Any advice on what would be the best resource for a critical apparatus for the Greek NT? I was thinking about getting the NA27 with the critical apparatus but for $100 i thought there might be something better.. any suggestions?
I generally use Tischendorff plus Comfort. I have an order in for the NA28 with apparatus though I suspect that for more detail I'll still use my old standbys.
Can't seem to find them on Logos... I am really new to text criticism so I'm trying to find a decent apparatus that will help me. Have you used the apparatus in the NA27?
https://www.logos.com/product/2211/novum-testamentum-graece-apparatus-criticus
https://www.logos.com/product/7855/the-text-of-the-earliest-new-testament-greek-manuscripts
For a view of the various apparatus available in Logos: http://wiki.logos.com/Resource_Review#Apparatus
We haven't added the BHS Quinta apparatus page yet which is in the GBS package.
I don't have humble opinions (IMHO), but Logos is very weak in the area you're exploring. Even a fairly critical discussion of the manuscripts and their inter-relationships is not available, whether for the greek, the LXX, or the hebrew. Essentially you work outside Logos and limp along periodically with what's available.
Mmm .. time to check on A-company's windows version (they don't seem to want to put a 'quarter' on it yet).
Kyle, what I generally go to is:
I think I bought that as part of the SESB for Logos Users, but that collection doesn't seem to be available still.
Denise, first of all I don't believe in the perpetuity of them, their website book search is not working in IE9, they don't display copyright years for books on the website, they seem to have few items on a sale, and they have a very sloppy policy for giving for example student discounts. I called their customer service yesterday evening and the person at the all other enquiries number said it's coming in the end of this year. One item that they have which is very easy to use, is the Comprehensive New Testament cross-references, it's in English. It's from 2009 and based on NA27. I have the 2008 Edition of it as printed matter. It doesn't require Gk. It lists the variants of many English versions. I wrote the review of it on Amazon.co.uk: http://www.amazon.co.uk/Comprehensive-New-Testament-T-Clontz/dp/0977873714/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1361269794&sr=1-1Back to the A company, they have tuition how to use the software here in Sweden in April 2013 but the software on emulator has a VERY prohibitive $28 postage fee to Sweden:
Isn't the Göttingen-set a good critical apparatus for the LXX?
Useful information: when buying from Amazon.COM, enter it through the link in the right pane at: http://csntm.org/ and then the Center for the Study of New Testament Manuscripts will be given a portion of Your purchase at no cost for You! [:)]
Unrelated: (Really difficult to make up my mind between NIDNTT and ISBE. Have placed many pre-pub orders. Now as this is my 500th post it's time to take a break from the software forums and focus on Maths, cleaning and saving money for a furniture moval in the short run and a moped-car in the long run.) Good bye, see You later on everybody!
You might like to check out the personal book at http://community.logos.com/forums/t/46696.aspx which has a (free) apparatus for the Greek NT.
It depends what you want
1) The UBS 4 Greek New Testament is a good translators/pastors apparatus. It does not have every variant, but the most important ones. It cites the Fathers and is fairly easy to use. Metzger wrote a commentary based on this text and the two work well together.
2) NA27 is more scholarly with mare variants. This was the scholars standard up until recently. I like it better than the UBS 4 because it seem more complete. (The print version also has a great cross-reference system that is sorely missing the all digital versions of this product)
Both option 1 and 2 are found in the GESB student bundle. If you are opting for either, I would get both. If you customize a package for LOGOS 5, you can get them for about $130 together with the parts of the BHQ and BHS - a great deal. If you already bought Logos 5, just call a sales associate and ask nicely.
3) The NA28 (on prepub) is mostly similar to the NA 27. The general epistles contains and entirely new system and the rest of the GNT has been expanded upon to include some new papyri. It is available on prepub. It should be noted that this is a work in progress. Wait about 5 more years, and your will probably see the NA 29 - as they expand their work to more books of the New Testament. I have a print version of the NA28 and will probably not order the digital version since I already have the GESB student package and Bibleworks 9
4) The CNTTS apparatus (missing from Logos) is also a great resources. It is available in Bibleworks and Accordance. It is exhaustive and far more than most need. It lists every conceivable variant including the variants of the "nomina sacra." Its weakness is that they have not included the witnesses of the Church Fathers yet (it is still a work in progress). One thing I like about the Bibleworks version is that, with the click of a button, you can see that variants charted out according to century and Aland category number. I like that a lot. I wish Logos would implement something like that.
Unix, I might have been confusing. In DMB parlance:
A-Company = Accordance (which more often than not will have the missing functionality or original languages book)
B-Company = Bibleworks (which clearly is not very sophisticated since it's fast)
O-Company = Olivetree (which can't possibly exist, since their library is so small)
L-Company = Logos (most of the time but periodically Laridian)
These barely hidden labels are to comply with Logos guidelines while completely ignoring what some conceive of as Christian behavior (an older and possibly out of date standard)
Thank you all for the advice. I really wish Logos would make the CNTTS available for its users. So the NA27 apparatus doesn't have the cross references available? in other words when i place my mouse over a variant does it offer all the information found in the appendices?
The NA27 with apparatus offers most of the information in the appendices, but does not have the appendices (In other words, the information is in the tagging, but you can not look at a list of witnesses like you can in the print version.) It also does not contain much of the preface material you would find in the print version. As mentioned before, it does not have the marginal cross-reference system.
There might be other differences, but these are the ones I noticed. These limitations are the reasons why I still like having a paper copy handy (especially for the marginal cross-references).
If you are interested in getting the NA27, I would highly suggest getting as part of the GESB student bundle. Call a sales associate to see if they can give you the "customize button" price if you have Logos 5. But just getting the NA27 separately? Not for $100. I would rather add the NA 28 which is on pre-pub for $70.
http://www.logos.com/product/21066/german-bible-society-bundle-student-edition (This is my recommendation in for LOGOS. If you recently ordered LOGOS 5, call and ask them if they will give you the "customized" discount. If you can't ordered Logos 5, order it as make sure you hit the "customize" button before you check out and look for this package.)
http://www.logos.com/product/29980/nestle-aland-greek-new-testament-28th-edition-with-critical-apparatus
Very helpful! thank you, Michael.
Michael,
Which "dead tree" version would you then recommend? I have NA28 in Logos and awaiting the apparatus. I have the bundle you referenced, as well. What I think I'd like is the ability to view the text of all the manuscripts themselves, preferably in as few volumes (of the same set) as possible. I'm not sure if anything you've described, print or electronic, meets that criteria or not.
Thanks,
Donnie
What I think I'd like is the ability to view the text of all the manuscripts themselves,
In order to do this you would need a facsimile edition rather than a transcription. You can find a facsimile of Sinaiticus online as well as perhaps a few others, but most editions of the mss are transcriptions.
I probably don't have all the technical vocabulary quite correct here. In what I was describing as what I'd like to be able to see, I understood that it wouldn't be a "picure" (fascimile ?) of the actual manuscripts but rather a "transcription" (I assume) of the manuscript's text to something more accessible, likely as miniscule text, etc. My purpose isn't so much to examine a manuscript as to see the text itself.
Thanks for the reply, George.
If you read the NA28 write up on its site, their electronic edition's apparatus goal is a gateway concept ... to the literal manuscripts and examples. It will offer the next level of user access.
UBS4 w/ apparatus + Metzger is a very good starting place for getting into NT text criticism.
Having NA27 w/ apparatus is nice, but without Comfort's Text Commentary – how is this still not available for Logos!? – it can be really difficult to wade into.
Ideally, we'd have UBS4, NA27, Metzger, and Comfort – an ideal "starter's" library of NT text critical resources.
Donnie,
Such a product does no exist yet, but the CNTTS and Editio Critica Maior come close to what you ideally want through their apparatus'.
This website is useful is you want to access the New Testament texts:
http://www.csntm.org/manuscript
Logos sells the "The Text of the Earliest New Testament Greek Manuscripts" which you might be interested in,
Turns out I have the Comfort resource in Logos ( http://www.logos.com/product/7855/the-text-of-the-earliest-new-testament-greek-manuscripts ). Sometimes I can't keep track of what I have and haven't purchased.
Best I can tell, that resource does not have transcriptions for Sinaiticus, Alexandrinus, or Vaticanus. Do I have that right? If so, a) why aren't they included with that (obviously it's Comfort's work / choice, not Logos)? b) Is there a Logos resource that does have transcriptions of those manuscripts?
Thanks again,
Turns out I have the Comfort resource in Logos ( http://www.logos.com/product/7855/the-text-of-the-earliest-new-testament-greek-manuscripts ). Sometimes I can't keep track of what I have and haven't purchased. Best I can tell, that resource does not have transcriptions for Sinaiticus, Alexandrinus, or Vaticanus. Do I have that right? If so, a) why aren't they included with that (obviously it's Comfort's work / choice, not Logos)? b) Is there a Logos resource that does have transcriptions of those manuscripts? Thanks again, Donnie
Comfort only has papyri. Sinaiticus, Vaticanus and Alexandrinus are parchment codices, not papyrus.
No offense to Donnie, but what an interesting pair of comments above.
Absent Comfort's being cheap, I suspect a reverse-interlinear ESV is all that's really needed in Logos' mind. Or maybe some pablum (Metzger, no offense). Logos doesn't have even decent resources on the first layer of manuscripts for the hebrew OT, Old Greek and NT. Much less the next layers. Latin?? What's that?
But we DO have Vyrso. Thank goodness, since Vyrso-type books are so hard to find in an electronic medium.
Heh. A smidge of cynicism leaking out, it appears... Having a bad day?
Anyway, I don't disagree with the core of the observation.
A la contrare ... the cynics loved Vyrso books back in Roman times, since you didn't have to lug them around (nor a PC for that matter). I'm just not real thrilled buying my fourth Bible software in order to do 'basic' study associated with discussions from a century ago!
One solution is to read more current scholarship rather that searching the musty, dusty archives of forgotten lore.
Give up Westcott and Lake? Actually I won't be surprised if current NT scholarship finds themselves slowly sliding backwards to 1898. The Aland conspiracy will be revealed and Nancy Drew books will be best sellers again.
I'm rooting for Pippi Longstockings.
Returning, if I may, to the thread topic...
Is there consensus that Logos does not in fact have a resource containing transcriptions of the parchments ?
The only manuscripts that are close to what you're wanting is the free pre-pub (and it's not the one you want).
Frankly (and maybe this is just dreaming), but a system similar to what google did with the folks in Israel on the Dead Sea Scrolls (and Fr Devin to hook it up in Logos .... thanks again for the DSS!) makes a LOT more sense. (1) It takes advantage of continuing imagery improvements (2) It's potentially free (or small subscription) and (3) New technology is happening so quickly 'owned' packages will go out of date quickly (unlike the papyri). So with so MANY NT-ish manuscript and so many languages, I'd probably prefer this route. It seems like a no-brainer for the scholarly set. Ditto on LXX manuscripts.
The OP originally asked for replacements for ~$100 but is now asking for CNTTS in the Suggestions forum.
Logos doesn't cheat but puts own work into producing books. Is there really any standard for how to transcribe such a parchment as Sinaiticus - it has many scribes notes and corrections? Probably the kind of resource You are asking for would cost ~$230 considering that it would not be allowed to contain errors and that many customers interested/skilled in Gk already have the NA/UBS GNT:s. The employees at Logos proficient in Gk are probably busy with many other things. So I wonder if there would be all that much interest and whether Logos would any profit margin:
Denise, (am not back to stay I am on a pause) I'm not that familiar with what google did. Could You ellaborate, what do You mean would be a better resource on LXX than Göttingen?:
Frankly (and maybe this is just dreaming), but a system similar to what google did with the folks in Israel on the Dead Sea Scrolls (and Fr Devin to hook it up in Logos .... thanks again for the DSS!) makes a LOT more sense. [...] So with so MANY NT-ish manuscript and so many languages, I'd probably prefer this route. It seems like a no-brainer for the scholarly set. Ditto on LXX manuscripts.
It was them that I called. And no they don't have better Gk functionality, for example they can't turn transliterated Gk back to non-transliterated Gk according to a reply I just got on their forum from someone who works there. I don't recommend them:
Unix, I might have been confusing. In DMB parlance: A-Company
A-Company
I noticed that several people have mentioned that they have Comfort already. I was speaking about his New Testament Text and Translation Commentary, which is not yet available for Logos. That's the resource that's most useful for text criticism.
Are you sure you didn't mean
http://www.amazon.com/Joy-Sex-Ultimate-Revised/dp/0307587789/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1361574307&sr=1-1
[;)] [:D]
I really wish Logos would make the CNTTS available for its users.
Ask and you shall receive. It's in pre-pub now!
http://www.logos.com/product/32501/center-for-new-testament-studies-new-testament-critical-apparatus
Ask and you shall receive. It's in pre-pub now! http://www.logos.com/product/32501/center-for-new-testament-studies-new-testament-critical-apparatus
Does this mean I can drop the NA28 Apparatus and use the CNTTS instead?
...and I had just voted for the CNTTS a few minutes ago.
Ask and you shall receive. It's in pre-pub now! http://www.logos.com/product/32501/center-for-new-testament-studies-new-testament-critical-apparatus Does this mean I can drop the NA28 Apparatus and use the CNTTS instead? ...and I had just voted for the CNTTS a few minutes ago.
That is a good question. I would like to know where this makes the NA28 Apparatus not needed.
The NA27 and NA28 apparatuses are still useful and powerful resources in their own right. They take into account citations and quotations of the biblical text as they appear in early church fathers and early Christian documents (maybe even medieval documents... I'm not 100% sure).
On the other hand, CNTTS cites (almost exclusively) ancient surviving manuscripts. Primary source texts, if you will.
