OT: How we Got the Bible Question

I think I'm just not thinking clearly this morning, but I cannot seem to find this answer.

If I am understanding correctly, the organization of the Old Testament is taken from the Latin Vulgate which is from the Septuagint. If this is the case, then how did the Massoretic text come into the picture?

Thanks,

Ron

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tom

I think I'm just not thinking clearly this morning, but I cannot seem to find this answer.

If I am understanding correctly, the organization of the Old Testament is taken from the Latin Vulgate which is from the Septuagint. If this is the case, then how did the Massoretic text come into the picture?

Thanks,

Ron

The MT is the "original Hebrew". The LXX is a translation from the Hebrew.

NOTE: The MT is not the same (as in 100% the same) as the LXX.

Joseph Turner

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/380404#Comment_380404

Also, even though the MT is in Hebrew, the copies we have are dated at best after 800 AD or so.

The Septuagint is dated back to 200 or so BC, but it is in Greek. It is also better preserved than the MT, but again, it is in Greek.

The Dead Sea Scrolls are the key, which represent the Hebrew text of the Hebrew Scriptures (OT) from about AD 200-Jesus' time. We have every OT document accounted for, usually in multiples, except Esther. There are verses that are in our modern Bibles that were never there before, because they were in the DSS (Psalm 145:14). For the most part though the DSS attest to the reliability of our OT. Modern versions already have any minor corrections supplied by the DSS.

NetworkGeek

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/380408#Comment_380408

I believe the only place we see an accounting for Esther is in the Works of Josephus - The Antiquities of the Jews, where he writes extensively on the history of the Jewish people. If you have it in Logos, this link will take you to his writings on Esther in The Works of Josephus: New Updated Edition

fgh

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/380404#Comment_380404

The MT is the "original Hebrew".

a) The Samaritans would disagree. And so would the folks in Qumran. And presumably the LXX translators as well, who seem to have worked from slightly different manuscripts, either more or less "original" than the MT. The MT is simply the textual tradition that was eventually canonized within rabbinical Judaism, well after it separated from Christianity.

b) The question, as I understand it, was about the organization of the OT. The MT was handed down through scrolls. Scrolls have no order between them. The division in Torah, Prophets and Writings is traditional, and the order within certain scrolls is traditional, but the rest of the fixed order wasn't needed until one started to use books as well as scrolls. And I believe the LXX did that long before the MT did, so I believe the LXX order is actually older than the MT order.

If I am understanding correctly, the organization of the Old Testament is taken from the Latin Vulgate which is from the Septuagint.

There is no the organization of the OT. Catholic Bibles build on the Vulgate, yes. Protestant? Well...

Ronald Quick

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/380417#Comment_380417

Thanks for all the responses.

Let me explain a bit further my questions:

In Neil Lightfoot's "How We Got the Bible" (which I am waiting for Logos/Vyrso to have available) he states: "The arrangement of Old Testament books found in English Bible is derived from the Latin Vulgate translation, which in turn is derived from the Septuagint or Greek version."

I really have two questions:

1) From what versions or translations do we get the order of our OT books for the current English Bible (Protestant).

According to the above quote by Lightfoot, it seems to me that the answer to this question is ultimately from the Septuagint.

If his statement is accurate then:

2) How did the Massoretic Text become the primary version from which our English Bibles are based?

fgh

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/380421#Comment_380421

1) From what versions or translations do we get the order of our OT books for the current English Bible (Protestant).

Is there a translation called the "English Bible"? If so, I don't have it, so I don't know what order it uses.

According to the above quote by Lightfoot, it seems to me that the answer to this question is ultimately from the Septuagint.

All Christian Bibles that I can think of, except the Messianic CJB, ultimately take their order from the LXX. It's just a question about how much they've removed, rearranged, and/or (in a few rare cases) added.

How did the Massoretic Text become the primary version from which our English Bibles are based?

Blame Jerome.

fgh

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/380425#Comment_380425

All Christian Bibles that I can think of, except the Messianic CJB, ultimately take their order from the LXX. It's just a question about how much they've removed, rearranged, and/or (in a few rare cases) added.

As a general rule the Eastern traditions add, mainline Protestants rearrange, and Evangelicals remove.

DMB

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/380426#Comment_380426

It IS true ... using (American) legal jurisprudence, only the LXX has been validated as a Holy-Spirit sourced document (not sure which version; I guess maybe one being used in western Asia?).

The fact that Jesus quoted from the LXX of course is the ultimate validation (Jesus was from heaven and obviously knew the Holy Spirit as a part of the Trinity). The hebrew text is largely a long series of traditions. Just one of the many ironies facing modern day exegetes.

steve clark

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/380435#Comment_380435

an interesting article on Hebrew order vs Greek order of minor prophets:

logosres:ots-mnpr;art=chart2

Gary Butner, Th.D.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/380438#Comment_380438

Present-day copies of the Septuagint contain the Apocrypha. Since the New Testament frequently quotes from the Septuagint Old Testament, many scholars argue that the New Testament sanctions the Apocrypha. It is important, however, to know that our Septuagint copies come from a late time—about a.d. 325. There is no evidence that the early Septuagint contained the Apocrypha. Indeed there is evidence against it.

fgh

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/380438#Comment_380438

an interesting article on Hebrew order vs Greek order of minor prophets:

logosres:ots-mnpr;art=chart2

Oops. Guess I was wrong above. [:$] I thought the Twelve Prophets were the same order in both.

Serves to prove that what we should all do is to open:

the LXX,
the JPS or similar,
the Vulgate, and
whatever more or less modern translations we want to compare with,

open the TOCs for all of them, and arrange them side by side. Only, when I did that they all had Joel after Hosea, even Brenton's LXX. Logos' LXX has Amos, though.

We need MJ; she is ten times better at this than I am.

steve clark

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/380468#Comment_380468

fgh,

i wasn't trying to correct you (or anyone). You seem to have a pretty good knowledge on many Biblical topics. Thanks!

i was searching my L4 library and ran upon this article. Wish i had the paper copies in L4 that i own (Metzger, Lightfoot, etc). Some years ago i became curious how we got our version of the Bible and did a little reading on it.

MJ. Smith

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/380421#Comment_380421

English Bibles that I have which do not agree on the order of the OT:

NRSV with apocrypha
NRSVCE
Community Bible

As for the Vulgate:

The Vulgate has a compound text that is not entirely the work of Jerome. Its components include:

Jerome's independent translation from the Hebrew: the books of the Hebrew Bible, usually not including his translation of the Psalms. This was completed in 405.
Translation from the Greek of Theodotion by Jerome: The three additions to the Book of Daniel; Song of the Three Children, Story of Susanna, and The Idol Bel and the Dragon.
The Song of the Three Children was retained within the narrative of
Daniel, the other two additions Jerome moved to the end of the book.
Translation from the Septuagint by Jerome: the Rest of Esther. Jerome gathered all these additions together at the end of the book of Esther.
Translation from the Hexaplar Septuagint by Jerome: his Gallican version
of the Book of Psalms. Jerome's Hexaplaric revisions of other books of
Old Testament continued to circulate in Italy for several centuries, but
only Job and fragments of other books survive.
Free translation by Jerome from a secondary Aramaic version: Tobias and Judith.
Revision by Jerome of the Old Latin, corrected with reference to the oldest Greek manuscripts available: the Gospels.
Old Latin, more or less revised by a person or persons unknown: Baruch, Letter of Jeremiah, 3 Esdras, Acts, Epistles, and the Apocalypse.
Old Latin, wholly unrevised: Epistle to the Laodiceans, Prayer of Manasses, 4 Esdras, Wisdom, Ecclesiasticus, and 1 and 2 Maccabees.

MJ. Smith

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/380467#Comment_380467

There is no evidence that the early Septuagint contained the Apocrypha. Indeed there is evidence against it.

It issue is legitimately debatable. NT evidence for deuterocanonicals:

Matt. 2:16 - Herod's decree of slaying innocent children was prophesied in Wis.
11:7 - slaying the holy innocents.

Matt. 6:19-20 - Jesus' statement about laying up for yourselves treasure in
heaven follows Sirach 29:11 - lay up your treasure.

Matt.. 7:12 - Jesus' golden rule "do unto others" is the converse of Tobit 4:15
- what you hate, do not do to others.

Matt. 7:16,20 - Jesus' statement "you will know them by their fruits" follows
Sirach 27:6 - the fruit discloses the cultivation.

Matt. 9:36 - the people were "like sheep without a shepherd" is same as Judith
11:19 - sheep without a shepherd.

Matt. 11:25 - Jesus' description "Lord of heaven and earth" is the same as
Tobit 7:18 - Lord of heaven and earth.

Matt. 12:42 - Jesus refers to the wisdom of Solomon which was recorded and made
part of the deuterocanonical books.

Matt. 16:18 - Jesus' reference to the "power of death" and "gates of Hades"
references Wisdom 16:13.

Matt. 22:25; Mark 12:20; Luke 20:29 - Gospel writers refer to the canonicity of
Tobit 3:8 and 7:11 regarding the seven brothers.

Matt. 24:15 - the "desolating sacrilege" Jesus refers to is also taken from 1
Macc. 1:54 and 2 Macc. 8:17.

Matt. 24:16 - let those "flee to the mountains" is taken from 1 Macc. 2:28.

Matt. 27:43 - if He is God's Son, let God deliver him from His adversaries
follows Wisdom 2:18.

Mark 4:5,16-17 - Jesus' description of seeds falling on rocky ground and having
no root follows Sirach 40:15.

Mark 9:48 - description of hell where their worm does not die and the fire is
not quenched references Judith 16:17.

Luke 1:42 - Elizabeth's declaration of Mary's blessedness above all women
follows Uzziah's declaration in Judith 13:18.

Luke 1:52 - Mary's magnificat addressing the mighty falling from their thrones
and replaced by lowly follows Sirach 10:14.

Luke 2:29 - Simeon's declaration that he is ready to die after seeing the Child
Jesus follows Tobit 11:9.

Luke 13:29 - the Lord's description of men coming from east and west to rejoice
in God follows Baruch 4:37.

Luke 21:24 - Jesus' usage of "fall by the edge of the sword" follows Sirach
28:18.

Luke 24:4 and Acts 1:10 - Luke's description of the two men in dazzling apparel
reminds us of 2 Macc. 3:26.

John 1:3 - all things were made through Him, the Word, follows Wisdom 9:1.

John 3:13 - who has ascended into heaven but He who descended from heaven
references Baruch 3:29.

John 4:48; Acts 5:12; 15:12; 2 Cor. 12:12 - Jesus', Luke's and Paul's usage of
"signs and wonders" follows Wisdom 8:8.

John 5:18 - Jesus claiming that God is His Father follows Wisdom 2:16.

John 6:35-59 - Jesus' Eucharistic discourse is foreshadowed in Sirach 24:21.

John 10:22 - the identification of the feast of the dedication is taken from 1
Macc. 4:59.

John 10:36 – Jesus accepts the inspiration of Maccabees as He analogizes the
Hanukkah consecration to His own consecration to the Father in 1 Macc. 4:36.

John 15:6 - branches that don't bear fruit and are cut down follows Wis. 4:5
where branches are broken off.

Acts 1:15 - Luke's reference to the 120 may be a reference to 1 Macc. 3:55 -
leaders of tens / restoration of the twelve.

Acts 10:34; Rom. 2:11; Gal. 2:6 - Peter's and Paul's statement that God shows
no partiality references Sirach 35:12.

Acts 17:29 - description of false gods as like gold and silver made by men
follows Wisdom 13:10.

Rom 1:18-25 - Paul's teaching on the knowledge of the Creator and the ignorance
and sin of idolatry follows Wis. 13:1-10.

Rom. 1:20 - specifically, God's existence being evident in nature follows Wis.
13:1.

Rom. 1:23 - the sin of worshipping mortal man, birds, animals and reptiles
follows Wis. 11:15; 12:24-27; 13:10; 14:8.

Rom. 1:24-27 - this idolatry results in all kinds of sexual perversion which
follows Wis. 14:12,24-27.

Rom. 4:17 - Abraham is a father of many nations follows Sirach 44:19.

Rom. 5:12 - description of death and sin entering into the world is similar to
Wisdom 2:24.

Rom. 9:21 - usage of the potter and the clay, making two kinds of vessels
follows Wisdom 15:7.

1 Cor. 2:16 - Paul's question, "who has known the mind of the Lord?" references
Wisdom 9:13.

1 Cor. 6:12-13; 10:23-26 - warning that, while all things are good, beware of
gluttony, follows Sirach 36:18 and 37:28-30.

1 Cor. 8:5-6 - Paul acknowledging many "gods" but one Lord follows Wis. 13:3.

1 Cor. 10:1 - Paul's description of our fathers being under the cloud passing
through the sea refers to Wisdom 19:7.

1 Cor. 10:20 - what pagans sacrifice they offer to demons and not to God refers
to Baruch 4:7.

1 Cor. 15:29 - if no expectation of resurrection, it would be foolish to be
baptized on their behalf follows 2 Macc. 12:43-45.

Eph. 1:17 - Paul's prayer for a "spirit of wisdom" follows the prayer for the
spirit of wisdom in Wisdom 7:7.

Eph. 6:14 - Paul describing the breastplate of righteousness is the same as
Wis. 5:18. See also Isaiah 59:17 and 1 Thess. 5:8.

Eph. 6:13-17 - in fact, the whole discussion of armor, helmet, breastplate,
sword, shield follows Wis. 5:17-20.

1 Tim. 6:15 - Paul's description of God as Sovereign and King of kings is from
2 Macc. 12:15; 13:4.

2 Tim. 4:8 - Paul's description of a crown of righteousness is similar to
Wisdom 5:16.

Heb. 4:12 - Paul's description of God's word as a sword is similar to Wisdom
18:15.

Heb. 11:5 - Enoch being taken up is also referenced in Wis 4:10 and Sir 44:16.
See also 2 Kings 2:1-13 & Sir 48:9 regarding Elijah.

Heb 11:35 - Paul teaches about the martyrdom of the mother and her sons
described in 2 Macc. 7:1-42.

Heb. 12:12 - the description "drooping hands" and "weak knees" comes from
Sirach 25:23.

James 1:19 - let every man be quick to hear and slow to respond follows Sirach
5:11.

James 2:23 - it was reckoned to him as righteousness follows 1 Macc. 2:52 - it
was reckoned to him as righteousness.

James 3:13 - James' instruction to perform works in meekness follows Sirach
3:17.

James 5:3 - describing silver which rusts and laying up treasure follows Sirach
29:10-11.

James 5:6 - condemning and killing the "righteous man" follows Wisdom 2:10-20.

1 Peter 1:6-7 - Peter teaches about testing faith by purgatorial fire as
described in Wisdom 3:5-6 and Sirach 2:5.

1 Peter 1:17 - God judging each one according to his deeds refers to Sirach
16:12 - God judges man according to his deeds.

2 Peter 2:7 - God's rescue of a righteous man (Lot) is also described in Wisdom
10:6.

Rev. 1:4 – the seven spirits who are before his throne is taken from Tobit
12:15 – Raphael is one of the seven holy angels who present the prayers of the
saints before the Holy One.

Rev. 1:18; Matt. 16:18 - power of life over death and gates of Hades follows
Wis. 16:13.

Rev. 2:12 - reference to the two-edged sword is similar to the description of
God's Word in Wisdom 18:16.

Rev. 5:7 - God is described as seated on His throne, and this is the same
description used in Sirach 1:8.

Rev. 8:3-4 - prayers of the saints presented to God by the hand of an angel
follows Tobit 12:12,15.

Rev. 8:7 - raining of hail and fire to the earth follows Wisdom 16:22 and
Sirach 39:29.

Rev. 9:3 - raining of locusts on the earth follows Wisdom 16:9.

Rev. 11:19 - the vision of the ark of the covenant (Mary) in a cloud of glory
was prophesied in 2 Macc. 2:7.

Rev. 17:14 - description of God as King of kings follows 2 Macc. 13:4.

Rev. 19:1 - the cry "Hallelujah" at the coming of the new Jerusalem follows
Tobit 13:18.

Rev. 19:11 - the description of the Lord on a white horse in the heavens
follows 2 Macc. 3:25; 11:8.

Rev. 19:16 - description of our Lord as King of kings is taken from 2 Macc.
13:4.

Rev. 21:19 - the description of the new Jerusalem with precious stones is
prophesied in Tobit 13:17.

Exodus 23:7 - do not slay the innocent and righteous - Dan. 13:53 - do not put
to death an innocent and righteous person.

1 Sam. 28:7-20 – the intercessory mediation of deceased Samuel for Saul follows
Sirach 46:20.

2 Kings 2:1-13 – Elijah being taken up into heaven follows Sirach 48:9.

On manuscripts in general - just a sample

GregW

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/380499#Comment_380499

There is no evidence that the early Septuagint contained the Apocrypha. Indeed there is evidence against it.

It issue is legitimately debatable. NT evidence for deuterocanonicals:

Thank you MJ - that is a really helpful post: I have never seen it collated in such a helpful way before.

DMB

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/380499#Comment_380499

Wonder how Mar 9.48 was matched to Judith 16.17 (vs Isa 66.24). Only noted since I'm reading 'Sealed: Isaiah' (recently broken out of a collection).

fgh

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/380467#Comment_380467

There is no evidence that the early Septuagint contained the Apocrypha. Indeed there is evidence against it.

Well worth reading: Michael Barber: Loose Canons: The Development of the Old Testament (Part 1), (Part 2), (Part 3). He actually supports the claim that the earliest LXX didn't include the deuterocanonicals, but nevertheless makes a pretty compelling case for them always having been a part of the Christian canon. Plus he deals with a couple of other issues that's been mentioned in this thread as well.

MJ. Smith

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/380527#Comment_380527

He actually supports the claim that the earliest LXX didn't include the deuterocanonicals,

In fact, from my reading the earliest LXX included only the Torah and the other books were added gradually. (In this case my source is Reventlow which is my current reading.)

MJ. Smith

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/380523#Comment_380523

Wonder how Mar 9.48 was matched to Judith 16.17 (vs Isa 66.24).

Unfortunately I lack sufficient knowledge of the languages and manuscripts to answer that. I suspect that a search of journals would be the most likely source of an answer. JETS 27/3 (September 1984) 325334 (http://www.edwardfudge.com/JETS_final_end_wicked.pdf) may provide the answer.

fgh

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/380470#Comment_380470

fgh,

i wasn't trying to correct you (or anyone).

I know. And thanks for the link, it was very relevant.

(Besides, this wasn't exactly a matter of opinion; it was a simple fact that anyone could (and I should) have checked for him- or herself. When I make errors like that I should be corrected.)

fgh

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/380528#Comment_380528

In fact, from my reading the earliest LXX included only the Torah and the other books were added gradually.

Which is what Michael Barber is saying as well.

Thanks for the list. I think I'll make a PB or PL of it tomorrow. Coming to think of it, it might also make a good RL.

Gary Butner, Th.D.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/380499#Comment_380499

Your quotes are NOT evidence the Apocrypha was in the early LXX. When you examine these quotes carefully, then you see the difference. Search "Did Jesus quote the Apocrypha."

There is no evidence that the early Septuagint contained the Apocrypha. Indeed there is evidence against it.

It issue is legitimately debatable. NT evidence for deuterocanonicals:

Matt. 2:16 - Herod's decree of slaying innocent children was prophesied in Wis.
11:7 - slaying the holy innocents.

Matt. 6:19-20 - Jesus' statement about laying up for yourselves treasure in
heaven follows Sirach 29:11 - lay up your treasure.

Matt.. 7:12 - Jesus' golden rule "do unto others" is the converse of Tobit 4:15
- what you hate, do not do to others.

Matt. 7:16,20 - Jesus' statement "you will know them by their fruits" follows
Sirach 27:6 - the fruit discloses the cultivation.

Matt. 9:36 - the people were "like sheep without a shepherd" is same as Judith
11:19 - sheep without a shepherd.

Matt. 11:25 - Jesus' description "Lord of heaven and earth" is the same as
Tobit 7:18 - Lord of heaven and earth.

Matt. 12:42 - Jesus refers to the wisdom of Solomon which was recorded and made
part of the deuterocanonical books.

Matt. 16:18 - Jesus' reference to the "power of death" and "gates of Hades"
references Wisdom 16:13.

Matt. 22:25; Mark 12:20; Luke 20:29 - Gospel writers refer to the canonicity of
Tobit 3:8 and 7:11 regarding the seven brothers.

Matt. 24:15 - the "desolating sacrilege" Jesus refers to is also taken from 1
Macc. 1:54 and 2 Macc. 8:17.

Matt. 24:16 - let those "flee to the mountains" is taken from 1 Macc. 2:28.

Matt. 27:43 - if He is God's Son, let God deliver him from His adversaries
follows Wisdom 2:18.

Mark 4:5,16-17 - Jesus' description of seeds falling on rocky ground and having
no root follows Sirach 40:15.

Mark 9:48 - description of hell where their worm does not die and the fire is
not quenched references Judith 16:17.

Luke 1:42 - Elizabeth's declaration of Mary's blessedness above all women
follows Uzziah's declaration in Judith 13:18.

Luke 1:52 - Mary's magnificat addressing the mighty falling from their thrones
and replaced by lowly follows Sirach 10:14.

Luke 2:29 - Simeon's declaration that he is ready to die after seeing the Child
Jesus follows Tobit 11:9.

Luke 13:29 - the Lord's description of men coming from east and west to rejoice
in God follows Baruch 4:37.

Luke 21:24 - Jesus' usage of "fall by the edge of the sword" follows Sirach
28:18.

Luke 24:4 and Acts 1:10 - Luke's description of the two men in dazzling apparel
reminds us of 2 Macc. 3:26.

John 1:3 - all things were made through Him, the Word, follows Wisdom 9:1.

John 3:13 - who has ascended into heaven but He who descended from heaven
references Baruch 3:29.

John 4:48; Acts 5:12; 15:12; 2 Cor. 12:12 - Jesus', Luke's and Paul's usage of
"signs and wonders" follows Wisdom 8:8.

John 5:18 - Jesus claiming that God is His Father follows Wisdom 2:16.

John 6:35-59 - Jesus' Eucharistic discourse is foreshadowed in Sirach 24:21.

John 10:22 - the identification of the feast of the dedication is taken from 1
Macc. 4:59.

John 10:36 – Jesus accepts the inspiration of Maccabees as He analogizes the
Hanukkah consecration to His own consecration to the Father in 1 Macc. 4:36.

John 15:6 - branches that don't bear fruit and are cut down follows Wis. 4:5
where branches are broken off.

Acts 1:15 - Luke's reference to the 120 may be a reference to 1 Macc. 3:55 -
leaders of tens / restoration of the twelve.

Acts 10:34; Rom. 2:11; Gal. 2:6 - Peter's and Paul's statement that God shows
no partiality references Sirach 35:12.

Acts 17:29 - description of false gods as like gold and silver made by men
follows Wisdom 13:10.

Rom 1:18-25 - Paul's teaching on the knowledge of the Creator and the ignorance
and sin of idolatry follows Wis. 13:1-10.

Rom. 1:20 - specifically, God's existence being evident in nature follows Wis.
13:1.

Rom. 1:23 - the sin of worshipping mortal man, birds, animals and reptiles
follows Wis. 11:15; 12:24-27; 13:10; 14:8.

Rom. 1:24-27 - this idolatry results in all kinds of sexual perversion which
follows Wis. 14:12,24-27.

Rom. 4:17 - Abraham is a father of many nations follows Sirach 44:19.

Rom. 5:12 - description of death and sin entering into the world is similar to
Wisdom 2:24.

Rom. 9:21 - usage of the potter and the clay, making two kinds of vessels
follows Wisdom 15:7.

1 Cor. 2:16 - Paul's question, "who has known the mind of the Lord?" references
Wisdom 9:13.

1 Cor. 6:12-13; 10:23-26 - warning that, while all things are good, beware of
gluttony, follows Sirach 36:18 and 37:28-30.

1 Cor. 8:5-6 - Paul acknowledging many "gods" but one Lord follows Wis. 13:3.

1 Cor. 10:1 - Paul's description of our fathers being under the cloud passing
through the sea refers to Wisdom 19:7.

1 Cor. 10:20 - what pagans sacrifice they offer to demons and not to God refers
to Baruch 4:7.

1 Cor. 15:29 - if no expectation of resurrection, it would be foolish to be
baptized on their behalf follows 2 Macc. 12:43-45.

Eph. 1:17 - Paul's prayer for a "spirit of wisdom" follows the prayer for the
spirit of wisdom in Wisdom 7:7.

Eph. 6:14 - Paul describing the breastplate of righteousness is the same as
Wis. 5:18. See also Isaiah 59:17 and 1 Thess. 5:8.

Eph. 6:13-17 - in fact, the whole discussion of armor, helmet, breastplate,
sword, shield follows Wis. 5:17-20.

1 Tim. 6:15 - Paul's description of God as Sovereign and King of kings is from
2 Macc. 12:15; 13:4.

2 Tim. 4:8 - Paul's description of a crown of righteousness is similar to
Wisdom 5:16.

Heb. 4:12 - Paul's description of God's word as a sword is similar to Wisdom
18:15.

Heb. 11:5 - Enoch being taken up is also referenced in Wis 4:10 and Sir 44:16.
See also 2 Kings 2:1-13 & Sir 48:9 regarding Elijah.

Heb 11:35 - Paul teaches about the martyrdom of the mother and her sons
described in 2 Macc. 7:1-42.

Heb. 12:12 - the description "drooping hands" and "weak knees" comes from
Sirach 25:23.

James 1:19 - let every man be quick to hear and slow to respond follows Sirach
5:11.

James 2:23 - it was reckoned to him as righteousness follows 1 Macc. 2:52 - it
was reckoned to him as righteousness.

James 3:13 - James' instruction to perform works in meekness follows Sirach
3:17.

James 5:3 - describing silver which rusts and laying up treasure follows Sirach
29:10-11.

James 5:6 - condemning and killing the "righteous man" follows Wisdom 2:10-20.

1 Peter 1:6-7 - Peter teaches about testing faith by purgatorial fire as
described in Wisdom 3:5-6 and Sirach 2:5.

1 Peter 1:17 - God judging each one according to his deeds refers to Sirach
16:12 - God judges man according to his deeds.

2 Peter 2:7 - God's rescue of a righteous man (Lot) is also described in Wisdom
10:6.

Rev. 1:4 – the seven spirits who are before his throne is taken from Tobit
12:15 – Raphael is one of the seven holy angels who present the prayers of the
saints before the Holy One.

Rev. 1:18; Matt. 16:18 - power of life over death and gates of Hades follows
Wis. 16:13.

Rev. 2:12 - reference to the two-edged sword is similar to the description of
God's Word in Wisdom 18:16.

Rev. 5:7 - God is described as seated on His throne, and this is the same
description used in Sirach 1:8.

Rev. 8:3-4 - prayers of the saints presented to God by the hand of an angel
follows Tobit 12:12,15.

Rev. 8:7 - raining of hail and fire to the earth follows Wisdom 16:22 and
Sirach 39:29.

Rev. 9:3 - raining of locusts on the earth follows Wisdom 16:9.

Rev. 11:19 - the vision of the ark of the covenant (Mary) in a cloud of glory
was prophesied in 2 Macc. 2:7.

Rev. 17:14 - description of God as King of kings follows 2 Macc. 13:4.

Rev. 19:1 - the cry "Hallelujah" at the coming of the new Jerusalem follows
Tobit 13:18.

Rev. 19:11 - the description of the Lord on a white horse in the heavens
follows 2 Macc. 3:25; 11:8.

Rev. 19:16 - description of our Lord as King of kings is taken from 2 Macc.
13:4.

Rev. 21:19 - the description of the new Jerusalem with precious stones is
prophesied in Tobit 13:17.

Exodus 23:7 - do not slay the innocent and righteous - Dan. 13:53 - do not put
to death an innocent and righteous person.

1 Sam. 28:7-20 – the intercessory mediation of deceased Samuel for Saul follows
Sirach 46:20.

2 Kings 2:1-13 – Elijah being taken up into heaven follows Sirach 48:9.

On manuscripts in general - just a sample

MJ. Smith

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/380538#Comment_380538

Search "Did Jesus quote the Apocrypha."

In my library this brings up zero results.

Your quotes are NOT evidence the Apocrypha was in the early LXX.

As I said elsewhere, I tend towards the position that the earliest LXXX was probably Torah only. I very carefully stated that the evidence made your position debatable not that it refuted your position. My actual position is that we know there were multiple manuscript traditions in Palestine at the time of Christ. The evidence points towards the New Testament using multiple traditions - but without more early manuscripts we cannot determine with certainty which quotes or allusions derive from which tradition(s). Nor can we assume that the traditions known to us - Samaritan, Dead Sea, Qumram, LXX, MT, Targum - are an exhaustive list. By nature, I am inclined to enjoy questions that are debatable over questions for which we have sure answers - a trait that made me an excellent analyst.

To bring this back to Logos and away from a theological debate, may I recommend:

The Use of the Septuagint in New Testament Research by Timothy McLay

The First Bible of the Church: A Plea for the Septuagint by Mogens Müller

David Paul

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/380547#Comment_380547

Okay, try this one on for size. Luke 4:16-21 says that Yeishuu`a rose to read from the scroll, and then it includes what He said as He "read". But...it doesn't match either the Hebrew or the LXX.

And...in case you missed it...He was reading from the scroll. In other words, it can't be chalked up as "He was quoting from memory."

Any thoughts or comments?

David Paul

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/380499#Comment_380499

Exodus 23:7 - do not slay the innocent and righteous - Dan. 13:53 - do not put to death an innocent and righteous person.

1 Sam. 28:7-20 – the intercessory mediation of deceased Samuel for Saul follows Sirach 46:20.

2 Kings 2:1-13 – Elijah being taken up into heaven follows Sirach 48:9.

Nice list. Thanks.

Not sure I understand why you included these last three, though...nor do I understand why you say that the OT quotes "follow" Sirach. That is clearly not accurate. Sirach (like Dan. 13) is indisputably later, and as such should be expected to reference scripture.

MJ. Smith

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/380555#Comment_380555

Any thoughts or comments?

That corresponds exactly to what I was saying and what the links supplied by fgh says. Or it is if by "Hebrew" you mean MT not Samaritan, Dead Sea or Qumran.

http://www.thejewishhome.org/counter/Luke4.pdf discusses the issue of this particular text.

MJ. Smith

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/380556#Comment_380556

Not sure I understand why you included these last three,

Because when I quote a source, even if I have appropriated the source into my Logos resources, I try not to edit the source - I'd rather be even-handed so that I can honestly state that I am providing additional material not pushing my personal agenda.

David Paul

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/380557#Comment_380557

That corresponds exactly to what I was saying and what the links supplied by fgh says. Or it is if by "Hebrew" you mean MT not Samaritan, Dead Sea or Qumran.

Yes, I was referencing the MT. But let's be entirely honest about the Luke 4 scenario...is there any reason to assume, suppose, or even imagine that the synogogue the He was attending was using (please hold the giggles and guffaws!) a Samaritan or Dead Sea/Qumran scroll?

It would be more likely that He was reading from the Reptilian version than either of the others.

EDIT: I will concede, upon further reflection, that some of the DSS may have come from non-Qumran sources--there is debate on the issue.

David Paul

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/380567#Comment_380567

Double post

MJ. Smith

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/380567#Comment_380567

.is there any reason to assume, suppose, or even imagine that the synogogue the He was attending was using (please hold the giggles and guffaws!) a Samaritan or Dead Sea/Qumran scroll?

Given that the variation in texts implies that there was no "canonical text" until after the time of Jesus, there is no evidence beyond the passage in Luke exactly what manuscript tradition was in His synagogue. Since we can't link Luke precisely to any of the manuscripts we have, I would assume that until additional manuscripts are discovered (if there are more to be discovered) my most honest answer is "I don't know and am not sure it is knowable."

David Paul

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/380576#Comment_380576

Well, my amused comment stems from the cultural context in place at the time. The Samaritans were despised by the Jews, and the Samaritan tohraah was "adjusted" to give certain textual blessing to their heritage. Based on this dynamic, I'd have to say the chances that the Jewish synagogue was using a Samaritan scroll is precisely zero.

The Qumran crowd mostly looked down their noses at both the Sadducees and Pharisees as hopelessly corrupt, and not without good reason. Since the synagogues were the domain of the Pharisees, essentially invented by them to draw the populace away from the Hellenized Sadducees and into their own sway, it seems highly unlikely that any Qumran scrolls (extremely expensive to produce and zealously prized and guarded by them) would end up in a Pharisaic synagogue. Zero again.

The DSS offer a slim chance, IF one allows for the possibility, as a small handful of scholars suggest, that they were not all Qumran products, but were in fact stored away by temple personnel in advance of the looming Roman armies of AD 68-70. That is rebuffed by most scholars, but who knows? Better than zero...but not by much.

I'm still reading the pdf you posted, but the general view of commentaries is that Yeishuu`a inserted a line from Isa. 58 into what He was supposedly "reading" from Isa. 61. The simple fact is, as the ultimate author of Isaiah's material, He really had no need to open the scroll to read it--He could have spoken it by heart. And, as the ultimate Author, if He wanted to "throw in" a verse (or two or three or more) while "reading" from the scroll, He was certainly within His right to do so. The opening of the scroll and finding Isa. 61 to read from was probably just as much theatrical as anything else. It clearly had more impact to do that than for Him to just spout it from the top of His head. After all, His claim was that He was "fulfilling scripture".

DMB

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/380621#Comment_380621

Goodness, David ... not to steal MJ's fallacy logo, but I couldn't even get past your first paragraph into your second. Just as an example, you've probably researched the proposal the early Qumran writings were early Saduccee. And jews vs Samaritans? Maybe judeans? Most recent scholars I've read are getting progressively more shy about standard 'groups' in Palestine given so little data.

And in your last paragraph, why would the text say he read it? There IS a likely reason.