Biblical Languages Package
I am wondering why this package is not being offered to the general public?
The OL package was great for those of us who were not part of the protestant "evangelical" movement within the united states because it didn't have all the (IMHO) junk (apologetics, theology, and counseling to name just three categories).
It appears to me that Logos is treating its non "protestant evangelical movement" customers as second class customers (AGAIN) by taking away the only package that fits our needs.
Comments
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As, an owner of the OL package for Logos4 I also agree with and wonder why?:
tom said:I am wondering why this package is not being offered to the general public?
The OL package was great for those of us who were not part of the protestant "evangelical" movement within the united states
I think just as there is a Verbum line of Logos' packages, and there is the normal protestant "evangelical" package line: there should also be an Oringal langauge line/branding of packages.
חַפְּשׂוּ בַּתּוֹרָה הֵיטֵב וְאַל תִּסְתַּמְּכוּ עַל דְּבָרַי
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I have Original Languages for similar reasons. While the Minimal Crossgrade would generally serve my purposes (even if I am sure I will wish I had NA28 eventually as well as the Aland Synopsis) it is sad that the library that I have found useful is no longer generally marketed.
It seems obvious that American Evangelicalism is the major market with a strong reach into Roman Catholicism. While this makes more than a bit of marketing sense (take a look at religious bookstores), I hope that those of us outside those markets get to eat a bit more than scraps from the table...
The Gospel is not ... a "new law," on the contrary, ... a "new life." - William Julius Mann
L8 Anglican, Lutheran and Orthodox Silver, Reformed Starter, Academic Essentials
L7 Lutheran Gold, Anglican Bronze
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Kenneth McGuire said:
I hope that those of us outside those markets get to eat a bit more than scraps from the table...
Very wonderfully graphic, Kenneth! *smile* Thank you for the smile I will have for the next hour or so!
Philippians 4: 4 Rejoice in the Lord always; again I will say, Rejoice. 5 Let your reasonableness be known to everyone. The Lord is at hand..........
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Thanks for all the replies.
There was a discussion here about American Evangelical Protestants
being facilitated to a grater extent
than others. I am not sure if this is so. I have always thought
that Logos caters for all interested in the Bible, the word of God, whether from
an academic or a religious point of view.Can I take this opportunity to wish
all my American friends a very happy Thanksgiving?0 -
BKMitchell said:
As, an owner of the OL package for Logos4 I also agree with and wonder why?:
tom said:I am wondering why this package is not being offered to the general public?
The OL package was great for those of us who were not part of the protestant "evangelical" movement within the united states
I wonder "Why?" too. Especially when the likely purchaser of the Original Language package does not want most of the scraps that fall from the table. It seems better to me to have a small sale than no sale at all. It is not as if the minimalists will buy a large package of resources they deem "useless" just to get the few tools they deem valuable. Maybe Logos will reconsider. PLEASE?
Logos 7 Collectors Edition
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Thank you Noel!
I guess we'll need to hear from Milford whether Canadians riotously chow down on turkeys while, progressively becoming more excited over the football game!
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
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I think the original languages package fit a certain demographic well... I think Logos largely did away with it because it was an odd duck and sometimes caused problems when users wanted to upgrade.
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alabama24 said:
I think the original languages package fit a certain demographic well... I think Logos largely did away with it because it was an odd duck and sometimes caused problems when users wanted to upgrade.
I strongly disagree. There are many who do not, by choice, want all the ‘fillers’ that make up a package.
Also, speculation as to why something happens without real knowledge as to why something happened is just gibberish.
There are no problems, that I am aware of, concerning an upgrade from an OL package. Again, the purchaser gets looooooottttttsssss of fillers – books that will never get read.
I can’t think of anyone or know of anyone who has read every book in their current respective libraries - Can you?
DISCLAIMER: What you do on YOUR computer is your doing.
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Room4more said:
I can’t think of anyone or know of anyone who has read every book in their current respective libraries - Can you?
Have read 1% cover to cover and used 33%.
[I do searches that give me 500 resource hits - and then I actually look at all of the hits - have come across some interesting thoughts - takes a month]
Don't know anyone that has read a dictionary cover to cover.
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Room4more said:
I can’t think of anyone or know of anyone who has read every book in their current respective libraries - Can you?
My library is so large, if I read a book each day, I can not read them all before I die. I look at the big picture a bit differently than you do. Each time my Logos performs a search I read every word in my library by proxy in a matter of seconds instead of years. Logos is there to read for me and "redeem the time" so that I may spend my precious minutes on something else. [O]
Logos 7 Collectors Edition
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alabama24 said:
I think the original languages package fit a certain demographic well... I think Logos largely did away with it because it was an odd duck and sometimes caused problems when users wanted to upgrade.
I agree that OL fit a demographic well. The reason why it was an 'odd duck' came from (IMHO) Logos not understanding the demographic.
I do not agree with you as it comes to upgrades. I cannot speak for anyone else, but I do not plan to upgrade my package to another package because I can purchase the books that I want for less $$$$. From my understanding, I do not believe that I am alone with the plan to stay with the OL package.
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[Y]Super Tramp said:Especially when the likely purchaser of the Original Language package does not want most of the scraps that fall from the table. It seems better to me to have a small sale than no sale at all. It is not as if the minimalists will buy a large package of resources they deem "useless" just to get the few tools they deem valuable.
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DMB said:
Thank you Noel!
I guess we'll need to hear from Milford whether Canadians riotously chow down on turkeys while, progressively becoming more excited over the football game!
Peace and Blessing, Denise! It's been a long day, but a wonderful one as per usual, and I almost missed your post! Am glad I saw it; so I can wish you a late in the day, Happy and Blessed Thanksgiving.
Thank you very much, Denise, for your thoughts on your National Day of Thanksgiving! Actually we Canadians celebrate a wee bit differently, although lots of people favour turkey!
For us it's sort of a Thanksgiving Weekend. For us Thanksgiving Day is a holiday to give thanks for the blessings in one's life, particularly the harvest. It is a day off work for many Canadians. Since 1957 it has been held the second Monday of October. Since Organised Religion (for me that's the Christian Church!) has declined in Canada more than for you in the United States, I think it is less a religous holiday for most Canadians. I sort of think that it's more like continental Europe.
For English Canada, we call it Thanksgiving. For Quebec and other areas that are French-speaking, it is called le Jour d'Action de grâce. My cheerios cereal box comes in both French and English since we are technically a bi-lingual country.
For Christians who practise their faith, Sunday of Thanksgiving Weekend is celebrated as Thanksgiving Sunday. I get the impression that most congregations (all those I served for sure did) decorate the altars and chancels with the fruits of the earth in a Thanksgiving Display. Most Canadians have their family time together on Thanksgiving Monday, the official Canadian Holiday! Usually the Canadian Football League (CFL) has games on Thanksgiving Day.
The cornucopeia is very promiment here as I think it it is in your beloved country.
One of the things I personally hope for is for the leaves to go wild in colour around our Thanksgiving Time. We have sugar maples, sumacs, various hard woods and softwoods and the colours can be quite dynamic and dramatic.
I do a lot of praising our Gracious God in the Fall of the year also! For me fall is the time of "good" nostalgia. (Evidently there was grafitti on the subway wall in New York City that said, "Nostalgia ain't what it used to be!"
Even from the deck overlooking our back yard the Lord "treats" us with beauty and colour, this picture is from the deck where my wife and I have our personal herb garden, 5 steps from the kitchen.
Philippians 4: 4 Rejoice in the Lord always; again I will say, Rejoice. 5 Let your reasonableness be known to everyone. The Lord is at hand..........
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Can't seem to be able to post my back yard picture! So, Denise, Grace and Blessing!
and Happy Thanksgiving to you and all your Fellow Americans!
Philippians 4: 4 Rejoice in the Lord always; again I will say, Rejoice. 5 Let your reasonableness be known to everyone. The Lord is at hand..........
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Last try for my Canadian Thanksgiving personal backyard picture .....
Philippians 4: 4 Rejoice in the Lord always; again I will say, Rejoice. 5 Let your reasonableness be known to everyone. The Lord is at hand..........
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[Y]Kenneth McGuire said:I hope that those of us outside those markets get to eat a bit more than scraps from the table...
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[Y][Y]tom said:Super Tramp said:Especially when the likely purchaser of the Original Language package does not want most of the scraps that fall from the table. It seems better to me to have a small sale than no sale at all. It is not as if the minimalists will buy a large package of resources they deem "useless" just to get the few tools they deem valuable.
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[Y]Milford Charles Murray said:Last try for my Canadian Thanksgiving personal backyard picture .....
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Admittedly, now that there are Catholic packages things look a bit differently for me personally, but I still think this is a bad decision:
- If it hadn't been for OLL, I would never have bought Logos in the first place; I would have gone to the competitor (and you can look in my account to see how much that would have lost you!).
- You're pushing away the Jewish market.
- You're pushing away related secular markets: linguistics, Near Eastern studies, etc.
- You're pushing away Christians that don't feel at home in either the American Evangelical or the Catholic camps.
- You're pushing away people who simply want a Bible software for language related work, not for reading.
I'm more and more getting the impression that in non-financial matters Logos is a ministry. They know very well that most customers never buy anything but a base package, so if those base packages lean heavily in one direction, users are automatically going to slide over in that direction.
Isn't it a bit sad that a 'Bible alone' believing company won't let people actually study the Bible alone, without having a specific theology pushed down their throats?
Mac Pro (late 2013) OS 12.6.2
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Kenneth McGuire said:
Aland Synopsis
That's in even the lowest of the Verbum packages. You should at least check out what your upgrade price would be, especially if you don't own the ECF (which are also in the lowest package). Note:
- You need to go to the product pages to see your discount.
- You can get an extra 15% off with a coupon code.
- They say you'll get 25% through a sales rep.
- Take into consideration that your Crossgrade price should drop if you buy this first.
Actually, the top package Capstone is a bit of a Catholic-Jewish OLL on steroids. If one hasn't already bought almost everything in it at much higher prices (like I have [:'(]), it's absolutely amazing. It's got loads of heavy language stuff, including TDNT, BDAG, Liddell & Scott, the DSS Study Edition, and Philo, Josephus and the Pseudepigrapha in Greek. Plus the UBS Handbooks. Plus all (?) the Jewish stuff from Portfolio. Plus the PBI OT and NT Collections, the Second Temple Period Collection, the Gnostic & Apocryphal Studies Collection, a couple of JSNTS collections, and several others. Plus the Newman, Chesterton, Ratzinger and von Balthasar Collections. Plus Papal and Church documents. Plus lots of Patristic, Medieval and Reformation stuff. Plus plus plus. And all for pennies on the dollar. If I hadn't already payed close to $1,200 this year alone for resources that now turn out to be included for on average $2 a piece, I would have been dancing like those spirit-filled bananas for three weeks straight by now.
Mac Pro (late 2013) OS 12.6.2
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fgh said:
I'm more and more getting the impression that in non-financial matters Logos is a ministry. They know very well that most customers never buy anything but a base package, so if those base packages lean heavily in one direction, users are automatically going to slide over in that direction.
Isn't it a bit sad that a 'Bible alone' believing company won't let people actually study the Bible alone, without having a specific theology pushed down their throats?
It might also be a bit that way due to the public domain resources revamped for the logos platform being less costly to create per dollar - and a longer list is generated per package type due to this..
I didn't think about it from your point of view tho. for bible software I'd like language stuff + as many references materials (Bible focussed not novels) from multiple perspectives. the languages stuff isn't an option to me.. but I'd not choose the extremely 'hardcore boring looking ones like bdag...' but i do want the hardcore useful ones.
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Thank you Milford! I did not deserve such a rich discussion. First I knew Canada probably didn't have 'our' Thanksgiving since their early settlers didn't wear pilgrim hats. I don't know why they're called that ... early artist renderings? Second I had no idea Canada's Thanksgiving was kind of spread out (which makes sense, since the agricultural areas are quite large). But third, I didn't know the mix of organized religion had declined more than here .... especially since we're the nutty people!!
But thank you ... your trees are gorgeous. We're in northern Arkansas (War Eagle Creek near the flour mill) and the trees have already turned. So it's nice to see yours!
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
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fgh said:Kenneth McGuire said:
Aland Synopsis
That's in even the lowest of the Verbum packages. You should at least check out what your upgrade price would be, especially if you don't own the ECF (which are also in the lowest package). Note:
- You need to go to the product pages to see your discount.
- You can get an extra 15% off with a coupon code.
- They say you'll get 25% through a sales rep.
- Take into consideration that your Crossgrade price should drop if you buy this first.
I have looked at getting/adding one of the Catholic packages. Unfortunately the money isn't there for me now, but the Catholic packages have been more interesting to me for a while. But I am a weird Lutheran who was teaching a study of the Apostolic Fathers and was tired of going to a local college library to read ABD (AYBD now) and after comparing prices decided to save money by getting the computer edition. While that was on the way, I saw that a cheap E-bible edition at the local Christian Bookstore would integrate with the Anchor, as well as add some more English bibles for comparison purposes. After using these for a bit, I realized it could do more with more and got OLL.
I am not at all sure if I would have gotten into Logos with the present offerings, even as I marvel at the diversity of materials for the platform. What I have will do well for me for a while, I just wonder if the next "me" would pick Logos. I went back to the school I attended and saw a couple community computers in the Library with the competitor's product in the exegetical reference section. While I understand 1) how that competitor has traditionally been a bit more efficient at "hard-core" exegesis, and 2) Logos' license model, it saddens me that Logos was not more visible when there are so many books - including very high level, technical works, that are able to be tied together with it.
As a side note, it always gives me a chuckle when people seem to think the only theological options out there are Calvinism and Arminianism... There is so much more out there.
The Gospel is not ... a "new law," on the contrary, ... a "new life." - William Julius Mann
L8 Anglican, Lutheran and Orthodox Silver, Reformed Starter, Academic Essentials
L7 Lutheran Gold, Anglican Bronze
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tom said:
I am wondering why this package is not being offered to the general public?
There's no theological conspiracy here. Original Languages simply sold very few units, and it didn't fit the "each package is a super-set of the previous package" hierarchy. We felt it introduced more confusion than clarity in purchase process / comparison charts. (And I think we made this decision before we established the dynamic pricing engine.) As you've pointed out, we do have a new "Biblical Languages" package which we're offering via academic sales, which is where almost all Original Languages sales happened.
We may offer it via the web site in the future; I expect we may even have other specialized collections. But whatever they are, you can be sure we aren't pushing a particular theological position; we're just trying to meet the market needs.
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Room4more said:
I strongly disagree. There are many who do not, by choice, want all the ‘fillers’ that make up a package.
What do you strongly disagree with? Did I not say the same thing?
alabama24 said:I think the original languages package fit a certain demographic well...
I called the Original Languages package an "Odd Duck" because it was… By calling it an "Odd Duck" I was not saying that it was a bad thing. By reading me in context, you would have known that. The Original Languages package was an "Odd Duck" because it didn't fit the pattern of all of the other packages (which build upon one another).
Room4more said:There are no problems, that I am aware of, concerning an upgrade from an OL package.
By "problems," I mean confusion. I have read many threads by owners of the Original Languages package who were confused about upgrading, or who were wondering why they didn't have certain resources or features in their software… I think that the Prayer List feature was left out of the package, but I may be mistaken on that.
Again… I am not agreeing with the decision. I am not saying that there wasn't a good use for the package. I am not saying that it shouldn't return. I simply suggested one reason why Logos might want to get rid of the package.
EDIT: Bob posted while I was writing my reply. I think he summed up what I was trying to say. I guess my speculation was right after all. [:P]
Bob Pritchett said:There's no theological conspiracy here. Original Languages simply sold very few units, and it didn't fit the "each package is a super-set of the previous package" hierarchy. We felt it introduced more confusion than clarity in purchase process / comparison charts.
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Kenneth McGuire said:
I am a weird Lutheran
I think I'm probably a weirder one.[:D]
Kenneth McGuire said:it always gives me a chuckle when people seem to think the only theological options out there are Calvinism and Arminianism...
I've spent years on theological studies, and I can't remember even hearing about Arminianism until I started reading these forums... Looking it up now, I see that our 400+ page introductory book on church history spend exactly 3 sentences on the Arminian-Calvinist controversy.
Mac Pro (late 2013) OS 12.6.2
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tom said:
I am wondering why this package is not being offered to the general public?
The OL package was great for those of us who were not part of the protestant "evangelical" movement within the united states because it didn't have all the (IMHO) junk (apologetics, theology, and counseling to name just three categories).
It appears to me that Logos is treating its non "protestant evangelical movement" customers as second class customers (AGAIN) by taking away the only package that fits our needs.
I started buying resources a la carte, but eventually I got the OL package. I did branch out beyond that, but I think an OL package would be ideal for many. I didn't "upgrade" to one of the new packages because I didn't want all o the counselling, hermeneutics and ministerial resources included in most of them. I'm sure there are others who feel similarly. Perhaps we could have an interlinear-free zone too.
george
gfsomselיְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן
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fgh said:You're pushing away the Jewish market.
You're pushing away related secular markets: linguistics, Near Eastern studies, etc.
You're pushing away Christians that don't feel at home in either the American Evangelical or the Catholic camps.
You're pushing away people who simply want a Bible software for language related work, not for reading.I disagree with your conclusion. Just because some do not want certain resources should not require the abolition of such resources. I personally find the Hebrew language materials of little use because I am not adept at Hebrew (yet!) but I would never feel "pushed away" because Logos offers these resources to those who are skilled in Hebrew. The availability of some lectionaries does not put me off either. I know some Logos users can't stand the apologetics offerings.
The products list remind me of Milford's cornucopia picture; something in the mix should interest most users.
Logos 7 Collectors Edition
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That's not a good counter-example, since Hebrew is not denominational. I happen to be in the boat described. I have never purchased a package because I don't want all the Protestant fluff. OL is the only package I ever considered. I have sometimes thought about jumping over to Accordance, as their packages include Judaic packages and ANE materials instead of counseling, church planting, etc. But I have too much invested in Logos now to do so. I just wanted to speak up and reaffirm the previous point. I also know other people in my boat who have made the choice for Accordance instead of Logos for just those reasons.
"The whole modern world has divided itself into Conservatives and Progressives. The business of Progressives is to go on making mistakes. The business of Conservatives is to prevent mistakes from being corrected."- G.K. Chesterton
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Hello Alabama24
alabama24 said:I called the Original Languages package an "Odd Duck" because it was… By calling it an "Odd Duck" I was not saying that it was a bad thing.
I have never once heard the term"odd duck" or any phrase with "odd" used in a positive way or as a good thing. It, sounds more like a phrase with negative or even condescending intentions to me. However, I highly appreciate that you took the time to explain yourself though.
חַפְּשׂוּ בַּתּוֹרָה הֵיטֵב וְאַל תִּסְתַּמְּכוּ עַל דְּבָרַי
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Well, BK ... looks like you don't go hunting. (Which is ok).
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
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DMB said:
Well, BK ... looks like you don't go hunting. (Which is ok).
Would, an odd duck be more tasty or easier to catch?
חַפְּשׂוּ בַּתּוֹרָה הֵיטֵב וְאַל תִּסְתַּמְּכוּ עַל דְּבָרַי
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does anyone have the link to the Biblical Languages package? I am in the academic program and can't even find it...
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Ryan Collman said:
does anyone have the link to the Biblical Languages package?
I am not awarethat there are any.
I think you have to get in touch with Logos directly.
Regards, SteveF
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Bob Pritchett said:tom said:
I am wondering why this package is not being offered to the general public?
There's no theological conspiracy here. Original Languages simply sold very few units, and it didn't fit the "each package is a super-set of the previous package" hierarchy. We felt it introduced more confusion than clarity in purchase process / comparison charts. (And I think we made this decision before we established the dynamic pricing engine.) As you've pointed out, we do have a new "Biblical Languages" package which we're offering via academic sales, which is where almost all Original Languages sales happened.
We may offer it via the web site in the future; I expect we may even have other specialized collections. But whatever they are, you can be sure we aren't pushing a particular theological position; we're just trying to meet the market needs.
Bob,
Thanks for sharing this information.
I would like to share a personal story. I was talking with some people from the LGBT community. They shared with me that some of my language was offensive to them, and they shared why it was offensive. Did I know that I was being offensive? No. Did I want to be offensive? No. Was I being offensive? Yes.
I believe the same can be said with Logos' base packages. Do you intend to have a theological bias? No. Do you intend to package your product to make the most sells? Yes (and this is a good thing). But by doing this, you are pushing the theological position of the majority of your customers. Therefore, you do have a theological bias.
What I am saying about the old OL package and the new BL package is that they did not have the same theological bias, and thus why I purchase that package.
Several people on this thread stated that they would not have been a Logos customer if it wasn't for the OL package, and I consider myself one of them.
Therefore, removing the package from public sends a bad message to me - that I do not count.
You stated that OL was sold mainly through the academic program. I would also ask you to see who purchased the OL and why the ones who did not upgrade (like me). I have a funny feeling that we are a customer base that you would like to expand to include.
Bob, you stated (if I remember correctly) that you were surprised that people who had the OL also wanted the lectionaries. I believe that this is an indication of who has the old OL and why we have it (we do not want any of the other packages because of the theological bias.)
Because I had the OL, I have purchased other books from Logos. I think the same is true with other OL customers.
I believe the old OL and new BL package is a gateway for new Logos customers. Therefore, please offer the BL package to the public.
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Very well put, Tom.
I get the feeling from Logos that the Original Languages library is designed for academic settings and that they cannot see the appeal of it to any outside it. Because they don't understand this appeal, they didn't really market it well and so it didn't sell. And so they don't sell it at all to the general public.
I recall many of the Libronix reviews listed on the Logos website by Lutheran publications recommended the Original Languages Library as an excellent deal for parish pastors. While I am not one, I found it an good deal as well. For some interesting background to the lectionary issue, take a look at http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/LogosForLutherans/message/384
Perhaps the wisest course of action is to let the dying product die, but as you said, the way they have done so suggests to us that we are not valued. But if Logos cares about expanding into markets of people who have found this offering to be valuable, Logos should listen to what we say and try to come up with an offering that would appeal to us.
To use a parish example - I have seen a place where the way we "fixed" a weak youth program was to let it die from lack of participation, which, while it hurt for a while, also inspired people to come out of the woodwork and come up with something MUCH better...
The Gospel is not ... a "new law," on the contrary, ... a "new life." - William Julius Mann
L8 Anglican, Lutheran and Orthodox Silver, Reformed Starter, Academic Essentials
L7 Lutheran Gold, Anglican Bronze
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I am often reminded that feelings and the truth not always align well. I'm in no way trying to downplay how you feel but Bob's statement indicates that the truth of why they are not currently offering it to the public. I am grateful everyone had a great experience and enjoyed OL, but, again, Bob's stated purpose is not to dismiss anyone. Ted, your real life experience with the LGTB community serves this point well. I have witnessed to members of that community. Did they think what I said was offensive? YES! But was it offensive? Only to those who were perishing. I did it with gentleness, love, and concern over their condition. Did they see it that way? Probably not but God did. I think the same thing is happening here. A lot is changing at Logos and it's easy to say they've neglected us for this or that reason. I think we should offer grace and share our opinions (which you have done - thank you for that!) but at the end of the day, live with the reality that this is no personal attack or attempt to shaft a group of people. I think that's the best part of being able to buy just the data sets and then individual works through a sales person - no "theological weight" (if you want to call it that) from a base package but plenty of good deals on what you want to read. Thank you for taking the time to read my response
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I think Bob is AGAIN, correct. Our pastor frequently points out how wrong headed the scholars, seminaries and (yes) Bible colleges are. By eliminating the OL package (or at least carefully hiding it), this is just one more great step in shutting down the scholarly community. And not too soon too! Even the good apostle Paul seemed to be embarassed at sitting at the feet of Gamaliel (according to Luke, but that's just one more scholarly opinion gone wrong).
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
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Kenneth McGuire said:
I recall many of the Libronix reviews listed on the Logos website by Lutheran publications recommended the Original Languages Library as an excellent deal for parish pastors.
The OL was also recommended to me in seminary if I was going to purchase a Logos base package. The reason, I would not use any of the other items (unless I went to gold, and then cost was the factor).
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Just to add my thoughts ... I think the Original Languages package sold very little simply because as a package, it wasn't complete enough to do serious good Original Language study.
No BDAG. No HALOT. No BHS Apparatus. No NA27 Critical Apparatus. No UBS4 Apparatus. No Liddell-Scott Lexicon. No Joüon/Muraoka Hebrew Grammar. No Waltke/O'Connor Hebrew Syntax. No Wallace Greek Grammar. The text apparatuses and modern standard lexicon grammars are simply not there, and you have to pay hundreds more to get them.
The Original Language package just wasn't complete enough. People generally buy things in packages because the package has everything they need. They don't want to buy a package AND bunch of extras.0 -
On my original OLL box there was marked over with a sticker that it included BAGD.... That would have been nice. Even if replaced now by BDAG, the BAGD is a solid lexicon.
My ORIGINAL OLL was weak in a few areas - apparati on the original texts, Grammars, and the key modern lexica. To some extent all those weaknesses remained to the more recent versions.
For the New Testament, between Comfort and Tischendorf, the information is now there, even if I wished NA27 info was there. But for Hebrew? Much solid info is there with the text of ancient versions but still now real apparatus.
In Grammars, the "RA" version I started with had next to nothing. Thankfully they included some 19th century grammars that have a bit of use left into later versions. But I was sure when I got the Robertson Grammar when it was released for Libronix that it would be in the package in a few years, and it is still an extra...
For Lexica it was dated, yes. But quite a bit of good info is in BDB and TDNT. My understanding is that publishers of BDAG and HALOT knew the value of these resources and wouldn't allow package discounts...
With the addition of Perseus, you can find out quite a bit of lexical info about usage of Greek in the reports...
The Gospel is not ... a "new law," on the contrary, ... a "new life." - William Julius Mann
L8 Anglican, Lutheran and Orthodox Silver, Reformed Starter, Academic Essentials
L7 Lutheran Gold, Anglican Bronze
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Here is what comes with the BL Package...
A Concise Hebrew and Aramaic Lexicon of the Old Testament
A Grammar of Biblical Hebrew, rev. ed. (Paul Joüon, Takamitsu Muraoka)
A Grammatical Analysis of the Greek New Testament
A Harmony of Samuel, Kings, and Chronicles (Crockett)
A Harmony of the Gospels (Robertson)
A Harmony of the Synoptic Gospels
A Textual Commentary on the Greek New Testament
A Textual Guide to the Greek New Testament
American Standard Version
An Introduction to Aramaic
An Introduction to Biblical Hebrew Syntax
An Introduction to Ecclesiastical Latin
Apocryphal New Testament
Apostolic Fathers in English
Apostolic Fathers Reverse Interlinear
Aramaic Papyri of the Fifth Century BC
Beginning Biblical Hebrew
BHS Text
Bible Analysis Addin
Bible Illustrations
Bible Puzzles Addin
Bible Sense Lexicon
Bible Tools Addin
BiblePlaces.com Image Library
Biblical Hebrew for Beginners
Biblical Languages Addin
Biblical People
Biblical People Addin
Biblical PlacesBiblical Things
BK Events
Book of Common Prayer (1979) Daily Office
LectionaryBook of Common Prayer (1979) Sunday Lectionary
Brenton LXX (English)
Brenton LXX (Greek)
Brown Driver Briggs Hebrew/Lexicon
Building Your Biblical Hebrew Vocabulary
Building Your New Testament Greek Vocabulary
Cascadia Syntax Graphs of the New Testament: SBLGNT Edition
Catholic Lectionary
Chapman’s New Testament-Greek Notebook
Christian Worship One Year Lectionary
Christian Worship Three Year Lectionary (with Supplemental Lectionary)
Clausal Outlines of the Greek New Testament: SBL Edition
Clause Search
Clementine Vulgate
Compare Parallel Bible Versions Addin
Complete Works of Josephus
Concise Oxford English Dictionary, 11th Edition
Davidson’s Introductory Hebrew Grammar
Diagrammatical Analysis
Dictionary of Biblical Languages (Aramaic OT)
Dictionary of Biblical Languages (Greek NT)
Dictionary of Biblical Languages (Hebrew OT)Dictionary of the Vulgate New Testament Douay-Rheims Bible
Elzevir Textus Receptus (1624) with Morphology
English Standard Version
ESV English-Greek Reverse Interlinear of the New Testament
ESV English-Hebrew Reverse Interlinear of the Old Testament
Eusebian Canons (Eusebius)
Figures of Speech Used in the Bible (Bullinger)
Glossary of Morpho-Syntactic Database Terminology
Grammar of the Greek New Testament in the Light of Historical Research
Graphical Query Editor Addin
Greek Audio New Testament
Greek New Testament Insert
Greek Pronunciation Addin with Erasmian & Modern Data Sets
Greek-English Lexicon Based on Semantic Domains L-N
Greek-English Lexicon of the Septuagint
Harmony of the Gospels
HarperCollins Bible Dictionary
Hebrew and Chaldee Lexicon to the Old Testament Scriptures (Gesenius) 39.95Hebrew Bible Insert
Hebrew Grammar (Gesenius)
Hebrew Syntax
Holman Christian Standard Bible
Idioms of the Greek New Testament, Second Edition
Images from A Biblical and Theological Dictionary
Images from A Dictionary of the Bible
Images from A Standard Bible Dictionary
Images from An Illustrated History of the Holy Bible
Images from Helps to the Study of the Bible
Images from Illustrations of the Bible from the Monuments of Egypt
Images from The Bible Hand-Book
Images from The Illustrated Bible Treasury
Images from The People’s Bible Encyclopedia
Images from The Temple Bible Dictionary
Images of the Holy Lands
Introduction to Biblical Greek Collection
Jackson Jude – 2 Peter (Jackson)
Josephus in Greek: Niese Critical Edition with Apparatus
Kairos: A Beginning Greek Grammar & Workbook
Keil & Delitzsch Commentary on the Old Testament
King James Version
King James Version Apocrypha
KJV English-Greek Reverse Interlinear
KJV English-Hebrew Reverse Interlinear
Learning Biblical Hebrew: A New Approach Using Discourse Analysis
Learning New Testament Greek Now and Then
LEB English-Greek Reverse Interlinear
LEB English-Hebrew Reverse Interlinear
Lectionary Addin
Lexham Analytical Lexicon of the Greek New Testament
Lexham Analytical Lexicon of the Septuagint: H.B. Swete Edition
Lexham Apostolic Fathers Reverse Interlinear
Lexham Bible Dictionary
Lexham English Bible
Lexham English Septuagint
Lexham Greek-English Interlinear New Testament: SBL Edition
Lexham Greek-English Interlinear Septuagint: H.B. Swete Edition (including alt texts)
Lexham Hebrew Bible with Morphology
Lexham Hebrew Septuagint Reverse interlinear: H.B. Swete Edition
Lexham Hebrew-English Interlinear Bible
Lexham Interlinear Septuagint: Rahfs
Lexham LXX / MT Parallel Alignment (reverse interlinear (for BWS)
Liddell and Scott Greek-English Lexicon
Light from the Ancient East
Linguistic Analysis of Biblical Hebrew
LLS Addin
Logos Bible Images
Logos Bible Photos
Logos Bible Software Addin
Logos Bible Software Infographics
Logos Bible Software Maps
Logos Deluxe Map Set
Lutheran Service Book Historic (One Year) Lectionary
Lutheran Service Book Three Year Lectionary
Merriam-Webster Collegiate Dictionary, Eleventh Edition
Merriam-Webster Collegiate Thesaurus
More Light on the Path: Daily Scripture Readings in Hebrew and Greek
NASB95 English-Greek Reverse Interlinear
NASB95 English-Hebrew Reverse Interlinear
Nestle-Aland 28th Edition Greek New Testament
New American Standard Bible – 1995 Update
New Century Version
New King James Version
New Living Translation
New Revised Standard Version
New Testament Apocrypha
New Testament Synonyms (Trench)
NIV 2011 English-Greek Reverse Interlinear
NIV 2011 English-Hebrew Reverse Interlinear
NKJV English-Greek Reverse Interlinear
NKJV English-Hebrew Reverse Interlinear
NLT English-Greek Reverse Interlinear
NRSV English-Greek Reverse Interlinear
NRSV English-Hebrew Reverse Interlinear
NT Genre Coding
NT Semantic Domain Coding
Nunn’s Syntax, Elements, and Key to the Elements of New Testament Greek
Old Testament Allusions
Old Testament Greek Pseudepigrapha with Morphology
Old Testament Quotes in the New Testament (HCSB)
Original Languages Addin
OT Genre Coding
Pastoral Epistles (Brannan)
Personal Bible Study Tools Addin
Personal Book Builder Reader Key
Phrase Concordance
Rahlf’s Septuagint w/Logos Morphology
Records of the Life of Jesus
Referent Data
Remote Library Search Addin
Reported Speech
Revised Common Lectionary
Revised Common Lectionary Daily Readings
Revised Standard Version
Richter Hebrew Morphology
SBL/Logos Greek New Testament
Sentence Diagramming Addin
Septuagint Variants with Logos Morphology
Septuagint Variants with Logos Morphology Reverse Interlinear
Stephen’s Textus Receptus (1550) with Morphology
Student’s Guide to the Textual Criticism of the Bible
Swete LXX with Morphology (text, alt text, app, alt text app)
Synopsis of the Four Gospels (Aland)
Synopsis of the Old Testament (Jackson)
Syntax of the Hebrew Language of the Old Testament
Syntax of the Moods and Tenses in NT Greek
Syntax Tools Addin
Tanakh (JPS)
Tanakh (old)
Thayer’s Greek Lexicon
The Andersen-Forbes Analyzed Text of the Hebrew Bible
The Andersen-Forbes Analyzed Text of the Hebrew Bible: A Systematic Glossary
The Andersen-Forbes Phrase Marker Analysis of the Hebrew Bible
The Animals Mentioned in the Bible
The Apocrypha and Pseudepigrapha of the Old Testament in English
The Apostolic Fathers Greek-English Interlinear
The Apostolic Fathers, with an English Translation
The Apostolic Fathers: Revised Texts with Short Introductions and English Translations
The Dead Sea Scrolls Study Edition Vol. I: 1Q1-4Q273 – Vol. II: 4Q274-11Q31
The Greek New Testament, Fourth Revised Edition (with Morphology) (Logos)
The Lexham Syntactic Greek New Testament
The Lexham Syntactic Greek New Testament Glossary
The Lexham Syntactic Greek New Testament: Sentence Analysis
The NET Bible
The New Testament in Greek (Scrivener 1881)
The New Testament in Greek (Westcott and Hort)
The New Testament in the Original Greek: Byzantine Textform
The OpenText.org Syntactically Analyzed Greek New Testament
The OpenText.org Syntactically Analyzed Greek New Testament Glossary 0The OpenText.org Syntactically Analyzed Greek New Testament: Clause Analysis
The Parallel Aligned Hebrew-Aramaic and Greek Texts of Jewish Scripture
The Plants of the Bible
The Targums from the files of the Comprehensive Aramaic Lexicon Project
The Text of the Earliest New Testament Greek Manuscripts
The Works of Philo: Greek Text with Morphology
Theological Dictionary of the New Testament, Unabridged
Theological Lexicon of the New Testament (3 vols.)
Theological Lexicon of the Old Testament (3 vols.)
Tischendorf Apparatus
Treasury of Scripture Knowledge
Understanding BHS
United Methodist Revised Common Lectionary
Universal Timeline
WIVU Hebrew Morphology
Works of Philo
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Ryan Collman said:
Here is what comes with the BL Package...
Thanks Ryan for this info. I could not help to noticed that it comes with the NIV 2011 Interlinears, but it does not come with the NIV 2011.
I am also wondering how knowing the The Plants of the Bible is going to help with the Greek text?
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tom said:
Thanks Ryan for this info. I could not help to noticed that it comes with the NIV 2011 Interlinears, but it does not come with the NIV 2011.
The "NIV Interlinear" is the "NIV". Same for the ESV and other Interlinears included. They are Bibles that optionally allow you to turn on the Reverse Interlinear.
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Original Languages in Logos 4 was like that too. So I had the NIV from another source and so got the interlinear(s). Never really used it, but got it.
The Gospel is not ... a "new law," on the contrary, ... a "new life." - William Julius Mann
L8 Anglican, Lutheran and Orthodox Silver, Reformed Starter, Academic Essentials
L7 Lutheran Gold, Anglican Bronze
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I know someone with the new Biblical Languages Package, and he can open these Bibles and use them.
EDIT: I double checked with the person I know who bought the Biblical Languages pack, and the NIV is in fact not included.
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I'm glad they included the Bible puzzles addin! (Sounds very Libronix-ish). George (I think) periodically mentioned the puzzles but I never saw them (I have the 'old' OL package).
I think they'd do better to label the package 'Academic'. If 'Works of Philo' is the Yonge version, not sure how that's a big plus for OL. The greek version is quite useful especially as regards the OT.
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
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DMB said:
I'm glad they included the Bible puzzles addin! (Sounds very Libronix-ish). George (I think) periodically mentioned the puzzles but I never saw them (I have the 'old' OL package).
I think they'd do better to label the package 'Academic'. If 'Works of Philo' is the Yonge version, not sure how that's a big plus for OL. The greek version is quite useful especially as regards the OT.
Perhaps they could make a reverse interlinear of Philo with the Yong translation. Then users could pretend that they understand the original of Philo too. [A]
george
gfsomselיְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן
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Excellent suggestion George. It takes me FOREVER to right click each Philo greek word to get its meaning!
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
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Perhaps they should also make reverse interlinears for Homer and the Perseus texts. There's nothing like taking a text and throwing it in the mix-master to stir it up a bit.
george
gfsomselיְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן
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