Document Management Suggestion (Please?)

I am very glad that Logos has taken a step forward in Document management in L5. I do have a couple of suggestions which I hope are given good consideration. Some of this has been mentioned before, but I added a couple of things and thought I would create a mock up to illustrate.

First, The left hand side should be primarily for organizing the documents by type. Why make such a valuable space for document creation? You create a document once… you have to find, organize, and open it over and over. I thought of several methods to create new documents, and it seemed most natural to have a new document button in the same location. In my mock up below, the user has clicked "notes." The file type has been highlighted and his/her notes are shown to the right. If the user wanted to create a new note, a simple click on the "plus" icon would create a new note.

Note: I can't think of one good reason to have all the file types visible in the list at the same time (i.e. the jumbled mess we have now). If there is a felt need to maintain that "ability," an all documents line could be added to the left menu.

Tags: Another user tonight brought up the idea of tagging note documents. I think this could be a valuable tool in the organizational flow. I would see these as "document tags" rather than "resource tags." The advantage to this system is that you could group all of your sermon series note files together and keep them separate from your devotional, Bible Study, Book Note files, etc. Clicking on the "Tag" column would group them together like is done in the library now.

Date: It may be helpful to users to find notes based on the date they were created and/or the date modified.

Find more posts tagged with

Comments

Dave Hooton

Note: I can't think of one good reason to have all the file types visible in the list at the same time (i.e. the jumbled mess we have now).

Before you create a new document it is useful to easily see the existing ones by clicking on the LHS. However, the RHS summary by all Types is also useful.

Mark Barnes

First, The left hand side should be primarily for organizing the documents by type. Why make such a valuable space for document creation? You create a document once… you have to find, organize, and open it over and over. I thought of several methods to create new documents, and it seemed most natural to have a new document button in the same location. In my mock up below, the user has clicked "notes." The file type has been highlighted and his/her notes are shown to the right. If the user wanted to create a new note, a simple click on the "plus" icon would create a new note.

I 100% agree with this. Intuitively I expect the left hand menu to show the types of documents, not to add a document (just like the standard right-click menu does). Personally, though, I'd add the 'New' button into the main window, above the document list.

Fred Chapman

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/400919#Comment_400919

I remember something like this was suggested back in the early days of L4. L5 is an improvement, but for some reason they won't go all the way with it. I would rather see a folder / sub-folder system, but this would be great step forward. I have never understood idea behind the original design of the file menu.

JT (alabama24)

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/400919#Comment_400919

Personally, though, I'd add the 'New' button into the main window, above the document list.

Would you want the "new" button just to the left of the "find" box? Would clicking on the "new" button open a drop down menu to choose which document type to create?

Keep Smiling 4 Jesus :)

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/400947#Comment_400947

Using Logos 5 Alpha 4 on OS X 10.8.2, wish for option to resize Documents drop-down (similar to Library).

Keep Smiling [:)]

JT (alabama24)

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/401008#Comment_401008

Any thoughts Bradley? [;)]

Bob Pritchett

Clicking on "Type" on the right groups the documents by type. Using the left side as a type filter puts the same behavior in two places, and break the pattern of how a grid works by taking one particular column out of the grid and treating it special. This would make it inconsistent with the analysis grids, library browser, and other UI through the operating system.

Moreover, burying the new document creation under yet another button pop-up or fly-out menu would add clicks and mouse-navigation-complexity to making a new document.

I do understand how the confusion happens, and how it can look like the left side is a navigator for the right. We're going to look into ways to separate them more. But I'm not yet sold on the idea that we want to make "new" a multi-step process, or treat type as so distinct from the other columns.

I get the point about created and modified dates, and I feel like we already discussed it internally. I believe the problem is that we're only storing modified, and neglected in this case to keep the created, but I'm not sure and will check into it again.

Mark Barnes

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/401135#Comment_401135

. Using the left side as a type filter puts the same behavior in two places, and break the pattern of how a grid works by taking one particular column out of the grid and treating it special.

So remove 'Type' from the table. Inconsistency solved.

This would make it inconsistent with the analysis grids, library browser, and other UI through the operating system.

But make it consistent with the right-click menu.

Moreover, burying the new document creation under yet another button pop-up or fly-out menu would add clicks and mouse-navigation-complexity to making a new document.

It would add one click to a new document, but it removes a click for opening a document by type. Which are users likely to do more often?

Jack Caviness

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/400937#Comment_400937

I would rather see a folder / sub-folder system

[Y]

Also agree that Justin's suggestion would be a great leap forward. Present new document list does not make good sense, frequently results in unwanted documents.

JT (alabama24)

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/401135#Comment_401135

Bob - with great respect, I can't believe you don't understand where we are coming from.

Why would you make creating new document types so much easier than FINDING document types? Which action is performed more often?
I have yet to hear one good reason to have all the document file types mixed together. Can you enlighten me? [:)]

But I'm not yet sold on the idea that we want to make "new" a multi-step process, or treat type as so distinct from the other columns.

Let me try to explain as best as I can. When Safeway closes one grocery store and opens a new one, I expect that the organization may be different than before. I understand that there are a multitude of organizational schemes. However, I expect that the dairy will be grouped with the dairy; the produce with produce; frozen items with frozen; canned goods with other canned goods. In any organizational scheme there may be several ways to group things but not all are created equal. Some are more important than others. I contend that the type field is much more important and useful and deserves a more important place in the organizational structure in Logos 5.

Clicking on "Type" on the right groups the documents by type.

The way that it is now, with everything jumbled together, is like going to the grocery store and looking for a fresh, hot rotisserie chicken in the freezer section. It just does not make any sense. It is true that you can sort the documents by type, but you are still left with a cluttered mess.

When I am looking for a document, I may not remember the name or the date, but I ALWAYS remember what type of file I am looking for. By placing the type on the left hand side, you will allow users to eliminate the clutter. When the user is looking for a particular note file, eliminating other file types makes the other fields (date*, modified, name, tag*) more useful.

Jack Caviness

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/401135#Comment_401135

Clicking on "Type" on the right groups the documents by type. U

You apparently ate looking at this as a programmer, but those of us who are commenting here are looking at it as users. Do we want an app pleasing to programmers of pleasing to users?

Jacob Hantla

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/401135#Comment_401135

Clicking on "Type" on the right groups the documents by type. Using the left side as a type filter puts the same behavior in two places, and break the pattern of how a grid works by taking one particular column out of the grid and treating it special. This would make it inconsistent with the analysis grids, library browser, and other UI through the operating system.

Moreover, burying the new document creation under yet another button pop-up or fly-out menu would add clicks and mouse-navigation-complexity to making a new document.

I do understand how the confusion happens, and how it can look like the left side is a navigator for the right. We're going to look into ways to separate them more. But I'm not yet sold on the idea that we want to make "new" a multi-step process, or treat type as so distinct from the other columns.

I get the point about created and modified dates, and I feel like we already discussed it internally. I believe the problem is that we're only storing modified, and neglected in this case to keep the created, but I'm not sure and will check into it again.

Bob, why not have the left hand side sort by document types the way that is being suggested, and then at the very top of the right-hand-side there can be a +Create New button.

This lets creating new and managing old both be super convenient.

I have to agree that the current document management system needs revamping, and this is an excellent place and way to do so.

Jacob Hantla

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/401198#Comment_401198

This is how I think it should work. I think that no matter what is done, this thread has hit on a major point of needed improvement in usability

Bob Pritchett

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/401185#Comment_401185

I confess, I don't think about documents by type and am surprised that you do. I would hate to have my Windows document folders show me documents by type; when I go looking for a document, I think of it by date (most often -- it was either something I was just working on, or something I know was old) or by name. I hate folders and sub-folders, and use search as my primary finding mechanism for everything.

I wish my email had never been set up in folders, and prefer a "sorted by time with now at the top" view, and a find box that works. (This is why X1, or even the Windows search function, is my favorite way of finding things. I can never remember which of 12 network shares and a million sub-folders something is in.)

(And, just to make the pre-defense that this isn't "just my crazy idea", I'll point you to Everything is Miscellaneous, a book on why organization schemes all ultimately fail -- which is also why Google search is essentially "flat", contrary to Yahoo's early directory of the Internet and other attempts to organize it in folders, and why Wikipedia's only structure is a single-level hierarchy in which each entry gets a head word.)

If we were to use this idea of selecting by type, we'd have some weird situations. A new user opening the Documents menu would see a big blank window, with a New button that had to be clicked to create a new document. (Assuming we hide left-side types for which no document exists.) If we show left-side type navigation for all types, even if no document exists, then we have a weird situation where a user is looking for "the document on adoption" and has to click through Notes, Clippings, Passage List, etc. hunting it down. Would there be an "All" at the top left?

I'm not shutting down this discussion -- I want the right answer -- but I am a bit concerned that MVP's are power users who don't actually reflect the majority of our users' needs. Many of you apparently have enough documents that you need lots of organizing tools, but most users have just a few documents of any type. (I'll hunt down those stats and verify; we do have actual counts, though.) Would you feel the same way if you had two note files and less than six other documents?

MJ. Smith

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/401262#Comment_401262

MVP's are power users who don't actually reflect the majority of our users' needs.

You mean to say that your user base isn't obsessed with canons, lectionaries and notes? How strange[:P]

Seriously, I prefer the simple structure provided in L5 as I suspect you are right about your user base. I put passage references in titles as my primary organizing principle which leads me to another possible solution. At the moment, to get to a list of our relevant documents we have to run a search which returns far more information than we want. What if we had a mini-search (think cited by, lookup, info) that returned a list of documents based on the passage but not all references to the passage as a standard search.

Todd Phillips

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/401262#Comment_401262

Many of you apparently have enough documents that you need lots of organizing tools, but most users have just a few documents of any type. (I'll hunt down those stats and verify; we do have actual counts, though.) Would you feel the same way if you had two note files and less than six other documents?

As long as the tools are limited, then the usage will be limited to power users. I think this applies to the thread on tagging as well.

I often look for files by type in my Windows Explorer: I know it's a Word document, but I can't remember the name. Sorting by date does nothing because My Documents is full of documents of different types. I'm the same way in the Logos file window. If I want to find a notes file, I'd rather just see the notes files by themselves, instead of scrolling up and down looking for it .

Would there be an "All" at the top left?

Yes

MJ. Smith

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/401276#Comment_401276

If I want to find a notes file, I'd rather just see the notes files by themselves, instead of scrolling up and down looking for it .

I agree and find the new layout works for this - sorted by type

JT (alabama24)

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/401262#Comment_401262

If we were to use this idea of selecting by type, we'd have some weird situations. A new user opening the Documents menu would see a big blank window, with a New button that had to be clicked to create a new document. (Assuming we hide left-side types for which no document exists.)

Why would you hide them? Personally, I still like my "plus" idea. I think (almost) anyone who opened that would instinctively know to click the "plus" sign for a new document.

If we show left-side type navigation for all types, even if no document exists, then we have a weird situation where a user is looking for "the document on adoption" and has to click through Notes, Clippings, Passage List, etc. hunting it down. Would there be an "All" at the top left?

You COULD put an "all" button and perhaps you should. But why? If Logos has done a good enough job of explaining what notes, clippings, passage lists, etc. mean, look like, and do, it will be obvious. If you are really worried about this situation, make the "empty" types greyed out.

I'm not shutting down this discussion -- I want the right answer -- but I am a bit concerned that MVP's are power users who don't actually reflect the majority of our users' needs. Many of you apparently have enough documents that you need lots of organizing tools, but most users have just a few documents of any type

I see this system as simplifying things for the end user, whether they are a "novice" or "power user." I consider myself somewhere in-between.

I do understand how the confusion happens, and how it can look like the left side is a navigator for the right.

I think most people will see it that way. It is a common and shared experience to sort that way (i.e. mail clients).

Would you feel the same way if you had two note files and less than six other documents?

Probably not. But this isn't the "online bible" or some other free program.

I create a resource specific note file for EVERY book I highlight in. I spent 10+ hours breaking out my highlight notes when I was beta testing the early 2.x builds. I have other reasons for organizing this way, but the simple truth is that large highlighting files create huge problems for the mobile apps. Not only do I encourage users to do this (if they are so inclined), but Morris Proctor has done the same too in one of his emails… (I wonder if he got the idea from me [:D]). [Two of the other reasons I create resource specific note files: To make finding a note easier and to make sharing my note files more meaningful when we are able to share them with other users. I am much more likely to share or receive a note document with highlights from just one resource.]

just to make the pre-defense that this isn't "just my crazy idea", I'll point you to Everything is Miscellaneous, a book on why organization schemes all ultimately fail

I have not read their book, but to some extent they must defeat their own premise when they put this on their website: [:P]

[quote]NOTE: To navigate this site, click on the tabs at the top of the page...

JT (alabama24)

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/401279#Comment_401279

If I want to find a notes file, I'd rather just see the notes files by themselves, instead of scrolling up and down looking for it .

I agree and find the new layout works for this - sorted by type

The problem with this solution MJ is that once you have put file type on the left hand side and sorted as such, you have now eliminated the other fields as possible search criterion! What do you do when there are 300 note files? I can understand that you have a file naming scheme that works for you, but most users will have a more complex system. When you put the ability to sort file types on the left, you leave additional sorting capabilities on the right. Additionally, I think there is much to be said for eliminating the clutter.

Rich DeRuiter

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/401262#Comment_401262

...I am a bit concerned that MVP's are power users who don't actually reflect the majority of our users' needs. Many of you apparently have enough documents that you need lots of organizing tools, but most users have just a few documents of any type. (I'll hunt down those stats and verify; we do have actual counts, though.) Would you feel the same way if you had two note files and less than six other documents?

FYI, I have 3 Clipping files (left-overs, I don't use clippings anymore), 5 Handouts (don't use those either), 113 Note files, 33 Passage lists, and 7 Visual filters.

As the Documents interface works now, I'm pleased. I can sort by Name, Type or Date. That's really all I need. The panel on the left under "New" might be a bit confusing, at first, but in Windows Explorer, the sorting function is still in the right panel (though the left is usually the navigation panel). It took about 2 minutes for me (without forum help) to figure out how this worked, and that the left panel wasn't a navigation panel. Maybe I wanted to do this because I'm a "power user," maybe I figured it out on my own because I'm a "power user." Either way, someone with only two note files won't be overwhelmed nor disappointed.

But I wasn't one of those who was clamoring for a better document interface.

JT (alabama24)

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/401285#Comment_401285

It took about 2 minutes for me (without forum help) to figure out how this worked, and that the left panel wasn't a navigation panel. Maybe I wanted to do this because I'm a "power user," maybe I figured it out on my own because I'm a "power user."

I think its the later. [:P]

Jacob Hantla

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/401262#Comment_401262

Would you feel the same way if you had two note files and less than six other documents?

I do like to see the most recent of all document types too. That should be a default, but when i am trying to find that note file that I can't remember the name of or that sentence diagram, I end up searching for "Note" or "Sentence Diagram". Since I've had Logos 4 I'd say that having the most recent file at the top works for me about 50% of the time.

If I only had 8 documents total I would not think that the plan that we have proposed is necessary, neither would I think that it is harmful.

The software needs to be useful and easy for the first time user (I don't think this would harm that), but also tailored to work with and not fight against the user becoming a power user. As more document types are being made and as users build a lifetime of files which can become pretty numerous once they get into sentence diagramming and passage lists, a better system for managing them is needed.

I feel what you feel Bob. I love gmail cause I don't need to organize. I like Google cause I can just search, but I hate a cluttered documents folder on my computer and in my Logos. I think there is a benefit to a good combination of "just search" and hierarchy. Don't put all your eggs in either basket and let the users pick whichever fits their brain or their workflow. I think this idea works for both...so long as the first view that we see when we click on documents is a "all document type" view.

Jacob Hantla

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/401285#Comment_401285

[I'm pleased. I can sort by Name, Type or Date. That's really all I need.

That's a whole lot of scrolling past your 113 note files to see your 7 visual filters.

MJ. Smith

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/401284#Comment_401284

The question is one of the need for a multi-level search. One has to balance ease for the majority of users vs. the ability of the remainder to develop their own naming conventions that work. As for Bob's view of organization, I'm still looking for the unified theory of chaos and complexity[;)]

Dave Hooton

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/401262#Comment_401262

I am a bit concerned that MVP's are power users who don't actually reflect the majority of our users' needs. Many of you apparently have enough documents that you need lots of organizing tools, but most users have just a few documents of any type. (I'll hunt down those stats and verify; we do have actual counts, though.) Would you feel the same way if you had two note files and less than six other documents?

The most of one type I have is 33, then 7! But you are arguing that you like "searching" as a power user and want the others to do the same, especially if the stats can confirm that no one else needs to search because they don't have enough documents... But will it affect anybody if there is an extra item in the context menu to facilitate a quick search?

Documents Guides

New Start

Syntax Search My Passage Guide

New Open

New ... tab Open ... tab

New ... window Open ... window

Show existing ... Show existing ...

Delete

Graham Criddle

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/401349#Comment_401349

One of the things which strikes me an non-intuitive about the current implementation is the "sub-search" function (I'm not sure if that is a valid name!)

As you can see I have 209 notes files shown in descending date order. As others have expressed I would like to be able to sort this filtered group by name as well.

However, if I type a filter string into the "Open" box, the Notes type collapses and I am shown how many of each type of document exists which matches that filter string

Because I was "in" the notes document type when I entered the string I would have expected that type to stay open and to produce the results which I get when opening it again

This view still shows the number of matches against other document types - which is helpful - but I am surprised the open type gets closed.

MJ. Smith

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/401356#Comment_401356

I agree it needs to stay open.

Mark Barnes

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/401262#Comment_401262

Bob,

It's important to remember that for some of us our expectation on seeing the menu was that the items on the left acted as a filter for the documents on the right - probably because we've been conditioned for that sort of behaviour from the right-click menu, and from the file menu in Office 2010. The issue of whether there should be document management is a separate issue.

In fact, I'll agree with you about the document management. I can sort by "type", and the sort order sticks (that's the killer feature), and that's good enough for me. But that doesn't stop the me being surprised when I click on the left-hand part of the menu and a new document opens up.

Rich DeRuiter

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/401371#Comment_401371

But that doesn't stop the me being surprised when I click on the left-hand part of the menu and a new document opens up.

As I said above, I was confused at first too. But if you look at the Dialog box, it's clear that over the left column is "New" and over the right column is "Open." This parallels what we have in the new Guides dialog box, BTW.

While we do have expectations about how things work in Windows, and this seems to break the mold a bit, it really doesn't take much to "read the instructions," so to speak, at the top of the columns and understand what's happening. After we 'get it' it's not hard to remember.

On the other hand, I do expect that there will be a flurry of confusion/complaints in the first few days of the release of L5, followed by straggling confusion/complaints as others buy the software. I don't know about you, but I don't have any other software that has a document UI that looks or works like this one. This includes gmail (which doesn't have a sort by type, but then there's only one type there (email), and Google Drive (formerly Google Docs), which has types but doesn't allow sorting by them.

But on the whole, I do like the simplicity of this way of working with all of these types of documents. While we may loose some power sorting this way, I'm with Bob on this, that for the vast majority of users, this kind of simplicity is best. And a simple "Look at the top of the UI and you'll see how it works" is enough to get us working with what we have here. Further, what we have here is a big improvement over what we had in L4. So once we users get used to it, we'll be fine . . . I think . . . probably.

JT (alabama24)

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/401424#Comment_401424

I can sort by "type", and the sort order sticks (that's the killer feature), and that's good enough for me.

Further, what we have here is a big improvement over what we had in L4.

I am a bit confused. How is it any different? Is there something implemented on PC but not Mac (yet)? The following screen shot is the current state of the document menu on Mac. You can sort by name, date, or type… but ONLY one. This is the same horrible system setup as the library menu where you can only filter with one field. Are all of you saying that you can sort by two fields?

Graham Criddle

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/401433#Comment_401433

Hi Alabama

As in my post above at http://community.logos.com/forums/p/55416/401356.aspx#401356 on Windows we can only sort by one type but we can then filter by name (using the Open box) as it looks as though you can do on Mac as well.

It looks as though after having filtered by type - for example - the results are then sorted by date with the most recent first.

Graham

Graham Criddle

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/401436#Comment_401436

One other thing.

Has anyone played with the "Share Document" facility at the bottom left of the screen as shown in Alabama's post?

I have 4.6a beta booted at the moment so can't check!

Graham

Mark Barnes

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/401437#Comment_401437

Has anyone played with the "Share Document" facility at the bottom left of the screen as shown in Alabama's post?

It takes you to https://documents.logos.com/ but nothing shows up there yet. Although the action menu is greyed out, the source code suggests the following will eventually be possible:

Publish - Allow groups to get a copy of these documents.
Withdraw - Remove these documents from groups.
Get Copies - Get smart copies of these documents.
Collaborate - Select a group to own & edit the documents with.
End Collaborations - Will disconnect all collaborators!
Connect - Connect to these collaborations.
Disconnect - Disconnect from these collaborations.
Duplicate - Make private copies of these documents.
Delete - Remove selections from your documents.
Undelete - Undelete selections and return them to your documents.

JT (alabama24)

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/401436#Comment_401436

on Windows we can only sort by one type but we can then filter by name (using the Open box)

That's not good enough and I stand by my guns. [;)]

Graham Criddle

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/401439#Comment_401439

That's not good enough

I tend to agree with you!

Graham Criddle

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/401438#Comment_401438

Has anyone played with the "Share Document" facility at the bottom left of the screen as shown in Alabama's post?

It takes you to https://documents.logos.com/ but nothing shows up there yet. Although the action menu is greyed out, the source code suggests the following will eventually be possible:

Publish - Allow groups to get a copy of these documents.

Withdraw - Remove these documents from groups.

Get Copies - Get smart copies of these documents.

Collaborate - Select a group to own & edit the documents with.

End Collaborations - Will disconnect all collaborators!

Connect - Connect to these collaborations.

Disconnect - Disconnect from these collaborations.

Duplicate - Make private copies of these documents.

Delete - Remove selections from your documents.

Undelete - Undelete selections and return them to your documents.

Hi Mark

Thanks for checking and looking into this - looks very interesting!

Keep Smiling 4 Jesus :)

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/401433#Comment_401433

The following screen shot is the current state of the document menu on Mac. You can sort by name, date, or type… but ONLY one. This is the same horrible system setup as the library menu where you can only filter with one field. Are all of you saying that you can sort by two fields?

Also, the Documents pop-up is a fixed size so cannot enlarge it. In contrast, Library pop-up is resizable.

Potential for "Share documents" is awesome, currently can share reading plans and prayer lists. Dreaming about sharing visual filter(s), which would need sharing of Highlighting palette(s). Sharing Syntax Search(s) and Sentence Diagrams would also be helpful.

Noticed "Undelete documents" http://documents.logos.com/?deleted=True currently has Reading Plans. Wonder about plans for other document types ?

Keep Smiling [:)]

Rosie Perera

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/401371#Comment_401371

It's important to remember that for some of us our expectation on seeing the menu was that the items on the left acted as a filter for the documents on the right - probably because we've been conditioned for that sort of behaviour from the right-click menu, and from the file menu in Office 2010. The issue of whether there should be document management is a separate issue.

In fact, I'll agree with you about the document management. I can sort by "type", and the sort order sticks (that's the killer feature), and that's good enough for me. But that doesn't stop the me being surprised when I click on the left-hand part of the menu and a new document opens up.

As I said above, I was confused at first too. But if you look at the Dialog box, it's clear that over the left column is "New" and over the right column is "Open."

I've pretty much stayed out of this forum because I haven't downloaded the Logos 5 Beta, but I was curious about this thread since I've been one of the ones most strongly wishing for better document management in the menu system. When I heard the fuss about how confusing this was, I just took it on trust that it was confusing, but then I saw the screenshot posted by Graham, and I agree with Richard. It's pretty obvious what the left column is for, and I agree with Bob that it's good to make it a single click to create a new files because it's newbie users who will be creating files of various types for the first time, whereas those of us looking through our large collections of files will have a bit more experience with the product.

I disagree with Bob, however, that most users are going to think like him and think of these all as Files rather than as the different file types. Most users won't have a clue that Handouts, Passage Lists, Reading Plans, Sentence Diagrams, etc., are all implemented as Files (indeed probably using object inheritance). That is a rather geeky concept actually. I'll bet you dollars to donuts they think of them as the different types of things that they are. If they're at all familiar with Windows (or Mac, I presume) they will like that they can, not when they made them. Yes, all these things are found under the File menu, but most users don't know why. They've just been trained to find them there. Otherwise there is nothing much about all these different kinds of things that would make users think they would all be merely subtypes of the same type of thing.

I think the surprise about how this works comes from an expectation that Logos 5 would be fixing the problems with the file menu by going back to the way Logos 3 worked, where the left column did work as a filter for the documents on the right. But really, there are probably more people now used to the way Logos 4 does it than the way Logos 3 did it.

Graham Criddle

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/401566#Comment_401566

Hi Rosie

I disagree with Bob, however, that most users are going to think like him and think of these all as Files rather than as the different file types

Reading this made me reflect on the fact that the menu is now referred to as Documents as opposed to Files.

I assume this was deliberate and - while a small change - wonder whether this will help.

There has been a lot of talk in the forums - particularly in the mobile arena - about documents and which document types are / are not supported in the Sync v2 framework. This has resulted in an understanding (potentially subliminal) that the concept of documents is important.

I know those discussions are limited to those who engage in the forums and probably to the subset of those who play in the mobile space but it could be relevant.

Graham

JT (alabama24)

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/401566#Comment_401566

It's pretty obvious what the left column is for

I think the surprise about how this works comes from an expectation that Logos 5 would be fixing the problems with the file menu by going back to the way Logos 3 worked, where the left column did work as a filter for the documents on the right. But really, there are probably more people now used to the way Logos 4 does it than the way Logos 3 did it.

I never used L3. I guess I can join the chorus with DMB and sing the praises of "the worlds best Bible software program… Libronix!" [:P]

Seriously though… I decided to let my wife see a screen shot of the document window as exists in L5 PC. She has never used ANY Logos software. I asked her to do certain tasks (i.e. find a reading plan; create a new note file, etc.) and she did them exactly as I would expect her to… The fact that L3 worked the way I am suggesting just bolsters my case.

By the way… my main point ISN'T that the left side is confusing (although it is), nor is it that the left side MUST be for filtering document types (although it should). My MAIN point is that Logos needs to assist user in finding their documents and the first step should be to eliminate other file types from view. The only change I would make from my mock up is to include an "all" document type on the left hand side.

I disagree with Bob, however, that most users are going to think like him and think of these all as Files rather than as the different file types. Most users won't have a clue that Handouts, Passage Lists, Reading Plans, Sentence Diagrams, etc., are all implemented as Files (indeed probably using object inheritance). That is a rather geeky concept actually. I'll bet you dollars to donuts they think of them as the different types of things that they are.

I hear the angels singing! [:D]

Bohuslav Wojnar

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/401616#Comment_401616

Just to add my 2 cents experience with the new document management: When I first installed Logos 5 and opened document section, I clicked on notes on the left to see notes but to my surprise I created a new note. That is what I think is intuitive. I agree with Alabama that with addition of "All" on top of the list and making it default would be the best solution. It is not a big issue to me however and I can live with the current setup also.

JT (alabama24)

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/401616#Comment_401616

RDRR - Very funny Logos developers. Way to get my hopes up and DASH THEM TO PIECES. [:D] Notice the newly implemented document finder for MAC. Apparently the developers think the left side should be to OPEN documents too. [:P] (In case you are wondering, clicking the icons on the left just create new documents.).

Jack Caviness

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/403469#Comment_403469

RDRR - Very funny Logos developers. Way to get my hopes up and DASH THEM TO PIECES. Notice the newly implemented document finder for MAC. Apparently the developers think the left side should be to OPEN documents too. (In case you are wondering, clicking the icons on the left just create new documents.).

Bug also noted here BUG: Alpha 5 Documents List

JT (alabama24)

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/403469#Comment_403469

Not to beat a dead horse (I'm holding out hope [:)]), it sounded from a couple of the PC users that the menu would maintain the order of one field after sorting by another. Either this is not true, or it hasn't been implemented on Mac yet. Notice that the documents are filtered by document type. Just before I clicked to sort by document type, I had sorted by alphabetical order. It appears that it is being sorted by date instead.

Jacob Hantla

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/403480#Comment_403480

The more I use this the more I wish that it would organize from the left bar.

I actually like that I can create a new document in one click, but I think finding the document that I'm looking to open (which is by far my more common use for this menu) is a more laborious process. I have noticed that most of the time (unless it is a document that appears in the top 5 of my list based on frequency) I am either clicking on the type menu (extra click and not as natural as organizing via the icon) or searching for the document name.

It just seems to me that the icons could serve a dual purpose:

1. Create a new document (this eliminates the extra click of my previous recommendation of putting "new document" at the top of the right hand column)
2. On hover, sort the right column displaying first the documents of that type.

JT (alabama24)

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/404277#Comment_404277

The more I use this the more I wish that it would organize from the left bar.

I'm glad to hear it. [:)]

I think your solution, however, would be a little more confusing than my "plus to create" menu.

Keep Smiling 4 Jesus :)

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/404282#Comment_404282

Follow-up to thread about Logos 5 => http://community.logos.com/forums/p/55576/404116.aspx#404116 that has a screen shot of Favorites with sub-folders.

Personally have a number of folders in Favorites to "organize" my Documents. My primary search in Logos 4 Files is File Type (e.g. syntax, reading, notes) so could filter file list by their type. Often looking for a similar document for a forum question, which was asked some time ago.

At work, my inbox has automatic routing into a number of folders, yet the primary inbox has lots of email; am extensively using mail search.

Personally use folders to organize digital files since have experienced trying to find a file in one folder with thousands of files; similar to hunting for a needle in a haystack. Unix has a number of commands for searching, albeit folders with thousands of similar name files and similar content can be a bit daunting to find the right one(s).

A related topic is library management and collections. In the Library, currently do not have a way to see what collection(s) a Resource is in.

Keep Smiling [:)]

Martin Potter

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/401471#Comment_401471

Also, the Documents pop-up is a fixed size so cannot enlarge it. In contrast, Library pop-up is resizable.

The Documents and Guides pop-ups are resizable from the bottom right corner of the pop-up like Windows.

JT (alabama24)

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/404416#Comment_404416

The Documents and Guides pop-ups are resizable from the bottom right corner of the pop-up like Windows.

It is now, but it wasn't at the time. [;)]

Keep Smiling 4 Jesus :)

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/404314#Comment_404314

Noticed thread about Logos 5 "must haves" has a new poster with Number 1 desire in Logos 5 being Document Management => http://community.logos.com/forums/p/55576/405677.aspx#405677

Keep Smiling [:)]