It's really nice to be able to click on a greek word and hear the pronounciation.
Is Logos working on the same for Hebrew or do I have something shut off so I can 't hear it?
It is nearly the oldest pre-pub out there, but at a cheap price: http://www.logos.com/product/5960/hebrew-audio-pronunciations
The main issue, which Bob has posted on in the past, is that the Hebrew is beset with much more disputation with regard to proper pronunciation. They are working on it...but I have said in previous posts that I'd rather they didn't produce a Hebrew pronunciation that was horribly flawed.
We can't say with 100% certainty what Davidic Hebrew sounded like, that is true. But a great deal of what gets passed around as Hebrew today is demonstrably and eggregeously false. My contention is that it is far, far better for people to be in the dark about pronunciation than it is for people to be given a load of garbage under the pretense that it is truth. What benefit would that serve?
While I have other concerns, the poster child issue is the "waw" (English "W" sound), which is now pronounced in Modern Hebrew as "vav" (English "V" sound). It is the sixth letter in the Hebrew alepph beitth (<--even the way I spell this speaks to the multiplicity of issues raised by Hebrew--it is otherwise spelled aleph or alef & bet or beth or beit or beith, among other ways, with each spelling likely to elicit a different pronunciation by an English speaker). I recommend reading the Wikipedia article on waw.
Most non-Jews pronounce the waw as vav because that's what they hear Jewish people doing, and Hebrew is their language, right? They ought to know! Except these same people will turn around and pronounce the tetragrammaton as "Yahweh", because that's what the commentaries say, right? They ought to know! Except this introduces a significant contradiction. Because the tetragrammaton is yohdh - hei - waw - hei, it is usually pronounced as Yahweh (itself a debatable pronunciation) but in all other words they pronounce the waw as a Modern Hebrew vav. Some people choose to address the contradiction by pronouncing Yahweh as "Yahveh" instead. But that, as the Wikipedia article and many historians and linguists will attest, is going in the wrong direction in order to gain agreement.
The biggest issue is the influence that Modern Hebrew has on pronunciation. Even most Hebrew grammars say things that simply aren't true about letter pronunciation. The one I find most annoying is the nearly universal insistance that hheitth (heit or heith) and non-dagesh kapph (kaph or kaf) both have the same pronunciation, like the "ch" in Bach. WRONG!
There are many other similar issues...all of which makes Hebrew pronunciation an extremely difficult thing to reign in. When Logos does release its Hebrew guide, it will almost certainly be wrong...and most folks won't know or care. Better, in my view, to just not muddy the waters. Better to leave folks knowing they don't know than giving them the wrong impression that they do know when they still don't.
The main issue, which Bob has posted on in the past, is that the Hebrew is beset with much more disputation with regard to proper pronunciation.
That's your main issue; not Bob's. Here are a couple of his posts, the latest first:
with each spelling likely to elicit a different pronunciation by an English speaker
I've got news for you: Hebrew speakers use different pronunciations as well. [:D] That's one of the reasons we have so many different transliterations.
In the most recent scholarly research I've read, experts have been able to duplicate the hebrew that King David spoke within 96.8%. Surprisingly close.
So, yes, it's not 100% but soon everyone can literally speak like King David. Bathsheba's hebrew was somewhat different, not being from the south.
The main issue, which Bob has posted on in the past, is that the Hebrew is beset with much more disputation with regard to proper pronunciation. That's your main issue; not Bob's. As requested, an update on Hebrew Audio Pronunciations (http://www.logos.com/product/5960/hebrew-audio-pronunciations) We put this project on pre-pub prematurely, before we realized all the ways in which offering this for Hebrew are more complicated than for Greek. We've had enough interest to do the project -- and we want to do it -- but it's tied to some complicated issues related to how Hebrew dictionaries use different 'dictionary forms' (and are not always consistent between dictionaries and morphological analyses). It's not quite as easy as the Greek pronunciations.
That's your main issue; not Bob's.
As requested, an update on Hebrew Audio Pronunciations (http://www.logos.com/product/5960/hebrew-audio-pronunciations) We put this project on pre-pub prematurely, before we realized all the ways in which offering this for Hebrew are more complicated than for Greek. We've had enough interest to do the project -- and we want to do it -- but it's tied to some complicated issues related to how Hebrew dictionaries use different 'dictionary forms' (and are not always consistent between dictionaries and morphological analyses). It's not quite as easy as the Greek pronunciations.
As requested, an update on Hebrew Audio Pronunciations (http://www.logos.com/product/5960/hebrew-audio-pronunciations)
We put this project on pre-pub prematurely, before we realized all the ways in which offering this for Hebrew are more complicated than for Greek. We've had enough interest to do the project -- and we want to do it -- but it's tied to some complicated issues related to how Hebrew dictionaries use different 'dictionary forms' (and are not always consistent between dictionaries and morphological analyses). It's not quite as easy as the Greek pronunciations.
Honestly, what is up with all the unwarranted nick-picking of the stuff I post here? Short of quoting Bob verbatim, what I said is EXACTLY what he said.
Let me draw a MAP:
beset = complicated issues; disputation = not always consistent; proper pronunciation = it's not quite as easy as the Greek pronunciation.
[I]
with each spelling likely to elicit a different pronunciation by an English speaker I've got news for you: Hebrew speakers use different pronunciations as well. That's one of the reasons we have so many different transliterations.
I've got news for you: Hebrew speakers use different pronunciations as well. That's one of the reasons we have so many different transliterations.
Really? Wow, and here I thought it was because they were expelled from the land 2000 years ago and dispersed into areas all over the face of the globe and picked up habits and traditions over time from the areas they inhabited and carried them back with them when the zionist revival began about 100-150 years ago, resulting in Ben Yehuda's dictionary work and the decision/debate about which "historical foreign adjustments" to the language they were going to be "cannonized" in the work of the Academy of the Hebrew Language.
Thanks for clearing that up!
they were expelled from the land 2000 years ago and dispersed into areas
What about the Israelites who didn't go to Babylon but ended up in China, India, Northern Africa ... and those are just the groups I've run into. Political history isn't really "my thing".
I know this is an ignorant comment, becasue I'm too old to ever atempty to learn Greek or Hebrew. But I am curious why anyone in 2012 would want to pronounce the Hebrew from 3000 yrs. ago when you can't talk to them anymore?
Any Jewish people one migh talk to day live in the "hear and now". That's who we have to relavant to.
becasue I'm too old to ever atempty to learn Greek or Hebrew
Sacrilege!! I've read studies that learning new languages is among the best exercises to keep your brain sharp as you age.
why anyone in 2012 would want to pronounce the Hebrew from 3000 yrs. ago
It is useful for historical linguistics purposes especially for comparisons with other languages from the language family. When a word appears too few times to "fully determine" its meaning, one often resorts to historical linguistics.
There is MJ's reason, but the one that gnaws at me is actually rather more fundamental--simple internal consistency. If one doesn't pay attention to basic things like pronunciation, eventually you find yourself contradicting yourself. Some apparently don't care if or when that happens. In my mind, failure to remain internally consistent is just that--failure.
Also, there are homophones in Hebrew that share meaning because they are sound alikes. This connection can be lost if one isn't tuned in, so to speak.
Also, there is the fact, pointed out earlier, that there are many different pronunciations, some of which are dreadful. I have a CD of Hebrew vocabulary and the guy doing it insists on pronouncing the non-dagesh taaw (otherwise referrred to as taw or tav or even taf) as an English "hard th". When pronouncing "David", one of the only names used more than 1000 times in Scripture, he says it as "dah-WITH"...absolutely EXCRUCIATING. He learned that pronunciation from a Hebrew grammar book or teacher of both. Sad.
Another issue, one which I deal with constantly, since I attend a weekly Tohraah study, is the fact that I and others I know are constantly using Hebrew in our study and conversations. I sometimes find myself pronouncing words in ways others do just so I don't come off as though I'm constantly correcting others, even though their pronunciations often causes one word to sound like another.
An example is hhohdhesh (moon/month) and qohdhesh (holy). Some of my friends often pronounce these indentically as "chodesh" (kodesh) where the "ch" has a Greek "ch" sound of "K" [or as the Hebrew grammars wrongly insist, the "ch" of Bach]. That is close enough for qohdhesh, but it is unnervingly wrong for hhohdhesh, where the hh (hheitth) is properly pronounced as an aspirated "H" sound (which somewhat sounds like a person clearing his throat) . It is NOT a K sound. If it were, then Jews would be celebrating Kanukkah, not Hhanukkah.
There are other reasons, too, but I've said enough.
Let me piggyback on MJ's comment...it doesn't take that long to learn the basics of either Greek or Hebrew. I found Greek rather easy, while Hebrew was a bit more of a challenge to get started because of the difference of right-to-left, the vowel points, similarity of certain characters, and the silent letters that are described as consonants but only ever have a vowel sound. But after just a couple weeks in a Hebrew class, I was over the hump and on my way.
I say give them a try...I'd start with Hebrew, which I much prefer to Greek. It would be one of the best things you could ever do. I promise.
[:)] I appreciate the encouragment. You see I'm 65 and just love studying scripture for the few times I get to preach inour new Church plant. The rest of the time I just love to study. So learning Gk or Hb is not a very big prioriey. But showing of while preaching when I can pronounce a original word.......just kidding.
Just keep using that WD40 and you will remain spry for many years to come! [:)]
But showing of while preaching when I can pronounce a original word
As I read Acts, aren't preachers all multilingual without effort?[:P] Okay, maybe they were multilingual for a day but ...
[;)] Good point/catch. But only in Acts eh! [:)]
