The future of Logos on the Mac?

Warning: Personal opinion ahead. Make sure you have your boots on.

Where does Logos plan to go with the Mac version in the future? Will development continue along current lines, incremental updates to keep it in pace with Windows features? Will more attention be given to cleaning up the current version to fix its clunkiness and lack of elegance? Will there be a major new build that avoids many of the current problems?

I love Logos on the PC, but I much prefer my Mac to my PC. Logos on the PC is responsive, elegant, and dare I say, a pleasure to use. But the Mac version is still sluggish and clunky, lacking some of the elegance of the PC version. Some of my sluggishness is due to the age of my Mac, but that's only part of the problem. And much of the elegance have to do with UI elements that have never received necessary polish (the command bar, menu arrangement, etc). Some of this may simply be a matter of personal preference, but the Logos for Mac interface does not have a polished, modern feel.

Every now and then in a fit of frustration I go buy some other module from Accordance, spend five minutes with it, curse in Hebrew, and switch back to Logos. My dilemma is that Accordance for Mac works very well, is very responsive, etc, but even the latest version is, IMO, somewhat obsolete in what it can do and lacks most of the power found in Logos. I could go on about my Accordance issues, but that's not the point here. On the other hand, Logos has a tremendous set of features, a phenomenal number of resources, works very well on the PC, has a great iOS app, but remains poor on the Mac. Logos has brought the Mac version a long way, but not far enough. I can work with it, I can get by with it, I can do what I need to do with it, but it does not provide the same experience of the PC version. It is not a particular pleasure to use, and I'd like to know if that will change in the future.

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Kevin A. Purcell

Someone from Logos can better answer your questions however I can say that they just announced they would stop supporting older versions of winows and osx so I am betting that will help them jump forward abandoning some of the legacy stuff that kept them from moving forward faster. So I'm hopeful that they will be moving forward on the Mac. I doubt that they will be abandoning since so some of the big cheese at Logos have stated they are mac users.

Donovan R. Palmer

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/395315#Comment_395315

At least on the Mac side of the house, I have started to equate Logos 4 as Windows ME. I've crashed it twice this weekend and found several UI issues. So with that in mind, I think we need to hope that Logos 5 Mac is better.

In the meantime, it is going to be interesting to see where Accordance goes with version 10.

tom

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/395316#Comment_395316

At least on the Mac side of the house, I have started to equate Logos 4 as Windows ME

FYI... when L4 came out for Windows, it too was equated with Windows ME (and Windows Vista) by many many many users. Just check the forums post from 2009 & 2010.

fgh

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/395316#Comment_395316

It's a bit [less than] funny that 'Logos 4 Mac' reads as 'Logos for Mac'. It feels more like 'Logos not for Mac'.

I keep insisting that L4Mac isn't a Mac program. It's a Windows program that [sort of] runs on Mac. With the stress on 'sort of'.

Let's hope L5Mac really is 'Logos for Mac'.

Dan Francis

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/395324#Comment_395324

Bob has admitted big mistakes were made in the implementation of Logos Mac, to me too it feels much like a wolf in sheep's clothing but I do feel in someways it is getting better. I am less hopefully for L5 than fgh, not because i doubt Logos' desire to make a wonderful product, but I do doubt the desire to completely rip the guts out and more or less start from square one, as they did with both sides of the software with Logos4. I love Logos and I do really love Accordance too, they both serve me well in different ways, which I will not go on about here, due to not wishing to appear to be promoting them and violating forum guidelines. I will not get rid of either but hope the mac side of Logos can progress faster… maybe some ingenious person over at Logos will prove me wrong and correct the poor programming choices made by higher ups, in the past. Please Logos Mac programers, do prove my fears wrong…..

-Dan

Fr. Charles R. Matheny

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/395379#Comment_395379

Dear Dan: I could be wrong or, could have misunderstood but, I think Bob recently ( In one of the other threads a week or two ago) indicated Mono and something else were not going to change. What I got from it was they were too heavily invested at this point to reverse/change course.

Again, I could easily have misunderstood the technical language. If I understood correctly, I think he was indicating they were just going to have to keep working with what they have and try to make it better.

Opinion: I think all the links to asking for better performance were taken off the list ( Can't remember what the list was called, but you could vote for the things you most wanted fixed, parity issues etc.) Performance/Speed was removed last I looked.

I think they are just trying to get what they have, going as best they can.

Hope this helps in some small way.

Keep Smiling 4 Jesus :)

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/395383#Comment_395383

( Can't remember what the list was called, but you could vote for the things you most wanted fixed, parity issues etc.) Performance/Speed was removed last I looked.

Logos User Voice has an item with 25 votes => Improve Logos 4 Menu Responsiveness that is an issue in Logos 4 on Mac and PC, which has received attention. Logos 4 still has click and wait opportunities for improvement on Mac and PC (e.g. couple seconds for File menu to appear on an Intel P8400 CPU). Ideally menu response would be quick (sub-second much preferred) on hardware meeting recommended system requirements.

Keep Smiling [:)]

DominicM

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/395385#Comment_395385

With all the Native cross-platform compiliers out there I expect L4M to reach parity with L4W fairly quickly, it just depends on what programming tool they are using.. as previoulsly said dropping the legacy stuff will enable a giant step forward, achieve dare I use the swear word "parity", the future looks a lot brighter for L4M, and if its native compiled, they might beable to drop mono too

tom

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/395379#Comment_395379

I am less hopefully for L5

Same here. I expect the same bad performance and same amount of bugs in L5 as L4 because I have not seen anything change at Logos indicating that they have changed their design/development process.

What they did before L4 seemed to work. Now because they are bigger, their process of design and development did not change to reflect this change, and now they are reaping what they have sown.

There are times, as the great theologian Kenny Rogers once said, "You got to know when to hold 'em, know when to fold 'em, Know when to walk away and know when to run." It is well past time IMHO to run from L4.

Wes Saad

Kevin,

Perhaps, but I'm not sure of anything dropped since Leopard that would help application performance.

Tom,

The difference being that the early problems with Logos 4 on the PC were corrected whereas we continue to have notable on the Mac. Plus many of the issues with Logos 4 initially were often due to people adjusting to the new interface or lamenting missing features. Neither are the case now.

Dan,

It's getting better, but very slowly and I don't see any reason to think that the biggest issues will be fixed so long as things continue at the current pace, which is why I ask about Logos' approach in the future. If incremental updates continue, I don't know that we'll ever get where we need to be. Logos won't need to start over from scratch, but something major needs to happen to improve the Mac version.

As for Accordance, you're right: they are different programs that do different things. I don't know why I have only just realized this, but Accordance is much more an equivalent to BibleWorks than to Logos. Comparing Accordance to BibleWorks, it fares a lot better. Compared to Logos, they are very different products.

Charles,

I'm not sure which is causing most of the problems: running the library through Mono or whatever approach Logos has taken with the UI code. Most of my daily issues deal with UI quirks, a lack of visual polish that Logos should be able to address without touching anything dealing with Mono.

Dominic,

Mono is the native compiler of .NET code for the Mac. Logos is not going to be able to move away from Mono so long as they share .NET code between the Mac and PC, an arrangement that is not likely to change (for good reasons yet reasons which probably do contribute to performance issues on the Mac).

Tom,

What Logos did prior to L4 was to not have much of a Mac version. There was a Mac version but it was little more than a basic reader and it took years to get that much. L4 has at least given Mac users a powerful Bible study platform. It remains the best option for me on the Mac, but I certainly hope to see solid improvements.

fgh

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/395379#Comment_395379

I am less hopefully for L5 than fgh

Hoping and being hopeful isn't necessarily the same thing...

Please Logos Mac programers

That's part of the problem: they're not really 'Mac programmers'. They're trained on Windows, and they think like Windows programmers. They can't seem to find any Mac devs to hire -- which isn't particularly surprising if you ask me (not that anyone has...): I imagine most 'real' Mac devs wouldn't want to work with a Windows program like L4Mac -- unless they were given a carte blanche to turn it into a real Mac program. Which I doubt is on Logos' radar.

( Can't remember what the list was called, but you could vote for the things you most wanted fixed, parity issues etc.) Performance/Speed was removed last I looked.

Logos User Voice has an item with 25 votes => Improve Logos 4 Menu Responsiveness that is an issue in Logos 4 on Mac and PC, which has received attention.

I suspect he was thinking of Focus on Code/Performance Optimization which used to be top of the list and had 899 votes when Bob decided it was "Completed". (OK, his argument is actually quite reasonable.)

KPK

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/395462#Comment_395462

All these technical talk I can't understand:D

But we are getting close to Logos 5 right, 4.6 was just released?

Butters

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/395462#Comment_395462

Your post is spot on imo......

I imagine most 'real' Mac devs wouldn't want to work with a Windows program like L4Mac -- unless they were given a carte blanche to turn it into a real Mac program. Which I doubt is on Logos' radar.

....the question about THIS^ is, "why not?"

tom

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/395481#Comment_395481

....the question about THIS^ is, "why not?"

$$$$ - The same reason why they are not going to scrap L4 for Windows and start again.

Wes Saad

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/395530#Comment_395530

....the question about THIS^ is, "why not?"

$$ - The same reason why they are not going to scrap L4 for Windows and start again.

Strictly speaking, it's not that simple. It makes good sense to maintain a common codebase and common UI and it is quite common for cross-platform apps to have the same (or similar) ui on different platforms, particularly for more complicated apps. Look at the entire Adobe Creative Suite line, for example. It greatly simplifies bug checking and feature parity while also simplifying support by not having to maintain separate support teams for the different interfaces. This is about more than just money, more than just the cost of adding new people, but helping to ensure efficiency. So again, I understand why Logos has chosen their approach, but I hope we can have some assurance that they are finding ways to offer substantial improvements in the future.

Fr. Charles R. Matheny

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/395535#Comment_395535

Quote"I suspect he was thinking of Focus on Code/Performance Optimization which used to be top of the list and had 899 votes when Bob decided it was "Completed". (OK, his argument is actually quite reasonable.) " End Quote

Yes. that was the section I was speaking of.

No, I don't know how his argument can be reasonable when the code is still quite dysfunctional and thus the program is slow-painfully slow.

Examples: Change layouts: Often think program has crashed- then it finally ( after a long time in the digital world) changes the layout and then has to "try" and fill in the screen.

Resize is panel- hit and miss at best-very slow.

Scrolling-Horrible ( I don't even try if I have an interlinear panel open, or much of anything linked)

Thats just three examples, but ones I have seen people speak of here for a long, long time.

Feature parity to the Windows platform means absolutely nothing to me, could care less.

This program is fat, out of shape, wheezing and cannot lug itself uphill without risk of a heart attack. More features are not what is needed until the program can carry itself around without falling apart-imho.

I really do wish I could turn off all the extra guide stuff that is of absolutely no interest to me. I turn it off, but as soon as I change anything in a guide, they are all back on and just hammer the program, slows down badly- it's horrible in my opinion.

I have no use for all that extra stuff running. If I want that info, let me ask for it, don't presume to know whats best for me to have working in the background all the time.

The Internet does not preload all the information in the world and start loading it into my browser , by the same token, I don't want Logos searching for sermons , places, words, hymns, people, media etc.

I create my own passage guides and thats great, but then the drop down tools are all over the place, text on top of tet and, as soon as there is an update- there a mess.

There is such a thing as "too much" and it becomes distracting and causes the program to suffer under the strain. IMHO

I think it would be nice is one could just click boxes in preferences to turn "on or off" those features which would make for a nice basic set-up and foundation for personalized passage guides.

I don't know about Logos 5. All I could possible predict for the future would be based on past performance. Like some here, based on the knowledge I have, my prediction would not be positive.

It's a real shame too, again, in my opinion, Logos has the best selection of library resources, they just don't do good software. I do hope it gets better.

Wes Saad

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/395664#Comment_395664

I really do wish I could turn off all the extra guide stuff that is of absolutely no interest to me. I turn it off, but as soon as I change anything in a guide, they are all back on and just hammer the program, slows down badly- it's horrible in my opinion.

How are you making use of guides and such? I've got a few custom guides and they work fine for me. I never use the built-in guides.

Fr. Charles R. Matheny

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/395665#Comment_395665

Yep, that's what I do as well, they just don't stay stable is all and the program has a hard time changing between them. Well, thats not completely fair. They will work fine for a while, then they don't. Updates to either the program or resources seems to give the guides a bit of a hic-up. smile.

Right now, in all my personal guides, if i want to modify them, it's a cat and mouse game because the dialog for editing is superimposed on top of other things. It's like looking at something after having your eyes worked on-smile.

One just learns to be an "overcomer" when working with Logos at times-smile. Hey, little humor never hurt anyone-smile.

tom

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/395418#Comment_395418

many of the issues with Logos 4 initially were often due to people adjusting to the new interface or lamenting missing features.

True when it comes to missing features, but I will say that when L4 came out people (like me) were complaining about the performance and other bugs. While L4 has improved, it is still a bad program. I do not have any other program that I use I end up getting the message that the program has stopped responding when I simply click on a menu item, and I have to wait several seconds for the menu item to display. No other program has the typing delays that L4 has, and I have several other programs that uses WPF. Therefore, L4's performance is not completely the fault of WPF - the design/program of L4 also has its hands in why it has such bad performance.

What Logos did prior to L4 was to not have much of a Mac version. There was a Mac version but it was little more than a basic reader and it took years to get that much. L4 has at least given Mac users a powerful Bible study platform. It remains the best option for me on the Mac, but I certainly hope to see solid improvements.

I was talking about the way Logos does it designing and developing - not the products they had in production. L4 is a larger and more complex program, and because of this it needs to be designed and developed as a large complex program; not as a hobby program. Now that their customer base is larger, every small bug is seen by more people. Now, more people are complaining on how buggy their program is; thus more people who do not use L4 are told not to use L4 because of the number of bugs. I for one stopped talking on my seminary campus about L4, and I shared with people who asked me about it my frustrations with L4. I personally have stopped several people from buying the program just by showing L4 to them.

If Logos placed more time into design and development stages, people would not be complaining how buggy L4 is.

Because L5 is being built upon L4, I do not expect anything to change soon.

Butters

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/395671#Comment_395671

Yep, that's what I do as well, they just don't stay stable is all and the program has a hard time changing between them. Well, thats not completely fair. They will work fine for a while, then they don't. Updates to either the program or resources seems to give the guides a bit of a hic-up. smile.

Right now, in all my personal guides, if i want to modify them, it's a cat and mouse game because the dialog for editing is superimposed on top of other things. It's like looking at something after having your eyes worked on-smile.

One just learns to be an "overcomer" when working with Logos at times-smile. Hey, little humor never hurt anyone-smile.

Fr. Matheny, what Mac do u use? Which version of OSx?

Fr. Charles R. Matheny

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/395722#Comment_395722

Macbook Pro, Mountain Lion.

Butters

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/395729#Comment_395729

Macbook Pro, Mountain Lion.

How old is your mac? I had a 2009/10 mac - I put Mountain Lion on it and it became absolutely useless.

Fr. Charles R. Matheny

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/395737#Comment_395737

I'm in same group. I did a clean install, have no issues with any programs. the Logos issues I have are pretty common within the Logos experience.

Will hopefully be getting new Macbook this year.

Butters

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/395747#Comment_395747

I'm in same group. I did a clean install, have no issues with any programs. the Logos issues I have are pretty common within the Logos experience.

Will hopefully be getting new Macbook this year.

By "useless" I meant nothing worked well - interminable beach ball for everything I did. Got a new mac and everything works great. Not sure about Logos - I only have a few things running - a bunch of Perseus texts, Middle Liddell and Big Liddell, etc.

Wes Saad

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/395737#Comment_395737

I had a 2009/10 mac - I put Mountain Lion on it and it became absolutely useless.

I have a 2007 Macbook Pro and Mountain Lion works fine on it. There are places where it slows down, but that's simply to be expected for a five year old machine. On the whole, though, I don't have any problems.

JT (alabama24)

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/395737#Comment_395737

I had a 2009/10 mac - I put Mountain Lion on it and it became absolutely useless.

Did you do a fresh install (complete wipe of the HD)? If that computer is still laying around, you should try it.

Butters

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/395790#Comment_395790

I had a 2009/10 mac - I put Mountain Lion on it and it became absolutely useless.

Did you do a fresh install (complete wipe of the HD)? If that computer is still laying around, you should try it.

As it happens, I did that this morning so I could give it to my mother. Works quite well now! LOL.

JT (alabama24)

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/395792#Comment_395792

As it happens, I did that this morning so I could give it to my mother. Works quite well now! LOL.

I would always recommend doing that AFTER you get the new computer. It helps to rationalize the purchase. [:D]

Butters

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/395794#Comment_395794

As it happens, I did that this morning so I could give it to my mother. Works quite well now! LOL.

I would always recommend doing that AFTER you get the new computer. It helps to rationalize the purchase.

LOL! Exactly! That sort of thing is standard procedure around here.

fgh

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/395664#Comment_395664

Quote"I suspect he was thinking of Focus on Code/Performance Optimization which used to be top of the list and had 899 votes when Bob decided it was "Completed". (OK, his argument is actually quite reasonable.) " End Quote

Yes. that was the section I was speaking of.

No, I don't know how his argument can be reasonable when the code is still quite dysfunctional and thus the program is slow-painfully slow.

Did you actually read what he said?:

"We have done a lot of work on performance, and continue to optimize the app on both Windows and the Mac.

I am closing this case to free up votes on more specific feature priorities. (You may also want to create new issues for specific performance bottlenecks.)

This does not mean we are done optimizing or improving the product; simply that after two years at the top of the list we know it’s a priority — that can never be completely done — and will continue to work on it." /my bold/

No, I'm not happy with Logos' performance, but I agree with Bob that after all this time having that item at the top of Uservoice isn't going to make any difference at all. The votes are better spent elsewhere.

Patrick S.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/395794#Comment_395794

As it happens, I did that this morning so I could give it to my mother. Works quite well now! LOL.

I would always recommend doing that AFTER you get the new computer. It helps to rationalize the purchase.

No no, you're wrong. I always tell my wife BEFORE I get the new computer "Honey I'm getting this new machine because you need an upgrade [by getting my old machine]". That way you're getting her onboard before the purchase.

Gosh, I can see the flames coming my way already...

JT (alabama24)

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/395894#Comment_395894

That way you're getting her onboard before the purchase.

Hmm. Perhaps I need a new approach. [:D]

Jack Caviness

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/395894#Comment_395894

No no, you're wrong. I always tell my wife BEFORE I get the new computer "Honey I'm getting this new machine because you need an upgrade [by getting my old machine]". That way you're getting her onboard before the purchase.

Probably will not work if your wife is computer-phobic [:D]