Greek Stem Search

I think I determined from other posts that this isn't easy to do in Logos, but I wanted to confirm my understanding of reading earlier posts.

I'm wanting to search the Greek stem "μόρφ" (morph) to return results such as "μετεμορφώθη" (metamorphothe) and "συμμορφούμενος" (summorphoumenos). I've run a simple search in BibleWorks for .*μόρφ* and returned:

Matt. 17:2
Mk. 9:2
Mk. 16:12
Rom. 2:20
Rom. 8:29
Rom. 12:2
2 Co. 3:18
Gal. 4:19
Phil. 2:6-7
Phil. 3:10, 21
2 Tim. 3:5

How do I run the same search in Logos?

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Comments

MJ. Smith

I hope that I am wrong but it appears as though it can't be done - or is at least a bit more complicated than my approaches.

David Thomas

This search came up with similar results but didn't catch Rom 2:20, 8:29 or 2 Tim 3:5

David Thomas

This search caught more of the list - I don't know why it didn't catch Rom 8:29

NB.Mick

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/388235#Comment_388235

This search caught more of the list - I don't know why it didn't catch Rom 8:29

The accents are the problem. I bible-searched for *μορφ* OR *μόρφ* and got all the 13 verses

David Thomas

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/388248#Comment_388248

The accents are the problem. I bible-searched for *μορφ* OR *μόρφ* and got all the 13 verses

I don't know why I am getting only 10 hits when I try your query. I've tried both UBS4 and NA27 and I've tried input with both the logos transliterated keyboard and cut and paste from shibboleth.

NB.Mick

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/388256#Comment_388256

I don't know why I am getting only 10 hits when I try your query. I've tried both UBS4 and NA27 and I've tried input with both the logos transliterated keyboard and cut and paste from shibboleth.

Strange. By looking at your screenshot, it seems there is a "straight" accent, like an apostrophe / single quote mark (in some fonts, such as this forum's) on the omikron instead of an acute, which should be leaning to the top-right. Did you mistype in Shibboleth?

I input the non-accented text by switching my keyboard from DE (German - yours probably shows EN right now) to EL (Greek) and typing the "morf" part. When the search missed some purported results I suspected the accents and checked Rm 2:20 in NA 27. When I located the characters, I simply copy-pasted from there into the search field - voila.

Shawn Nichols

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/388256#Comment_388256

It looks like it's a known needed improvement. See http://community.logos.com/forums/t/16050.aspx?PageIndex=1and vote to encourage Logos to modify. My seminary is requiring Logos for language study (a recent switch from BibleWorks) and I'm finding some of the basics difficult. Needless to say, if this requires a forum post (stress marks or not) it's too difficult.

David Thomas

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/388266#Comment_388266

Did you mistype in Shibboleth?

That is a good observation, that is the type of typo that I would make, but I double checked and correctly selected the acute accent

However, when I cut and paste the form from Rom 2:20 (as you did) I get the 13 hits.

I think the original comment may be on to something that this is an area where a little tweaking could make a better product.

NB.Mick

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/388273#Comment_388273

I double checked and correctly selected the acute accent.. However, when I cut and paste the form from Rom 2:20 (as you did) I get the 13 hits.

I can replicate this and see only 10 hits as well. I haven't run it through all different copy-options of Shibboleth (you see my machine runs a tad slower than yours), but it seems this is unwanted behavior of this extra-Tool (maybe a BUG?). I'm not aware if this is known as a limitation (it shouldn't be - and at least L4 should understand Shibboleth's output) or if there are any other users who could chime in. What Logos version you're on? I'm on latest beta.

Maybe a bug report will help. EDIT: posted here: http://community.logos.com/forums/t/53185.aspx - in the beta forum, Logos personnel usually pick up on this things and may clarify.

Mick

Keep Smiling 4 Jesus :)

I've run a simple search in BibleWorks for .*μόρφ* and returned:

Matt. 17:2
Mk. 9:2
Mk. 16:12
Rom. 2:20
Rom. 8:29
Rom. 12:2
2 Co. 3:18
Gal. 4:19
Phil. 2:6-7
Phil. 3:10, 21
2 Tim. 3:5

How do I run the same search in Logos?

In Logos 4, personally right clicked on a word, then opened Lexham Analytical Lexicon to the Greek New Testament, which is my highest prioritized lexicon with Greek lemma indexing. Then copied list of cognate words into a morph search, adding lemma: prefix to each lemma and deleting extra words, followed by doing a morph search for cognate lemma's:

Keep Smiling [:)]

NB.Mick

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/388318#Comment_388318

I've run a simple search in BibleWorks for .*μόρφ* .... how do I run the same search in Logos?

In Logos 4, personally right clicked on a word, then opened Lexham Analytical Lexicon to the Greek New Testament, which is my highest prioritized lexicon with Greek lemma indexing. Then copied list of cognate words into a morph search

Now the masters chime in! I was about to test the morph search thing (coming from Mark Barnes' explanation here: http://community.logos.com/forums/p/41389/309557.aspx#309557 ) but got sidetracked by our different results with bible search. Do you have any explanation? Searching for *μόρφ* does or does not yield results, depending on where you copy it from/how you input it - if I saw correct, even when you copy it from here in the forums: *μόρφ* may work and give three hits (copied over from L4), *μόρφ*, looking the same and copied from Shibboleth or the original post here may give zero.

Bradley Grainger (Logos)

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/388358#Comment_388358

*μόρφ* may work and give three hits (copied over from L4), *μόρφ*, looking the same and copied from Shibboleth or the original post here may give zero.

This is caused by a technical aspect of Unicode, known as "normalization". Currently, Logos 4 wildcard searches (that aren't simple trailing wildcards) will only match if the normalization form of the query and the resource are the same. Unfortunately, as you've discovered, Logos 4 uses "Form C" and Shibboleth uses "Form D" (which are different), so the search engine fails to find a match. This incompatibility should be fixed in 4.6.

However, you'll still need to run an OR search (with an accented and an unaccented omicron, as in your post here: http://community.logos.com/forums/p/53172/388248.aspx#388248) to find all thirteen occurrences.

NB.Mick

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/389987#Comment_389987

This is caused by a technical aspect of Unicode, known as "normalization". Currently, Logos 4 wildcard searches (that aren't simple trailing wildcards) will only match if the normalization form of the query and the resource are the same. Unfortunately, as you've discovered, Logos 4 uses "Form C" and Shibboleth uses "Form D" (which are different), so the search engine fails to find a match.

Thanks a lot for clearing up the mistery....

This incompatibility should be fixed in 4.6.

....and even more for fixing it!

David Thomas

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/389989#Comment_389989

Thank you for fixing this bug!

Shawn Nichols

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/389987#Comment_389987

This incompatibility should be fixed in 4.6.

However, you'll still need to run an OR search (with an accented and an unaccented omicron

An improvement, but far from "fixed." We're being compelled to move from BibleWorks to Logos in our seminary work. I would love to drop BibleWorks all together but the fact remains that their Bible text search is significantly easier. As you know, accent marks can change based on the conjugation of the word or the text being searched. It's less of a problem when you're searching for an entire word. But when you're searching for a stem the search string can get quite long.

The technical explanation of the problem is Greek to me (pun intended) but it would validate Logos in the mind of original language scholars if a better solution were forthcoming. Is there a way for the search function to remove accent marks?

Rich DeRuiter

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/390416#Comment_390416

For those who want to be able to do this directly, be sure to vote for this item at uservoice:

http://logos.uservoice.com/forums/42823-logos-bible-software-4/suggestions/682641-stem-cognate-search

NB.Mick

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/389987#Comment_389987

*μόρφ* may work and give three hits (copied over from L4), *μόρφ*, looking the same and copied from Shibboleth or the original post here may give zero.

This is caused by a technical aspect of Unicode, known as "normalization". Currently, Logos 4 wildcard searches (that aren't simple trailing wildcards) will only match if the normalization form of the query and the resource are the same. Unfortunately, as you've discovered, Logos 4 uses "Form C" and Shibboleth uses "Form D" (which are different), so the search engine fails to find a match. This incompatibility should be fixed in 4.6.

It seems this is fixed in the new 4.6 beta 5 - I retested the above and it found the three hits of *μόρφ* with accent, copied from Shibboleth. Thanks!