Hmm...
I voted Swaggart and was also surprised by this!
I'm surprised too! I never expected Swaggart to get that many votes.
Outside of Jack Hayford and a couple dozen Bible college courses Logos is woefully lacking in Pentecostal works. In contrast, there are thousands of works by Reformed authors. I have noticed people don't generally hang out where they don't feel welcome. The Swaggart fans don't even know there is a March Madness sale going on here.l
disclosure: While not Pentecostal, I, too, voted for Swaggart. And I am surprised by how many votes he got.
In contrast, there are thousands of works by Reformed authors
Which leads to the question, why would they even pair these two?
Seems like "lip service", IMO
Why would anyone vote for a Swaggart? (Just kidding guys—it reminds me of "braggart"). [;)]
I was amazed at how lopsided this is. I would bet that a poll of the general public in the USA would have Swaggart ahead by a mile (unfortunately, IMHO)
Which leads to the question, why would they even pair these two? Seems like "lip service", IMO
I believe that once they've chosen the contestants and divided them into groups, the pairs are made by simply casting lots. At least I think they've said so in the past.
Every time a post in this thread turns up in my inbox, I keep getting reminded of a DVD title: Jimmy Swaggart Made Me Catholic. [:P]
I would bet that a poll of the general public in the USA...
Not too sure about that, it's been my experience that when he is mentioned, even within Pentecostal circles, one or two less than flattering issues enter into the conversation.
That being said, he does have a following, and to pit him against a reformist, (under circumstance where Reformed theology is status quo), seems unreasonable.
Why would anyone vote for a Swaggart?
I have over 10,000 books in my Logos library. Pentecostals are a very tiny part of my library. "Under-represented", you might say. I have a large library to read up on different theological perspectives. I bought Sproul back in the Libronix 2 days. I bought Spurgeon and Calvin Collections as Pre-Pubs. My point being I am running out of options on sale items. We all know a reformed author will win March Madness. That is fine but I will likely already own all the top echelon.
I am happy Swaggart even made it to the competition. We will never see a sale on Swaggart for 30% off again. And we can't get much Campbellite material out of Pre-Pub. Mennonite books finally made a showing. I would love to see Logos issue a blank check sale coupon (with limitations)where we can have a resources of our choosing for 40% off Then they would sell more Swaggart and ICC.
In my opinion there really isn't much of a choice in the entire ballot. There is Berkhouwer, but I already have Calvin. There are a couple of minor figures, but for the most part, nada.
If they had pitted him against Ray Comfort, and Swaggart won, eventually Swaggart would have to face off with a Reformist. But pitting him against Sproul was just plain mean. There are other Reformists with weaker following than Sproul. I guess they did not want to pair off Sproul against an equally strong author because they didn't want to drop a good selling author in the first round (less sales.)
didn't want to drop a good selling author in the first round (less sales.)
Ah, a method to the March Madness [;)]
If they had pitted him against Ray Comfort, and Swaggart won
With that pairing, Swaggart would have received my vote [8-|].
With that pairing, Swaggart would have received my vote .
[;)] I saw your review of Ray Comfort's book. Do you think it is possible Comfort is unaware of the other list of commandments? Years ago my kids bought a plaque with the "other" ten commandments on it and pointed out the difference from the Exodus list. My conclusion at the time was the same thing Ray Comfort concluded, and I reached it all on my own. I was ignorant until our good friend educated me. Maybe Ray.....
Besides Ray Comfort's current assertion I still like several of his books. I would buy The School of Evangelism, if I didn't already have it.
The problem with Swaggart is not that he is Pentecostal. There are many Pentecostals I respect. (Jack Hayford and the late David Wilkerson are examples.) The problem is that both this man's lifestyle and scholarship have been terrible. His moral failings, along with the opulent lifestyle, are well documented. Then there is the fact that he makes statements like "the original Greek says", and then says something that would make a first semester Greek student laugh out loud. The man's a fraud, plain and simple. I could never vote for him.
It might help if you knew which works were going to be discounted before you voted. As things currently are, people probably just vote for their favorite authors even though they probably own a lot of books by those authors already. People might vote for other authors if they saw that something they didn't already own would be discounted.
And let's not forget that upsets are the essence of March Madness, but I don't know if we'll see too many upsets under the current system. However, knowing in advance which works would be for sale might actually give Swaggart a chance of upsetting Sproul! [:)]
George, I have to agree. I already have most of the writers that would interest me, such as Martyn Lloyd-Jones, James Boice, N. T. Wright, etc. I wonder what resources by these writers will be available - all? some?
There is not much for me to get excited about. Then, again, that is probably good as I don't have much money to invest in resources now any way.
Like a few others here, I'm not a huge fan of Swaggart (and I am a conservative Pentecostal). But I also think it was ridiculous to pair him off with Sproul, and I have been echoing for quite some time now what others in this thread have said - namely, that Logos needs to add more Pentecostal material to their offerings. The ratio of Reformed material to Pentecostal material is not even close to being balanced.
I was shocked by this pairing too.
Actually, I was shocked too - I had to vote "None of the above" on this pairing.
I've read the sentiment that "it's ridiculous to pair Swaggart with Sproul" a few times in this thread...when I think it's ridiculous that he was even included. The man is a hack & a charlatan. He may not see himself that way, which just makes his doing anything about it all the less likely. I said it on another thread...it's embarrassing that he's carried by Logos. But still, if Logos wants to sell his stuff and people want to buy it, that's their anchor. Some things are just flagrant...and some people are as well. Not everyone who calls upon the Name is known. I'm commanded not to judge anyone's destiny...and I am commanded to judge righteous judgment according to His word. Doing so requires everyone to determine what accords with His revealed will...and what does not. We are to reject that which does not, while offering knowledge of the path that leads to light. However, those who say, "I see the light!" rarely conclude they need corrective lenses.
As always, it is what it is.
Wa'el, guess it's 'bout time to load up the Chevy, and cross the levy.
I said it on another thread...it's embarrassing that he's carried by Logos.
He is carried by Logos by their commitment to support all Logos resources to the best of their ability. The original files were released by eNelson in their "Lifeworks" series. That series also included John MacArthur, Charles Stanley, Bill Bright, R C Sprould, Jack Hayford, J Vernon McGee, and others (including Hank Hanegraaff.) So you could either look at it from the perspective that Logos inherited them and would rather not have (if it makes you feel better) or you can think Logos will publish anything and not censor those works some consider "heretical" or "hackish." I like to view Logos as open-minded and supporting the broadest array of resources without apology.
The man is a hack & a charlatan.
As for his publicised sin, he publicly repented. As for his ministry, that is between him and God. I don't send him any money. [*-)]
Some things are just flagrant..
Noah was a drunkard. Abraham was a deceiver. Samuel was a lousy father. David was an adulterer, deceiver & a murderer. God has a habit of forgiving pretty bad people. If we purged all the sinners from our Logos resources we would not have any libraries left. [C]
Some things are just flagrant.. Noah was a drunkard. Abraham was a deceiver. Samuel was a lousy father. David was an adulterer, deceiver & a murderer. God has a habit of forgiving pretty bad people. If we purged all the sinners from our Logos resources we would not have any libraries left.
Noah was a drunkard. Abraham was a deceiver. Samuel was a lousy father. David was an adulterer, deceiver & a murderer. God has a habit of forgiving pretty bad people. If we purged all the sinners from our Logos resources we would not have any libraries left.
The Pharisee, standing by himself, was praying thus, ‘God, I thank you that I am not like other people: thieves, rogues, adulterers, or even like this tax collector.
Lk 18.11
Thank you, Matthew! Well-spoken! Peace to you! *smile* Peace to all! Psalm 103:1-17
It is simple people, Logos is a for profit company so they work on the supply and demand principle. The fact that there are many more Reformed people using Logos is what drives the many more resources. I am Reformed and very happy with Logos's selection obviously. I know there are many vocal minority out there who would like more Arminian and Pentecostal resources and I support you. I hope Logos develops some more resources for you all to enjoy and I am sure I will buy many of them as well as I like to be informed on every side of the issues. As for Sproul winning by 95-5, that seems about right to me.
The Pharisee, standing by himself, was praying thus, ‘God, I thank you that I am not like other people: thieves, rogues, adulterers, or even like this tax collector. Lk 18.11
The problem with the Pharisees, of course, was that with few exceptions, they were thieves, rogues, adulterers, and tax collectors in YHWH's sight. It's why Yeishuu`a called them hypocrites over and over and over and over. Like Paul, they claimed to keep the law but did not. Their very existence as Pharisees was in many respects a violation of Tohraah.
Only a few miles to go. Hope the levy's dry.
The Pharisee, standing by himself, was praying thus, ‘God, I thank you that I am not like other people: thieves, rogues, adulterers, or even like this tax collector. Lk 18.11 Pharisees was in many respects a violation of Tohraah.
Pharisees was in many respects a violation of Tohraah.
to raaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah
Don McLean assures us it is.
The problem with the Pharisees, of course, was that with few exceptions, they were thieves, rogues, adulterers, and tax collectors in YHWH's sight.
David Paul - I didn't know you were old enough to have known the Pharisees in person.
Well, gee. We don't get french rain here. Besides, Don didn't really spell it out for us western folk.
As it is written: “There is no one righteous, not even one; there is no one who understands, no one who seeks God. All have turned away, they have together become worthless; there is no one who does good, not even one.”
Romans 3:10–12
As it is written: “There is no one righteous, not even one; there is no one who understands, no one who seeks God. All have turned away, they have together become worthless; there is no one who does good, not even one.” Romans 3:10–12
That, of course, isn't any more true than the last time you [Y]'d the quote, for the reasons I gave then...
I meet some just about every day...
Mk. 7:9
As it is written: “There is no one righteous, not even one; there is no one who understands, no one who seeks God. All have turned away, they have together become worthless; there is no one who does good, not even one.” Romans 3:10–12 That, of course, isn't any more true than the last time you 'd the quote, for the reasons I gave then...
That, of course, isn't any more true than the last time you 'd the quote, for the reasons I gave then...
Well, you know me and my "Sunday school, knee-jerk reactions" [;)]
Wretched man that I am, who can save me from this body of death?
See, George...I knew eventually you would get it right!
The ratio of Reformed material to Pentecostal material is not even close to being balanced.
Sheer curiosity - what is the ratio of adherents in the two groups?
The ratio of Reformed material to Pentecostal material is not even close to being balanced. Sheer curiosity - what is the ratio of adherents in the two groups?
Do you mean worldwide, North America, or Logos users. I'd suspect different numbers for each.
Pentecostals (including all stripes - not just 'classic Pentecostalism'), vastly outnumber non-Pentecostal protestants in most of the 3rd world. I just read a wikipedia article that claimed that classic Pentecostal denominations have more members than their protestant counterparts (including Reformed, I assume). My guess is that among Logos users there is a higher number of Reformed than Pentecostal, and I suspect that we Reformed Logos users outnumber Pentecostal Logos users by a large margin.
But there is more than one reason for this. One obvious reason is that there is a heavy emphasis on Reformed materials. The other is that it's in the nature of the Reformed movement to both produce and study academic as a method for more deeply understanding the Bible itself. Pentecostalism has been skeptical of academia, and academia has been quite unkind to Pentecostalism, creating a mutual dislike. This is changing (thankfully), and many Pentecostals are following the likes of Gordon Fee and entering academia as Pentecostals, and finding it a positive experience.
There is also, in Pentecostalism, a strong tendency to emphasize the experiential side of spirituality (vis a vis the intellectual side, favored by us Reformed types). Pentecostal books are published by the dozen, but are not generally reference works (which Logos has up to know focused on). I don't say that as a negative comment, but as an observation. Personally, I have several of these books, I love reading them, and find them spiritually helpful. I don't know, however, if I would benefit from having them in Logos. Vyrso, yes; Logos, not so much.
At least these are my observations as one who grew up in the Reformed tradition and has been profoundly impacted by Pentecostals, Charismatics and the Third Wave. I've got my foot in both worlds, and I hope I've been fair to both.
I'm a hybrid, too. Praise YHWH. [8-|]
I saw your review of Ray Comfort's book. Do you think it is possible Comfort is unaware of the other list of commandments?
Then, he should not be writing a book that supposedly presents the case of Christianity. He denigrates a large segment of Christendom without adequate research. How does he expect to influence atheists with such sloppy "scholarship"?
I would buy The School of Evangelism, if I didn't already have it.
Having previously seen the entire series of both the basic and intermediate "The Way of the Master", I will pass on this one.
Richard, that was a very fair and very accurate "snapshot" of the situation. Bravo for being completely fair to both groups. [Y]
But there is more than one reason for this.
I think you nailed it in a clear and unbiased way. Thank you for your eloquence.
Richard, what would your definition of Pentecostals/ism be?
That's a bit of a moving target, as Pentecostals themselves differ on some things. But a 'classical Pentecostal' believes that speaking in tongues is the initial evidence of the baptism of the Holy Spirit. Charismatics (generally) don't require that, nor do 3rd Wave. But in another sense charismatics, and 3rd Wave sometimes call themselves Pentecostals. Usually Pentecostals believe in all the gifts of the Spirit and in miracles today, but I know of Pentecostals (AG & 4Square) that don't "get into that stuff much anymore." (Strange, IMHO)
Also, when I talk about Pentecostals, I'm talking about a historical stream, not a set of beliefs.
I don't think any definition of Pentecostalism works except this one: Pentecostals are those who call themselves Pentecostals. I'm sure many Pentecostals would disagree.
Being a classical Pentecostal myself, I'd like to jump in and say that at our roots, the distinguishing feature is of course going to relate to "Pentecost" (i.e. the Day of Pentecost). A true Pentecostal is going to believe that the Baptism in the Holy Spirit, or being filled with the Spirit (if you prefer), is subsequent to salvation and is not synonymous with salvation. And that this gift is available today for every Christian. Tongues being the initial, physical evidence of the Baptism in the Spirit is generally also a strongly held belief.
Sad, but so true! And nobody is judging him because things fall by their own weight or as the Bible says "By their fruits you will know them..." Being a former Pentecostal, I already know enough about them to just try to stay clear from their writings. All I need is to study the Bible along with some helpful tools (Lexicons, Dictionaries, Concordance, etc) to be able to understand the truth. Yes there are some excellent commentaries out there, but the Bible sure sheds some light on all of them.
Blessings!
DAL
Hi, everybody, I wanted to post a quick introduction here so that you would know that the Logos leadership is listening and is moving to fill the need to round out our theological representation on our library.
I an a new product manager hired by Logos to focus on developing Pentecostal/Charismatic product and offerings. My background is Assemblies of God, though I grew up in a Baptist church. I attended an A/G Bible college (Southwestern Assemblies of God University), and worked through about 22 hours of an MA in Theology from the Assemblies of God Theological Seminary before I got married.
Just to give you an idea of what I've been working on, I have compiled a list of 319 (and growing) authors who have written material of interest to those of use who are Pentecostal, charismatic, neo-charismatic, Third Wave, renewalist, or continuationist (yes, it's a broad tent!). These authors aren't exclusively Arminian (James K.A. Smith is on the list, for example), dispensational, egalitarian (vs. complementarian) or subscribers of my personal pet theologies: I'm attempting to be balanced (and like you, I sometimes cringe when I see certain author's names).
On my list of 319 authors, 178 are not represented in our library at all. I hope to pursue getting their content submitted for PrePub as soon as possible. The remainder have anywhere from one title (Joyce Meyer) to 54 titles (Jack W. Hayford) in our library. I'm going to throw in Tozer, as well — he's got 57 titles represented! I'd like to expand the offerings of the authors we do have and pursue new authors we don't have. I'll likely start with the authors that are the most palatable to the existing Logos community and branch out from there as news of our product offerings gets out and momentum builds.
In addition to what I'm doing, we are also working on expanding our library resources for the Orthodox, Catholic, Seventh Day Adventists, and Anglicans. Unfortunately, this is bound to make some people (everybody?) unhappy because it'll be harder to identify what theological background an unfamiliar author is writing from, and some authors may be viewed with distaste or contempt for any number of good reasons. But, like a good library, the resources we acquire and supply are for you to use or not use at your discretion, they don't imply endorsement on our part.
So, to sum up, I'm here to help! I'll keep the forum apprised of new developments in my area o focus as they happen.
Regards,
Rich
