what I understand it was cheaper and faster, but the results were so bad that they now have huge costs for fixing the tremendous amount of typos in those old scanned files.)
Unix said:Don't get me wrong, I'm OK with that for the most part, but for a couple of the most ancient ECFs: Ignatius of Antioch and Clement of Rome, it makes difference with a newer translation.
I believe Logos has something like 4 or 5 different translations of the Apostolic Fathers, so you've got plenty to choose from.
Unix said:Regarding the Original Languages -base-package, they could omit a few commentaries and the KJV from it
I don't think there are any commentaries in the OLL, and the KJV is the most influential English Bible ever.
Unix said:Logos is obviously trying to enice those who think of buying OL into buying the next step, a more expensive base-package, instead. But I doubt that all that many are convinced that they need a more expensive base-package, because many don't have so good skills in Gk, Hebrew, Aramaic or Latin that they would have use of more features and better expert e-books.
a) Scholar's has less original language resources than OLL, not more. It is precisely those who don't know the languages very well, or at all, who go for the higher package.
b) Scholar's is the most sold base package there is. After that comes Bible Study, Leader's, Silver, Platinum, and Home. Only then comes OLL.
Unix said:and then hire more Mac-programmers
They'd hire them now if they could only find them.
Unix said:Someone who asks about 4 Esdras is likely to know that an English translation is included in NRSV.
Funny. You didn't seem to know when you first asked about it: http://community.logos.com/forums/p/48471/359350.aspx#359350.
Mac Pro (late 2013) OS 12.6.2
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Edwin Bowden said:
When L4 came out, additional volumes that had been released in series that were in base packages were included in the upgraded base packages.
That was the reason for the cost to upgrade--additional resources that were added. Each existing customer was quoted a customized price for upgrades, based on whether or not they had already purchased those additional volumes. You don't have to pay for the same resource twice in Logos software.
I recognize that that's how they did the upgrades. However, I doubt the price that you pay for buying the resource early is totally covered by the upgrade unless they charge full price for all the items in the upgrade. For instance, let's say that the upgrade is $200 and it consists of 10 new resources that are $20. If Logos would ease the cost $20 because I bought one of the resources, then there would be no loss. But if the upgrade is $100, and they're offering 10 resources that are normally $20 but are discounted with the upgrade, then they aren't going to ease the cost $20, though buying one of the resources might have cost me that much. They'd probably ease it $10, so it's proportional to the upgrade price or some such, if that makes sense.
Anyway, I could totally be wrong, but that seems like the logical way Logos would handle this. In which case, I would lose money by buying the resources early. It may not be a big deal to buy just one of those commentaries in a similar case to this. However, with more items or simply more expensive items, the loss would increase. So I want to avoid buying any individual resources until the upgrade to see what they've added, if at all possible. (This won't be too difficult since I'm pretty happy with my package. But there are those particular items. [;)])
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fgh said:Unix said:
who is asking for TWO encyclopedias to be included in a package?
From what I've gathered in my time here: just about everyone except you. Most forum regulars probably have 10-20, if not more, and are still happy to preorder yet another one. Don't do the mistake of assuming American Evangelicals study exactly the way you do.
As the way I see it, both of you are correct. I would say that we only need a couple sources from the same theological bent. I personally only use four (AYBD, ISBE revised, Eerdmans Dictionary of the Bible, and IVP). I would love to add the NID to give my library some balance because it is tips too far to the right. I would love to use more encyclopedias, but I do not need anymore of the same.
I will also agree with you Unix that there is a lot of fill in the packages. I will also never purchased one of the higher packages (I have the OL, and I do not need more of the same).
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Most customers are not forum regulars. Logos should offer different packages, some packages for those who want a lot of encyclopedias, and some packages for those who don't. I have a printed encyclopedia, and there's a few in the library. And I have a printed ethics dictionary. There are allready Bible dictionaries in the OL base-package.
I didn't realize that they re-type them as they are free online and I thought they take them from the internet. Then it would be about time that they change some of the old translations to new ones.fgh said:
From what I've gathered in my time here: just about everyone except you. Most forum regulars probably have 10-20, if not more, and are still happy to preorder yet another one. Don't do the mistake of assuming American Evangelicals study exactly the way you do.Unix said:who is asking for TWO encyclopedias to be included in a package?
KJV is so dated there's no need for it anymore, especially not for OL users and many users of several other packages, and yes there are commentaries in the OL base-package.fgh said:So, no, it's anything but "cost-free". In fact, they've said that many times it's actually cheaper to pay a publisher and get access to good modern electronic files to start with, than it is to do it all from scratch.
(Back when the ECF were published I would imagine they scanned the pages instead, which they seem to have now given up on. From what I understand it was cheaper and faster, but the results were so bad that they now have huge costs for fixing the tremendous amount of typos in those old scanned files.)
[...]
I believe Logos has something like 4 or 5 different translations of the Apostolic Fathers, so you've got plenty to choose from.
If You are going to do really serious Gk, Hebrew, Aramaic or Latin studies and are good at languages or allready know some, You buy more bundles in addition to the base-package You have, for example better Lexicons, more grammars. One of the higher packages has more search functionality that You need for searching these languages.fgh said:I don't think there are any commentaries in the OLL, and the KJV is the most influential English Bible ever.
You read that thread extremely sloppily it DOESN'T seem from it like I didn't know. The thread was about commentaries for 4 Esdras, not about regular translations. Besides, I've been interested about different English Bible versions for 8½ years, I know all of them by heart: what books they contain and in what order, year issued, some fact about each. Probably I know much more about this by heart, than most Logos users.fgh said:a) Scholar's has less original language resources than OLL, not more. It is precisely those who don't know the languages very well, or at all, who go for the higher package.
fgh said:Someone who asks about 4 Esdras is likely to know that an English translation is included in NRSV.
Funny. You didn't seem to know when you first asked about it: http://community.logos.com/forums/p/48471/359350.aspx#359350
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Oh my goodness ... not the KJV too!
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
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Unix said:
Most customers are not forum regulars. Logos should offer different packages, some packages for those who want a lot of encyclopedias, and some packages for those who don't. I have a printed encyclopedia, and there's a few in the library. And I have a printed ethics dictionary. There are allready Bible dictionaries in the OL base-package.
You cannot expect Logos to offer 100 different base packages so as to cater to every single individual. And again, you can't say "a lot of encyclopedias" because that means something different to everyone. You apparently think two encyclopedias is a lot. Therefore, your whole argument falls apart.
[quote]
KJV is so dated there's no need for it anymore
This is entirely your opinion. You seem to give a lot of that without consideration of what other people might think. The KJV is useful for many different purposes. Even if you consider it terrible for almost everything, it can be used as a comparison against better versions. I don't particularly care for it myself. However, I have encountered people who have based entire arguments on biblical doctrine being inconsistent because of language used in the KJV. I had to argue against it using other versions. So it's good to have the KJV side by side with the others to be able to see the comparison.
[quote]
Besides, I've been interested about different English Bible versions for 8½ years, I know all of them by heart: what books they contain and in what order, year issued, some fact about each. Probably I know much more about this by heart, than most Logos users.
No one here is interested in your self-glorifying boasting of your personal knowledge. So you should probably calm down and stop being so argumentative before you say more.
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Unix said:
I didn't realize that they re-type them as they are free online and I thought they take them from the internet.
- Not all of Logos' public domain resources exist online. In fact, probably not that many.
- Even fewer existed at the time Logos published them.
- Still fewer exist as electronic files. Scanned book pages are of no particular use to them.
- Online electronic files are generally OCR'ed, or typed in by amateurs, resulting in files of too low quality to be useful.
- "Free" tends to mean that they are free for some or all private use. It doesn't necessarily mean that they are free for commercial use.
Unix said:KJV is so dated there's no need for it anymore, especially not for OL users and many users of several other packages
Don't you think it's a bit presumptuous of you decide what others need, especially when you don't even live in an English speaking country? Are you even aware that, according to Wikipedia, "the Authorized Version (...) is still the most popular translation in the United States, especially among Evangelicals." So you're saying they don't need to include the version Logos' by far biggest customer group likes best? Yeah, I'm sure that's gonna happen... Besides, how much do you think it would lower the price if they removed it? I'm guessing a few cents...
Unix said:yes there are commentaries in the OL base-package
There seem to be a couple of Bible study bundles, but I can't see any proper commentaries.
Unix said:One of the higher packages has more search functionality that You need for searching these languages.
The higher base packages have no more "search functionality" than OLL has, only more resources to search within. The only feature that is missing in OLL is the Pronunciation tool, which I guess they thought language students could do without (it can be bought as an add-on, though).
There are also very few original language resources in the higher base packages that aren't already there in OLL, so if that's all you want from those packages it's generally cheaper to buy those few books separately, or, better, through one or more of the separate language bundles.
Unix said:You read that thread extremely sloppily it DOESN'T seem from it like I didn't know. The thread was about commentaries for 4 Esdras, not about regular translations.
I did?
Unix said:I doubt the NRSV reverse interlinear Apocrypha has 4 Esdras
Unix said:I've decided that I take the Original Languages -base-package. It includes English-Greek Reverse Interlinear of the NRSV Apocryphal Texts, but I doubt that it contains 4 Esdras!
Mac Pro (late 2013) OS 12.6.2
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This is what I did, and I am very very happy with it. As a matter of fact, Logos doesn't even conceder me having the L4 OL package because I purchased the L3 OL package and did the min. cross-grade for L4. A person does not have to keep buying books if she/he is not going to use them.fgh said:There are also very few original language resources in the higher base packages that aren't already there in OLL, so if that's all you want from those packages it's generally cheaper to buy those few books separately, or, better, through one or more of the separate language bundles.
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Note: many sites that have public domain books on the internet have copyright privileges on their electronic form of the book. Logos cannot simply "steal" their electronic version. Logos either needs to work out a contract with the owner OR create their own electronic version from a dead tree or manuscript source.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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MJ. Smith said:
Note: many sites that have public domain books on the internet have copyright privileges on their electronic form of the book. Logos cannot simply "steal" their electronic version. Logos either needs to work out a contract with the owner OR create their own electronic version from a dead tree or manuscript source.
I sincerely think this is incorrect. A copyright for a book is not given to a process or a medium, only to an end result (a series of words in a particular order). The end result of a transcription into electronic format is identical in language to and, insofar as copyright is concerned, indistinguishable from the original work. One cannot claim copyright on a straightforward transcription of something in the public domain, any more than I could claim copyright on a transcription that I laboriously created of yesterday's New York Times. The copyright (or lack of copyright) transfers completely from the original to the transcription.
The only case in which this does not hold true is if the transcription modifies the original work (editing, rearranging, translating, and the like). Exactly how much editing is required before it is considered a new work is a matter of debate.
http://fairuse.stanford.edu/Copyright_and_Fair_Use_Overview/chapter8/8-b.html
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mitchellisdumb said:
I sincerely think this is incorrect.
While your position represents common sense, it doesn't match my experience. Note the following original publication date and copyright ntoice.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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Robert Wazlavek said:
If nothing else, it's something for Logos to consider (if they read this).
Yes, we read this. But I think you're all doing a good job of making my points for me. :-)
The more expensive and valuable a resource, the more expensive it is for us to include a base package. So things like AYBD are unlikely to be added to base collections, because the publisher can get (and wants) a premium price for premium content.
FSB in particular is designed to be self-contained at "Level 1". If you click the plus signs, you get let level two notes -- also included, as is the Lexham Bible Dictionary and detailed sidebars. When you've expanded Level 2 you also get links to "Level 3" external content, which is not included. Saying it should be included, or available cheap, is a Catch-22: we reference it as the next place to go after included notes because it's great, premium content. But that's why we can't include it -- because great premium content isn't cheap. We could include everything referenced, but then we'd have to stop referencing most of the good stuff. :-)
-- Bob
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MJ. Smith said:
While your position represents common sense, it doesn't match my experience. Note the following original publication date and copyright ntoice.
But the position does represent the law; copyright protects original creative expression, not transcription, database compilation, digitization, etc. That doesn't stop people for slapping copyright messages on things, but their messages don't change the law. (However, a license agreement that you agree to before using something might bind you.)
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Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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Bob Pritchett said:
copyright protects original creative expression, not transcription, database compilation, digitization, etc.
From the British Library website: http://www.bl.uk/reshelp/bldept/manuscr/copyright/index.html
"If the published work is a straightforward facsimile edition using
photographic techniques then the photographs from which it is made are
protected until the year of the photographer's death plus 70 years. If
the photographer is anonymous then protection is until the year of
publication plus 70 years. If the work is simply a transcription of an
original manuscript then the typography is protected for 25 years from
year of publication. If a work is a re-issue of an old edition with a
new introduction then the introduction is in copyright in the usual way
(author's death plus 70 years) but the re-issued text does not attract a
new copyright."It may be that the cases I am familiar with (all related to West Gallery music) fall into the "manuscript" rather than "re-issue" provision.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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I wasn't talking about base-packages, so yes Logos could offer a lot more different packages.
Many forum users seem to be boasting about a number of things. I'm not boasting, I've told how low education level I have + I was an atheist for some of those 8½ years.Robert Wazlavek said:You cannot expect Logos to offer 100 different base packages so as to cater to every single individual. And again, you can't say "a lot of encyclopedias" because that means something different to everyone. You apparently think two encyclopedias is a lot. Therefore, your whole argument falls apart.
I need the reverse interlinear anyway and it doesn't contain the few Gk 4 Esdras verses that are preserved, I just hoped that Logos would include those verses and I'm going to suggest now by email that they do.Robert Wazlavek said:No one here is interested in your self-glorifying boasting of your personal knowledge. So you should probably calm down and stop being so argumentative before you say more.
fgh said:Disclosure!
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MJ. Smith said:Bob Pritchett said:
copyright protects original creative expression, not transcription, database compilation, digitization, etc.
From the British Library website: http://www.bl.uk/reshelp/bldept/manuscr/copyright/index.html
"If the published work is a straightforward facsimile edition using
photographic techniques then the photographs from which it is made are
protected until the year of the photographer's death plus 70 years. If
the photographer is anonymous then protection is until the year of
publication plus 70 years. If the work is simply a transcription of an
original manuscript then the typography is protected for 25 years from
year of publication. If a work is a re-issue of an old edition with a
new introduction then the introduction is in copyright in the usual way
(author's death plus 70 years) but the re-issued text does not attract a
new copyright."It may be that the cases I am familiar with (all related to West Gallery music) fall into the "manuscript" rather than "re-issue" provision.
First, this is British copyright law, which differs from American copyright law.
Second, typography means something different than the set of words electronically represented. It means the style and appearance of the printed matter – the typeface, kerning, formatting on the page, and the like. If you give me an electronic edition of your transcription, I can make my own, similarly "copyrighted", transcription by selecting the entire thing, hitting "Command+C", and using a "Paste Text Only" command to strip the formatting. So I think (although I am less certain) that even under British law, Logos would be OK to use someone else's transcription.
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Unix said:
I wasn't talking about base-packages, so yes Logos could offer a lot more different packages.
You're not making any sense. You're talking about packages, the only packages Logos offers are base packages. They offer bundles, and deals, etc. But their packages are base packages. So you can't differentiate between the two unless you're suggesting they implement some other package something or other besides the base packages. So again, you aren't making any sense. Of course they could offer more base packages, but that is pointless. The base package is just a starting point. You can buy individual stuff when you want it. It doesn't make any sense for them to offer 20 different base packages. 9 is plenty. They could offer more if they wanted. But why? To cater to every individual so that all everyone has to do is buy a base package and never need to buy individual resources? There just isn't a real logical reason for Logos to offer a ton of different base packages.
[quote]
Many forum users seem to be boasting about a number of things. I'm not boasting, I've told how low education level I have + I was an atheist for some of those 8½ years.
That doesn't mean you should too. And you didn't mention any of that in your post anyway, though it's not like it matters. All you did was mention how you know your English versions to bolster your argument, but fgh proved by quoting your posts that your argument was bad. And you aren't helping yourself by continuing to argue.
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Bob Pritchett said:
Yes, we read this. But I think you're all doing a good job of making my points for me. :-)
The more expensive and valuable a resource, the more expensive it is for us to include a base package. So things like AYBD are unlikely to be added to base collections, because the publisher can get (and wants) a premium price for premium content.
FSB in particular is designed to be self-contained at "Level 1". If you click the plus signs, you get let level two notes -- also included, as is the Lexham Bible Dictionary and detailed sidebars. When you've expanded Level 2 you also get links to "Level 3" external content, which is not included. Saying it should be included, or available cheap, is a Catch-22: we reference it as the next place to go after included notes because it's great, premium content. But that's why we can't include it -- because great premium content isn't cheap. We could include everything referenced, but then we'd have to stop referencing most of the good stuff. :-)
-- Bob
I gotcha. I suppose that does make sense. It's just unfortunate from the consumer side. I don't want to pay premium prices! Lol.
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OK, thank's or pointing out the proper use of the terms. What I was suggesting, was adjustments to and more of different so called libraries and other bundles. I haven't been suggesting more base-packages.
fgh didn't prove that but only quoted what I wondered about a reverse interlinear which is still being developed - and they don't say on the product page what the contents of it are. Here You can see that on 5th April 2012 or earlier I write that the Logos NRSV reverse interlinear doesn't have 4 Esdras (that's more than a week before the thread fgh quoted): http://www.christianforums.com/t7644634/#post60159103 The only thing I didn't know was that there's no difference at all between the regular NRSV and the -CE.Robert Wazlavek said:They offer bundles, and deals, etc. But their packages are base packages. So you can't differentiate between the two unless you're suggesting they implement some other package something or other besides the base packages.
Robert Wazlavek said:but fgh proved by quoting your posts that your argument was bad. And you aren't helping yourself by continuing to argue.
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mitchellisdumb said:
Second, typography means something different than the set of words electronically represented.
I'm not a lawyer or librarian. I was only trying to share quotations from reliable sources which corresponded to actual experience of a couple of acquaintances.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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Unix said:
I write that the Logos NRSV reverse interlinear doesn't have 4 Esdras
Perhaps because it is still under development? http://www.logos.com/product/7130/english-greek-reverse-interlinear-of-the-nrsv-apocryphal-texts There is no reason to think Logos is not including all the apocrypha as defined by the NRSV. I don't quite understand your concern. Could you explain why you think it won't include 4 Esdras? Thanks.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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MJ. Smith said:mitchellisdumb said:
Second, typography means something different than the set of words electronically represented.
I'm not a lawyer or librarian. I was only trying to share quotations from reliable sources which corresponded to actual experience of a couple of acquaintances.
I just reread my post, and it came off quite harshly. Please accept my apologies. I'm neither a lawyer nor a librarian myself. I tend to get a bit worked up over fair use and public domain, I fear it's been chipped away at to the point where we're in danger of losing it. I do appreciate your contribution to the discussion, and whether it applies to transcription or not you bring up an interesting and relevant point – while American copyright law doesn't allow a copyright on formatting, British law does.
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mitchellisdumb said:
Please accept my apologies.
Done. I've been known to get worked up over certain issues myself.[:)]
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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Rick Brannan used to work for Logos. Here's a post he wrote: http://community.logos.com/forums/p/48471/360300.aspx#360300
Only a few verses of 4 Esdras have survived Gk. The rest is in Latin. But it's very difficult to find these few verses, so I'm going to suggest to Logos that they include these Gk verses in the English Greek reverse interlinear of the NRSV apocryphal texts.MJ. Smith said:There is no reason to think Logos is not including all the apocrypha as defined by the NRSV. I don't quite understand your concern. Could you explain why you think it won't include 4 Esdras? Thanks.
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Good memory. You're correct Unix
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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MJ. Smith said:tom collinge said:
Bob has said that he was not rewriting L5.
And to think I interpreted Bob's statement in the reverse way: I expected to see WPF out but the user interface/processing logic to be the same.
I guess we'll just have to wait and see what Bob really meant.Hmmm... WPF being out in V5 would be a mixed blessing.
- On the one hand it means we should have proper display of Syriac fonts in V5
- On the other it would mean that it is highly unlikely Syriac font display would be fixed before V5
Oh well, beggars can't be choosers.
0 - On the one hand it means we should have proper display of Syriac fonts in V5
-
We can only hope and pray that WPF will not be part of L5. I have a funny feeling that we are stuck with WPF until L6. I hope that I am wrong.James W Bennett said:Hmmm... WPF being out in V5 would be a mixed blessing.
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tom collinge said:
We can only hope and pray that WPF will not be part of L5. I have a funny feeling that we are stuck with WPF until L6. I hope that I am wrong.
I hope that you are wrong also. L4 is a great software. I want everything that will slow it down to be ditched.
Mission: To serve God as He desires.
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Just talked to a sales rep this morning about this specific question
(wondering why I didn't have Zechariah in the NAC). The rep said I could
purchase it for $30, or if I could wait until L5 comes out, it should
be available with the upgrade.0 -
The Logos 5 collections have not been defined, so the rep cannot know whether new NAC volumes will (or even should) be included in the upgrade or not. (I will be following up with the sales department to make sure we're not inadvertently disseminating incorrect information.)
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I'm worried that the salaries paid to the reviewers mentioned in: http://community.logos.com/forums/t/51401.aspx
... will make e-books more expensive or stay the same price, (when it should be the other way, that prices on some items would go down).
I allready use Christianforums to discuss theology and just read.
Faithlife has very few Bible versions.
So I have a number of reasons why I'm not going to use Faithlife.
It's strange that Logos is developing these other things before they have a complete Bible with all Apocryphal OT books in English and in the original languages, with BOTH Gk and Hebrew in the OT.
There are very few English Bibles that have all or most of the Apocryphal OT books, one of them is the 1989 REB. I'm suspecting that Logos is working on releasing the REB (perhaps the negotiations with the publisher are hard - I'm guessing) - but it's taking a very long time. Logos should start prioritizing this!
It would be good if Logos would provide much more clear information on Copyright restrictions, either as summaries, or for each individual title, that You could see in the software. Then You could also paste that info together with the quote, whenever You suspect that people who read what You've written are not familiar with those rules.Disclosure!
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Bradley Grainger (Logos) said:
The Logos 5 collections have not been defined, so the rep cannot know whether new NAC volumes will (or even should) be included in the upgrade or not. (I will be following up with the sales department to make sure we're not inadvertently disseminating incorrect information.)
How about getting rid of NAC all together and giving us NICOT/NICNT instead? [;)] If that's not possible then include NIVAC both OT and NT and that should make up for the lost of the NAC lol
Dreaming!
DAL
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Unix said:
I'm worried that the salaries paid to the reviewers mentioned
No need to worry - it is highly unlikely that they are on salary with the exception of managing editors.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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There is great competition between different software manufacturers of Gk Hebrew Aramaic Latin Bible study software. As lowering the price for the package in L5 would be really unfair towards all of us who have bought it earlier on, one possible sollution might remain: the inclusion of more titles, and that ALL old Logos OLL customers would get those for free! But PLEASE DON'T include additional English Bibles or only Lexham resources.
One reason why I chose the OLL was that it included the least such English Bible versions that I really don't want. So far I haven't added any additional English Bibles to my Logos Library, other than the ones that came with the Catholic Foundations package. If Logos releases the 1989 REB I'll be quick to place an order on it, other than that I would only desire the 1866 Common English Version New Testament (and purhaps the GNT(-CE!) which I have several printed ones). I have enough printed Bibles that I bought prior to my purchase of the Logos packages, bundles and individual items. I'm very aware of different English Bible versions and reluctant to use many of the popular ones. The only reason why I accepted the 2007 ESV and 1995 NASU in my Logos library was that they show the OPPOSITE of how I would like passages to be translated.DMB said:But I must say, I was completely on board with the idea of everyone re-purchasing their resources except for the OL people.
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