Manuscripts, Roots and Lemmas?

Hey Ryan!

A Lemma would be the actual word itself as found in the text. So for example, Logous (word in the nominative plural) is called the manuscript. It's what the Bible has. The Lemma for Logous is Logoc (the Lexical form of the word). The root is Log - it's the basic part of the word that gives it it's core meaning. There are other words that use Log as a root such as the verb logo (I speak - active). Think about the word button, for example. In a sentence you might say "I love biological studies." The manuscript would be "biological" because that's what the text says. The Lemma would be "biology." That what the word is before any endings to make it take its role in the sentence. The root would be "bio." Now biology doesn't exactly mean the same thing as bio does it? One means life while another means the study of life. Think of all the other words with "bio" in them. For example, "biochemical" and "biography." These words do not mean the same thing! But they share the root "bio" because they all have to do with "life" in one form another. That's the idea of a root.

So the root is even beyond the Lemma or Lexicon form of the word. It's why that specific word has it's meaning.

So:

Manuscript - what appears in the Greek Bible including all it's forms.

Lemma - what the word looks like before it's inflected to have it's place in the sentence.

Root - the core part of the word that gives it meaning. The root typically has lots of other words that add pre-fixes or suffixes to gain additional shades or meaning or uses in the system.

Does that jive?

Alexander said:

Hey Ryan!

A Lemma would be the actual word itself as found in the text. So for example, Logous (word in the nominative plural) is called the manuscript. It's what the Bible has. The Lemma for Logous is Logoc (the Lexical form of the word). The root is Log - it's the basic part of the word that gives it it's core meaning. There are other words that use Log as a root such as the verb logo (I speak - active). Think about the word button, for example. In a sentence you might say "I love biological studies." The manuscript would be "biological" because that's what the text says. The Lemma would be "biology." That what the word is before any endings to make it take its role in the sentence. The root would be "bio." Now biology doesn't exactly mean the same thing as bio does it? One means life while another means the study of life. Think of all the other words with "bio" in them. For example, "biochemical" and "biography." These words do not mean the same thing! But they share the root "bio" because they all have to do with "life" in one form another. That's the idea of a root.

So the root is even beyond the Lemma or Lexicon form of the word. It's why that specific word has it's meaning.

So:

Manuscript - what appears in the Greek Bible including all it's forms.

Lemma - what the word looks like before it's inflected to have it's place in the sentence.

Root - the core part of the word that gives it meaning. The root typically has lots of other words that add pre-fixes or suffixes to gain additional shades or meaning or uses in the system.

Does that jive?

Wow Alexander thank you ,you have opened my eyes,

Donnie Hale said:

Dominick Sela said:

I was taught a lemma is the word you would likely find in the dictionary. The variations on that word are what is in manuscript.

A just to clarify, can a word be based on more than one root? I thought it could but I may be wrong.

Rick answered the question about one word coming from multiple roots.

But to clarify one thing you said. A lemma itself can be found in the manuscript, in addition to the inflected forms of the lemma. For a verb, the present active indicative first person singular form is the lemma (generally speaking); and that form itself can be used in the text. For a noun, it's the nominative singular form that is the lemma. And so on for other parts of speech which can be inflected.

Donnie

 

Donnie is right on here. The "Lemma" could be the "Manuscript." The "Lemma" is also called the "Lexicon or Lexical" form of the word because it is what you'd find in a Lexicon (Greek dictionary). The idea behind searching for a manuscript, lemma, or root comes down to what you are hoping to find in the text.

Do you want to see the exact same use for the Greek/Hebrew word in the Bible but don't know how to do morphological searches? You could search for the "Manuscript" to find the word in (usually) the same usage.

Do you want to find the word in all of its usages across the text? You will probably want to search for the "Lemma" form of the word. That will produce a report with the word in all of its uses (i.e., the subject, the direct object, the possessive, etc. or in the present, past, future, perfect, ect.)

Finally, do you want to find out how a family of words are used that share a common thread (root)? Then you'll want to do a root search. The result will be all the words in all their usages that share the root element. Just be careful when you do this and accidentally read to much into relationships that are not really there! Otherwise you might think Jesus was throwing dynamite in Matthew 13:58!

I'm even a more of beginner than most. So let me ask this.

In John 1:1 the word "was "show's nv and then under it is eimi.

So if I wan't to learn to read from most greek new testaments, can I assume the word to learn and pronounce is the manuscript word nv and not eimi. At least in the case of John 1:1  ??

BTW, if i go to the NA27 tab the word is nv but when you put your mouse over it the eimi shows and that's the word that the program will speak for you. But is that really the correct pronunciation for nv??

Michael Hemberger said:

I'm even a more of beginner than most. So let me ask this.

In John 1:1 the word "was "show's nv and then under it is eimi.

So if I wan't to learn to read from most greek new testaments, can I assume the word to learn and pronounce is the manuscript word nv and not eimi. At least in the case of John 1:1  ??

BTW, if i go to the NA27 tab the word is nv but when you put your mouse over it the eimi shows and that's the word that the program will speak for you. But is that really the correct pronunciation for nv??

Similar to English, some verbs change form depending upon how it is used in a sentence. Eimi is the verb "to be" (particularly, the first person singular present = "I am"). Nv is a past form of the 3rd person singular = "it was". You would also find different forms of "you will be" and "they were" etc. but they all come from the same word (eimi).

in essence your question amounts to "Should I learn to pronounce 'was' or should I learn to pronounce 'am'. The answer is "both"

Thanks for the response. Ok , so learn both but I assume you mean that the eimi for example will be used somewhere else where appropriate. Again thanks!

i found this post. thanks it was helpful. but for your info the root of logous is not log but lego or is Greek it is λεγω

You presented a great answer brother!! I have an added question, although I know this is an older post. When I'm reading for translation purposes do I focus on the manuscript version of the word or, its lemma? And why is the manuscript even given (and its transliteration) if we are reading the languages lemma? Hope that made sense. Thank you

Hello Marlon,

In basic terms, "lemma" is how the word is listed in a dictionary.

You look at the actual, grammatically inflected words in the manuscript when you translate. The lemmas are there to help you look up dictionary glosses.

Example:

Marlon told [past aorist / perfective] Andy [accusative] to read [infinitve] the books [articular, plural].

(lemmas: Marlon / tell / Andy / read / book)

Thank you so much that was awesome help!

So I'm finishing my summer intensive Hebrew course. From what I was understanding (and everything was learned at a fast pace) The root is the lexical form, also known as the stem. Am I correct? I did not hear too much of the word "stem" on this forum. So:

Root = Stem

Root/Stem also = Lexical Form, Which is the Basic Form (When you are searching for the word in a Lexical/Dictionary. And,

Lemma = Inflected Forms (Or, as the original root changes/inflects).

Hope I wasn't off (some of these terms can be used interchangeably which can throw us off).

Alexander,

I know this response is about eight years late, but I greatly appreciate your explanation in this area! It was very helpful!

Yes - I am new to Logos at 70 years old. (Logos 10 Gold)

Lemma vs Manuscript:
Can I trust a Greek lemma defination to always be correct for all of the associated manuscript versions?
-OR-
Can there be different manuscript definatons associated with the same Greek Lemma?

Thank you very much for your help!

Keith

Thank you very much for responding. I understand and appreciate your answer.

With a 'mouse click' on a word in the bible, it is easy (from a pop up window) to do a 'Bible Word Study' on the lemma. However, the only way I have found to do further study and find all occurances of the greek manuscript word, is to do a copy and paste the manuscript word into 'Search'.

Am I missing an easier/better way to do a find and study of the manuscript words?

Happy Thanksgiving & Thanks

Keith  

Great question. It is very possible my understanding is incorrect.

I believe a lemma can be translated into different english words, in the same bible and in other translations.
(Not always different forms of 'hat'.)  E.g. The LEB Mark 4.39 Lemma for 'Be silent" is φιμόω.
But this Lemma (φιμόω) is translated muzzle in 1 TI 5:18. Although it is similar, it is not the same.
This lemma is also referenced in 7 verses.
The manuscript word is πεφίμωσο. It is only used once in Mark 4:39.
There are other manuscript greek words that are used mutiple times in various scriptures. I would feel more confident that these (not lemmas) should carry the exact same english meaning.

For this reason, I was thinking that the highest assurance of Greek words sharing the exact english defination would be between the manuscript Greek word. not the lemma.

Thank you very much for any way you can help me understand.

Keith

Keith Cavanaugh said:

For this reason, I was thinking that the highest assurance of Greek words sharing the exact english defination would be between the manuscript Greek word. not the lemma.

I don't know of any review, that tries to track 'form' or 'inflection' (manuscript) to 'sense' (translation) in terms of how well it exactly matches across usage.  Although, when you're reading an english translation (as an example), you quickly identify errors in form, and less often, word choice (lemma).  In fact, you can often guess a person's 1st language from errors in form (there's no one-to-one language correspondence).  You see that frequently in import product manuals.

Regarding your question, an easier way to at least 'watch' manuscript or form, not really. And you're right, 'form' has the key information; not lemma (an argument can go off the rails, caused by an error in form).  Of course, verbal 'stress' is even worse. That's why 'discourse' information is also good.

The closest you'll get in Logos, is in an analytical lexicon (Logos has many) like Friberg's, where sense is followed by forms and grammar (not the reverse).  But that's not too helpful to you.  Search is your friend; I do it routinely (manuscript form).  I rarely use the BWS; sense is too often misleading or a guess.

MJ & DMB You have been incredably helpful in guiding me towards the correct approach and perspective regarding working with Greek translations. God bless you both for sharing you knowledge with me!! Have a wonderful day.

Keith

Literally the best answer to help anyone with no knowledge whatsoever  of this.