clause search using subject: verb:

Is there a way to do a "clause search" which would include a verb eg., "believes" and be inclusive of other uses of like words, such as "relies on", "trusts"?

How would it be composed doing a New Testament search for something like, subject:Paul verb:believes, so that all forms of "believes", it synonyms and tenses are included. Would a clause search, actually speaking, be the way to do it? thanks-

John

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Graham Criddle

Hi John - and welcome to the forums

Is there a way to do a "clause search" which would include a verb eg., "believes" and be inclusive of other uses of like words, such as "relies on", "trusts"?

How would it be composed doing a New Testament search for something like, subject:Paul verb:believes, so that all forms of "believes", it synonyms and tenses are included.

If you do such a clause search you get results like those shown below:

As you will see, the NRSV renders the underlying Greek word in a variety of ways including belief, faith, entrusted.

To get a wider range of results you would need the ability to be able to combine lemmas which - I believe - is coming but not available yet

What you could do is run multiple clause searches against the different verbs you are interested in, create a Passage List from each one and then merge the Lists to get the complete set. Details on this are available at http://wiki.logos.com/Passage_List

Would a clause search, actually speaking, be the way to do it?

I think this is probably the best way of doing it.

Hope this helps

Graham

Joe Mayden

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/448665#Comment_448665

Graham, I have The Greek New Testament: SBL Edition in my library and open. However when I attempt to do the search you show I do not get the SBL Edition as a selection. I get The Lexham Greek-English Interlinear New Testament; SBL Edition and Lexham Hebrew Bible.

When I attempt to do the search as you suggest; subject: paul verb:believe; trust - I get nothing.

If I don't add "trust" to the verb: just leave it believe (it replaces "believe" with "to believe") I get 10 hits.

Why am I not seeing "The Greek New Testament: SBL Edition" as a selection?

Thanks for your help!

Graham Criddle

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/448686#Comment_448686

Hi John

However when I attempt to do the search you show I do not get the SBL Edition as a selection. I get The Lexham Greek-English Interlinear New Testament; SBL Edition and Lexham Hebrew Bible.

I can't explain this - I thought the only versions available for Clause Search usage were the GNT:SBL and the LHB.

If I don't add "trust" to the verb: just leave it believe (it replaces "believe" with "to believe") I get 10 hits.

How are you actually constructing the search? I am not "adding trust" - I am selecting it from a drop-down menu as below:

Can you show a screenshot of how you are constructing yours?

Why am I not seeing "The Greek New Testament: SBL Edition" as a selection?

As above I don't know but I think there is something strange going on here!

Graham

NetworkGeek

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/448698#Comment_448698

This is weird - I only have the original 2 Greek/Hebrew resources and not The Greek New Testament: SBL Edition as well.

Graham are you on the beta?

Joe Mayden

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/448698#Comment_448698

Graham, thanks for the response. I don't get a selection: verb:believe, trust or verb:pretend, make believe

With subject: 'Paul' and verb:'believe' I get the following choices

'to believe'

'to disbelieve, to refuse to believe'

'to think, to consider, to believe'

and four other choices.

I don't get a choice: 'believe,trust'

also how can I take a picture to show you?

Thanks for your help!

Graham Criddle

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/448702#Comment_448702

This is weird - I only have the original 2 Greek/Hebrew resources and not The Greek New Testament: SBL Edition as well.

Apologies - looking back on earlier posts and discussions it appears that the translation I am seeing is not the normal one. The standard NT resource used was indeed the Lexham Greek-English Interlinear New Testament; SBL Edition.

Sorry about the confusion.

Graham are you on the beta?

Yes I am - it is possible this is the cause of the difference but there was nothing in the release notes to indicate this

Graham Criddle

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/448703#Comment_448703

Hi Joe

I don't get a selection: verb:believe, trust or verb:pretend, make believe

With subject: 'Paul' and verb:'believe' I get the following choices

'to believe'

'to disbelieve, to refuse to believe'

'to think, to consider, to believe'

and four other choices.

I expect this to be due to the different resource we are using - as per my earlier post I could have confused things here as it seems the text options I am seeing are not the same as in the shipping release.

Dominick - do you see the same options as Joe?

also how can I take a picture to show you?

Details for taking and uploading pictures are at http://wiki.logos.com/Screenshot

Graham

NetworkGeek

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/448716#Comment_448716

I just upgraded my backup Logos edition from production to latest beta, and the Home Page says Resources loaded:

Clauses Database: LGNTISBL Edition

Clauses Database: LHB Edition

Phrase Concordance Edition

And when I Clause search I no longer see LGNTI:SBL as a choice, I see SBLGNT which to me makes no sense since LGNTI:SBL was updated?

Maybe Bradley can comment on this, what's happening...?

Graham Criddle

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/448732#Comment_448732

Hi Dominick

Thanks for checking on this.

Looking in the log file I see entries like the one below which seems to be suggesting that the "preferred resource" for Clause Searches if the SBLGNTI which is, at least, consistent with what we are seeing.

2013-01-05 15:13:07.7066 1 Info PanelViewModel Applying panel settings for Preferences: BasicResourceProvider=All%7cTitle%3dEntire%2520Library|
BibleReferenceRange=|BibleResourceProvider=Single%7cResourceId%3dLLS:1.0.10|
ClauseReferenceRange=|ClauseResourceProvider=Single%7cResourceId%3dLLS:SBLGNT|
ExpandedStates=BibleVerseResultsViewModelHost%3dtrue%7cClearDefaults%3dtrue%7cLibraryResultsViewModel%3dtrue%7cMorphResultsViewModelHost%3dtrue%7cMyContentResultsViewModel%3dtrue%7cNewResourcesResultsViewModel%3dtrue%7cPersonalBookResultsViewModel%3dfalse%7cTopicResultsViewModel%3dfalse|MorphReferenceRange=|
MorphResourceProvider=Single%7cResourceId%3dLLS:1.0.50|
SearchKindName=ClauseSearch|SearchMode=Standard|
SelectedMorphology=lbs-morph+el|SyntaxReferenceRange=|SyntaxResourceProvider=Single%7cResourceId%3dDB:SYNTAX-CSGNTSBL

What I don't understand is what has happened to cause this change.

Maybe Bradley can comment on this, what's happening...?

That would be good!

Graham

Joe Mayden

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/448733#Comment_448733

Graham and Dominick, thanks for taking the time to look at things. I don't know why I don't have: The Greek New Testament: SBL Edition as an option to search in when I do a clause search, but I think you are right Graham, The Lexham Greek-English Interlinear New Testament: SBL Edition isn't indexed the same way.

Wonder why? How many Greek resources can you clause search in?

Also what screen shot do you work with and does it hand multiple monitors?

Bradley Grainger (Logos)

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/448698#Comment_448698

However when I attempt to do the search you show I do not get the SBL Edition as a selection. I get The Lexham Greek-English Interlinear New Testament; SBL Edition and Lexham Hebrew Bible.

I can't explain this - I thought the only versions available for Clause Search usage were the GNT:SBL and the LHB.

In 5.0b, the Clause Search DB (for the NT) has been changed to be based on SBLGNT rather than LGNTI:SBL. This explains the discrepancy in UI between your versions of Logos, but I don't know offhand if the DB has changed substantially to affect the results of searches.

Bradley Grainger (Logos)

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/449019#Comment_449019

I don't know offhand if the DB has changed substantially to affect the results of searches.

I found an old post (by me!) on the forums that hints at a change: http://community.logos.com/forums/p/60093/428833.aspx#428833

I don't recall the exact details, but I think that "verb:" is changing from searching the "Lexical Value" field to searching the lemma gloss, which makes the search "broader" and accounts for Graham's results. (But don't rely on my description of this change until someone who knows what they're talking about confirms this. [;)])

Rosie Perera

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/449020#Comment_449020

(But don't rely on my description of this change until someone who knows what they're talking about confirms this. )

If Bradley doesn't know what he's talking about, then we're all doomed! [:O]

David Paul

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/449024#Comment_449024

To my feeble mind, Clause Search seems to be the biggest and fanciest whiz-bang featurette of L5--very snazzy. It is also something I would trust about as far as I can throw it, and I can't even pick it up.

If I want to know what Paul said, I'll search the verb in quesiton and in the results I'll look at his epistles and Acts. Done.

Graham Criddle

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/449019#Comment_449019

Hi Bradley

In 5.0b, the Clause Search DB (for the NT) has been changed to be based on SBLGNT rather than LGNTI:SBL. This explains the discrepancy in UI between your versions of Logos, but I don't know offhand if the DB has changed substantially to affect the results of searches.

Thanks for that - that clears up this difference[:)]

Graham

Graham Criddle

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/449020#Comment_449020

Hi Bradley

I found an old post (by me!) on the forums that hints at a change: http://community.logos.com/forums/p/60093/428833.aspx#428833

I don't recall the exact details, but I think that "verb:" is changing from searching the "Lexical Value" field to searching the lemma gloss, which makes the search "broader" and accounts for Graham's results. (But don't rely on my description of this change until someone who knows what they're talking about confirms this. )

This is helpful - and it clears up one of the questions above[:)]

In the post you referenced you say:

The Clause Search engine essentially performs an exact text match using the text that follows "verb:", comparing that text against the full contents of the cell for the "English lexical value" line in the LGNTI Interlinear. The comma is not a search operator; it's part of the exact text match.

So "to say" doesn't match "to say, to tell" or "to speak, to say, to tell", because it's looking for exact string matches, not substrings.

One of the things we couldn't understand was why Joe didn't get the "verb:believe, trust " option as a search string but - just doing a search in the LGNTI:SBL it appears that this string doesn't appear.

Thanks Graham

Graham Criddle

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/448898#Comment_448898

Hi Joe

I don't know why I don't have: The Greek New Testament: SBL Edition as an option to search in when I do a clause search, but I think you are right Graham, The Lexham Greek-English Interlinear New Testament: SBL Edition isn't indexed the same way.

From what we now know - based on input from Bradley - there is a change in 5.0b which affects which text we see in the clause search

How many Greek resources can you clause search in?

Only one - and I am not sure if this will ever be extended

Also what screen shot do you work with and does it hand multiple monitors?

I use either Picpick or the Windows Snipping tool. It does capture images from either monitor (I have two). They would probably across both monitors but as my monitors are of different sizes that could cause confusion!

Graham

MJ. Smith

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/449027#Comment_449027

It is also something I would trust about as far as I can throw it, and I can't even pick it up.

Actually, the clause search is the one I am most able to verify the results on - they're not always the results I want but they are always the ones I asked for. I'm anxious to see if the modifications bring it closer to what I want.

I'm fairly certain that I can pick it up and throw it using my laptop. For my tower, I'd probably need to extract the hard drive to throw.[:P]

MJ. Smith

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/449020#Comment_449020

but I think that "verb:" is changing from searching the "Lexical Value" field to searching the lemma gloss

That would be the fast way to correct the problem that was causing so much misunderstanding. Or you could have offered us a choice in our parameters.[:)]

Graham Criddle

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/449037#Comment_449037

but I think that "verb:" is changing from searching the "Lexical Value" field to searching the lemma gloss

That would be the fast way to correct the problem that was causing so much misunderstanding. Or you could have offered us a choice in our parameters.

I agree with MJ that this should go a long way towards fixing the problem.

However, I can see at least one new problem[:)]

If people have stored any NT clause searches as favorites they will stop working after upgrading to 5.0b

I have just tested this by finding an old clause search in my history which would have worked properly against the LGNTI:SBL but when I try and run that search today GNT:SBL is automatically substituted and I get a red box around my search string.

Bradley - can we please ensure that this is documented appropriately in the release notes so people are aware of this?

Thanks, Graham

MJ. Smith

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/449043#Comment_449043

But what I'd REALLY like is the choice of gloss or sense[:D]

I can assure you that if you give me everything I really want (and, of course, think I need) you've got guaranteed employment for life.