"finding Granville Sharp" is a sort of litmus test for the capabilities of Bible software."
A famous person once said:
"If you've been around Bible software, you know that many folks use
"finding Granville Sharp" as a sort of litmus test for the capabilities
of their Bible software."
And I've felt that to be a pretty accurate statement.
I've used v3 to find these constructions, but now I'd like to use V4 and give it a shot...
Can Rick Brannan possibly chime in and get me started? I've had no luck so far in duplicating your syntax search from the PDF posted on the blog.
Also....since the morph search actually replaces the Graphical Query...is it possible to construct a Granville-sharp search in the morph search in V4?
http://blog.logos.com/mt-cgi/mt-search.cgi?search=granville&IncludeBlogs=1&limit=20
Robert Pavich
For help go to the Wiki: http://wiki.logos.com/Table_of_Contents__
Comments
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Sorry, but I gave Rick some time to chime [:)]
Yea, his search is quite convoluted. But here's my simple Granville Sharp:-
Word 1: ((Part of Speech = article))
Anything — Match 0 to 1 units
Word 2: Louw-Nida Domain = 12: Supernatural Beings and Powers
AND ((Part of Speech = adjective AND Number = singular) OR (Part of Speech =
noun AND Number = singular) OR (Part of Speech = verb AND Mood = participle AND
Number = singular)) — HighlightAnything — Match 0 to 2 units
Connector 1
Word
3: Lexical Form (no marks) = "και"Word 4: ((Part of Speech ≠ article)) — May Repeat 0 to 1
timesWord 5: Part of Speech = Word 2 AND Number = Word 2 AND Case
= Word 2 AND Gender = Word 2 — HighlightIt gets 42 hits in L3 but includes all the quoted passages for God and Saviour, Lord and Saviour --> I haven't done in L4 as yet!
If you saw my BUG report then believe that doing this in a Morph Search is almost impossible because of the equality required between Word 2 and Word 5 (the simplest requirement is that they have the same Case) and because there is no simple, effective expression to exclude the article in Word 4, unlike L3!
Dave
===Windows 11 & Android 13
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Robert Pavich said:
A famous person once said:
"If you've been around Bible software, you know that many folks use
"finding Granville Sharp" as a sort of litmus test for the capabilities
of their Bible software."And I've felt that to be a pretty accurate statement.
I've used v3 to find these constructions, but now I'd like to use V4 and give it a shot...
Can Rick Brannan possibly chime in and get me started? I've had no luck so far in duplicating your syntax search from the PDF posted on the blog.
Also....since the morph search actually replaces the Graphical Query...is it possible to construct a Granville-sharp search in the morph search in V4?
http://blog.logos.com/mt-cgi/mt-search.cgi?search=granville&IncludeBlogs=1&limit=20
I knew this would come back to haunt me. [:D] If you think I'm famous, you really need to get out more.
The queries I had for v3 should be able to be used as patterns for v4 queries for OpenText.org. I've been meaning to look into Granville Sharp and the Cascadia Syntax Graphs, but simply haven't had time or opportunity yet. I don't know that I will until after Thanksgiving. I'm responding to this thread so it shows up in my "Your Discussions" link on the forum page, so I won't forget about it.
If you're really interested, though, I believe Dan Wallace has a complete list in this paper: http://bible.org/article/sharpi-redivivus-i-reexamination-granville-sharp-rule. Also know that he's recently (in the past year) published a version of his thesis on Granville Sharp with Peter Lang, "Granville Sharp's Canon and Its Kin: Semantics and Significance". I'd guess there's a list there too. It could stimulate some thought on the problem.
The basic problem is that Granville Sharp's rule isn't quite exactly how most people sum it up — two substantives that agree in case/number/gender share the first substantive's article. As I recall it is actually singular "personal" substantives (?) that are *not* proper, and that ends up causing some of the complexity. That is, there are lexical restrictions as well as syntactic and grammatical restrictions/patterns to account for.
Rick Brannan
Data Wrangler, Faithlife
My books in print0 -
Dave,
I'll try this.
But isn't there a "must not be present" requirement that could be joined to the article in the second part?
Robert Pavich
For help go to the Wiki: http://wiki.logos.com/Table_of_Contents__
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Rick...
Are you trying to teach me to fish? Instead, just serve me up a plate of "Captain Ricks beer battered fish and hush puppies" thank you....
[:D]
I have read Dan's article and it was very informative.
Most people do misquote the rule, and you're right about the personal aspect...tough to do.
I'll give it a shot....but try not to fill up on turkey and fall asleep...we'll be waiting.... [:O]
Robert Pavich
For help go to the Wiki: http://wiki.logos.com/Table_of_Contents__
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Robert Pavich said:
But isn't there a "must not be present" requirement that could be joined to the article in the second part?
Yes.
the way they implemented Anything in L4 is such that you cannot apply a number of units to restrict its range. So it would be better to start with a Clause Component and make everyhting hang off that!
Clause Component
Word 1: ((Part of Speech = article))
Anything — Match 0 to 1 units
Word 2: Louw-Nida Domain = 12: Supernatural Beings and Powers
AND ((Part of Speech = adjective AND Number = singular) OR (Part of Speech =
noun AND Number = singular) OR (Part of Speech = verb AND Mood = participle AND
Number = singular)) — HighlightAnything — Match 0 to 2 units
Connector 1
Word
3: Lexical Form (no marks) = "και"Word 4: ((Part of Speech ≠ article)) — May Repeat 0 to 1
timesWord 5: Part of Speech = Word 2 AND Number = Word 2 AND Case
= Word 2 AND Gender = Word 2 — HighlightDave
===Windows 11 & Android 13
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Ok dave...trouble shooting time..what did I do wrong...I got 0 results.
Robert Pavich
For help go to the Wiki: http://wiki.logos.com/Table_of_Contents__
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Rick Brannan said:
The queries I had for v3 should be able to be used as patterns for v4 queries for OpenText.org. I've been meaning to look into Granville Sharp and the Cascadia Syntax Graphs, but simply haven't had time or opportunity yet. I don't know that I will until after Thanksgiving.
Rick,
Thanks for your involvement in this one, also. I'll be trying to follow it as I want to become proficient in the original language search capabilities. If you have a chance to engage with us wrt my question in http://community.logos.com/forums/t/4835.aspx I'd appreciate it.
In order to help you get to it, may I encourage you to take a short drive north, say 40 miles (which will become 65 kilometers) because then Thanksgiving will be over and we can get your input [:)]
Honestly, you need the break, so enjoy the holiday, next week!
Chris
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Robert Pavich said:
Ok dave...trouble shooting time..what did I do wrong...
You need to use "Skip Levels" for everything directly connected to the clause (a Word is preceded by at least a Word Group + Head Term).
Dave
===Windows 11 & Android 13
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Robert Pavich said:
dave,
thanks..
Bob,
I found it didn't work very well (if at all!) so i resorted to the more complex method. Anything without limits (eg. 0 to 2 units) is the problem.
I'm finding it harder work than L3, so how are you going?
Dave
===Windows 11 & Android 13
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Dave,
I got it to work BUT..when i used "should not be present" for the second article...it fails..and I don't know why...Robert Pavich
For help go to the Wiki: http://wiki.logos.com/Table_of_Contents__
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Dave,
On the latest Beta; your search worked...even with the "must not be present" checked for the second article...
I haven't checked the accuracy yet...I was just happy to get results that seem correct at first glance... [:O]
Robert Pavich
For help go to the Wiki: http://wiki.logos.com/Table_of_Contents__
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OK, I'll boot into Wwindows 7 and look at the beta!
Dave
===Windows 11 & Android 13
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Dave Hooton said:
OK, I'll boot into Wwindows 7 and look at the beta!
I can't even get the same results as you, with the same query!
I get 81 results and many important ones are missing!
ro 15:6, 2cor 1.3, 2 cor 8.19, 2 cor 11.31, eph 1.3, 1 thess 3.11.
I haven' time to analyse it further, but something is amiss.
Dave
===Windows 11 & Android 13
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Dave Hooton said:
I can't even get the same results as you, with the same query!
My laptop is annointed. [8-)]
Robert Pavich
For help go to the Wiki: http://wiki.logos.com/Table_of_Contents__
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Robert Pavich said:Dave Hooton said:
I can't even get the same results as you, with the same query!
My laptop is annointed.
I'm going to post something in PC Beta, anointed one!
Dave
===Windows 11 & Android 13
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Do you have to be an MVP to join this discussion? :-)
I have also played around with this a bit and haven't quite figured it out so far. Once someone figures out, a video tutorial and/or a step by step guide would be great. So, far I haven't seen much in the way tutorials videos on the Morph & Syntax features (I get why, most people probably don't use this anyway) in L4. Any guides would be awesome as I'd like to become more proficient with these features.
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Josh,
Ok...first off...what are YOU doing posting here....a MERE MORTAL..... [:D] Sheesh...you don't even have any fancy letters by your name....
Well...I understand your situation....I'm really at that point also....just getting my feet wet.'
If you go to the wiki page....you'll see some syntax searching help that Dave Hooton put up and also if you go to the Logos blog...there are some entries (you have to search for them) and they apply to V3 but the knowledge is transferrable to V4 basically.
My advice?
Just find a relatively simple passage; and try and duplicate it....then if you have no success...post it here and we can talk.
Also, it helps a lot to read the glossary for the cascadia and Open text resources...it helps to get familiar with their particular "logic" and terms.
give it a shot and come back and I'm sure that just through repetition, you'll get it.
Robert Pavich
For help go to the Wiki: http://wiki.logos.com/Table_of_Contents__
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Josh Wilson said:
Do you have to be an MVP to join this discussion? :-)
I have also played around with this a bit and haven't quite figured it out so far. Once someone figures out, a video tutorial and/or a step by step guide would be great. So, far I haven't seen much in the way tutorials videos on the Morph & Syntax features (I get why, most people probably don't use this anyway) in L4. Any guides would be awesome as I'd like to become more proficient with these features.
First read: http://wiki.logos.com/A_Strategy_for_Syntax_Search
Also these threads on syntax searching should help
http://community.logos.com/forums/t/6312.aspx
http://community.logos.com/forums/t/8109.aspx
Prov. 15:23
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I took a run at this, and I got 36 results, including all the ones Dave mentioned were missing in his except 2 Cor 8.19.
I am just learning from all this and trying to follow along, I have no idea how close to correct this is or with beta 7, but I thought it might spur some interest in the example!
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Dom,
it did spur me on to fire this search up again...I copied yours, and got 35 hits! (one less than you...hmmmm)
On your "anything" what is the repitition limit? 0 to 1 time?
Anything else that's not apparent from your picture that I need to know about?
Robert Pavich
For help go to the Wiki: http://wiki.logos.com/Table_of_Contents__
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My first anything is 0-1 times, second anything is 0-2 times. I thought I read that.
I don't think I have anything that doesn't show...but ask me if you suspect something and I'll check it.
One question for you - in version three, is "Must be an immediate child of parent" under Search Parameters NOT CHECKED the same as Matching Skips levels CHECKED? Although the solid/dash lines seem to indicate if one is checked the other should be checked. Which is it?
Thanks!
PS - going to bed - I'll check up on this tomorrow! I am working through the Granville paper, learning lots!
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Dom,
Yes...you are correct; skipping levels is the same as "not being an immediate child of parent"
Dashed lines = not an immediate child of parent.
PS: if you want a copy of Granville sharps little booklet....let me know....it's very interesting reading.
Robert Pavich
For help go to the Wiki: http://wiki.logos.com/Table_of_Contents__
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Robert Pavich said:
PS: if you want a copy of Granville sharps little booklet....let me know....it's very interesting reading.
Or just search Google Books.
A related interesting read: Granville Sharp's Canon and Its Kin: Semantics and Significance (Studies in Biblical Greek) by Dan Wallace.
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Mike Aubrey said:
Or just search Google Books.
A related interesting read: Granville Sharp's Canon and Its Kin: Semantics and Significance (Studies in Biblical Greek) by Dan Wallace.
THANK YOU!
THANK YOU!
THANK YOU!
THANK YOU!
THANK YOU!
THANK YOU!
THANK YOU!
Robert Pavich
For help go to the Wiki: http://wiki.logos.com/Table_of_Contents__
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PS:
Here is the link to the free google books GS booklet
Robert Pavich
For help go to the Wiki: http://wiki.logos.com/Table_of_Contents__
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OK I completed the first query from the Logos White Paper, page 11, located at
http://www.logos.com/media/blog/PDF/Granville%20Sharp%20Rule.pdf
According to the paper it returns 119 results, which is what I got running the query in Logos 3 (available at this blog site to just load in and run):
http://blog.logos.com/archives/2006/10/greek_syntax_searching_for_gra_1.html
However, in L4 beta 7 I get 120 hits, the difference is L4 finds 1 Tim 6:15. I included that in the first screen shot below, is this a false positive, bug in SAGNT, or a mistake in my query? This could be an update to SAGNT too, now? I don't have enough knowledge of Greek to know. I am almost positive this is not capturing a correct verse.
I also include here two screen shots of the query, it's the first screen followed by Or followed by the second screen shot. Hopefully that helps others play around with this.
I plan to now do the second query in that white paper, which should return 62 results according to the white paper (but it returns 63 in L3).
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One minor change to the above query, the Word 4 lemma "kai" should have matching skips levels checked. It does not change the number of results, 120.
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dom,
I recreated your latest search and get no hits [:(]
Robert Pavich
For help go to the Wiki: http://wiki.logos.com/Table_of_Contents__
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I got 84 hits...I'll recheck...
Robert Pavich
For help go to the Wiki: http://wiki.logos.com/Table_of_Contents__
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If you have trouble try loading the Logos 3 scripts and trying it in there, and then you can see how the query is constructed more carefully.
I don't know why 1 Tim 6:15 comes up, unless an original language expert chimes in I am assuming that's a false positive that has crept in, although to my educated eye it seems to be a correct match. I was hoping to be able to compare versions but the Logos 4 one is in logos4 format, dated 2009, and ver 3 one is from 2006. I guess there could be a minor difference in the OpenText SAGNT.
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I did the Granville Sharp participles search from page 14 of the Logos white paper
http://www.logos.com/media/blog/PDF/Granville%20Sharp%20Rule.pdf
and I got 63 hits; the paper says 62 hits.
So in total there are 183 hits between the two searches for the 82 true hits Granville Sharp says.
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Dominick Sela said:
I don't know why 1 Tim 6:15 comes up, unless an original language expert chimes in I am assuming that's a false positive that has crept in, although to my educated eye it seems to be a correct match.
1 Tim. 6:15 does fit the pattern of Granville Sharp's first rule. I'm not sure what list you are going by, but it should include this verse.
EDIT
From Logos' paper on Granville Sharp, notice this comment on p. 12:
Of the verses Wallace lists, this syntax search does not locate 1Ti 6.15. This is due to the OpenText.org SAGNT marking of one noun as vocative and the other as nominative, preventing agreement matching on case. This case difference will be resolved in a future version of the OpenText.org SAGNT.
πάντα εἰς δόξαν θεοῦ ποιεῖτε
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I do remember reading that now and I forgot about it. Thanks Gary!
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