Will There Be Improvements?

Paul Golder

I'm running on a dual core at 2.6 gig, with 4 gig of RAM, and program response is at best sluggish.

Will there be code optimization, and improvements in program speed in the future?

Don't get me wrong, it is very usable, but it just doesn't feel "snappy"

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Mitch Davis

Paul,

Not sure about you but when I use my 2.20 GHz Intel Core 2 Duo it runs "snappy". On my desktop (P4 2.8 GHz), it is almost as quick (albeit, slower than the laptop) as my v. 3.

DominicM

I'm running it on a 1.6ghz Atom, and its not sluggish here, but Logos is a continually evolving product, so without hesitation I can answer yes, as have seen it all the was from logos 1 (dos) through to tadye each update improved things, am sure you wont be dissapointed

Jon

It shouldn't be sluggish with that setup, the program has already been extensively optimised during the beta process.

If you look at the task manager -> performance tab, or resource monitor is there anything else chewing up CPU/memory? Is the indexer still running?

Paul Golder

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/25724#Comment_25724

I'm going to try the proverbial "Windows restart", and see if it improves. I'll post how it does.

Thanks,

Paul

Paul Golder

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/25737#Comment_25737

My mistake, I had forgotten that this machine only has 2 gig of RAM, that is most likely the limitation I am coming up against.

Thanks

Rich DeRuiter

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/25759#Comment_25759

My mistake, I had forgotten that this machine only has 2 gig of RAM, that is most likely the limitation I am coming up against.

Thanks

Yes, Logos4 shines with a high-end computer. Gone are the days when only gamers needed all the bells and whistles. Logos really hums with a very large, non-partitioned hard drive, lots of RAM and a video card that's above mid-level. Though it can't do multi-threading, and is not a 64bit application, it does better on multi-core processors and more than 4GB of RAM (32bit windows cannot take advantage of 4MB RAM or above). Some complex searches seem to work faster on machines with greater processing power and RAM as well.

With very large libraries, speed increases will probably be noticeable when the hard drive is defragmented - particularly indexing.

On the other hand, even with the best machines, Logos4 will be slower while it's indexing. When the Logos server is being heavily used, loading the homepage and synchronizing will slow down (but this should diminish in the next few days).

TCBlack

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/25772#Comment_25772

(but this should diminish in the next few days).

Unfounded optimism Richard. [;)]

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/25772#Comment_25772

Richard it would be interesting to see some comparisons of program load times, search times, and indexing on "high end" pcs compared to older hardware. My own assumption is that you are not going to see a huge difference.

High end video cards and multi core processors are nice but I wouldn't be surprised if the super-duper gaming rig with a HDD were outpaced by an older machine with a fast SSD and just 2 gigs of RAM.

Rich DeRuiter

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/25831#Comment_25831

Richard it would be interesting to see some comparisons of program load times, search times, and indexing on "high end" pcs compared to older hardware. My own assumption is that you are not going to see a huge difference.

High end video cards and multi core processors are nice but I wouldn't be surprised if the super-duper gaming rig with a HDD were outpaced by an older machine with a fast SSD and just 2 gigs of RAM.

I can only go on my comparison with my low-end laptop and high-end desktop (both from Dell), and from reports from folks in the beta using older computers and netbooks. Indexing is one area where it seemed the more you had, the faster it worked.

I should be clear that Logos4 runs fine on systems that meet it's minimum spec's. It will even run on some systems that don't quite meet those spec's (no guarantees). But it seems to me L4 does take advantage of better, faster, more technology. L4 doesn't seem to use more than 2GB of RAM, at least I haven't caught it doing that. But how many people don't have a few dozen processes running in the background (without their knowledge), let alone an anti-virus program and Google or Windows desktop, and who knows what. Any time the machine writes to the paging file, something slows down. So more RAM benefits the OS (and all it manages), and so indirectly benefits L4 usage.

It would be interesting, though, to do some bench-mark testing on this and find out exactly what hardware L4 needs to run optimally. Of course it would have to be exactly the same setup for each machine. And even home users with 3 machines, probably don't have the exact same setup on any of them. While L4 would be the same, background tasks, services, etc. can vary greatly.

BTW, I look forward to the day when SSD's fully replace HDD's. I don't think we're there yet - there are problems with the number of rewrites most SSD's can handle (suggesting a useful life still lower than most HDD's). But that's getting off-topic and everyone knows how much I hate that!

Scott S

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/25772#Comment_25772

Yes, Logos4 shines with a high-end computer. Gone are the days when only gamers needed all the bells and whistles. Logos really hums with a very large, non-partitioned hard drive, lots of RAM and a video card that's above mid-level. Though it can't do multi-threading, and is not a 64bit application, it does better on multi-core processors and more than 4GB of RAM (32bit windows cannot take advantage of 4MB RAM or above). Some complex searches seem to work faster on machines with greater processing power and RAM as well.

Rich,

I'm trying to plan for a successful install and operation of Logos 4. How much post-install hard drive free space (in Gigs, not %) will allow for optimal Logos 4 performance?

If it is not a burden, perhaps you could expand on a few of your other points:

1. Why is a non-partitioned hard drive preferred?

2. Why is an "above mid-level" video card helpful, does it off-load some tasks from the CPU?

3. Why is hard drive free space often discussed in terms of % instead of Gigs? (I remember the old Newsgroup discussion about keeping free space above 30%, but given the large differences in drive capacity, it didn't seem that % was the best way to look at it.)

Thanks in advance,

Scott

DominicM

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/25863#Comment_25863

1) if the PC is woking on both partitions, access time will be slower both for reading and writing.

2) havent founf that with my netbook, my intel 940 is a basic card but handles logos4 well, you may get quicker draw spped and more frills with a better card

3) thats like asking how long a bit of string, I would say minimum 20gb space before installing L4, 30 would be better

Rich DeRuiter

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/25863#Comment_25863

Rich,

I'm trying to plan for a successful install and operation of Logos 4. How much post-install hard drive free space (in Gigs, not %) will allow for optimal Logos 4 performance?

I'm not a complete geek, more of a half-informed aficionado. So I'll probably be corrected by someone who's more informed.

I really don't know the answer to your question. The more resources you have the more you'll need. Couple this with whatever paging file requirements the process will take and it makes it hard to predict a minimum requirement. I know it will be in the multi-Gigabyte range. Information at http://www.logos.com/support/faq shows that Logos' minimum requirement is 12GB. It will install with that much free before the install.

1. Why is a non-partitioned hard drive preferred?

For a couple of reasons. First, partitioning is no longer necessary. Old operating systems couldn't handle large hard drives and so partitioning became the norm for some computer geeks, and strategies were developed to create an OS partition to help keep it optimized and keep other stuff out. Another problem was that file cluster size could be diminished with smaller partitions. So partitioning was supposed to save some hard drive space. The strategies didn't always produce measurable results, but some, even today, swear by them. Nowadays, to have a signle full Terabyte C:drive without any partition is not uncommon.

A reason to not partition is that first, there is no real reason to do it anymore. Modern OS's can easily handle any consumer level hard drive. Second, most programs to not install by default to anything but the primary drive. While you can get around this (usually), it means that your tech support is going to always have to take into account a non-default installation. Further, some programs don't ask/don't tell that they only install onto the primary drive. So you'll always have to have some space on your OS partition that takes that into account anyway.

2. Why is an "above mid-level" video card helpful, does it off-load some tasks from the CPU?

I'm not fully sure why this is. It may be the nature of the OS (from XP on, but more so with Vista and Win7). There is a lot more going on in the video display than ever before. A dedicated video card (vs. integrated video) unloads CPU time, freeing up more CPU for other program operations. I picked above mid-level sort of arbitrarily (who gets to decide what is 'mid-level' anyway?), but did want to emphasize that a half-Gig (512MB) of video RAM, or more will allow L4's display to work with room to spare. This is really an OS issue, but also relates to how the program infrastructure displays information on the screen. And that's what we want, right? We want to see the results, not just know they are there.

I notice some really nice things about the way L4 works. If you click the (i) on the resource tab, the page seems to 'flip.' If you've got a study open and click on the home page, it seems to 'slide' out of the way. Those are video intensive operations. All the displaying of multiple fonts, graphics, pop-ups, etc. require video time (some more than others, of course), and as L4 develops I'm sure it will not back down, but probably increase it's video output requirements.

3. Why is hard drive free space often discussed in terms of % instead of Gigs? (I remember the old Newsgroup discussion about keeping free space above 30%, but given the large differences in drive capacity, it didn't seem that % was the best way to look at it.)

Good question. I'm not really sure of the entire answer, but part of the answer has to do with disk optimization. For you to defrag your hard drive, the information has to be moved around and rearranged, physically, on the disk. If you don't have enough, by percentage, to do that, it won't be able to defrag completely, or it will take interminably long to do so. I'm not aware of any other reason to measure it this way, but it is a common way of talking.

With the price of hard drives these days, if you're going to upgrade your hard drive, I'd say look at what you are using now and buy a hard drive that is at least double your current requirements (some would say triple).

Once more Logos will run on the minimum spec's it says without problem. I think Logos runs better with more RAM, faster bigger HD's, i7 CPU (or better?), and mid-level Video or better. But I'm no expert, just an aficionado. So if the experts chime in, listen to them over me. Better yet, do your own research and make up your own mind.

Greg Gray

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/25911#Comment_25911

I have not been overly impressed with the "snappiness" of V4, but one thing that helped on my system was to exclude the Libronix directory from being scanned by resident shield on my anti virus program. This made a noticeable difference on some things. I still find it annoying that when I click on a word in my Bible I have to wait a second for the word to be highlighted in the Interlinear.

I'm also planning to pick up a ssd in the near future to see how that improves things.

Bob Pritchett

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/25772#Comment_25772

Though it can't do multi-threading,

Actually, Logos is multi-threaded, and will take advantage of modern processors with more cores.

Memory is also a big help.

Rich DeRuiter

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/26204#Comment_26204

Actually, Logos is multi-threaded, and will take advantage of modern processors with more cores.

I did not know that (obviously).

There are times that I am so pleased to be wrong. This is one of them. Very, very cool.

Scott S

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/25911#Comment_25911

Rich,

Wow, thanks for the meaty reply.

The “more than mid-level” video requirements make more
sense given the nature of Vista/7. I’m
still running XP.

Pictures, audio, and video continually put a squeeze on
my notebook hard drive free space, so I use those nifty external hard drives
for archiving to keep 20-30g open on my C drive.

Thanks again,

Scott

P.S. Thanks also to Dominic

Rich DeRuiter

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/26246#Comment_26246

Wow, thanks for the meaty reply.

You're welcome. I think a lot of this stuff applies to folks who want to increase their enjoyment of L4 by upgrading or replacing their current computer.

You've got a laptop (I do too). You might consider upgrading the hard drive for it (if it's not too old). Laptops rarely last more than 4 years, unless they stay on a (literal) desktop. But an external hard drive is a good way to go, particularly for user files: documents, music, video, pictures, etc.

Peter Junor

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/26308#Comment_26308

It is good to find gentle souls who can guide those of us who are not of the technocrati!

Having played around with Logos 4.0 for a bit - I am wondering if its time to upgrade the 'old girl' - so can I check with you the truth of the following presumption I have drawn from suggestions advanced in this thread...

Going to a dual (or Multi) core CPU (from my single core AMD processor) is definitely a step up & reasonable investment, because the software is built to take advantage of this capacity???

1.5GB of RAM will not bring a lot of joy - better to go to 3 or 4 with a multi core, if I am going to make an upgrade investment??

XP is fine, but WIN 7 will bring the most out of the software.

Better quality video cards also help performance. AND, Later model HDD's will perform better than older ones..

Is that about the size of it?

Rich DeRuiter

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/43287#Comment_43287

Is that about the size of it?

At this point there is uneven experiences with Logos4 with a wide variety of systems. By and large quad cores do better than dual cores, Win7 does better than Vista or XP, dedicated graphics cards with 512MB video RAM and up, as well as 3.2GB of RAM with a 32bit opperating system, and 6GB or more on a 64bit OS, tend to do better with Logos4 than other systems. But there seem to be other factors as well. Not all of these are understood.

I wish I could be more specific, but there doesn't seem to be too much that's predictable, except that older and underpowered systems just don't tend to do very well.

Glenn F

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/25831#Comment_25831

Richard it would be interesting to see some comparisons of program load times, search times, and indexing on "high end" pcs compared to older hardware. My own assumption is that you are not going to see a huge difference.

High end video cards and multi core processors are nice but I wouldn't be surprised if the super-duper gaming rig with a HDD were outpaced by an older machine with a fast SSD and just 2 gigs of RAM.

I bought a new laptop for Logos 4 because my old laptop was an antique. I now have.....

Intel i7 at 1.66 Ghz

6Gigs DDR3 Memory

500 Gig SATA 7200 RPM Hard drive

Geforce 230M 1 Gig Memory Video Card

Windows 7

I have not said before because I am not sure Exactly...what time I started indexing, but my indexing process with Scholars Silver and The Macarthur commentaries - Lifeworks 1 took approxiamately 2 hours no more than 3.

I think this being a pristine install with no more than minimal other programs, antivirus etc. installed before helped but after reading about other peoples woes with indexing I wondered if something went wrong. Everything seems to be fine and running snappily. I did run into a problem with Logos 4 open in the background and Paint Shop Pro X2 running doing some photo editing. PSP seemed to suffer some delays and Video driver stopped and W7 had to restart it.

They say hardware less than 2 years but I wonder if they meant less than 2 months? My old hardware would have had no hope of opening the L4 home page before I retired. Would like to hear more comparisons myself frompeople who may have bought new hardware just for Logos 4.

Donovan R. Palmer

I'm running on a dual core at 2.6 gig, with 4 gig of RAM, and program response is at best sluggish.

Will there be code optimization, and improvements in program speed in the future?

Don't get me wrong, it is very usable, but it just doesn't feel "snappy"

Paul, one thing you might do is check to see what else you have running on Windows. Particularly some brands of computers love to install a tonne of "extras" on Windows before they ship them to you. Each and every little thing eats resources. I tend to have a minimalist and stingy attitude with computer resources. Unless something is really, really needed, it doesn't get installed. I personally try to keep everything "stock" as much as possible.

I'm not saying this about your setup and I'm not demeaning your computer skills because you may have already done this, but I have gone into friends computers many times when they have had performance issues to find they had installed all sorts of freebees (weather apps, social applications, multiple chat platforms), tool bars, etc. When I prune it back to what they really need or even do a fresh install it is almost as if they got a new computer again.

That said, Vista for me has been nothing but trouble here. I have friends who on certain types of hardware have been happy with its performance, but for us it has been a huge disappointment. I haven't tried W7 yet. Which version of Windows are you using?

Anyhow, hope you find the source to your performance question.

Peter Junor

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/43297#Comment_43297

Richard, I appreciate the amount of posts you do - and am grateful for the careful reflections you make in your comments.

My tech guy took some time to look at this software and (agreeing with what you have written), also noted that L4 was keen to give a HDD a thorough work out - which could create a bottleneck limiting speed. He suggested - in building a new machine, employing two HDD's organized in RAID array, striped together. (...so two (or more) physical drives, but one logical drive) That way the searching could occur simultaneously across both HDD's rather than a sequential searching of only one drive. I confess I had no idea of what he was speaking about, until he explained it to me.

He also asked if there was a 64 bit - specific version of the software coming out, and if the programming was aiming at multi-threading tasks to make the optimum use of dual (or more) core machines. I looked at him rather blankly, i'm afraid...

Have you heard anything of this?

J. Morris

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/50425#Comment_50425

I have a HP Notebook: (2 1/2 yrs old)

1.80 GHz

AMD Turion 64 X2

2 G Ram

32 Bit

Vista

--------------------

L4 Is usable, but often sluggish.

Rich DeRuiter

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/50425#Comment_50425

He also asked if there was a 64 bit - specific version of the software coming out, and if the programming was aiming at multi-threading tasks to make the optimum use of dual (or more) core machines. I looked at him rather blankly, i'm afraid...

Have you heard anything of this?

According to Bob L4 does take advantage of multithreading processors. A good CPU does make a difference and L4 does very well in my i7 machine. AFAIK there is not a 64 bit version in the works, though I'd love to see one.

George Somsel

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/43297#Comment_43297

Is that about the size of it?

At this point there is uneven experiences with Logos4 with a wide variety of systems. By and large quad cores do better than dual cores, Win7 does better than Vista or XP, dedicated graphics cards with 512MB video RAM and up, as well as 3.2GB of RAM with a 32bit opperating system, and 6GB or more on a 64bit OS, tend to do better with Logos4 than other systems. But there seem to be other factors as well. Not all of these are understood.

I wish I could be more specific, but there doesn't seem to be too much that's predictable, except that older and underpowered systems just don't tend to do very well.

Ain't that the truth ! My dual core 2.4 GHz laptop with 6 Gb RAM is a lot snappier than my old Gateway AMD 1100. I let the cows out of the barn in the am and it's ready to use when they come home [No, I don't live on a farm -- that was a joke].

Kevin A. Purcell

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/43297#Comment_43297

A few things.

You are not imagining it. Logos is a little sluggish at times. It doesn't pop like other software.

But here is what I've done to help my system.

1. Drastic measure but I reformatted and reinstalled. Right after doing this someone suggested that clearing out the system's temp files would help. So some have run a program like CCleaner. I do now and it has kept Logos running moderately smoothly.

2. I upgraded to the latest beta and it is a little better than the public stable release. Of course it might introduce other problems so YMMV.

Edward hyndman

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/43297#Comment_43297

lol could turn out to be an expensive program upgrade [:)]