Logos....PLEASE moderate the forums!

I used to post (mostly questions, as I was new to Logos) regularly here. Then I noticed the Logos-haters and whiners seemed to be ruling the day.

I tried calling them on it, but found that I was becoming part of the problem, saying some things I later regretted (even though what I said was probably deserved and accurate). It's never productive to be part of the problem.

So now, I've basically quit using the forums. Just walked away.

It sure would be nice if these forums would be a good place for a Logos user to drop in and ask where to find this or that setting, or how to run a search for this word, or set up their prioritization. But it seems about all one finds are threads on how the Logos staff should be put in jail for charging for their books, or how Bob is so stupid that Logos will be in bankruptcy by next year. Then there's the p**sing contests between the alpha males, or one particular member attacking all things Catholic (and no, I'm not Catholic).

If a more firm stance on moderation could be taken, where habitual violators would be banned, it sure would help. I've tried...I've reported a number of posts that were in violation, but the violators never seemed to be dealt with. So I stopped bothering with that as well.

(Yes, I fear I'm being one of the whiners now. But I don't know any other way to make this suggestion to moderate the forums more tightly.)

Is there any hope? I feel bad for the new users who need help and can't find much besides mudslinging.

And no, I'm not posting this to get a bunch of folks to reply about giving it time and please don't leave and all that...don't bother with those replies because they aren't important. I'm only hoping someone who reads the suggestion thread will see this and pass it along as a serious matter.

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MJ. Smith

I believe your post has been brought to the attention of a Logos employee. I will contact a second.

GMCI

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/461986#Comment_461986

deleted.

Jack Caviness

Doc, I agree with you. These forums need moderation badly.

Jerry Bush

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/462006#Comment_462006

Doc, I agree with you. These forums need moderation badly.

[Y][Y]

If you want to put a label on me, I suppose conservative/evangelical would work (though I don't always tow the party line). That being said, I am saddened and angry at the things that have been directed toward our Catholic brothers and sisters.

Logos, I know that moderation is labor-intensive and therefore would cost money. How about giving some of the MVP's the ability to lock threads, delete posts, and ban users? I am sure a few of them would be willing to do this for you and many of them have shown that they can be trusted. Let us self-police in a limited way and see how that goes.

Jerry

Rene Atchley

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/462012#Comment_462012

While I understand the need to moderate forums like this in terms of just being able to find out important information about the program. I do wonder exactly what benefit Logos would get from eliminating "whiners" and negative ideas from a forum that might be one key way of getting feedback from customers...think free here. While it is certainly not appropriate to launch personal attacks on Logos personal and other poster or discuss theological issues per se. I don't see how nothing but a home boy forum helps the company in the long term especially on issue like a poor roll out of the product, lack of classical theological works (read censorship here), basing the product on a subscription model, and security concerns about the Cloud. What exactly is a whiner anyway...how about someone who wants Logos to create a secondary market so that the license can be sold?

Lee

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/462016#Comment_462016

Rene, I don't think anyone is advocating that users can only sing Logos' tune.

All healthy forums will contain a useful degree of dissension. The trouble starts when the scope of the forum is breached or etiquette is ignored by a few blighted individuals, trolls, who disrupt the delivery of content and discussion with a barrage of unwelcome pontifications, often thinly veiled as clarifications, honest inquiries etc.

Rene Atchley

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/462021#Comment_462021

It seems to me that until Logos takes actions that things are as they want them to be.

Wayne

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/462021#Comment_462021

All healthy forums will contain a useful degree of dissension. The trouble starts when the scope of the forum is breached or etiquette is ignored by a few blighted individuals, trolls, who disrupt the delivery of content and discussion with a barrage of unwelcome pontifications, often thinly veiled as clarifications, honest inquiries etc.

I think that the forums should basically be free as moderation would create new problems and discussions. There are a certain number of problem discussions that get started on the weekend about a dissatisfaction with Logos. The problem seems to grow with the passing hour and there is no one step in and give an official answer. At times I have thought that it would be good to have someone who can step in and block further posting for 24-48 hours until a definite answer can be given.

There are a threads that are an embarrassment. Mostly I choose to ignore those threads. User opinions and healthy degree of dissension are a big part of the buying experience. For example if I am looking at a product to buy I look at the opinions of the users. But I ignore both the very positive and very negative as I assume they have some kind of bias, don't know how to use the product, etc.

DMB

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/462025#Comment_462025

It is so hard not to click on a thread that clearly is juicy and whiny and troll-y. Kind of like on the TV channel listing.

We desperately need someone to stop us. I know myself, so many times I've been saddened, as I page down to read the next awful comment, thinking to myself, I am so thankful I am not as they.

George Somsel

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/462041#Comment_462041

thinking to myself, I am so thankful I am not as they.

Lk 18.11 [:D]

George Somsel

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/462016#Comment_462016

What exactly is a whiner anyway

I think the comment regarding pornography applies here: "You may not be able to define it, but you know it when you see it."

Jack Caviness

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/462045#Comment_462045

I think the comment regarding pornography applies here: "You may not be able to define it, but you know it when you see it."

You are too old to be looking [:D]

In regard to Jerry's comment, this MVP does not want the responsibility of disciplining trolls and/or spammers. These are the only two cases where I think moderation is warranted, and then it should be done by a Logos representative.

George Somsel

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/462047#Comment_462047

You are too old to be looking

When I'm too old to be looking (at women, not pornography), they can shovel dirt in my face.

Ken McGuire

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/462016#Comment_462016

There is moderation and moderation. It depends on what you mean. In my opinion, one of the biggest strengths of these forums is all the users who can and do answer all kinds of questions at all hours. It would be a crying shame if we were to lose that. The original poster suggests that we are already in danger of this because the signal to noise ratio has gotten so bad. But we would lose it also if every post were put into a queue until an official moderator OK'ed it for distribution. I don't think that is what anyone here really wants, but want to make clear that I don't want that.

There is also moderation in monitoring the forums, trying to put out some fires before they explode. This can be done by private communication with the offender, by timely official responses to concerns, and when necessary can be done by locking threads and banning users. Of course, a user can start another thread and get another user account easy enough usually. And doing big actions like that can inflame the situation even more. And so it is a judgement call - when to stamp it out, and when to let it die a natural death.

In my experience, both here, and in the Newsgroups before that, Logos really puts up with a lot. I think it is part of their vision of Customer Service to take the hits and stay professional. Again, we don't want to lose that, and I think neither does Logos.

SDG

Ken McGuire

Dean J

I would like self-righteous twaddle like the opening post to be moderated. This is a place to discuss Logos, not a pulpit. If people wish to provide negative feedback on Logos products, that is their prerogative, and may help Logos to gauge how they are doing (think the roll out of Logos 5).

Implicit in the Logos product is the idea that it is a 'Christian' company, and some people find that difficult to square with a company which has seemingly brought on board what many would consider to be a non Christian and false religion. This is a delicate issue, but getting all self-righteous about it is not the best response, in my opinion.

Rene Atchley

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/462056#Comment_462056

I sometimes wonder just how much profit a business must make before the moniker of "christian" is lost and company takes it place. It does strike me that asking for moderation from a multi-million dollar corp. (a guess) is sort of a self defeating proposition in that the forums says more about the posters than it does about the company...even when we are "whining" about one or another topic.

Room4more

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/462054#Comment_462054

[...]banning users. [...]

FYI: “Banning” institutes “blocking” an IP. How would you feel if your IP got blocked? – this means that your Logos software becomes only what you have on your system – NO MORE UPDATES!!

George Somsel

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/462056#Comment_462056

Implicit in the Logos product is the idea that it is a 'Christian' company, and some people find that difficult to square with a company which has seemingly brought on board what many would consider to be a non Christian and false religion. This is a delicate issue, but getting all self-righteous about it is not the best response, in my opinion.

Suggestion: http://www.amazon.com/Shinto-Meditations-Revering-Stuart-Picken/dp/1880656663/ref=sr_1_7?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1360689580&sr=1-7&keywords=shinto

DMB

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/462080#Comment_462080

At last, the Logos forum is broadening its appeal and recognizing the benefit of all religions. Very similar to the son of David (literally) as well as Manassah.

And a big thumbs up on George's Shinto Meditations; one MAJOR reason why we're considering Hawaii as our next abode (the only other United States Shinto shrine being in the northwest of course).

Wayne

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/462056#Comment_462056

I would like self-righteous twaddle like the opening post to be moderated. This is a place to discuss Logos, not a pulpit. If people wish to provide negative feedback on Logos products, that is their prerogative, and may help Logos to gauge how they are doing (think the roll out of Logos 5).

We may not agree with the opening post, but we don't need to just his motives. There are lots of people who don't like the free flow of the forums. Hopefully a few more posters think twice in the future.

Lee

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/462100#Comment_462100

FYI: “Banning” institutes “blocking” an IP. How would you feel if your IP got blocked? – this means that your Logos software becomes only what you have on your system – NO MORE UPDATES!!

I think we should distinguish between banning a user from forum participation, and stopping a customer from logging into Logos servers for paid services.

Speaking for myself, I would like to see a vibrant forum that could go occasionally off-topic with friendly chatter, considered advice, and even responsible dissension.

But I would like to see trolling, spamming and verbal one-up-manship kept to a minimum. I cannot imagine what the benefit would be to Logos and users for this sort of activity to proliferate.

Robert M. Warren

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/462045#Comment_462045

"You may not be able to define it, but you know it when you see it."

That would be US Supreme Court Justice Potter Stewart in the 1960s.

Room4more

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/462114#Comment_462114

FYI: “Banning” institutes “blocking” an IP. How would you feel if your IP got blocked? – this means that your Logos software becomes only what you have on your system – NO MORE UPDATES!!

I think we should distinguish between banning a user from forum participation, and stopping a customer from logging into Logos servers for paid services.

But it is one and the same log-in. you use your username-passwrd for: Logos.com

Everything associated especially your own logos software on your pc/mac uses the same password/login…or did you not notice.

Which again is associated with an IP account, if you were to block joesmho@brentwood.groove from the forums you also block his user account for the software, etc., etc.

[ i reserved the right to be mis-guided]

MJ. Smith

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/462061#Comment_462061

FYI: “Banning” institutes “blocking” an IP. How would you feel if your IP got blocked? – this means that your Logos software becomes only what you have on your system – NO MORE UPDATES!!

And I want poor logic banned [;)]The block of an IP in the forums doesn't not imply the blocking of all Logos services.

[ i reserved the right to be mis-guided]

Granted. But while passwords may be an integrated service, that does not mean that it is used identically in all Logos apps.

I would like self-righteous twaddle

And I want careful use of language - language that builds community rather than insults individuals.

Unfortunately, I have found on the forums, I often do not get what I want. I have learned an unfortunate lesson - the manners and consideration for others which was instilled in me, what I was taught was Christian behavior is not universally valued.

Room4more

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/462153#Comment_462153

I was taught was Christian behavior is not universally valued.

[;)] [Y]

Dean J

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/462153#Comment_462153

And I want careful use of language - language that builds community rather than insults individuals.

Yes, so do I, and I'm fed up with the moral brigade always trying to shut down legitimate questions or concerns about the product. I know I've been helped by reading people explaining why things are the way they are. If you are concerned about careful use of language, I shall assume that you are likewise concerned about the unnecessary caricaturing and superior moral tone found in the opening post ('logos whiners and haters'!). If Logos isn't a ministry then we are not parishioners, we are customers, and all of our feedback on the product is important. If the moral police don't like it, then let them go--instead of coming on attacking other forum posters and feeling sorry for themselves. I note that two people have complained about my post, yet neither of you complained about the tone and caricaturing of the opening post which created a thread designed to stir bad feeling towards regular posters.

Lee

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/462201#Comment_462201

Yes, so do I, and I'm fed up with the moral brigade always trying to shut down legitimate questions or concerns about the product. I know I've been helped by reading people explaining why things are the way they are. If you are concerned about careful use of language, I shall assume that you are likewise concerned about the unnecessary caricaturing and superior moral tone found in the opening post ('logos whiners and haters'!). If Logos isn't a ministry then we are not parishioners, we are customers, and all of our feedback on the product is important. If the moral police don't like it, then let them go--instead of coming on attacking other forum posters and feeling sorry for themselves. I note that two people have complained about my post, yet neither of you complained about the tone and caricaturing of the opening post which created a thread designed to stir bad feeling towards regular posters.

Dean, reading the posts it seems that you were the first to complain. And now you are using provocative language like "self-righteous", "moral police", "caricaturing" etc. And you are judging the motive of the original poster. I don't see how he or any poster on this thread has deserved your diatribe. Maybe you and the OP had some kind of disagreement, but this thread has nothing to do with it.

And now, I suppose I am the third poster to "complain" about your post.

Just who is attacking whom? Just what objective are you trying to achieve, what change are you trying to make? What's your problem, dude?

Even if Logos weren't a Christian company, and should be prepared to accept any criticism ... surely you aren't saying you do not follow Christ, and can write in any way you want?

Dean J

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/462216#Comment_462216

No, the opening post was flaming, simple. Or is it okay to refer to Logos posters as 'whiners and haters' because they hold a different view, or to caricature them? Seems like a double-standard going on here. Flaming is okay, but calling someone up on it isn't.

DMB

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/462216#Comment_462216

I think Dean's problem is that he wasn't aware that judging someone that has just judged someone else is off-limits.

The other thing of course, is that's judging someone's behavior can be ok, just not their motives. Only in a court of jurisprudence (and the correct country) can 'motive' be judged.

To flesh this second one out a little more, the OP whined about whiners and haters. So one can legally judge that. One simply can not, in a Christian-like way, opine concerning their motives. That's different. Maybe the OP was watching TV and accidentally wrote that. We just don't know for sure. Maybe someone used his computer while he went to the store for milk. It's really hard to say.

This is why most of the problem could be avoided if Logos simply handed out halos as appropriate. Then by carefully observing who didn't get get a halo, they could ban those ones.

Matthew C Jones

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/462223#Comment_462223

If we find a thread contains offensive content we just keep it alive by adding our $.02 worth complaining.

(Much like I just did. [6] )

Let's give it a rest folks.

Lee

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/462221#Comment_462221

No, the opening post was flaming, simple. Or is it okay to refer to Logos posters as 'whiners and haters' because they hold a different view, or to caricature them? Seems like a double-standard going on here. Flaming is okay, but calling someone up on it isn't.

In all honesty, if I had to pick out any posts in this thread that would qualify as "flaming", it would be yours, Dean. And your posts would be proof enough that we need some kind of "moral police", to use your terminology.

Dean J

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/462223#Comment_462223

very good DMB, but I think your differentiation fails upon the OPs characterization of those who have offered criticisms as 'haters', which characterizes their motive as hate, which is a strong word, clearly intended to flame and alienate posters on here. I, on the other hand, characterized the content of the post, which quite ironically I should not have had to read on a Logos forum for very reasons he provided.

Dean J

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/462229#Comment_462229

No, the opening post was flaming, simple. Or is it okay to refer to Logos posters as 'whiners and haters' because they hold a different view, or to caricature them? Seems like a double-standard going on here. Flaming is okay, but calling someone up on it isn't.

In all honesty, if I had to pick out any posts in this thread that would qualify as "flaming", it would be yours, Dean.

You didn't answer my question. Strange that. The reference to 'moral police' is in relation to people criticizing others on moral grounds for raising criticisms of a product, not a reference to legitimate moderation of flaming posts etc.

MJ. Smith

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/462201#Comment_462201

yet neither of you complained about the tone and caricaturing of the opening post which created a thread

I distinguish between an abstract group being complained about and attacks against a particular individual or named group.

with the moral brigade always trying to shut down legitimate questions or concerns about the product.

While I have seen this accusation made frequently, I have seen the shutting down of legitimate questions only occasionally. As in a face-to-face community, there are particular people who by reasons of upbringing, culture, age or mental health need to be given a broader leeway than others.

Lee

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/462231#Comment_462231

You didn't answer my question. Strange that.

Your comprehension of English must be limited if you cannot see the "answer" to your "question". You have my pity. I have reported your post using the Report Abuse feature, and I hope Logos does something about it.

DMB

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/462230#Comment_462230

Actually I agree with you, Dean.

I'm just trying to follow the Christian-like logic for the other posters. It's really interesting.

Dean J

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/462234#Comment_462234

Your comprehension of English must be limited if you cannot see the "answer" to your "question". You have my pity. I have reported your post using the Report Abuse feature, and I hope Logos does something about it.

I merely note that while you were prepared to characterize my post as flaming, you were not so willing to commit yourself to excluding the first post from the same criticism, thus demonstrating the possibility that you are using a double standard. Your insult concerning my comprehension and your reference to pity is just plain silly and far worse than anything you accuse me of.

Dean J

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/462236#Comment_462236

Actually I agree with you, Dean.

I'm just trying to follow the Christian-like logic for the other posters. It's really interesting.

And I agree that I probably did react OTT on my initial post; but yes, the reaction IS very interesting.

Dean J

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/462232#Comment_462232

yet neither of you complained about the tone and caricaturing of the opening post which created a thread

I distinguish between an abstract group being complained about and attacks against a particular individual or named group.

with the moral brigade always trying to shut down legitimate questions or concerns about the product.

While I have seen this accusation made frequently, I have seen the shutting down of legitimate questions only occasionally. As in a face-to-face community, there are particular people who by reasons of upbringing, culture, age or mental health need to be given a broader leeway than others.

This is of course getting blown out of all proportion. I will just note that I have noted your characterization of what I said as an 'attack' and his as a 'complaint' and leave it there.

Lee

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/462239#Comment_462239

One characteristic of a troll is someone who is prepared to impose a logic on others, while excluding himself from the rigours and demands of that logic.

Dean, you remarked that it was "strange" I did not answer your question. Did you answer the questions I posed to you before that?

Remove the log in your eye, brother, and repent of your madness. You are starting to act like like a troll.

Dean J

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/462244#Comment_462244

Logic is logic--it's not a respecter of persons. My question allowed the possibility that both my post and the initial post were flaming, yet by your answer you made it an either/or and then settled on mine. While you may think that I can't comprehend English, that I'm pitiable, a troll, a flamer, mad, and have log in my eye, (which quite pales in significance to my characterization of an opening post which used moral categories to speak of those who have criticized products), I am still left persuaded that anyone who can't see that the characterization of posters as 'hater and whiners' is both flaming and unacceptable is not being impartial. I am more than happy to admit that I could have expressed myself in a less provocative way, but what I cannot see if how anyone can criticize me without equally (or more so) criticizing the opening post.

Your questions to me amounted to 'what is your problem' 'what do you hope to achieve' etc, which are usually taken to be rhetorical. Your question about acceptable standards of writing was only added later, after I had posted. I may be the worst sinner in the world, but that doesn't absolve anyone from being impartial, and I don't see that. The OP was clearly flaunting the rules, yet you all want to hold me to account.

Lee

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/462249#Comment_462249

To sum up this thread.

We have the original poster, who wants to make this forum a better place, who makes the case that some form of moderation should be exercised by Logos.

And we also have exhibit A: Dean053

George Somsel

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/462223#Comment_462223

This is why most of the problem could be avoided if Logos simply handed out halos as appropriate. Then by carefully observing who didn't get get a halo, they could ban those ones.

I've got a halo

George Somsel

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/462244#Comment_462244

Remove the log in your eye, brother, and repent of your madness.

Peace, There is enough wood here to construct a small house.

Luigi Sam

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/462201#Comment_462201

Yes, so do I, and I'm fed up with the moral brigade always trying to shut down legitimate questions or concerns about the product. I know I've been helped by reading people explaining why things are the way they are. If you are concerned about careful use of language, I shall assume that you are likewise concerned about the unnecessary caricaturing and superior moral tone found in the opening post ('logos whiners and haters'!). If Logos isn't a ministry then we are not parishioners, we are customers, and all of our feedback on the product is important. If the moral police don't like it, then let them go--instead of coming on attacking other forum posters and feeling sorry for themselves. I note that two people have complained about my post, yet neither of you complained about the tone and caricaturing of the opening post which created a thread designed to stir bad feeling towards regular posters.

[Y]

I think this is a fair post. ( even if you don't agree with me on any particular post of mine )

Lee

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/462283#Comment_462283

To paraphrase a parable: there is none so blind as those who claim to see. Folks with unimpeachable logic, pristine motives, pure morality, are surely a dime a dozen.

Real humility and a healthy dose of diffidence are always a benefit and a testimony in this Forum, or any forum. For a Christian, that should be his goal in posting, never mind if Logos can be characterized as "not a Christian company".

In the OP, I perceived that diffidence and that vulnerability. I agree with the OP's call that some sort of moderation or censorship is in order. In my view, there is a good business case for this too.

David Ames

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/462283#Comment_462283

Hi: Glad to see you here. Just for the record sometimes it does not take much to set us off.

ST’s post says it best:

“”If we find a thread contains offensive content we just keep it alive by adding our $.02 worth complaining.””

[[But with inflation what was $0.02 is now about $0.50]]

And then we again ‘cry’, some 3 pages latter, that the thread is still going.

Stick around for a year or so. Get to know the ‘players’.

[[And be surprised when someone thanks you for giving them advise – and, if you stick around, it will happen]]

Matthew C Jones

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/462428#Comment_462428

and a healthy dose of diffidence

diffidence ... I learned a new word today; diffidence.

I just love reading the forums. I can learn so much from everybody else.

Word for the day; diffidence. I will try to use it 10x today in conversation. [8-|]

DMB

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/462486#Comment_462486

Yes, yesterday's word from Beloved was 'aspirate'. I still haven't quite figured a way to use it yet.

'Diffidence' is a fun word since its subtleties (spelling?) allow it to be used in a slightly snobby way especially in romance novels.

David Ames

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/462486#Comment_462486

How to use DUMMY PBB:

See a word that you do not know the meaning of or some other interesting item that you ‘wish’ Logos could help you on?

Copy the text to a DOCX file – maybe dummyPBB.docx

Open Logos

Open Tools

Open Personal book

[See the wiki for details at http://wiki.logos.com/Personal_Books]

Compile DUMMY

The book DUMMY will open

Now you can use the dictionaries in Logos to find the meaning of that word or whatever other question you had

[I could have defined the word under discussion but it is more fun to tell you how to find it for yourself]