Convince me: Hermeneia/Continental Commentaries

Ok, so 50% off on this set is a great deal. What I want to know is, do I really need it? How good do you feel it is? I currently own WBC, PNTC, BEC, NIGTC, NAC, Socio-rhetorical, NIVAC NT, and some other odds and ends, and I have the Hermeneia Enoch vol 1 in hard copy which I like because I like to study extra-canonical literature (which is part of the draw of the set for me). I WANT this set, but do I NEED it?

Discuss...

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DMB

I'd suspect this package (both Hermeneia and Continental) would 'fill in the blanks' for you. Although it tends toward the more liberal side of the house, if you want a commentary on Shepherd of Hermas, Didache, detailed discussion of 'Q', Apostolic Traditions, Ignatius, 4 Ezra and on and on, 'Herm' is pretty unique. Plus Genesis from Continental is good.

When I'm using WBC and want to see what is 'left' of center I used Herm until I got AYB. Now Herm, as above, fills in the blanks on other commentaries.

I can't imagine doing post-NT early church study without some type of commentaries on the apostolic father period. And their quite 'even'.

Joseph Turner

Awesome, thanks!

DMB

I think you'll get a lot more input after services tomorrow from the other pastors; you might want to 'bump' it back up?

DAL

Ok, so 50% off on this set is a great deal. What I want to know is, do I really need it? How good do you feel it is? I currently own WBC, PNTC, BEC, NIGTC, NAC, Socio-rhetorical, NIVAC NT, and some other odds and ends, and I have the Hermeneia Enoch vol 1 in hard copy which I like because I like to study extra-canonical literature (which is part of the draw of the set for me). I WANT this set, but do I NEED it?

Discuss...

I read in another thread (didn't take the time to look it up but I remember what it was said) and Mark Barnes wrote something along this line: "If you're going to use it to do a scholarly paper, yes, they are good; but not very useful for sermon preparation." In other words, for a research paper yes use it, but how many research papers will you be writing; then again, if it's just for sermon preparation, then they're not that useful due to them being to "technical."

DAL

PS. you WBC NIGTC and NIVAC along with BEC should do. If you have NICOT/NICNT even better - those will serve you more when it comes to sermon prep.

MJ. Smith

a scholarly paper, yes, they are good; but not very useful for sermon preparation

Some of us are lucky enough to have homilists who don't distinguish between scholarly and pastoral in researching their homilies. I haven't found the money for ICC yet but Hermeneia was an early absoluter requirement - one I'd been introduced to in parish adult ed.

David Paul

a scholarly paper, yes, they are good; but not very useful for sermon preparation

Some of us are lucky enough to have homilists who don't distinguish between scholarly and pastoral in researching their homilies. I haven't found the money for ICC yet but Hermeneia was an early absoluter requirement - one I'd been introduced to in parish adult ed.

Due to our different "traditions", I don't use the same terminology, such as "homilies"...but I certainly agree that not drawing a distinction between scholarly and pastoral is a positive. If it matters at all--I mean REALLY matters--then it matters for all. Ignorance of the issues at hand leads to ignorant misunderstandings. I can't think of anything that I know about God that I would ever feel comfortable saying others "don't need to know". Granted, I spend more time in study than anyone I know personally, and most of the people I know "have lives" and thus limited time to devote to scriptural matters. But nevertheless, I still feel they need to be up to speed on the stuff that we "hardcore" Logos users encounter in our scripture-mining and textual wrestling.

In my weekly Bible study sessions, we grapple with the Hebrew and Greek constantly. In studies I lead, I bring up whatever issues I think are germane, which usually means everything I can think of that touches on the issue at hand. I don't ever hold back because I worry I might "be over someone's head" or "might bore someone with too much detail". I feel that it would be both arrogant and a dereliction of duty to not share the relevant material I have encountered and uncovered, regardless of how "challenging" or "difficult" it might be.

As a special ed teacher, I had classroom observers over the years tell me on more than one occasion that I was guilty of talking over my students' heads and using vocabulary they wouldn't understand (even though I always rephrased such statements in simpler terms). I had one young man tell me that mine was the class he had to work the hardest in (in truth, it was probably the only one where he had to do any work at all). He also said my class was the only class in which he had an A. The observers, all of them, were wrong.

I also had a boy promise me that he was going to drop out when he turned 16. On his sixteenth birthday, he did just that. When I was filling out his final report card, I saw all of his grades. He had 4 classes: his grades were 23, 7, and 0...and in my class he had a 100. To get that grade, he had to correctly orally identify on blank maps the correct names of every state, province, and country in the western hemisphere (excepting the smaller Caribbean islands). I never once graded on a curve.

Dumbing down the curriculum, whether it is public school, Sunday school, Sabbath school, or what have you, is a disservice to all, whether they appreciate that or not.

Joseph Turner

I guess it would be useful to know what I use Logos for. I would consider myself firmly on the conservative side of the fence, even though I may get strange looks from time to time from some of my Southern Baptist friends for not towing the line in some areas. I enjoy studying critical scholarship because I like to know all of the information so that I can make an informed decision about issues. I also teach a high school course on biblical and extra-biblical literature, and critical scholarship usually soars when it comes to literary construction and the like. Lastly, I teach Sunday School, but I don't see Hermeneia being one of my go-to commentaries for that. I have an MA in biblical studies so I am ok with the technical aspects of the series.

Thanks for all of the input so far. I will see what others say after church. My Logos dealer....I mean my rep is going to like hearing from me! I already have a payment plan going. If I can add it together and get the monthly payments to where I want them then I will probably go for it. I just don't think I can pass it up.

George Somsel

I read in another thread (didn't take the time to look it up but I remember what it was said) and Mark Barnes wrote something along this line: "If you're going to use it to do a scholarly paper, yes, they are good; but not very useful for sermon preparation." In other words, for a research paper yes use it, but how many research papers will you be writing; then again, if it's just for sermon preparation, then they're not that useful due to them being to "technical."

I really don't buy that argument. You need to have a solid foundation in the study of the text in order to provide any true "meat" in a homily. The fact that so many sermons are milktoast is most probably attributable to the fact that the sermonizers aren't digging deeply enough into the text to actually get to the kernel of the passage. Relying on "homiletical" commentaries make for poor teaching.

Unix

Well do You think the authors of homiletical commentaries in their turn relied on homiletical commentaries or technical critical ones? And what should Turner rely on when it comes to Qôheleth? Personally, I use Believer's Church Bible Commentary for it, and considering purchasing the Ep volume also.I really don't buy that argument. You need to have a solid foundation in the study of the text in order to provide any true "meat" in a homily. [...] Relying on "homiletical" commentaries make for poor teaching.

George Somsel

Well do You think the authors of homiletical commentaries in their turn relied on homiletical commentaries or technical critical ones? And what should Turner rely on when it comes to Qôheleth? Personally, I use Believer's Church Bible Commentary for it, and considering purchasing the Ep volume also.I really don't buy that argument. You need to have a solid foundation in the study of the text in order to provide any true "meat" in a homily. [...] Relying on "homiletical" commentaries make for poor teaching.

No comment since I'm not familiar with that set. I think a good many of those who write homiletical commentaries either rely on other homiletical commentaries or simply don't dig into the text sufficiently. For them it is enough to state something which sounds pious.

Joseph Turner

Well do You think the authors of homiletical commentaries in their turn relied on homiletical commentaries or technical critical ones? And what should Turner rely on when it comes to Qôheleth? Personally, I use Believer's Church Bible Commentary for it, and considering purchasing the Ep volume also.I really don't buy that argument. You need to have a solid foundation in the study of the text in order to provide any true "meat" in a homily. [...] Relying on "homiletical" commentaries make for poor teaching.

Well, currently I use WBC or NAC for Ecclesiastes (Qôheleth), so I don't know that this would be a determining factor.

Joseph Turner

I read in another thread (didn't take the time to look it up but I remember what it was said) and Mark Barnes wrote something along this line: "If you're going to use it to do a scholarly paper, yes, they are good; but not very useful for sermon preparation." In other words, for a research paper yes use it, but how many research papers will you be writing; then again, if it's just for sermon preparation, then they're not that useful due to them being to "technical."

DAL

PS. you WBC NIGTC and NIVAC along with BEC should do. If you have NICOT/NICNT even better - those will serve you more when it comes to sermon prep.

Yeah, but it IS actually more for research, since it is more for teaching academically, as well as the added "benefit" to my poor SS class.[:|] I am not a preacher, but I agree that it would not be best suited for sermon building, as there are other scholarly, yet accessible commentaries to choose from. NICOT/NICNT are too rich for my blood as a set, as has Hermeneia been historically, but this sell is tempting me something fierce!

Unix

The Mt 8-20 -commentary which I bought as printed matter (not that expensive, and You would profit from lower postage than I did if You live in the US) has been a relief, look at this:
http://www.christianforums.com/t7644799-4/#post60163469
... note that the heretics specifically use the Mt passage.
Do You want to see more pages from the Mt commentary on that Scripture passage?

Are You ready to omit verses and/or refer to Hermeneia when You teach why a specific passage that is not omitted in any Bibles, should be omitted? Do You expect the high-school students (who don't have and won't afford to for many years to have the Hermeneia set) to easily agree on the statements. Well on second thought probably the will, they probably see You as an authority, I think that if they are listening to such a class they must be serious for their age.

But I talked to a 20-year old girl in a small Pentecostal Church today at 3 pm local time, over here in Sweden. She is in Sweden this summer (and I guess all summers) to take a driving license. She is studying in the US in a 4-year Bible College that leads to a degree. The Bible College uses the KJV and says that not too many commentaries should be used as they are only opinions and the whole focus of the Bible College is on what the Bible itself says. + they recommend, if necessary, only some specific commentary -series. This girl hasn't bought any commentaries or any Bible study software yet, but is a bit interested in Bible study software but is discouraged because she's heard that Bible study software tends to be expensive.

You mentioned an additional cost of $100. The future upgrades will cost many times more but it can take a while, these commentaries are published a slow pace instead of being rushed. Good authors to be contracted are not necessarily found/working at a given moment.

Joseph Turner

I read in another thread (didn't take the time to look it up but I remember what it was said) and Mark Barnes wrote something along this line: "If you're going to use it to do a scholarly paper, yes, they are good; but not very useful for sermon preparation." In other words, for a research paper yes use it, but how many research papers will you be writing; then again, if it's just for sermon preparation, then they're not that useful due to them being to "technical."

I really don't buy that argument. You need to have a solid foundation in the study of the text in order to provide any true "meat" in a homily. The fact that so many sermons are milktoast is most probably attributable to the fact that the sermonizers aren't digging deeply enough into the text to actually get to the kernel of the passage. Relying on "homiletical" commentaries make for poor teaching.

I do agree with this. We have so many preachers that get their theological positions from popular media and who don't really understand the Bible deeply, who are just creating congregations of ignorant Christians. The funny thing is that it is these types of pastors that I find will be the first to talk negatively about THOSE SCHOLARS. I got into a debate with a dear friend of mine the other day concerning a popular Southern Baptist theological position with which I disagree, and so he gave me a book to read by C. R. Stam (Things That Differ). When I argued that I felt Stam had misrepresented a Greek translation to make his point, he said, "I'm not a KJV only guy, but the idea that we need a Strong's concordance and a phd in Hebrew and Greek to glean the meaning of scripture concerns me." Now I am not fluent in Greek or Hebrew either, but the thought that there would need to be any deep digging to understand, or argue a point about the Bible was disconcerting to him. My friend is very intelligent, but the attitude in many churches in the South is that your salvation is not just tied to your faith in Christ, but also your like mindedness concerning creation, end times, etc... It is as though if you start thinking on your own or digging deeply into the context of scripture then you are opening yourself up to all kinds of satanic influences! Once you question the Word of God (some pastors' interpretations), then you are questioning Christ himself, and that is not Christian. That was the message of the good people from Answers in Genesis, who my church invited to speak to our congregation.[:$]

By the way, I do attend a Southern Baptist Church, so I am not talking negatively about Southern Baptists in general. I don't have to agree with every position to enjoy being there! My pastor is also usually not anti-intellectual, and I love his preaching style. I did not like the AIG people being invited to my church, as they did not act in Christian manner.

Joseph Turner

But I talked to a 20-year old girl in a small Pentecostal Church today at 3 pm local time, over here in Sweden. She is in Sweden this summer (and I guess all summers) to take a driving license. She is studying in the US in a 4-year Bible College that leads to a degree. The Bible College uses the KJV and says that not too many commentaries should be used as they are only opinions and the whole focus of the Bible College is on what the Bible itself says. + they recommend, if necessary, only some specific commentary -series. This girl hasn't bought any commentaries or any Bible study software yet, but is a bit interested in Bible study software but is discouraged because she's heard that Bible study software tends to be expensive.

That is funny. I thought you were saying that she was in school in Sweden and was told that. I was going to say, "Ah, then it is not just in the Southern United States." Then I re-read your post and realized that it is in the US, and probably the Southern US.[:@] We do have some great Christian schools in the South though!

Randall Hartman

No. You don't need it. Really you don't.

Joseph Turner

Are You ready to omit verses and/or refer to Hermeneia when You teach why a specific passage that is not omitted in any Bibles, should be omitted? Do You expect the high-school students (who don't have and won't afford to for many years to have the Hermeneia set) to easily agree on the statements. Well on second thought probably the will, they probably see You as an authority, I think that if they are listening to such a class they must be serious for their age.

Just because I use it for research doesn't mean that I have to agree with everything that it says, or even teach what it says. The class is in public schools and teaches the Bible from a literary perspective. Whenever issues come up, then all logical sides are presented. I stay away from anything too controversial. The most controversial issue that I have to deal with is when I present different interpretations of the creation narrative. I give each one equal time, pointing out the pros and cons of each. Once I survie creation, the rest is gravy!

As an example of what you seem concerned about would be John 7:53-8:11 (the woman caught in adultery). We talk about the oldest texts not having that passage, and that it has also been found in various places in a couple of the other gospels. We talk about the issues, and then we move on. No one's head has exploded yet!

Unix

This is going to be sort of just a side note. Funny. I just wrote in my review of OLL today that it doesn't include Strong's and that I'm happy about that. A Bible study software with an interlinear and [url="http://www.logos.com/product/3878/a-greek-english-lexicon-of-the-new-testament-and-other-early-christian-literature-3rd-ed"]BDAG[/url] is a leap (supposing the question wasn't regarding a wrong interpretation of the Septuagint which the BDAG doesn't include as You know). (Or maybe this friend wanted to say that any interlinear and lexicon is inferior to a Bible [preached well].)

"I'm not a KJV only guy, but the idea that we need a Strong's concordance [...]

Regarding Your post in general, I balance my time between studies and Church attendance. Why sit endlessly in Church and not devout Yourself with faith to the Bible - the pastor will never have time to tell You everything or even most of what it's profitable to hear/read? And I'm really not that passive at Church. I type the sermon I hear on a laptop, and later on attach it as (a) note/notes in appropriate places in my (Logos or print, my print one is smaller although I currently have more print commentaries than electronic ones if I'm not going to buy the Hermeneia Continental Commentaries bundle) library.

Well, the Hermeneia Continental Commentaries is quite controversial. Then You are probably not going to include too much of it in Your final teaching.

Take for example the omission of Mt passage I mentioned - omission not attested by manuscript finds, do You not find that controversial - are You ready for that? Or the Documentary Hypothesis (Gn).

I stay away from anything too controversial. [...] Once I survie creation, the rest is gravy!

George Somsel

Now I am not fluent in Greek or Hebrew either, but the thought that there would need to be any deep digging to understand, or argue a point about the Bible was disconcerting to him. My friend is very intelligent, but the attitude in many churches in the South is that your salvation is not just tied to your faith in Christ, but also your like mindedness concerning creation, end times, etc... It is as though if you start thinking on your own or digging deeply into the context of scripture then you are opening yourself up to all kinds of satanic influences! Once you question the Word of God (some pastors' interpretations), then you are questioning Christ himself, and that is not Christian. That was the message of the good people from Answers in Genesis, who my church invited to speak to our congregation.

That is the problem with a position that is doctrinally oriented rather than faith oriented. We are called to believe in Jesus Christ, not to accept certain teachings. If one must accept THEIR interpretation of Genesis, e.g., in order to be considered Christian, how much else must one accept doctrinally? If someone differs in any point, is he no longer a Christian? This is a gnostic view that one's well-being is determined by what one knows (or claims he knows). That is not faith yet many seem to make acceptance of their view of Genesis a sine qua non.

MJ. Smith

it IS actually more for research, since it is more for teaching academically,

Okay, you finally got to the key point. What I can tell you is that 3 different schools within the Graduate Theological Union (Berkeley) had us use Hermeneia as our primary commentary. The professors included (a) a Catholic nun (b) an Israeli professor from Jerusalem and (c) a female UCC pastor.

Joseph Turner

it IS actually more for research, since it is more for teaching academically,

Okay, you finally got to the key point. What I can tell you is that 3 different schools within the Graduate Theological Union (Berkeley) had us use Hermeneia as our primary commentary. The professors included (a) a Catholic nun (b) an Israeli professor from Jerusalem and (c) a female UCC pastor.

This is good information. Out of curiosity, what did they recommend to fill in for the missing volumes? AB?

DAL

a scholarly paper, yes, they are good; but not very useful for sermon preparation

Some of us are lucky enough to have homilists who don't distinguish between scholarly and pastoral in researching their homilies. I haven't found the money for ICC yet but Hermeneia was an early absoluter requirement - one I'd been introduced to in parish adult ed.

Well, correction: I meant "Academic paper" not "scholarly paper." Someone once said, "We don't have to be scholars to study the Bible, but we can all be scholarly" or something along those lines [8-|] Anyway, I believe some "preachers" get to technical during their sermon and their communication of academic studies that they totally lose the audience and as a result nobody is touched by the Word because the messenger failed to focus on the soul saving message and instead tried to "impress" the crowd with all his "technical jargon." A sermon doesn't need to sound "pious" it just needs to be Scriptural and God will do the rest in touching men's hearts. A little Hebrew and a little Greek here and there yes, by all means, but sometimes the most embarrassing and ignorant words a "minister" can utter are: "Well, the Hebrew/Greek says..." or "Hermeneia, one of the most respected commentaries says..." In answer to that, it is said that an old lady once said, "Well, the Bible can sure shed some light on what that commentary says..." LOL Anyway, to the OP, if you have the money and you want to spend it, go for it, I'm sure you can learn something from that set and the Bible will help you shed some light on it... [:P] [;)]...I know if I could afford that set and NICOT/NICNT I would buy them, but as of now, just being a part time minister won't allow me to keep spending money on books like I used to when I was preaching full time. Anyway, have a great evening!

Blessings!

DAL

DMB

I notice this forum tends to associate 'pastors' with 'sermons'. Is it good for a sermon?

Our pastor (and I suspect most) spend considerably more time in Bible classes, emails with members and just basic talking with the believers and near-believers. Some want hard data and no compromise; some just want confirmation they're on-track; others really are most interested in encouragement. I'm glad ours moves across the gamut and seems to enjoy it.

Mike Childs

Well, I am convinced. Unfortunately, I am also broke.

Eric Weiss

I bit the bullet today, and put it on a 4-month payment plan (i.e., $20 in fees). From the few things I've looked at so far on my iPhone (esoteric stuff like The Apostolic Tradition and The Didache), this is going to be nice! There are actually 74 volumes - 55 Hermeneia + 19 Continental - because of the way some things like The Apostolic Tradition and Q (and GThomas from Q) are broken up.

Joseph Turner

I'm glad I did it as well. I am reading Collins' introduction to Daniel right now. The series seems to be very well organized which makes it easy to move through a volume. That is one thing that bothers me about WBC. There are so many subsections for a given passage that I feel like I need to look around a lot. Congratulations!

George Somsel

That is one thing that bothers me about WBC. There are so many subsections for a given passage that I feel like I need to look around a lot.

So you noticed that as well. Apparently the series was designed for print with little or no thought given to ebooks.