How did David slay Goliath
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No I picked both. The quote from Cyprian is to affirm that your understanding of the stone as representing Christ can be valid. Follow my link to your library and read it in context to understand what I mean.David Paul said:You quoted two and picked the one you liked.
David Paul said:Sleiman said:
If you want to win me over to your camp, all you have to do is produce a couple of quotations from the fathers to support your “double death” theory. To make it easier, present just one quote and that’s enough to start a case with me.
I don't have to...you did it for me.
Very clever I must admit. I am going to assume that you genuinely misunderstood me. What I meant was that it's not possible to quote a church father interpreting the Goliath battle as alluding to second death or to prove that they understood that Goliath was killed twice.
Why did you assume I venerate them? I'm not going to make a case for patristic writings as this is beside the main point. What I was trying to get at is that novel interpretations of the biblical text happen all the time, but most (if not all) are in error. Check out the "Left behind" best selling series, the original book is free on Vyrso I believe.David Paul said:Btw, your veneration of "the fathers" is disturbing. A list of their errors would be almost half as long as their collected writings.
All I'm saying is that you might want to make your case sound stronger by quoting someone. Anyone! I'm making my challenge even easier for you: Produce any known reference (in Logos or not) that agrees with you that Goliath was killed twice and that his second death is unto the lake of fire (Revelation 20:14).
Some church fathers (like Cyprian) believed that Goliath was killed by the stone while others (like Augustine) believed that he was killed by the sword. But never killed twice!
David Paul said:50 וַיֶּחֱזַ֨ק דָּוִ֤ד מִן־הַפְּלִשְׁתִּי֙ בַּקֶּ֣לַע וּבָאֶ֔בֶן וַיַּ֥ךְ אֶת־הַפְּלִשְׁתִּ֖י וַיְמִיתֵ֑הוּ וְחֶ֖רֶב אֵ֥ין בְּיַד־דָּוִֽד׃
Biblia Hebraica Stuttgartensia : With Westminster Hebrew Morphology. 1996, c1925; morphology c1991 (electronic ed.) (1 Sa 17:50). Stuttgart; Glenside PA: German Bible Society; Westminster Seminary.
Seems like there is a concerted effort to apply Clinton"IS"m to this verse. Everything in the above sentence is presented as a contiguous WHOLE. There is only one sof pasuq ( ׃). It literally says "...and he struck down the Philistine and death of him and a sword was not in hand of David."
What I would suggest is to use your Logos to look at all the translations of this verse. You'll notice that some translations agree more with your interpretation than others. Particularly the NIV (logosres:niv2011;ref=BibleNIV.1Sa17.50):
So David triumphed over the Philistine with a sling and a stone; without a sword in his hand he struck down the Philistine and killed him.
The New International Version. 2011 (1 Sa 17:50). Grand Rapids, MI: Zondervan.
Interestingly, the IVP background commentary disagrees with this translation (logosres:ivpbbcot;ref=Bible.1Sa17.49):
David’s shot targeted one of the few vulnerable areas that could render his opponent unconscious. This allowed him to approach and secure Goliath’s sword, which he then used to kill his unconscious victim (despite the NIV’s implication that the shot killed Goliath).
Matthews, V. H., Chavalas, M. W., & Walton, J. H. (2000). The IVP Bible background commentary: Old Testament (electronic ed.) (1 Sa 17:49). Downers Grove, IL: InterVarsity Press.
This is not the only reference that does so. Consider the Expositor's Bible Commentary (logosres:ebc03;ref=Bible.1Sa17.50-51a):
The Hebrew of vv.50–51 is ambiguous (probably unintentionally) concerning whether David killed Goliath with a sling stone or with Goliath’s own sword. Boogaart’s analysis (“The Story of David and Goliath,” p. 214 n. 8) seems best: Verse 50 is the narrator’s personal comment, stating that David “killed” Goliath (eventually) and anticipating “the death of Goliath which is not recorded until verse 51.” David did not kill Goliath with an Israelite sword (v.50); irony of ironies, he did it with Goliath’s own sword (v.51; cf. similarly Benaiah’s exploit in 2 Sam 23:21). Baldwin summarizes: “The stone had stunned the giant, and now the sword must kill him” (p. 128; cf. Ariella Deem, “ ‘And the Stone Sank Into His Forehead’: A Note on 1 Samuel xvii 49,” VetTest 28, 3 [1978]: 350).
Youngblood, R. F. (1992). 1, 2 Samuel. In F. E. Gaebelein (Ed.), The Expositor's Bible Commentary, Volume 3: Deuteronomy, Joshua, Judges, Ruth, 1 & 2 Samuel (F. E. Gaebelein, Ed.) (702). Grand Rapids, MI: Zondervan Publishing House.
The EBC commentary is good because it quotes from others as well. In an earlier post I produced more references to make my point. Check them. if you don't have the resources in Logos, let me know, I'll copy/paste the relevant sections.
So I guess what I'm saying is that your translation is not conclusive. What you seem to be saying is 'believe me because I say so' rather than produce references to support your claims. Now again, who is "dwelling in it"?[;)]
At first I did not understand your phrase so I googled it and this is what I found:http://www.wimp.com/invisiblerope/David Paul said:Beware of rope
So do you mean that I see things that are not there? Don't worry I'm not offended because I sometimes do that. I also quite often miss things that are staring me in the face (as my wife will tell you again and again). You probably should agree given that you asked me why I didn't see something so obvious to you in the text.
More importantly, I also admit that I may be dismissing your theory altogether when I should not do so quickly. So I promise you that I'll consider your point of view in prayer.
With that as my closing statement, I won't be adding to this thread anymore, so I'll leave the last word for you if you prefer.
In Christ, Sleiman.
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Bootjack - for your interest, David also cut off his head not to make sure he was dead, but because he said to Goliath that he would strike him (stone) and take off his head (sword) in v.46. David trusted God so much that when it was over, he fulfilled the promise he made (something alot of people fail to do today because they trust in themselves instead of God), and took the head of Goliath and made the enemy retreat.
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Galatians 1:8-9Sleiman said:All I'm saying is that you might want to make your case sound stronger by quoting someone. Anyone! I'm making my challenge even easier for you: Produce any known reference (in Logos or not) that agrees with you that Goliath was killed twice and that his second death is unto the lake of fire (Revelation 20:14).
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My 2p's worth:
Q: How did David slay Goliath?
A: By faith.
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David Paul are you suggesting that a miracle (such as a supernatural resuscitation) occurs between v50 and v51 that made it possible for Goliath to be physically killed twice?
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Josh said:
David Paul are you suggesting that a miracle (such as a supernatural resuscitation) occurs between v50 and v51 that made it possible for Goliath to be physically killed twice?
Like I said, the Book is prophecy...and it's entire purpose is a circular argument about YHWH and the expression of His nature, which exemplifies itself in the establishment of a family--thus the enlarged Beitth ( ב ) at the beginning of Gen. 1. [I suppose I should add that beitth = bayitth = "house".] As prophecy, YHWH shoe-horns pictures of his purpose into every nook and crany of the Book.
I will repeat...paste...what I said earlier...
David Paul said:You don't have to understand exactly how it happened. I don't have to explain exactly how it happened.
That isn't a dodge--though I'm sure many will insist it is. I don't know "exactly" what dynamic was in play. Truth is, it doesn't matter...anymore than it matters "how" YHWH speaks things into existence. We don't have to know and explain the process down to the molecular level and beyond in order to accept that it happened. All we need to know is that it did happen and we (ultimately, in the appointed time) are expected to put it all together.
This is where the "the Bible's not a puzzle" crowd chimes in, along with the "you're insistence on prophetic interpretation is opening the door to all kinds of potentially loony ideas so we have to nail the door shut" crowd as well. I'm not going to take the time to respond to those gripes at this time. Call it a dodge if you want...I don't care. Golyaatth died twice because that is what Scripture says. His double death has a prophetically important meaning...it might be (I can't think of any other instance at this time) the first revelation of "second death" as a concept in the Bible. Very little is introduced for the first time in the NT. The references of Yeishuu`a and John don't occur in a vacuum.
I personally doubt there was a "supernatural resuscitation", but I can't rule it out. All I know is that the things that occur in Scripture, which occur both as prophecy and as the fulfillment of prophecy, occur to the satisfaction of 'Elohhiym. They don't have to occur or be explained to our satisfaction. In YHWH's sight, David killed Goliath twice. I don't need to have the intracacies explained to accept it...the rest of prophecy supports and confirms the revelation. I accept that dynamic along with the hundreds of "sheer coincidences" that stack in a 1:1 probability of His design.
ASUS ProArt x570s Creator, AMD R9 5950x, HyperX 64gb 3600 RAM, ASUS Strix RTX 2080 ti
"The Unbelievable Work...believe it or not." Little children...Biblical prophecy is not Christianity's friend.
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Milford, sorry I totally missed this post. Thank you for your kind words. I'd be honored to meet you. Perhaps one (warm) day I'll make the small trip to Oshawa and join you in a Sunday service maybe? I don't know.Milford Charles Murray said:Peace to you, Dear Brother!
Small indeed: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HEheh1BH34QMilford Charles Murray said:on this small planet
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Sleiman said:
Milford, sorry I totally missed this post. Thank you for your kind words. I'd be honored to meet you. Perhaps one (warm) day I'll make the small trip to Oshawa and join you in a Sunday service maybe? I don't know.Milford Charles Murray said:Peace to you, Dear Brother!
Small indeed: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HEheh1BH34QMilford Charles Murray said:on this small planet
Peace, Sleiman! We will want Winter to be over, eh??? *smile* Because of Jesus we have a Whole Eternity to meet; so it will happen when it happens! *smile*
edit: BTW -- Thank you for the "Small Indeed" video.
Psalm 139:1-18
Philippians 4: 4 Rejoice in the Lord always; again I will say, Rejoice. 5 Let your reasonableness be known to everyone. The Lord is at hand..........
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Sleiman said:
Small indeed: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HEheh1BH34QMilford Charles Murray said:on this small planet
Reminds me of this cool interactive site about the scale of the universe:
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Milford I love that Psalm!
Rosie that was really cool. I wa checking it out with my 3 kids, they were wow'd.
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Rosie Perera said:
Reminds me of this cool interactive site about the scale of the universe:
Thanks, Rosie! Had to put that into my favourites! *smile* Peace! and Joy!
Philippians 4: 4 Rejoice in the Lord always; again I will say, Rejoice. 5 Let your reasonableness be known to everyone. The Lord is at hand..........
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Very cool site. Thanks.
Interesting that the conversation turned in such a way that this link ended up on this thread
Interesting... "a coincidence!!"
Recalling my earlier comments regarding prophetic "coincidence" and the multiplicative factor associated with contiguous "chance"...
David Paul said:This, of course, is all just a long series of coincidences. The fact that the string of coincidences continues practically indefinitely is itself a "coincidence".
*Interesting fact: String 6 coincidences in a row--you just won Powerball!! Odds? 9-digits to one.
String 60 coincidences in a row? Odds far, far greater than 10 to 60th power...a number that is practically meaningless in this universe.
String 600 coincidences in a row? Odds? 1:1 Because that can only be Design.
Number of "coincidences" in the string of prophecies that support Goliath's double death? Far more than 600...
666? Perhaps....
Maybe more.
Fwiw, Rosie's link maxes out at 10 to the 27th power at the macro & 10 to the -35th power at the micro...
Considering just the prophecies about the Anti-Messiah, the string of "coincidences" exceeds the 600 figure. Of course, the prophecies of Messiah are even greater in number. The math that is associated just with these prophecies' interconnection within the book (not even accounting for fulfillments) far exceeds anything that makes sense in the created universe...
...that is, unless you acknowledge Design.
ASUS ProArt x570s Creator, AMD R9 5950x, HyperX 64gb 3600 RAM, ASUS Strix RTX 2080 ti
"The Unbelievable Work...believe it or not." Little children...Biblical prophecy is not Christianity's friend.
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If the sun was the size of a basket ball 23 cm 9 inches
Earth would be 2.0 mm 0.10 inch
Earth would be 54 yards / meters away
Next star would be 9300 miles away about 14,880 km
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Has anyone mentioned the idea that the bible uses (at times) phenomenal language? That is to say that its possible that the author wasn't sure exactly at what point Goliath died. Perhaps he was hit in the temple with a stone, collapsed - looked dead (but before anyone could take his pulse) he began to writhe as one might that is dead - yet still controlled by the nervous system. This may have been what prompted the head removal.
An example from the farm would be a chicken who continues to run around with his head cut off. The body of the chicken is dead, yet continues to move.
Not sure if David had a subscription to JAMA or not, or even what criterion was used to determine whether or not someone was actually dead. So its possible, the intent was to convey this confusion using language that was accurate to describe both times when Goliath "died". Either way, as has been said, the important part is David's faith. We know scripture to be true, inspired, and inerrant (at least I would hope we all do), we know it doesn't contradict it self, so obviously the fault lies with our interpretation.
I have a vague memory from sunday school that someone once said that there are parallels here to the gospel. I haven't read this scripture in that light recently, but it might be an interesting investigation. Off the top of my head, the damage to Goliath's head is reminiscent of the passage in Genesis that talks of one who is coming who will crush the head of the serpent. Perhaps then this story is intended to add to the idea that Jesus is a new and better David.
*shrug* perhaps Sunday or Monday I'll look at this closer.L2 lvl4 (...) WORDsearch, all the way through L10,
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Former Forum User ... you need to change you ID?
And welcome back!!
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
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