Logos 5 is out? They never finished Logos 4 yet!

I just paid for a minimal crossgrade to Logos 4 a few weeks ago. Before I even get it to work now I find out it is obsolete. I wish I could go back in time 20+ years ago when I bought my first Logos 2.0 software. Back then they promised the library software would always be free. I would definitely tell myself not to do it. Over the years I purchased many titles which are now included "free" in various packaged libraries. And they want to force me to repay for them again in order to upgrade my library. I refuse to do it and go with the "minimal" charge ... and find I have been ripped off on that too. I have been fooled too many times by this money sucking scam.

I just bought a new computer and I am having serious thoughts of not even installing this buggy mess of overpriced half-completed vaporware.

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Kevin Becker

The minimal crossgrades (both for 4 and 5) are about adding data sets and resources to Logos. They are not required to read your books but adding functionality that requires new data. In the first quarter of 2013 Logos has said they will release L5 for free download. You only have to pay if you want the new resources or data sets that Logos has developed.

While I certainly see Logos offering free books from time to time as promotions you pay for base packages as a whole. What books are you concerned about having purchased before? If you upgrade to one of the new base package revisions Logos takes previous purchases into account into account and applies a discount.

Is there anything we can to to help you get to use your software? We try to be a helpful bunch around here. Perhaps we can make some recommendations that will make Logos work better on your machine.

Here's a related post from Bob, the CEO, it might be helpful http://community.logos.com/forums/t/58259.aspx

Keep Smiling 4 Jesus :)

Over the years I purchased many titles which are now included "free" in various packaged libraries. And they want to force me to repay for them again in order to upgrade my library.

Welcome [:D]

If your existing Logos resource licenses are associated with your Logos.com account, then the Logos 5 dynamic upgrade pricing includes credit for every resource that is included in various packages, which reduces upgrade cost. Depending on library content, upgrade cost can be substantially reduced. For example, see reply => http://community.logos.com/forums/p/58237/422590.aspx#422590

The Logos upgrade page now includes a resource count of what would be new to your library; hover on a new resource title for pop-up.

One way to check resource license association is login to http://biblia.com so can read resources in your library online.

Another way to check is login to http://www.logos.com then search for resources in your library. The Logos web site now has grey buttons for resources already licensed to you. Personally searched for Nelson:

Nelson's Topical Bible Index and Nelson's Complete Book of Bible Maps and Charts Revised have grey "Add to Cart" indicators. In contrast, unlicensed resources have two buttons: Add to Cart and Quick Buy.

Keep Smiling [:)]

Wes Saad

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/428275#Comment_428275

The minimal crossgrades (both for 4 and 5) are about adding data sets and resources to Logos. They are not required to read your books but adding functionality that requires new data.

Therein lies the rub. It's a bit disingenuous to say the software is free, but then to say not all the features of the software will work unless you pay more money. In that sense, the free version is more like the old shareware concept: something free to use, yet crippled unless you pay money for the "real" version.

I understand the need to pay for datasets, but running the engine without the data is like running a shareware version. You aren't really getting the software for free.

David Thomas

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/428284#Comment_428284

The minimal crossgrades (both for 4 and 5) are about adding data sets and resources to Logos. They are not required to read your books but adding functionality that requires new data.

Therein lies the rub. It's a bit disingenuous to say the software is free, but then to say not all the features of the software will work unless you pay more money. In that sense, the free version is more like the old shareware concept: something free to use, yet crippled unless you pay money for the "real" version.

I understand the need to pay for datasets, but running the engine without the data is like running a shareware version. You aren't really getting the software for free.

But you are getting for free (if you wait for the free engine) all the software necessary to read your existing resources.

John

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/428275#Comment_428275

I am getting tired of repaying over and over again for "new datasets". When i upgraded to Libronix 3 it was the same story. I was told that it contained revolutionary new search technology that would lay a foundation for advances years to come. Now it seems I am expected to pay for revolutionary new search technology every few months.

Your statement that they "take previous purchases into account" is a lie. If those purchases were not directly from the logos website, you may as well have not purchased them. I spent quite a bit of time on the phone recently with sales reps who finally told me that it simply was not possible to give me any discount when upgrading to a higher "scholars library" which contained hundreds of books (mostly nelson titles) which I had already purchased. Charging a customer twice for the same item might make money for the company but it isnt doing anything to keep customers.

If you really wanted to help, you would get Libronix 3 working correctly on Windows 7 instead of forcing a completely new, incomplete and buggy package on customers who have no choice. I paid the "minimal crossgrade" money twice, but now have two packages that dont run correctly on Windows 7. And I will probably be told I need to purchase another minimal upgrade to Logos 5. The incomplete and buggy Logos 4 will never be fixed for those who purchased it. This is in effect charging twice for the same product, as Logos 4 was never a complete version, but an incomplete beta test.

I'm finished with this. I have wasted thousands of dollars here but have finally had it throwing good money after bad.

Robert Wazlavek

James 5:9 - "Do not complain against one another, brothers, so that you may not be judged; behold, the Judge is standing at the door."

I'm just gonna post this verse here and recommend that if you have something to say, you should watch your words carefully. Also:

Proverbs 18:2 - "A fool takes no pleasure in understanding, but only in expressing his opinion."

Again, if you have something to say, be aware that you may not understand what's going on fully and should therefore seek to understand before making accusations and calling Logos a "money sucking scam."

Logos Bible Software is by no means perfect, but it has blessed and benefitted many. Therefore, though some blame can be put on Logos for a number of things, surely some of the blame can also be attributed to you.

(And just for reference, though I used a quote from the OP, this obviously applies to anyone who has disrespectful words to say against the endeavors of our brothers and sisters.)

David Thomas

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/428290#Comment_428290

I paid the "minimal crossgrade" money twice, but now have two packages that dont run correctly on Windows 7. And I will probably be told I need to purchase another minimal upgrade to Logos 5. The incomplete and buggy Logos 4 will never be fixed for those who purchased it.

I'm finished with this. I have wasted thousands of dollars here but have finally had it throwing good money after bad.

I found 4.6a worked VERY well on Win 7. The upgrade to v.5 is just a nice bonus

Shawn Drewett

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/428290#Comment_428290

.
If those purchases were not directly from the logos website, you may as well have not purchased them.

The incomplete and buggy Logos 4 will never be fixed for those who purchased it.

I feel your pain. Boy do I FEEEL your pain! I guess we don't love technology as much as some others. If you love something enough, no price is too high.

David Bailey

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/428290#Comment_428290

Before I even get it to work now I find out it is obsolete

If you really wanted to help, you would get Libronix 3 working correctly on Windows 7 instead of forcing a completely new, incomplete and buggy package on customers who have no choice.

John,

Sorry to hear that you are having problems with Libronix 3 and Logos 4. If there are
features of Logos 4.6a that are not working for you, you could ask for
help on the L4 forum or contact Logos technical support.

Back then they promised the library software would always be free.

Logos will release a free Logos 5 basic engine sometime early next year. FYI, Logos will also continue support for Logos 4.x - until, I guess, software advances to the point where it is no longer good business sense to support it.

And they want to force me to repay for them again in order to upgrade my library.

Logos is not charging you for resources you already own. Look over the FAQ for Logos.

I'm finished with this. I have wasted thousands of dollars here but have finally had it throwing good money after bad.

Contact Logos directly. Perhaps they can address your concerns; they may even refund your recent purchase of the L4 crossgrade. I do pray that things will work out for you.

David

John

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/428298#Comment_428298

I found 4.6a worked VERY well on Win 7. The upgrade to v.5 is just a nice bonus

I can still remember a time when software was expected to work when first released. Alpha testing, Beta testing, then customer trials. Then finally, it was good enough to be sold to customers.

It may have worked well for you Dave, but it still lacks features that were working fine in version 3. I was happy with version 3 and if they had fixed it to run under Windows 7 I wouldnt be as upset as I am today.

Keep Smiling 4 Jesus :)

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/428290#Comment_428290

My apologies: screen shot shows two resources, which were purchased from a third party, then sync done using Libronix 3.0g on Windows 7 with Internet Explorer 9 patch installed => http://www.logos.com/support/windows/L3/IE9

As a user, am Thankful for Logos.com showing resource licenses associated with my Logos.com account, regardless of where they were purchased.

Thankful can use Logos 5.0a and Libronix 3.0g at the same time on a 64 bit Windows 7 laptop (using same Logos.com account).

Also watching for upcoming Logos 4.6b Beta 1 release.

Keep Smiling [:)]

John

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/428305#Comment_428305

Logos is not charging you for resources you already own. Look over the FAQ for Logos.

Actually David, they DID try to charge me for resources I already own when I attempted to upgrade my package. That is a fact. Any resources that you purchased from retail outlets in the past in Logos or Libronix format are not credited in any way on the Logos website. Only Logos "packages" qualify for upgrade pricing. Your discount is calculated based on your previous package level.

And talking directly on the phone does not change the situation. I was told that they simply could not afford to give me credit for the $600+ titles I already purchased because "they are already so heavily discounted in the package". In other words, they are now giving away free what I paid hundreds of dollars for, so I get no discount.

It is obvious that many have fallen for this scam. This company is not only ripping off its customers by selling software that isnt complete or ready for market, but also does not honor the legal licenses you paid for via third party publishers and retailers who they once did business with.

Contact Logos directly. Perhaps they can address your concerns;

Already did that. In fact one of their salespeople has called me a few times. Not happy that I only did a minimal crossgrade, yet unwilling to give me credit for titles I already purchased.

John

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/428323#Comment_428323

Thankful can use Logos 5.0a and Libronix 3.0g at the same time on a 64 bit Windows 7 laptop (using same Logos.com account).

Also watching for upcoming Logos 4.6b Beta 1 release.

I would prefer to have one well written and fully functional program, as to three buggy and incomplete ones. Quality rather than Quantity, so to speak.

Please explain why there would still be a 4.6b Beta release after Logos 5 has begin to be sold? This is exactly my point here.

Rene Atchley

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/428290#Comment_428290

I must say that in many ways I agree with John's sentiments. Too much money way too often for way too little from a company that seems to do more advertising then product development. Flashy interfaces using the "latest" researched gadgets and gimmicks that is second only to the Space Shuttle in complexity of use. Required training experiences from manuals to several day retreats just to learn how to crank this beast to work. While the company seems solid for the immediate future and has good support I really don't know what to do with my rented license. I would give it away but even that would cost me at least $20. Finished with it...only if I could.

Keep Smiling 4 Jesus :)

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/428316#Comment_428316

It may have worked well for you Dave, but it still lacks features that were working fine in version 3. I was happy with version 3 and if they had fixed it to run under Windows 7 I wouldnt be as upset as I am today.

With Internet Explorer 9 patch, Libronix 3.0g runs fine under Windows 7 => http://www.logos.com/support/windows/L3/IE9

Wonder if Logos 3/Libronix thread => What is more useful in Libronix 3.0g ? (especially compared to Logos 4.5a) is missing anything ? Note: thread includes several replies by Bob Pritchett (CEO)

Logos 4 and 5 now have Vocabulary and Word Lists. Logos 5 has a Topic Guide. Logos 4.6a and 5.0 have Personal Book additions for Sermon File tagging. Faithlife Study Bible has videos (included in several Logos 5 packages).

I would prefer to have one well written and fully functional program, as to three buggy and incomplete ones. Quality rather than Quantity, so to speak.

Personally use Logos 5.0a while have Logos 4.6a and Libronix 3.0g configured for forum replies. Thankful for Logos 5 full screen support on OS X.

Please explain why there would still be a 4.6b Beta release after Logos 5 has begin to be sold? This is exactly my point here.

Microsoft does not support .NET Framework 4.5 on Windows XP so Logos users on Windows XP cannot use Logos 5.

Keep Smiling [:)]

DominicM

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/428290#Comment_428290

Now it seems I am expected to pay for revolutionary new search technology every few months.

Libronix was released 2004/5
Logos 4 was releases 2009

36 month between "New" Major Releases is actually very slow, several competitors release new Major version each year

Upgrading is a choice and works out (Minimum crossgrade) approx $5 per month over lifecycle.. which is peanuts IMO

If you really wanted to help, you would get Libronix 3 working correctly on Windows 7 instead of forcing a completely new, incomplete and buggy package on customers who have no choice.

John sounds like you are fairly new as a user, some of us rememeber that Microsoft broke Libronix every time they patched Internet explorer, it was a right royal pain... Microsoft would break Libronix with each new release, and up until IE9 we got fixes, we were then advised not to upgrade to IE9 but serioulsy, its not Logos problem if Microsoft break program by changing key components

This is why v4 was required as it was not tied to IE, it was rewritten from ground up - we asked for it and Logos delivered

v5 is mainly released due to user demand, the databases are a bonus, some of our Original language users needed the better Original langage functionality provided in .net 4.5, and they were asked to hold on (for 2 years v4 is .net 4 because of desire to support XP users) and v5 will now free them to persue their studies

v4 has been promised further updates, and given Logos past history, these will be forthcoming

David Bailey

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/428324#Comment_428324

Your discount is calculated based on your previous package level.

Not according to Logos:

Your upgrade price is based on your current library, so you only pay for new features and books.

(from http://www.logos.com/upgrade)

I was told that they simply could not afford to give me credit for the $600+ titles I already purchased because "they are already so heavily discounted in the package". In other words, they are now giving away free what I paid hundreds of dollars for, so I get no discount.

When I upgraded my base package in L4, my sales rep credited the resources I had purchased individually. I don't know what happened in your situation - it seems odd.

It is obvious that many have fallen for this scam. This company is not only ripping off its customers by selling software that isnt complete or ready for market, but also does not honor the legal licenses you paid for via third party publishers and retailers who they once did business with.

You should contact Bob Pritchett at bob@logos.com and address your concerns with him. You can also use E-bay and other online sites (but not here in the forums) to sell your Logos software to someone who can use it for ministry, personal study, etc. As someone else had mentioned, there is a one-time fee to transfer your licenses to another account.

David

Joseph Turner

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/428350#Comment_428350

I also feel John's pain in many respects, but what I do before an upgrade is look at what I am getting new. I figure up out of those resources/features what I would use, and see what they would cost me if I bought them separately. Then it is just a cost/benefit analysis. I don't think that there is any way to prove if we are actually getting "fair" credit for our previous purchases, so I choose to look at it from the angle I described.

I agree completely that L4 should not have been released as an incomplete program, but I was eventually happy with it. I am very happy with L5, but of course it benefits from L4's R&D.

Jon

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/428324#Comment_428324

And talking directly on the phone does not change the situation. I was told that they simply could not afford to give me credit for the $600+ titles I already purchased because "they are already so heavily discounted in the package". In other words, they are now giving away free what I paid hundreds of dollars for, so I get no discount.

There seems to be a lot of confusion about how prior purchases are credited because the books are offered at such massive discounts in the packages. Take a hypothetical example: Logos takes a bundle of books that if bought separately would cost $10,000 and offer it on sale for $1000. A customer comes along who has already bought half of the books in the package individually totalling $5,000. The discount is of course $500 because that's the value of those books within the package bundle. Should Logos discount the bundle by $5,000 and pay the customer $4,000 to buy the bundle? [:^)]

Jonathan Pitts

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/428447#Comment_428447

There seems to be a lot of confusion about how prior purchases are credited because the books are offered at such massive discounts in the packages. Take a hypothetical example: Logos takes a bundle of books that if bought separately would cost $10,000 and offer it on sale for $1000. A customer comes along who has already bought half of the books in the package individually totalling $5,000. The discount is of course $500 because that's the value of those books within the package bundle. Should Logos discount the bundle by $5,000 and pay the customer $4,000 to buy the bundle?

Very well put.

Jim Erwin

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/428290#Comment_428290

Hello John,

I generally do not reply to the forums. I only read them for my benefit. However, I think that it would help if you had some perspective. In general, especially as pastors and teachers, we have to pay for what we need to "rightly divide the Word." I have spent money to get physical books (which are of little use to me now in the digital age.) I had spent time downloading and upgrading e-Sword, BibleWorks, and WordSearch. Each time, they had been updated and changed in ways that frustrated me.

I bought a couple of Nelson titles as well as a Charles Stanley CD back when I used Windows 95 (wow times have changed.) I stopped using Windows four years ago. I bought a Mac and have never looked back. But I have had to go through Snow Leopard, Lion, and Mountain Lion OS. Those upgrades I paid for. I have had to upgrade e-Sword (which I paid for the new resources). I had to upgrade WordSearch (which I upgraded since 5.0).

I switched to Logos because I realized that I did needed the value of the search capabilities. I also liked the fact that it was cross-platform. In many ways, it is the best Bible program for real serious study. So I bought the Scholar edition in March 2012 (on an academic discount). I have bought some pre-pubs and other books on community pricing. I have also been diligent in searching Vyrso for free books everyday.

Did I like that Logos 5 just came out? No. I was content with Logos 4. But I bought the Starter package and then the Minimal Crossgrade because of the resources and more importantly the search capabilities and data sets. Do I like that my "status" has been downgraded? I don't care about that. I understand that I am buying the engine and the capabilities. Frankly, when you get this far into ministry, you have so many resources that you don't worry about how many you need. (I have been in ministry for 14 years).

Technology will change and you will have to pay for the changes. That's just how it us. I am thankful that I can still work on a Mac. I hate the new Windows 8 because it is so confusing. My kids are ok with any new technology. I am not old, but because technology is changing so quickly, it is hard to adapt.

Logos is a COMPANY which is working to help people study the Bible better. So you have to realize that (1) they intend to make a profit, and because of that (2) they have to make some decisions with which we may not agree. Sometimes, the roll-out is difficult for the consumer (remember Apple's Maps app?)

If you really have a problem with the technology, then go back to preparing with pen and paper, a typewriter (remember those?), and books. Or just simply use the Bible for your preparation (what a novel idea!).

I for one am willing to pay the money to save time...

David Bailey

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/428447#Comment_428447

The discount is of course $500 because that's the value of those books within the package bundle. Should Logos discount the bundle by $5,000 and pay the customer $4,000 to buy the bundle?

Sometimes contacting a sales rep will result in a better final price; other times we end up paying a cost of an upgrade based on a pre-determined algorithm that discounts the cost based on your current library. The L5 upgrade is an example. The final cost is based on what books and dataset(s) you have currently, not on what base package you owned previously. Logos has stated that you don't pay again for books you already have in your library - not sure why for some folks this is hard to understand.

Logos has given away for free many wonderful books. They continue to do so; they don't have to do it this at all - they choose to for one or more reasons. Logos also has to pay salaries and the utility bills too. So, it is naive to think that we should get new product, such as L5, for free. Logos has promised a free L5 engine sometime early next year and there is no reason to doubt them. Although L4 and L5 are not perfect, I am a happy user of L5. I'm guessing that 99% of people on this earth who serve Christ (full-time or part-time) wished they could use a powerful tool such as L4 or L5. Many pastors wish they could get their hands on Bibles in their own languages! We in the USA take things here for granted everyday. Count our blessings - we have many compared to the less fortunate.

David

Ekkie Tepsupornchai

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/428556#Comment_428556

As someone with over a decade of experience in the field of information technology, it is simply not a sustainable business model to continue supporting old product versions beyond a few years, especially after a newer version has been released.

The fact that Libronix 3 used to have consistent issues with each new IE release, shows the software foundation was too dependent upon specific Windows resources that are unstable by their nature. That by itself, warranted the re-platform effort for version 4.

And as much as I would like to get new software versions for free (or close to it), such practices place unsustainable financial pressures upon that company. At the end of the day, even if we give Logos the benefit of the doubt (which I do) that they have a worthy and God-honoring goal with their software, they still have to be able to support their employees and overall operational costs (which MUST be significant).

So while my mindset is to be able to pay as little as possible for what I get, I also want to do my part to ensure they stay in business.

And for what it's worth, I've been using Logos from the beginning on Windows 7 (both 32-bit and 64-bit) on four or five different laptops / PCs over the years. While installation is not always a snap, the software has always worked for me (just be sure that you're running at least Internet Explorer 8 or higher).

Nathan Parker

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/428581#Comment_428581

First of all, like others said, Logos doesn't make you "pay" for new "versions" of Logos "every few months".

Logos has always released the core engine free of charge with every major Logos release. Maybe not on "day one", but the fact is the engine has always been, and is still currently, free (they will be releasing it after the initial upgrade rush so that a bunch of people don't overtax their servers at once, which is fair).

Additionally, Logos 4 was released back in 2009, and Logos 3 was either 2005 or 2006 (would have to remember). Logos usually released "major upgrades" about every four years, which is far less than software companies like Apple that are moving to a yearly release schedule for iOS and OS X.

Second of all, if you wait for the L5 free engine, you can download the free engine and keep your Logos 4 investment current without paying a penny. It will replace L4 as well, so there's no need to run "three separate" programs. L5 upgrades and builds upon L4. The only additional "program" you might need to run is L3 if there's some legacy features you need. Personally I haven't used L3 in years. Once I got comfy with L4, I ditched L3 as fast as I could and didn't look back. L4 was becoming stable enough and much smarter to use, so I stuck with it.

Thirdly, as other stated, L4 was desperately needed. L3 was heavily tied to IE, and when IE updated, L3 broke. It was painful to endure, and L3 was also a very complex and heavy engine. L4 broke the tie to IE, rebuilt the engine from the ground up to a much more up-to-date piece of technology, and helped Logos move forward. I work for WeatherBug, and we encountered a similar issue to Logos with our desktop app and are taking a similar path. WB6 was tied to and broke with IE updates. WB7 is being built on .NET and will be architecturally similar to Logos, just as a weather app.

Fourth, L4 isn't dead. Some Logos users are still on older Windows/Mac releases that cannot run L5, so Logos will continue to offer select updates for them. They won't get all the new features of the L5 engine, but Logos is being generous to offer them certain needed updates, which is more generous than some software vendors.

Fifth, for those that can upgrade to L5, Logos doesn't need to "finish" L4. L4 was never the "end all" to Logos. L5 builds upon L4, refines it, polishes it, enhances the look and performance, and adds some new features that true are missing from L4. But here's the good news about the engine. It's free. Holding off for the free engine will give you these particular new features without paying a penalty.

So what's the big deal about the new base packages and minimal crossgrade? With L5, just as with every new release of Logos, the Logos team found ways to make their existing base packages better and more feature-filled, and to add new content and resources to them. With L5, Logos also added a ton of new data sets that took an entire team of Bible scholars to labor over the Word to bring us a wealth of Biblical scholarship and Biblical information at our fingertips. Information you will not find in print books or other Bible software. With the new L5 datasets, we're one step closer to not only having our own personal research assistant at our fingertips, but we're also having the equivalent of hiring our own personal team of Bible scholars that combs through the Word and gives us information, all with a single click.

Logos can't simply give away these new resources and new datasets for free. So Logos is offering two great ways to get them. 1. Purchase a "Minimal Crossgrade". You'll get all the new scholarly datasets, just not any of the new base collection resources. 2. Upgrade to a new base collection. You'll get the new datasets plus the new resources. While the base collection upgrades aren't "cheap", there's a wealth of material there you get with each upgrade. Try going out and buying them in print for the same price. And don't forget about Logos' Payment Plans. They really help spread out the costs.

To address your question about your "just paying for the L4 crossgrade", as well as "you feel like your double-paying for books you already own", like others said, your best option is to talk to Bob Pritchett, the company CEO. He might assist you with your recent purchasing of the L4 crossgrade to make it less painful to crossgrade to L5 should you want the new datasets. Or you can wait on the free engine. Either choice.

As for "double paying for books", your best option is to talk to Customer Service first, not sales. I'm beginning to get a feeling some of your Libronix collections might not be properly activated/registered with Logos, which could result in your Logos account as not showing some books you own. You need to have a personal consultation with the Logos Customer Service team, ensure all of your Libronix collections are indeed activated, ensure your Libronix ID/resources are associated with your Logos.com account, then see what your upgrade price would be. I'm believing there might be a disconnect somewhere that could easily be resolved by talking with Customer Service, not just sales.

I hope some of this info helps you out, and I hope you'll still consider upgrading to L5 in some form or fashion, whether it be through a collection, "minimal crossgrade", or even the free engine. L5 is an excellent upgrade to Logos Bible Software, and one that you'll truly love.

John

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/428812#Comment_428812

Thanks for the sales pitch, but i have been hearing about revolutionary Bible search since version 2.0. Im not throwing any more money that direction. Logos as a company has lost my confidence. What we need is a 3rd party reader that can use logos books. I would pay money for that.

Garrett Ho

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/429006#Comment_429006

What we need is a 3rd party reader that can use logos books. I would pay money for that

This must be exaggeration, because you can use Logos software as a reader. Otherwise, you're offering to pay for something that is already free, perhaps because you're upset over a purchase you didn't need to make. You could've downloaded the L4 engine without the crossgrade, if you just wanted to view your books. You could probably still return it, if you want.

Mike Childs

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/428290#Comment_428290

Your statement that they "take previous purchases into account" is a lie. If those purchases were not directly from the logos website, you may as well have not purchased them. I spent quite a bit of time on the phone recently with sales reps who finally told me that it simply was not possible to give me any discount when upgrading to a higher "scholars library" which contained hundreds of books (mostly nelson titles) which I had already purchased. Charging a customer twice for the same item might make money for the company but it isnt doing anything to keep customers.

No, sir. You are mistaken. It does not matter where you bought the resources, Logos has them credited to you in your license, and if they are part of the upgrade package, you get credit.

That is a fact. I have been a customer of Logos for 18 years now, and I have never paid twice for a book, or seen a more ethical company.

Of course, you have every right to decide Logos is not right for you. I wish you well, brother. I respect your opinion, but this is mine.

John

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/429022#Comment_429022

Your statement that they "take previous purchases into account" is a lie. If those purchases were not directly from the logos website, you may as well have not purchased them. I spent quite a bit of time on the phone recently with sales reps who finally told me that it simply was not possible to give me any discount when upgrading to a higher "scholars library" which contained hundreds of books (mostly nelson titles) which I had already purchased. Charging a customer twice for the same item might make money for the company but it isnt doin

No, sir. You are mistaken. It does not matter where you bought the resources, Logos has them credited to you in your license, and if they are part of the upgrade package, you get credit. That is a fact. I have been a customer of Logos for 18 years now, and I have never paid twice for a book, or seen a more ethical company.
Of course, you have very right to decide Logos is not right for you. I wish you well, brother. I respect your opinion, but this is mine.

You and several others on the forum keep repeating the same thing. That does not make it true.

FACT: When discussing upgrading my scholars library with a Logos sales rep, I was told that they could NOT give me credit for hundreds of titles i already owned. I have been a customer just as long, and i have paid for books twice several times, but i refuse to do it again.

I see no point discussing the ethics of a company that is defended as "christian", yet whos main objective is to profit from selling at a retail price theological works it did not author to christians who can ill afford to pay. nothing ethical to discuss.

Bradley Grainger (Logos)

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/429024#Comment_429024

FACT: When discussing upgrading my scholars library with a Logos sales rep, I was told that they could NOT give me credit for hundreds of titles i already owned. I have been a customer just as long, and i have paid for books twice several times, but i refuse to do it again.

If you visit http://www.logos.com/upgrade, you should see an upgrade price to Bronze that is under $370. The regular price of Bronze is $629.95. This indicates to me that you are getting credit for the resources you already own in Scholar's Library. Perhaps the salesperson just misunderstood you? Note that a significant number of titles in Bronze (which is roughly the equivalent of the old Scholar's Libraries) are new, and so the upgrade price is high because it includes all these new resources. Starter will be cheaper (because it contains fewer resources and datasets), but still gets you to Logos 5. Or, as other posters have commented, the Logos 5 engine will be available for free download starting next year.

Bradley Grainger (Logos)

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/428290#Comment_428290

Your statement that they "take previous purchases into account" is a lie. If those purchases were not directly from the logos website, you may as well have not purchased them. I spent quite a bit of time on the phone recently with sales reps who finally told me that it simply was not possible to give me any discount when upgrading to a higher "scholars library" which contained hundreds of books (mostly nelson titles) which I had already purchased. Charging a customer twice for the same item might make money for the company but it isnt doing anything to keep customers.

If you purchase directly from logos.com, then our servers know about your purchase and you will be credited for it. (See my previous post.)

If you purchased items at a Christian bookstore, then our servers may not have associated that purchase with your logos.com account. This would depend on a) your Libronix ID being associated with your logos.com account, and b) running Synchronize Licenses in LDLS3 to upload your licenses to our servers.

A quick test is to visit http://www.logos.com/upgrade, select a package, and check the "New to you" column. If resources are showing up as "New to you", even though you actually own them, it's likely that your accounts aren't linked properly on our servers. Please call our Customer Service department, and they can quickly link your accounts together so that you get credit for all your past purchases--whether at logos.com or not.

MJ. Smith

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/429024#Comment_429024

FACT: When discussing upgrading my scholars library with a Logos sales rep, I was told that they could NOT give me credit for hundreds of titles i already owned. I have been a customer just as long, and i have paid for books twice several times, but i refuse to do it again.

I don't know where the miscommunication happened but what you describe is NOT Logos policy. Call again - I doubt that you'll get the same misinformation a second time.

John

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/429032#Comment_429032

FACT: When discussing upgrading my scholars library with a Logos sales rep, I was told that they could NOT give me credit for hundreds of titles i already owned. I have been a customer just as long, and i have paid for books twice several times, but i refuse to do it again.

If you visit http://www.logos.com/upgrade, you should see an upgrade price to Bronze that is under $370. The regular price of Bronze is $629.95. This indicates to me that you are getting credit for the resources you already own in Scholar's Library. Perhaps the salesperson just misunderstood you? Note that a significant number of titles in Bronze (which is roughly the equivalent of the old Scholar's Libraries) are new, and so the upgrade price is high because it includes all these new resources. Starter will be cheaper (because it contains fewer resources and datasets), but still gets you to Logos 5. Or, as other posters have commented, the Logos 5 engine will be available for free download starting next year.

been there. done that.,discussed,it on the phone several times. what you and others cannot seem to understand is that i already own most of those titles. yet i was going to have to pay for them AGAIN in order to upgrade. you only get credit for logos packages. not retail boxes purchased in the past. the discount you speak of is only from one logos package to another. other titles i purchased which are now in the package were not credited in any way. you dont see any logos people jumping into this thread to make me a great offer do,you? because they cannot and will not. i would upgrade my scholars library package if i did not already own half the new titles in it, ormif i was offered a fair deal without paying twice for the same titles.

John

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/429034#Comment_429034

FACT: When discussing upgrading my scholars library with a Logos sales rep, I was told that they could NOT give me credit for hundreds of titles i already owned. I have been a customer just as long, and i have paid for books twice several times, but i refuse to do it again.

I don't know where the miscommunication happened but what you describe is NOT Logos policy. Call again - I doubt that you'll get the same misinformation a second time.

already called, more than a few times. maybe those on here insisting i am wrong should call. i am not going to keep responding to people who think they know the policy, butnhave not had to deal with it.

David Thomas

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/429039#Comment_429039

y. you dont see any logos people jumping into this thread to make me a great offer do,you? because they cannot and will not. i would upgrade my scholars library package if i did not already own half the new titles in it, ormif i was offered a fair deal without paying twice for the same titles.

Bradley IS a Logos employee who is asking you to call so that they can make sure all your licenses are synchronized so they can do what you are asking

David Thomas

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/429033#Comment_429033

. Please call our Customer Service department, and they can quickly link your accounts together so that you get credit for all your past purchases--whether at logos.com or not.

Notice the blue icon under his user picture which identifies him as an employee

DominicM

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/429039#Comment_429039

not retail boxes purchased in the past.

No one is diputing your ownership AFAIK

As Bradley says:

If you purchased items at a Christian bookstore, then our servers may not have associated that purchase with your logos.com account. This would depend on a) your Libronix ID being associated with your logos.com account, and b) running Synchronize Licenses in LDLS3 to upload your licenses to our servers

This is why he is asking you to ensure your logos3 accounts are synced, and to re contact to ensure all your products have been accounted for

Rene Atchley

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/429047#Comment_429047

It is reasonable to communicate directly with Logos for a more detailed discussion of what is or is not being credited from one upgrade to another. Yet this whole morality discussion misses one of the major issues (at least for me) is the increasing cost for a "free" engine that only works with all the extras built on top of it that are not free. This seems at least deceptive to me and speaks to a larger issue with Logos and it pricing structure especially as the premier publisher of Christian electronic resources who holds a monopoly in the market. Well if they don't want to publish works by seminal Christians such as Tillich that is just too bad..you know get over it. Advertise me to death and charge exorbitant prices for essentially nonfunctional free upgrades well that is just, you know, business.

Andy

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/429059#Comment_429059

Hi Rene,

Out of interest, where have you obtained this information,

Yet this whole morality discussion misses one of the major issues (at least for me) is the increasing cost for a "free" engine that only works with all the extras built on top of it that are not free.

Advertise me to death and charge exorbitant prices for essentially nonfunctional free upgrades well that is just, you know, business.

I presume that you are referring to the free engine (which is not yet released). Have you obtained an advanced copy of the free engine?

The reason I ask is that your statements (above) are at odds with the information released by Logos. Moreover, your statement is at odds with my own personal experience. While Beta testing, my Beta license inadvertently expired (leaving me, in effect, with the free engine) and I discovered that I was, in fact, able to access the functionality available in L4.

What I was unable to access was the new resources and data sets unique to L5 and for which I had not paid (which would have been an unreasonable expectation in any regard).

Rene Atchley

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/429063#Comment_429063

Indeed I could be wrong as usual. The "free engine" without data sets is what?

Andy

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/429065#Comment_429065

The "free engine" without data sets is what?

An engine which provides you with all of the functionality for which you have paid (equating to the functionality available to you in L4). You may find that there is additional functionality, but you will need to await the release of the L5 engine to confirm this.

Indeed I could be wrong as usual.

I fully understand that feeling [:D].

My concern, I guess, is that you have questioned the morality and integrity of Logos on the basis of your incorrect assumptions. I expect, therefore, you shall wish to correct this. Should you, on reflection, decide to edit your above erroneous statement, I will then happily edit my response to remove any redundant quotations.

Blessings

Patrick S.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/429059#Comment_429059

Rene I feel that you need to temper your communications.

Queries on point of fact...

"free" engine that only works with all the extras built on top of it [...]

which are unconfirmed/unclarified should not be used to then jump to a completely unsubstantiated moral conclusion...

This seems at least deceptive to me

where you impugn people.

As someone else has already pointed out the forthcoming free engine upgrade will provide the bulk of functionality of Logos 4. Of course there is always the option that you stay with Logos 4 (if that is what you have). Just because Logos releases version 5 the previous versions don't automatically stop working — it is the same as with any other software package.

[...] who holds a monopoly in the market.

Are you sure this is the case, the dictionary definition of 'monopoly' does not agree with you. There are a number of competitors to Logos, some quite healthy, aggressive even, in their business vis-a-vis Logos.

I am not pointing all this this out with the purpose of knocking you down, mainly to ask that if you have a specific query then ask it honestly — there are many fellow users here in the forums who have lived out their commitment to helping others; if you have a specific complaint then speak it out (in humility) — I've never seen any Logos staff abuse customers having valid concerns/complaints.

John Graves

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/429092#Comment_429092

To me the problem is that Logos says updates will be free. When they mean that the basic engine is free. Their actual software is not free it costs money to use the updated Logos 5, calling it datasets still sounds like software to the average user, I understand that this costs money and it should, no one should expect limitless software upgrades for life. But it feels like that is what Logos promiseswhen they say that the software will always be free. There is information in the fine print that the typical customer does not see. If they could be more clear on the front sideabout the futurecosts of upgrades much of these problems would be gone. IMHO

I don't imagine anyone is surprised when it costs money to buy the new Bibleworks 9 because they are upfront about the cost to upgrade the software. Of course I may be wrong, that's just what it seems like to me.

They also are not helping themselves out by holding the free engine back for months from their current customers. Makes us feel like we have to pay to be treated like everyone else, it has certainly caused me to second guess any future purchases with them. Just my opinion again, its their company they can do what they want. I'm still happy with Logos 4 for now.

Andy

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/429096#Comment_429096

To me the problem is that Logos says updates will be free.

Hi John,

I agree that both communication and terminology is a contributing factor to some of the confusion and disgruntlement evident on the forums. I appreciate that the distinction between an update and an upgrade (the first we receive at no cost, the second must be purchased) is not necessarily immediately and obviously apparent.

In Logos' defence, it seems that they consistently differentiate between the two. However, it is apparent from the forums that this message is not always understood. Therefore, the only reasonable conclusion is that communication must continue to improve.

They also are not helping themselves out by holding the free engine back for months from their current customers. Makes us feel like we have to pay to be treated like everyone else, it has certainly caused me to second guess any future purchases with them. Just my opinion again, its their company they can do what they want.

I do appreciate your position and, however one looks at it, priority is being given to those who are able to pay to upgrade or crossgrade. I appreciate the frustration this must cause, but you are quite correct that it is, ultimately, Logos' decision and it does appear wise to try to manage demand (from the perspective of server capacity). Logos have been accused of holding back the free engine in order to maximise sales during the initial release period. I do not recall Logos presenting this as a rationale for delaying the availability of the free engine. However, even if this is the case, it makes sense that they should wish to maximise profit and it is their right to do so.

I'm still happy with Logos 4 for now.

This, I think, is a key point which has been stated and restated. L4 remains supported and functional. L4 will remain functional as long as one has a compatible OS (or virtual box) to run it.

Andy

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/429096#Comment_429096

Duplicate post

Patrick S.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/429096#Comment_429096

To me the problem is ...

I would agree with you regarding the confusion at the moment with Logos 5 and how it has brought into focus Logos' position regarding the software platform and upgrades.

Personally... I think that they should change their position of saying software upgrades are free. In the past the 'platform' (like most Bible software) started as an electronic means to read books — the books were the primary value. Then, because it was possible, and logical, the application platform started incorporating more and more, and more, analysis functionality. At some early stage — I don't know when, I came onboard with Logos 4 — Logos said the software would always be free, they would get revenue from books. When the software was simple that would have seemed sensible — it's no longer simple. In one sense the analysis tools are overtaking books in value, of course the reality is that both are important. The tools enable users to more effectively mine the 'precious metals' in the books — it's like using a huge digger vs. a shovel & wheelbarrow.

It is definitely a fact that the free engine upgrade is... free, and that it allows reading & using the resource library that users have. However... as the Logos platform gets more sophisticated (and desirable) people are comparing their wheelbarrows to the shiny and powerful digger and, obviously, wanting the digger.

May I ask in your specific situation you haven't availed yourself of the L5 cross-grade?

John Graves

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/429104#Comment_429104

May I ask in your specific situation you haven't availed yourself of the L5 cross-grade?

I have not gotten the gross-grade. For me its 230 for silver or 135 for the minimal cross-grade. I will probably end up doing the silver upgrade eventually. Not sure. I am just a little worried about the future with Logos. I jumped on the Logos 4 train as soon as it came out because of the promise of things such as handouts and according to the sales person I spoke with a fully functional very soon equal mac program. Neither of these came about. I ended up going back to the PC world after a few months of fighting the Mac version and Handouts went away. I am not bitter I know that sometimes companies over promise on their product. So now I will wait and see if the product (L5 crossgrade) is equal to the hype that is being put out. The same reason I will not upgrade to windows 8 for a while.

I have actually gone back to buying mostly paper commentaries when it comes to expensive sets such as NICOT/Word/etc. Still love Logos and still reccomend it but it is what it is.

Rene Atchley

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/429067#Comment_429067

The "free engine" without data sets is what?

An engine which provides you with all of the functionality for which you have paid (equating to the functionality available to you in L4). You may find that there is additional functionality, but you will need to await the release of the L5 engine to confirm this.

Indeed I could be wrong as usual.

I fully understand that feeling .

My concern, I guess, is that you have questioned the morality and integrity of Logos on the basis of your incorrect assumptions. I expect, therefore, you shall wish to correct this. Should you, on reflection, decide to edit your above erroneous statement, I will then happily edit my response to remove any redundant quotations.

Blessings

Lets for a moment take this post as another example of how debates on this site goes. A company produces a premium product and charges prices that reflect that market position and level of support. They offer a sample (similar to samples in a food court trying to get you to purchase a meal) which has essentially neutered the product in anticipation of trying to sell upgrade packages with more or full dataset capability. This is pointed out as a typical business practice that is, in fact, deception to the extent that it is claimed that such a free upgrade is the same as a purchased product. Then we commence arguing over the morality of a business that sells multiple product streams to various "religious" market niches with as much advertising gusto as possible. I would argue that morality and Christianity and Christians and faith has nothing to do with the profit making at Logos...its all about the cash. If the "morality and integrity" of Logos can't be question then I suggest their marketing dept. should get bonuses for their performance this year.

Andy

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/429132#Comment_429132

[It] is, in fact, deception to the extent that it is claimed that such a free upgrade is the same as a purchased product.

Herein, I fear, resides the problem. Who, other than yourself, has made this claim?

It seems to me that, at best, you are parodying Logos' position and then critiquing this same mythical position for some purpose that I do not fully understand. I have reviewed your most recent posts and am confident that you are not ignorant with regards to Logos' strategy and intentions in rolling out L5. I see little purpose, therefore, in offering further clarification.

Sincerely, if there is a problem either I or others can assist with, we will happily do so. Should you require assistance in using Logos Bible Software, there are many people here, as you are well aware, who will happily provide advice and support.

Blessings

John

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/429096#Comment_429096

To me the problem is that Logos says updates will be free. When they mean that the basic engine is free. Their actual software is not free it costs money to use the updated Logos 5, calling it datasets still sounds like software to the average user, I understand that this costs money and it should, no one should expect limitless software upgrades for life. But it feels like that is what Logos promiseswhen they say that the software will always be free. There is information in the fine print that the typical customer does not see. If they could be more clear on the front sideabout the futurecosts of upgrades much of these problems would be gone. IMHO

I don't imagine anyone is surprised when it costs money to buy the new Bibleworks 9 because they are upfront about the cost to upgrade the software. Of course I may be wrong, that's just what it seems like to me.

They also are not helping themselves out by holding the free engine back for months from their current customers. Makes us feel like we have to pay to be treated like everyone else, it has certainly caused me to second guess any future purchases with them. Just my opinion again, its their company they can do what they want. I'm still happy with Logos 4 for now.

In the past, there was a clear distinction between program and resources. The promise was made that you were purchasing resources, the reader program was always supposed to be free.

The changes being made to the resources themselves now are blurring that distinction. I believe they made a deliberate choice to go that direction.

To those who still believe something was wrong on my end regarding licensing and syncing, there is not. Some just cannot accept what i am saying as truth. Yet truth it is. I have already been on the phone enough. nelson titles, baker titles, church fathers, discussed on the phone. Was told that the package upgrade was already heavily discounted so it was not possible to give me any credit for having already purchasing them.

Andy

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/429142#Comment_429142

To those who still believe something was wrong on my end regarding licensing and syncing, there is not. Some just cannot accept what i am saying as truth. Yet truth it is. I have already been on the phone enough. nelson titles, baker titles, church fathers, discussed on the phone. Was told that the package upgrade was already heavily discounted so it was not possible to give me any credit for having already purchasing them.

Hi John,

Apologies, I am not able to look for your original thread at the moment. If you check back there, you will find that Bradley (an employee of Logos) directly addresses and responds to your concerns. Bradley has confirmed that purchases from third parties are credited where Logos are aware of such purposes. He provides you with the necessary steps to rectify your concerns.

Blessings