Suggestion: Adjustment for minimum number of highlights for "popular highlights"
In its current form, the Popular Highlights feature is far too sensitive to be useful. It appears to work with as few as 5 people marking a book. This can create clutter, such as the following paragraph, where nearly every sentence is underlined.
I have 2 suggestions for how to make this display of popular highlights more meaningful and readable:
- Base the minimum number of highlights on the total number of users who have marked up a particular book or even a section of a book. So if 20 people mark up a book, I would not consider 5 users to be particularly "popular". This is only 25% of those who marked the book, so it is actually not very popular. I would want to see no less than 50% or perhaps even 75% users to consider a mark up "popular". So if 100 people marked up the books, if the threshold were set to 50%, at least 50 people would have to highlight a phrase to make it "popular". This dynamic popular highlighting would result in a more meaningful result than the present markup.
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Allow the user to specify in settings a minimum number of
highlights to display popular highlights. This could be a raw number of a
percentage. Perhaps the Settings could allow the following options for popular highlights: Automatic [default]; 90%; 75%; 65% 50%; 25%; Don't Display.
In addition, as I have suggested elsewhere, I would like a less obtrusive indicator of the number of highlights than "[5 highlights]". This seriously disrupts the readability of the text. A small, unobtrusive number would be better for reading.
Comments
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Harry Hahne said:
Base the minimum number of highlights on the total number of users who have marked up a particular book or even a section of a book.
It is already done this way...
Harry Hahne said:So if 20 people mark up a book, I would not consider 5 users to be particularly "popular". This is only 25% of those who marked the book, so it is actually not very popular.
If you think about it, it is pretty hard to get anyone to mark up the same spot in a book. If 25% of people mark up the same passage, I would call that pretty "popular." I have no idea what the formula is, but the formula is relative… books with more highlights require a higher threshold than ones with fewer.
Harry Hahne said:In addition, as I have suggested elsewhere, I would like a less obtrusive indicator of the number of highlights than "[5 highlights]".
I agree fully… I don't think there is a need to display ANY message. Just show the highlights.
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Even if it's already done that way (a major assumption; they're not known for correct answers; just unload the whiner), obviously their algorithms need some tweaking.
Well, anyway, I'd bet this is going to be like the 'wear stripes' on the scroll-bar. They can't be user-optimized, only turned off; I've only heard of one forum user that likes them?
It's like they come up with a good idea, get so many developer 'minutes' to implement it, reach the budget limit, and then wait for the next major re-write to put the stake in its heart. 'Users didn't use it!' Hello.
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
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alabama24 said:
If you think about it, it is pretty hard to get anyone to mark up the same spot in a book. If 25% of people mark up the same passage, I would call that pretty "popular."
I disagree. If readers are highlighting the major ideas in a paragraph, the majority of readers will mark the same spot. That is what I would want. I don't care if a few users find some other aspect interesting, even if it a minor idea in the paragraph. I can mark that myself. What popular highlighting should do, in my opinion, is show what statistically are the most common statements that readers think are important. For that, I would want something very high on the frequency curve. That is why I like the idea of 75% of users. If the threshold is as low as it now is, you get too much "noise" and the tool loses its value.
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I'm not going to argue over the current threshold… I don't have an opinion on it honestly. It would be hard for me, however, to imagine ANY resource ever having 75% markup on a single passage.
Harry Hahne said:I don't care if a few users find some other aspect interesting, even if it a minor idea in the paragraph. I can mark that myself. What popular highlighting should do, in my opinion, is show what statistically are the most common statements that readers think are important.
If the tool isn't useful to you, I would suggest turning it off. I do think that the feature will need some tweaking… but what you think is import and what the "community" thinks is important will not always line up. There is no way for Logos to know which highlights are marked because the users thought they were "important" over merely "interesting."
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alabama24 said:
If the tool isn't useful to you, I would suggest turning it off.
Bama, think this comment is a bit over-the-top. Harry was merely offering a suggestion as to improvements to this feature. Comments like this cause some users to imagine that Logos—and/or MVPs—are quick to discount anything that does not follow the company line.
Personally, I consider the entire feature to have been introduced without adequate forethought and poorly implemented. However, others apparently see value in this feature, and their suggestions should not be so abruptly dismissed.
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alabama24 said:Harry Hahne said:
In addition, as I have suggested elsewhere, I would like a less obtrusive indicator of the number of highlights than "[5 highlights]".
I agree fully… I don't think there is a need to display ANY message. Just show the highlights.
A popup on mouseover of the text seems like a good middle ground to me. But I agree, the information gained by knowing how many users highlighted the passage is not nearly worth the obtrusiveness of having it in line with the text.
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As I noted above, I think the current idea-execution is similar to the 'wear-marks' on the scrollbars. Badly managed, they become literal turn-offs.
However, having watched Bob & Co's introduction of features, I had been HOPING that eventually you could buy (presumably some for free) the underlinings and notes, by well known professors or pastors that would go with selected books. I still remember some of my professors' comments in Bible college.
In that vein, I'd think some type of on-screen 'from who' or generic percent is needed. A mouseover is certainly efficient. But I'd like to see the day when you can actually select well regarded teachers for the highlights (and notes).
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
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Jack Caviness said:
Bama, think this comment is a bit over-the-top.
I wasn't trying to be dismissive… I meant what I said. If the feature isn't useful, turn it off. I agreed with the OP on some issues, concurred that some tweaking might be needed, and disagreed on another point. I wasn't trying to be disagreeable, and I apologize if I came across that way, but I did mean to disagree. "Popular" highlights can be a useful feature… and I want them to remain. To move to a system where 75% of users have to highlight a passage means that virtually NO highlights would ever be "popular." The OP has a different idea on the usefulness of popular highlights, and that is OK… But his idea of "popular highlights" and mine conflict.
Again, I concede that the formulas will need to continue to evolve, and I trust that they will.
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Since it is a suggestion forum I will leave it to Logos to worry about the implementation and practicality of the suggestion. It is for the time being only a "suggestion" and not yet an implemented reality.
There is some wisdom in what Jack has said[;)].
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Ted Hans said:
Since it is a suggestion forum I will leave it to Logos to worry about the implementation and practicality of the suggestion. It is for the time being only a "suggestion" and not yet an implemented reality.
But as "adults" we should be free to discuss what we want or need out of the software. What has gone wrong in our culture where people can't have civil discourse and disagree without being disagreeable? The time to discuss it is BEFORE it gets implemented, don't you think?
I know that in the "online" world, there are challenges unique to communication. Even people that I "know" here (such as my fellow MVP's), I don't really "know." I know that sometimes it isn't what you say, but how you say it. On several occasions, I have been sincere in my desire to help, and have come across in a way that I didn't intend. For that I sincerely apologize. I have reread my posts above and still don't understand what Jack thought was "over the top."
Here are two quotes by Harry:
Harry Hahne said:This seriously disrupts the readability of the text
Harry Hahne said:If the threshold is as low as it now is, you get too much "noise" and the tool loses its value.
My suggestion was intended to be helpful… If the tool "disrupts the readability of the text" and presents "too much 'noise,'" then Harry should turn off the "popular highlights." I can't understand why that would be offensive.
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Bama, I know it can be painful when one is only trying to be helpful but some
users perceive it differently, however it is generally the convention to simply
let suggestions be made without comment (though I have learned that the
hard way myself as well!)There has been an understanding in the forum (where are MJ and Rosie when you want them...?) that we should let folks suggestions stand, in order to avoid being or seeming to be critical of other users suggestions (as has been the case at times in the past).
To be honest if you disagree with a detail of a feature that has been requested, then others will criticise a book suggestion of yours or someone elses...and where does it stop?
This particular forum is made for suggestions - if you disagree with a request let it pass without a comment, but of course you are free to make your own alternative suggestion to Logos in another thread. Whether they are right or wrong is not the point here - the important thing is that is some users' experience and feedback on MVPs.
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alabama24 said:
I have reread my posts above and still don't understand what Jack thought was "over the top."
I quoted the portion that I thought was "over-the-top". As we each have a different perspective on the appropriateness of that statement, let's just let it go.
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Personally I'll go over the top on this invasive feature- DUMP IT or AT LEAST GIVE ME THE OPTION IN TOOLS TO TURN IT OFF.
It bugs the crap out of me.
Now thats over the top for ya!!!
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Whyndell Grizzard said:
Now thats over the top for ya!!!
[:D]
Whyndell Grizzard said:It bugs the crap out of me.
Mee too, but some users seem to like it.
Whyndell Grizzard said:AT LEAST GIVE ME THE OPTION IN TOOLS TO TURN IT OFF
You do know that you can turn it off from the Visual Filters right-click menu. don't you?
Hardly intuitive, but that is another discussion/debate/argument [8-|]
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Whyndell Grizzard said:
AT LEAST GIVE ME THE OPTION IN TOOLS TO TURN IT OFF.
Did you try THIS?
EDIT: I see you beat me to the punch, Jack. [:)]
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Thanks Jack and Bammy, that's what I was talking about
did not know about right click on those functions in visual filters.Nice to see all the clutter gone bye-bye!!
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We already use a dynamic scoring system; this book has 5 (the minimum) as a threshold because fewer people highlighted it. Books with hundreds of overlapping highlights have automatic higher thresholds.
We are replacing the "[6 highlights]" text with a less obtrusive graphical indicator (like the 'speaker' icon in Bibles) that you can hover over to see the count. This such look much better and help the feature 'get out of the way.'
Thanks for the feedback!
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As someone who has received this type of feedback for some of my suggestions, I say [Y][Y][Y]Ted Hans said:There has been an understanding in the forum (where are MJ and Rosie when you want them...?) that we should let folks suggestions stand, in order to avoid being or seeming to be critical of other users suggestions (as has been the case at times in the past).
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Whyndell Grizzard said:
Personally I'll go over the top on this invasive feature- DUMP IT or AT LEAST GIVE ME THE OPTION IN TOOLS TO TURN IT OFF.
It bugs the crap out of me.
Now thats over the top for ya!!!
I'd better not say out loud that this feature is totally OTT[:-*]
Dave
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Dave Hooton said:Whyndell Grizzard said:
Personally I'll go over the top on this invasive feature- DUMP IT or AT LEAST GIVE ME THE OPTION IN TOOLS TO TURN IT OFF.
It bugs the crap out of me.
Now thats over the top for ya!!!
I'd better not say out loud that this feature is totally OTT
That's what's great about America freedom and choices- well, unless its taxes and guns- then they forcibly give you one and take the other, just say'n
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Whyndell ... you're now qualified for your 'star'. First you throw out what you'll later castigate as an absolute violation of forum guidelines. Then follow that up with a short line to cover it, adding a smile. Richard's got it down real good. Alabama too.
Hi Alabama!
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
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DMB said:
Whyndell ... you're now qualified for your 'star'. First you throw out what you'll later castigate as an absolute violation of forum guidelines. Then follow that up with a short line to cover it, adding a smile. Richard's got it down real good. Alabama too.
Hi Alabama!
Star? did I miss sum thin! [:P]
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Wanting to revive this thread… I've just opened a book which appears to be popular highlighted throughout to the extent that its not really useful to know what the popular highlights are… it would be much more useful if they were limited to like the top 3 quotes per chapter or something.
גַּם־חֹשֶׁךְ֮ לֹֽא־יַחְשִׁ֪יךְ מִ֫מֶּ֥ךָ וְ֭לַיְלָה כַּיּ֣וֹם יָאִ֑יר כַּ֝חֲשֵׁיכָ֗ה כָּאוֹרָֽה
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Create a post in the English Feedback forum if you want it revived (you can refer to this thread)
Dave
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