Issue #XXXXXXXXXXX

I realize everyone is in love w/ 4...but I'm not. It may have plenty of capability, but it is loaded with extraneous crap and despite obvious effort to give it plenty of options, it rarely seems to do what I want, in the way I want. There are some things that may potentially become useful to me, but getting to that point is going to be arduous and take weeks or even months. The "look" everyone else loves bugs me...even though I can't put my finger on just why. I know it has something to do with the upscale "KIndle-like" gray scale approach. Maybe it also has to do with the fact that the slick look of the presentation is befuddled with incessant "busy-ness". As I've mentioned in other posts, having ADD, therefore I don't want to see ANYTHING unless I need it...but I would like to have access to things with one or two button clicks. Also, I don't want to type anything in order to navigate--to me typing to navigate is failure. I shouldn't ever have to type anything except my own notes and the occasional search. Morris Proctor's entire series of videos begins with "type in the verse you are starting with". I NEVER do that...I often don't know know exactly what verse I want to go to or study--I either start from a search or I simply open my Bible, SCROLL with my MOUSE to where I wish to begin, and read. That said, the search that is created by typing in the "home page passage box" is something I ought to be able to generate with a right click and left click, and in certain cases (if more than a single verse is desired), a highlight. Is this possible, and if so how?

The particular issue I have in mind right now is the "ribbon" on the home page. To me it's like a recepticle for unwanted junk mail. I have picked my prefered bible: NASB. That's never going to change, so I want the "CHOOSE YOUR PREFERED BIBLE!!!" to disappear...forever. The box next to that...I have no idea what it is or why it is and don't care...but it keeps inviting me to read mess I don't care about, like a Catholic Lectionary. I want it to disappear too. I don't have time nor interest in "Reading Plans"...I want that to disappear. And I don't have near enough time to read the thousands of things I want to read, much less someone-I-don't-know's "Reading List"...so I want that unwanted suggestion to go "bye-bye" as well. The whole ribbon should be blank as a fresh sheet of paper...and stay that way. How do I make that happen?

Another thing I just noticed: when I float my bible in a panel so I can read without having the annoyance of all those other crammed windows, why, when I send it back to the Bible window, does it go to the final position on the right side? Each time I have to manually drag it back to first position on the left. Why can't it just go back where it came from?

The one thing I really do like about 4, and frankly it was a loooong time coming, is the "one-click" to open my favorite Bible. I have added the NASB icon to the top bar and in that one act have derived the bulk of the rare satisfaction I've received thus far from 4. I expect familiarity will improve my demeanor eventually, but right now the "whiz bang" is far outweighed by "whiff"...as in "swing and miss".

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Comments

David,

here's an idea...get a refund and save the frustration....

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/42963#Comment_42963

here's an idea...get a refund and save the frustration....

[Y]

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/42972#Comment_42972

Sticking with Logos 3 is only a good idea if Logos promises to support it indefinitely.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/42977#Comment_42977

Sticking with Logos 3 is only a good idea if Logos promises to support it indefinitely.

I think we all know that isn't going to happen.

However if you bought an upgrade to 4.0 and don't like it then return it for a refund. Once 3.0 is no longer supported, then try switching to the newest version and see if that better suits your needs. No point in on-going frustration or disappointment.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/42982#Comment_42982

Have you tried making a layout that does not include the home page? Maybe with the search page and your preferred bible?

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/42990#Comment_42990

You can skip the home page by opening the customize dialog box (customize at the lower left corner) and uncheck show home page. Then it gives you the same screen it had when you last logged out. This option would at least mean that you do not need to see the offending ribbon.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/42963#Comment_42963

David,

here's an idea...get a refund and save the frustration....

Agree [Y]

Ted

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/43006#Comment_43006

Don, and Robert's suggestions should do the job as far as the ribbon is concerned.

I was NOT an imediate fan of L4. It was mainly due to the fact that I was soo used to L3. L4 doesn't do things the same way so it WAS indeed (and in some cases still is) frustrating. That being said, I am liking L4 more and more every week and expect that to continue.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/43017#Comment_43017

Have you watched all the videos?

As has been mentioned, V4 is very different than V3. It is not intended to work at all like the previous version, so we are required to learn the way it is intended to be used.

Also, some of your frustrations have been noted by many, and I imagine in time will be addressed. Logos4 is not a finished product, but rather a work in progress. The most necessary features are present and the rest is being added almost weekly. It might be good to come back at Logos 4 in a couple of months - at the rate things have been progressing, you might have a very different experience.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/42963#Comment_42963

here's an idea...get a refund and save the frustration....

What an ungracious response! Surely the gift of encouragement is not known among you and your supporters.

Regarding David's points, the things that bug him bug me too, and the things that he likes, I like. Yet, there's still a good bit more that I like about Logos 4, and a good bit more that I think still needs work on too. I just think that it was released with too much not right, and it's causing a fair bit of frustration in places. But I think that the development team needs our support to have time to (hopefully) address these, even though the product seems to have been released too early.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/42963#Comment_42963

David,

here's an idea...get a refund and save the frustration....

Ouch - certainly no hint of Charity here. A little tolerance and understanding is, I think, not an unreasonable expectation..

David,

While I don't suffer from ADHD, I share some of your concerns - and as I've mentioned elsewhere, the idea of a typing-based interface as the only option for some things is baffling. I'm hopeful that since many have expressed concern with some of the same things you've mentioned, the folks at Logos will take note and make some changes.

I hope you don't give up on the product, though. Keep up the dialogue, and try to make a difference. If not you, then who?

I have to admit, I was quite surprised at how "unfinished" Logos4 is. The glass-is-half-full folks among us call it a "work in progess". That said, since development and tuning still seem to be underway, we can take advantage of that and press for those things we think need fixing.

Blessings

Jim D.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/43043#Comment_43043

David,

here's an idea...get a refund and save the frustration....

Ouch - certainly no hint of Charity here. A little tolerance and understanding is, I think, not an unreasonable expectation..

Jim,

what's not charitable about the most sensible solution to his problem?

He spent 3 paragraphs talking about how Logos wasn't floating his boat....

I suggested rather than keep wearing those ill fitting shoes and complaining....why not buy a pair of shoes you'd be happy with?

It might have been A LITTLE different had he said:

"I'm new to logos and I'm a little frustrated...I need to do these X amount of things and I cannot seem to find out how to do them....can someone help?"

That sure is a looooonnnggg way from the tone and content of his post...is it not? How about charity begins at home post?

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/43030#Comment_43030

here's an idea...get a refund and save the frustration....

What an ungracious response! Surely the gift of encouragement is not known among you and your supporters.

David Paul,

Please remember these responses do not represent the official Logos response to your frustrations. Because of responses like this I was ready to throw in the towel on Logos by Friday of the lunch week. I was so happy and excited as I ordered L4 Monday morning, it felt like a celebration, but by Friday it felt like a funeral. It seemed to me that the Logos I had grown to know and love had died, but then I remembered that these were just over zealous users, not Logos the company.

Be assured you are not the only person that has found L4’s initial release less than impressive. Everything you have mentioned others had pointed out as well. In addition, some of the problems are not just that you don’t have a new enough computer or because you have not read every single forum post or watched every video or that you are too tied to how L3 worked. There are some things that just don’t work well in this program, the help file is incomplete and it runs slow on even the best computers. All the “rah-rah this is the greatest thing since sliced bread” talk will not change these facts.

That said, I do see lots of potential in L4 and believe it is headed in the right direction. I encourage you to continue working with it. Despite how I felt after the first week, I do still believe in Logos as a company and trust that they will take our concerns seriously. The bottom line is this: The fact that you are having a problem is a problem. The fact that many people are having similar problems is an even greater problem. Users can afford to treat others dismissively, but Logos if they want to stay in business cannot. We are not a bunch of crazies to be made fun of and called names; we are paying customers who have legitimate concerns.

I also want to remind you that the behavior of some beta testers is not representative of all. Most have been very helpful and have understood that people’s frustrations have perhaps made them state things more strongly than they should have. I know that my frustration caused me to do so and I am grateful to those who where understanding enough to overlook some of my words and see the real underlying issues. Please note that some of the responses you have received so far are honest attempt to help you.

.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/43035#Comment_43035

I just think that it was released with too much not right, and it's causing a fair bit of frustration in places. But I think that the development team needs our support to have time to (hopefully) address these, even though the product seems to have been released too early.

Well said - my thoughts as well.

I wonder - those of us who migrated from 3.x are already on-board with Logos, so to speak. But how will someone who's completely new to the product react to the current state of things? I really hope that this doesn't backfire on Logos.

Blessings,

Jim D.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/43043#Comment_43043

the idea of a typing-based interface as the only option for some things is baffling.

is entering references the main thing you find typing is necessary?

I'm struggling to see the points David made as true. You can display a simple, bar bones interface when you start up. He would never have to see the ribbon again. I don't see how entering text is any different then 3.0, though maybe its just because I preferred to enter them in manually rather then clicking drop-downs. It seems like F11 is exactly what he is talking about to fix the complaint he has with floating windows. If he prefers to scroll to his exact verse then in the bible pane simply show the table of contents and click on the chapter he wants.

Maybe he just caught a minute of frustration and put it on the forum. I've certainly done that. I was going to reply earlier with some suggestions but I really didn't get the idea that he was looking for suggestions to his problems, but rather his point was to stress how it was not designed for him. Again, I apologize if I read it wrong. There were a couple of questions there and if he would like some tips on how to do something, or yourself, I would be happy to give what advise I can, assuming I can find this thread again :-) I'm getting buried.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/43052#Comment_43052

I wonder - those of us who migrated from 3.x are already on-board with Logos, so to speak. But how will someone who's completely new to the product react to the current state of things? I really hope that this doesn't backfire on Logos.

A member of my congregation who is taking masters courses by correspondence purchased Platinum. He knows nothing of 3.0. He is blown away by the capabilities of the program. To him, he knows nothing of what is missing because he never had them before. He'll just be pleasantly surprised when they come :-)

David

I would like to have an idea of what level of computer jock and bible scholar you are. From my experience with LOGOS it is not for those who want to just read a verse or so once in an while and who have no sophistication with a computer. I have many friends to whom I would not recommend LOGOS for lack of computer savvy and/or time available. For those I tend to recommend e-sword, it's free (Windows only) or minimal cost ($29 to add the NIV, for example). It was designed to be very easy to use, there is a menu bar on the left where you can locate a book by pressing its abbreviation, when the abbreviation opens there is a list of chapters, press your chapter and you are there. The bibles in use are all in a tab at the top. It has user-defined study guides (linked to verses) and topic guides (not linked).

I can show a very unsophisticated user how to use e-sword to good effect in 30 min or so (depending on how long it takes to boot his computer). It can easily be downloaded and installed in another 30 min via high speed.

It took me several days of watching videos and practice to get to where I am with LOGOS 4, adequate but definitely not a competent expert. And I was fairly good with LOGOS 3 when I started (which, in retrospect, might have slowed me down ). Remember James 1:2-5 trials are a joy that gives you patience which leads to maturity. Pray for wisdom.

Edit: P.S. When I first tried to use LOGOS 4 I would have echoed David's remarks on these and MANY more aspects of the new release. Thankfully I did not think to post to this forum until I gave it a bit more of a trial. I think that LOGS is a fantastic resource for exegetical studies and for general Bible and theology study (I have tried/seen several others) . But it is not for everyone. RLP

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/43030#Comment_43030

What an ungracious response! Surely the gift of encouragement is not known among you and your supporters.

Ungracious?

How in the world is ungracious to suggest that rather than cry about what piece of crap this software is that he just "get his money back and buy what he wants?"

It seems very infantile to come to a message board and INSTEAD OF ASKING FOR HELP to use phrases like:

Loaded with extranous crap

It rarely does what i want

It's arduous and could take weeks or even months

befuddled with insessant busy-ness

typing to navigate is a failure

receptacle for unwanted junk mail

I have no idea what it is nor do I care.

I don't have time to read someones reading plan

whiz bang is far outweighed by whiff...

Not only does that not sound like an adult who's speaking, it's not anything thats either constructive nor is it an actual question about how to do certain things that he needs to get done...

HENCE MY SUGGESTION to get something that would fulfill his expectations....

From what I see, there is one person who is not being very charitable but it's not me.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/43050#Comment_43050

There are some things that just don’t work well in this program, the help file is incomplete and it runs slow on even the best computers. All the “rah-rah this is the greatest thing since sliced bread” talk will not change these facts.

I agree with these points as weaknesses and still think L4 is the best Bible software I have ever used.

I also want to remind you that the behavior of some beta testers is not representative of all.

I will stick up a bit for Bob here. If you ask a question in a tone that comes across as wanting an answer, He is more then happy to give one to the best of his knowledge. Granted, his knowledge is small, but about 10% of the time he's actually quite pleasant. :-)

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/43061#Comment_43061

Granted, his knowledge is small, but about 10% of the time he's actually quite pleasant. :-)

And you thought I'd just let that go? [;)]

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/43057#Comment_43057

I wonder - those of us who migrated from 3.x are already on-board with Logos, so to speak. But how will someone who's completely new to the product react to the current state of things? I really hope that this doesn't backfire on Logos.

A member of my congregation who is taking masters courses by correspondence purchased Platinum. He knows nothing of 3.0. He is blown away by the capabilities of the program. To him, he knows nothing of what is missing because he never had them before. He'll just be pleasantly surprised when they come :-)

Phil,

I'm really, really glad to hear that. I hope that's consistent across the new user community. I really want Logos to succeed.

Jim D.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/43047#Comment_43047

David,

here's an idea...get a refund and save the frustration....

Ouch - certainly no hint of Charity here. A little tolerance and understanding is, I think, not an unreasonable expectation..

Jim,

what's not charitable about the most sensible solution to his problem?

He spent 3 paragraphs talking about how Logos wasn't floating his boat....

I suggested rather than keep wearing those ill fitting shoes and complaining....why not buy a pair of shoes you'd be happy with?

It might have been A LITTLE different had he said:

"I'm new to logos and I'm a little frustrated...I need to do these X amount of things and I cannot seem to find out how to do them....can someone help?"

That sure is a looooonnnggg way from the tone and content of his post...is it not? How about charity begins at home post?

Robert,

Well, for starters, since very few of David's concerns/criticisms/complaints are either unique or unjustified, I'd say his comments were well written and showed he'd given considerable thought to his post.

And chasing frustrated users away from the product is hardly helpful - it's not good for Logos, that's certain. You'd better hope that all of us wearing those ill-fitting shoes find a way to get comfortable, else the shoe store may find wolves at its doors.

Wow, can I lob adjectives and metaphors, or what?

Peace,

Jim D.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/43071#Comment_43071

Jim,

Ok..I'll try and be as clear as I can be.

If a child sat and cried about how his toy didn't work right instead of getting help, what would you say?

The fact is...he was uncharitable in his tone towards Logos WHETHER OR NOT his complaints were valid...AND INSTEAD OF SEEKING ANSWERS OR HELP...he chose to complain and whine.

I merely suggested that he might like to do something that made sense given his statements about it being crap and all.

Should I have put a smiley after my suggestion?

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/43071#Comment_43071

since very few of David's concerns/criticisms/complaints are either unique or unjustified, I'd say his comments were well written and showed he'd given considerable thought to his post.

I'm having a hard time coming up with a complaint from David's post that does not have a very viable solution in L4. Could you give an example of one that has no reasonable L4 solution?

Frederick Schaffner

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/43071#Comment_43071

The more Logos succeeds in meeting customers needs, complaints, etc. the better this program will become and that will beneft all of us. I held on to Logos 2 for way too long before I went to Logos 3 and I have regretted I didn't up much earlier. When I went to Logos 3 a couple of years ago I was overwhelmed with what it did, and then when I found out what it could do by going through tutorials, even a MP Seminar, I was even more overwhelmed.

L4 is much like that step from L2 to L3 and this software has the promise of even more capability. I love L3 but I want to be as effective with the scriptures as I can and I am trusting that L4 will make that even more possible.

Thanks for all the help I have received on the forum topics as well.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/43060#Comment_43060

Ungracious?

How in the world is ungracious to suggest that rather than cry about what piece of crap this software is that he just "get his money back and buy what he wants?"

It seems very infantile to come to a message board and INSTEAD OF ASKING FOR HELP to use phrases like:

Loaded with extranous crap

It rarely does what i want

It's arduous and could take weeks or even months

befuddled with insessant busy-ness

typing to navigate is a failure

receptacle for unwanted junk mail

I have no idea what it is nor do I care.

I don't have time to read someones reading plan

whiz bang is far outweighed by whiff...

Not only does that not sound like an adult who's speaking, it's not anything thats either constructive nor is it an actual question about how to do certain things that he needs to get done...

HENCE MY SUGGESTION to get something that would fulfill his expectations....

From what I see, there is one person who is not being very charitable but it's not me.

Bob,

I think you need to take a deep breath and step back a bit. David's comments and criticisms, ill-phrased or not, were not directed at you. They were directed at a product he's dissatisfied with. You've responded with criticisms which clearly are directed at him, personally. You don't (or should not) have feelings to bruise in this.

Jim D.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/43083#Comment_43083

Jim,

Here is a good example of what I'm talking about. this is taken from another current thread.

Quoting Tom:
Would someone please explain in step-by-step detail how to hyperlink a word or phrase contained in an L4 note that has been created, to a book source or Bible passage within the L4 library?

As opposed to this method:
"this software is a real piece of junk....the hyperlink capability is crap! It doesn't do anything that I want! I tried hyper link and it just won't. Logos really dropped the ball on this one...instead of wow....I got snooze!!

Now which one sounds like an adult wrote it?

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/43083#Comment_43083

Bob,

I think you need to take a deep breath and step back a bit. David's comments and criticisms, ill-phrased or not, were not directed at you. They were directed at a product he's dissatisfied with. You've responded with criticisms which clearly are directed at him, personally. You don't (or should not) have feelings to bruise in this.

Jim D.

Jim,

my feelings aren't bruised nor are they hurt..

Now are his comments "well articulated" or are they "ill phrased"?

I keep pointing out that he had two choices...do something constructive OR complain in a less than adult manner.

I wouldn't even have had it go farther except that somehow you thought that my suggestion to buy another more suitable product was "uncharitable" and personally directed at me.

Who needs to take a breath?

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/43094#Comment_43094

Tom's question part two (from the other thread)

And so our friend "Tom" from the other thread I mentioned above...get's a "less than smooth" workaround for cutting and pasting in V4....

Does he rant? Does he call the software names?

No....this is his response to a very lengthy workaround....

Quoting Tom"

Philip,

Thanks so much for taking your time to respond to me regarding hyperlinking. I am in the middle of studying for final exams right now, but later this evening I will give your instructions a try. On the surface, however, it looks like a rather lengthy process just to create a hyperlink within the Logos 4 notes file. It seemed very easy and quick with L3. Is hyperlinking something that is still being perfected and worked on for Logos 4? Regardless, I will go through your steps later tonight and see if it works for me. I'll let you know, but thanks again for your time to help me out.

Tom

Now that's the way to voice an opinion and ask a question...nicely done Tom.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/43050#Comment_43050

Be assured you are not the only person that has found L4’s initial release less than impressive. Everything you have mentioned others had pointed out as well. In addition, some of the problems are not just that you don’t have a new enough computer or because you have not read every single forum post or watched every video or that you are too tied to how L3 worked. There are some things that just don’t work well in this program, the help file is incomplete and it runs slow on even the best computers. All the “rah-rah this is the greatest thing since sliced bread” talk will not change these facts.

There is some truth to what you say, because L4 is still a work in progress. Much needs to be completed (For me particularly the notes are inadequate). As one of the beta testers I didn't do as much testing as what others did since notes are a sine qua non. At first the morphology search was totally inadequate though that has been considerably improved (still not sure I care for the new method though). In the beta testing there was no help file at all so that is somewhat improved even though it needs more work. That said, part of your complaint is baseless. L4 is not at all slow. It is very responsive. I enjoy the home page though I think some of the items could be rotated through the pages more rapidly. I never used the home page at all in L3. I also enjoy some of the new features which I understand require at least the minimum upgrade. The "Biblical Places" have some terrific maps which are about a 10,000% improvement over those in L3. The "tours" are interesting though I think they might grow old if overused. I really like the "Float this Panel" option since I can have a book open in that strictly for reading while I study in the main window.

The key item needed with L4 is patience -- patience on our part. I'm confident Logos will get this working properly. A number of us in the beta testing group thought they were rushing it out the door a bit early, but I'm sure they have their own reasons for having done so. I've heard it about 365 times already, but I will repeat it once again: "Don't forget that in the meantime you can still use L3."

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/43094#Comment_43094

Jim,

my feelings aren't bruised nor are they hurt..

Now are his comments "well articulated" or are they "ill phrased"?

I keep pointing out that he had two choices...do something constructive OR complain in a less than adult manner.

I wouldn't even have had it go farther except that somehow you thought that my suggestion to buy another more suitable product was "uncharitable" and personally directed at me.

Who needs to take a breath?

Apparently, I do. Continuing this discussion is serving no purpose. You're right, the rest of us are wrong. I honestly didn't realize that expressing ones frustration with a product in blunt language was a sign of being less than an adult. Thanks for enlightening me.

David should just ask for his money back from Logos, and give it to another software company. I'm sure they'll be happy to welcome an unhappy former Logos user.

Jim D.

Bohuslav Wojnar

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/43074#Comment_43074

Jim,

Ok..I'll try and be as clear as I can be.

If a child sat and cried about how his toy didn't work right instead of getting help, what would you say?

The fact is...he was uncharitable in his tone towards Logos WHETHER OR NOT his complaints were valid...AND INSTEAD OF SEEKING ANSWERS OR HELP...he chose to complain and whine.

I merely suggested that he might like to do something that made sense given his statements about it being crap and all.

Should I have put a smiley after my suggestion?

Robert, I agree with all you said 100%. The interesting thing to me is, what makes those who are feeling your first post as inappropriate, or lacking charity, not seeing the really bad tone of the initial post which started this thread,? It is not a rocket science. It is very simple. Isn't it measuring with the unequal meter, as we say in Czech?

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/43115#Comment_43115

It is not a rocket science. It is very simple. Isn't it measuring with the unequal meter, as we say in Czech?

Bohuslav,

Well said brother....you have a way of putting things [:D]

Randall Hartman

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/43115#Comment_43115

I too echo Robert's sentiments. In my judgment he spoke plainly and the advice was good: if you are that frustrated just get your money back and use another program. I don't see that as inflammatory. Robert has always gone out of his way to help those who really want help. His wise contributions to this forum are invaluable.

The particular issue I have in mind right now is the "ribbon" on the home page. To me it's like a recepticle for unwanted junk mail. I have picked my prefered bible: NASB. That's never going to change, so I want the "CHOOSE YOUR PREFERED BIBLE!!!" to disappear...forever. The box next to that...I have no idea what it is or why it is and don't care...but it keeps inviting me to read mess I don't care about, like a Catholic Lectionary. I want it to disappear too. I don't have time nor interest in "Reading Plans"...I want that to disappear. And I don't have near enough time to read the thousands of things I want to read, much less someone-I-don't-know's "Reading List"...so I want that unwanted suggestion to go "bye-bye" as well. The whole ribbon should be blank as a fresh sheet of paper...and stay that way. How do I make that happen?

If the whole ribbon were blank and stayed that way, it would be a waste of real estate. Think of Logos as a 1 room school - yes, we had 3 rooms for 8 grades but I had classmates who had started in a 1 room school house. Should the 5th graders complain because the printing charts are up for the 1st graders? Should the 7th graders complain about the world history timeline because they are studying American History? Should the 1st graders complain about the multiplication tables because they don't understand them?

The analogy is that the ribbon should have a set of items that put needed features in the hands of the users - users may use none, any or all of them depending upon their needs. Those who don't need them should not bother to look at them - they require no action on their part.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/43127#Comment_43127

Suggesting a disgruntled customer to get a refund.... that doesn't seem like an "over the top" rude response to me. Actually makes a little sense....

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/43111#Comment_43111

You're right, the rest of us are wrong.

Perhaps you have not followed this thread very well. It seems that most of those who posted agreed with Robert. I have remained a lurker until now, but I have agreed with every remark Robert has made in this discussion. A few of you ("the rest of us") took it upon yourselves to teach Robert a lesson in charity.

IMHO If anyone has been uncharitable in this discussion, it is you.

Jack

[Y]

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/43103#Comment_43103

There is some truth to what you say, because L4 is still a work in progress. Much needs to be completed (For me particularly the notes are inadequate). As one of the beta testers I didn't do as much testing as what others did since notes are a sine qua non. At first the morphology search was totally inadequate though that has been considerably improved (still not sure I care for the new method though). In the beta testing there was no help file at all so that is somewhat improved even though it needs more work. That said, part of your complaint is baseless. L4 is not at all slow. It is very responsive. I enjoy the home page though I think some of the items could be rotated through the pages more rapidly. I never used the home page at all in L3. I also enjoy some of the new features which I understand require at least the minimum upgrade. The "Biblical Places" have some terrific maps which are about a 10,000% improvement over those in L3. The "tours" are interesting though I think they might grow old if overused. I really like the "Float this Panel" option since I can have a book open in that strictly for reading while I study in the main window.

The key item needed with L4 is patience -- patience on our part. I'm confident Logos will get this working properly. A number of us in the beta testing group thought they were rushing it out the door a bit early, but I'm sure they have their own reasons for having done so. I've heard it about 365 times already, but I will repeat it once again: "Don't forget that in the meantime you can still use L3."

George,

I too like the home page, the maps and the floating panel. I have not tried the tours out yet. I like how you can set up reading plans for books other than bibles. I like how book management is done now. I like how you can create custom guides. I like the clipping. In other words, there is much to like. However, L4 can grind to a hault as it tries to update user changes. For example I was prioritizing books the other day and the program became totally unusable as it was updating. I am not a fast typest, but when I type a note as the system updates the program cannot keep up. Yes I do know I can turn off the use of the internet, but "out of the box" L4 can become unresponsive because of this.

I agree that patence is needed and I because of the way Logos has treated me in the past I trust them to get things right. I just hope that the responses of some in this forum to frustrated users doesn't push them away from the product.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/43205#Comment_43205

Yes I do know I can turn off the use of the internet, but "out of the box" L4 can become unresponsive because of this.

Throughout the Beta, we had the ability to simply turn off syncing: "Set sync to off".

This was removed with the first Release Candidate.

I have since asked numerous times for the return of this ability. I often have to turn off the internet on my netbook to avoid the constant syncing which renders the program unusable.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/43210#Comment_43210

I am not "in love" with Logos 4 - it's a piece of software for crying out loud.

A quick search of my history will tell people that I believe the release of v4 should have been delayed.

I have offered comprehensive critiques of some of the programs functionality, or lack thereof.

I have worked hard with disgruntalled or confused new users to help them understand what can and can't be done or even just to get the program to work.

I have tussled with Robert since the beginning of the Beta [:)] and have not always thought that his way of responding to frustrated users is the most helpful.

BUT, the original poster has only posted comments on this forum describing the program or its function with synonyms like "crap". I too say that anyone who thinks that v4 is a piece of c**p would be better off getting a refund.

If anyone would like assistance with how to do things: please keep it short; please keep it precise; please number your difficulties/issues so that they can be answered in a logical manner.

If you don't like something, just say it. Or even, search for a thread where users have already expressed their concerns or criticisms and add a +1 or "Agreed!"

The particular issue I have in mind right now is the "ribbon" on the home page. To me it's like a recepticle for unwanted junk mail. I have picked my prefered bible: NASB. That's never going to change, so I want the "CHOOSE YOUR PREFERED BIBLE!!!" to disappear...forever. The box next to that...I have no idea what it is or why it is and don't care...but it keeps inviting me to read mess I don't care about, like a Catholic Lectionary. I want it to disappear too. I don't have time nor interest in "Reading Plans"...I want that to disappear. And I don't have near enough time to read the thousands of things I want to read, much less someone-I-don't-know's "Reading List"...so I want that unwanted suggestion to go "bye-bye" as well. The whole ribbon should be blank as a fresh sheet of paper...and stay that way. How do I make that happen?

While I do not agree with most of David's assessment of Logos 4 (as I am a huge fan), I have been hollering for this since the first week of beta testing. It really bugs me to no end.

Jerry

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/43222#Comment_43222

The particular issue I have in mind right now is the "ribbon" on the home page. To me it's like a recepticle for unwanted junk mail. I have picked my prefered bible: NASB. That's never going to change, so I want the "CHOOSE YOUR PREFERED BIBLE!!!" to disappear...forever. The box next to that...I have no idea what it is or why it is and don't care...but it keeps inviting me to read mess I don't care about, like a Catholic Lectionary. I want it to disappear too. I don't have time nor interest in "Reading Plans"...I want that to disappear. And I don't have near enough time to read the thousands of things I want to read, much less someone-I-don't-know's "Reading List"...so I want that unwanted suggestion to go "bye-bye" as well. The whole ribbon should be blank as a fresh sheet of paper...and stay that way. How do I make that happen?

While I do not agree with most of David's assessment of Logos 4 (as I am a huge fan), I have been hollering for this since the first week of beta testing. It really bugs me to no end.

Jerry

Drag the unwanted items to the far right then create a reading plan for BHS and NA27 and shove the unwanted item off the screen.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/43123#Comment_43123

I too echo Robert's sentiments. In my judgment he spoke plainly and the advice was good: if you are that frustrated just get your money back and use another program. I don't see that as inflammatory. Robert has always gone out of his way to help those who really want help. His wise contributions to this forum are invaluable.

Many others have expressed frustrations with L4 on these forums in equally strong terms, and nobody as far as I can recall (though I haven't read every single thread here) has told them to go get a refund and stop trying to get help with their frustrations (i.e., get off these forums with your complaints). The terse way it was said made Robert's response come across as rude, even though his intent might have truly been to help David. Indeed Robert has been exceedingly helpful in this forum and his nature is not to be rude. But he could have phrased his reply differently and avoided all the charges that he was being uncharitable: for example, "David, Logos isn't for everyone. It appears you have not been happy with it, but you can get your money back if it isn't meeting your needs." One shouldn't be blunt about offering that sort of help to someone, regardless of how childish one might feel the original post was.

Furthermore, David has been telling us he has ADD (and reiterated that in his initial post here). So his frustrations with the product might be even more difficult for him to overcome than ours are. And his ability to stay focused on the point of posting here (to get help) might have been compromised, allowing him to ramble on with his complaints more than most people would. Of all people we should try to gently encourage over the initial distaste for the product, which many of us had, David is one of the most deserving of our patience, as one of the "weaker brothers."

Matthew C Jones

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/43244#Comment_43244

Many others have expressed frustrations with L4 on these forums in equally strong terms, and nobody as far as I can recall (though I haven't read every single thread here) has told them to go get a refund and stop trying to get help with their frustrations (i.e., get off these forums with your complaints).

Uh, In the thread titled "Sync Feature via Email & Password... " I just told Ariyl to go get a refund. But it had more to do with violating the EULA than anything else.

The original post in this thread did not actually ask for help. Robert could have ignored it. But is was a bit bold. When you stand up and shout sometimes you get smacked back down. Some pilots don't belong in the cockpit of a 757. Likewise some software users, my wife included, find Bible Gateway easier to navigate. I am still discovering the possibilities of Logos 4. I like to explore & experiment. Some users want everything tidy & predictable. That is why I hope Logos keeps Version 3 available alongside Version 4.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/43244#Comment_43244

Furthermore, Robert has been telling us he has ADD (and reiterated that in his initial post here). So his frustrations with the product might be even more difficult for him to overcome than ours are. And his ability to stay focused on the point of posting here (to get help) might have been compromised, allowing him to ramble on with his complaints more than most people would. Of all people we should try to gently encourage over the initial distaste for the product, which many of us had, Robert is one of the most deserving of our patience, as one of the "weaker brothers."

Rosie, I wasn't aware that Robert had ADD until you mentioned it here, and he indeed is most deserving of our patience[:D]

However, you have mistaken Robert for David in this paragraph!

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/43254#Comment_43254

Rosie, I wasn't aware that Robert had ADD until you mentioned it here, and he indeed is most deserving of our patience

However, you have mistaken Robert for David in this paragraph!

Oops, good catch. I've corrected it in my original post. If you want to delete your reply and then I'll delete this one, though amusing to see the history of my goof, so I don't need to you do that. Thanks for doing this correction with a smile.[:)]

Lynden O. Williams

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/43191#Comment_43191

Lets get back on the topic. David, can you give us your computer specs. The help file is quick and snappy for me.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/43244#Comment_43244

But he could have phrased his reply differently and avoided all the charges that he was being uncharitable: for example, "David, Logos isn't for everyone. It appears you have not been happy with it, but you can get your money back if it isn't meeting your needs."

Rosie,

You are probably right. I apologize to David for being that blunt. It was a reaction to his tone and I could have phrased it better or added a smiley.

bob

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