Dear Logos: I Need Your Help! (re: UK User "Survey")

So I get this "Dear UK User, We Need Your Help" email from Logos.

As a Logos user, keen to see people study God's Word, I think "yeah, let's get the word out."

As a businessman myself, I think "this is a business trying to get free marketing information on the back of its customers' goodwill."

And that's my problem. It's the classic dilemma of working with Logos - are we brothers in Christ, or customers of a business. Well both are true, both are quite legitimate.

So, Logos, I'll answer your survey, if you answer mine - seriously. As you offered no other incentive to take part, I am asking for something in return. I fully expect your joyful participation, as you presume upon mine in your Logos survey.

Best wishes
Richard (of Richard Lyall Design)

===================================================

I'm a graphic designer by trade, and I know you want to get good design out across the US. But I don't understand your culture, but you do, so to help increase my reach on your patch, please answer the following questions.

"I'd like to expand my reach in the United States, and am looking for all the best places to be seen. Please read the questions below and answer to the best of your knowledge. Thank you!

In the following categories, please fill-in the specific Graphic Design resources you view as the most influential."

Blogs:

Websites:

Radio:

TV:

Conferences:

Magazines:

Newsletters:

Facebook Accounts:

Twitter Accounts:

Other:

What do you believe are the best ways to reach the Graphic Design market in the United States?

Thank you for your time. It is appreciated!

Find more posts tagged with

Comments

DMB

Richard ... now I can see what you're talking about. Definitely a grey area. Wish they'd survey users for use/feature-desire. I know that's not your point.

Paul-C

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/474365#Comment_474365

But on the flip-side Logos doesn't ask anything in return for giving away a free book every month or the odd free CP resource.

JT (alabama24)

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/474381#Comment_474381

Richard - Something to consider... If the user base in the UK grows, it might benefit you and other Logos users. For example, there might be extra training events or UK only deals. Also, there might be UK publishers who come on board. [;)]

Richard Lyall

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/474395#Comment_474395

@Paul ... the two don't really compare, since the market value of an existing low-cost resource is much less than the gold dust of marketing info that will open up new trading opportunities. Anyway, from a business point of view, giveaways are designed to increase turnover by maintaining existing customer loyalty and generating new leads.

@alabama Hmmm ... what's preventing all of those happening already without this new marketing info?

Graham Owen

So Richard - where in the UK are you based? I'm in Basingstoke.

I agree with Alabama that there may be spin off benefits to us if Logos get a better foothold in the UK.

Are you aware of the Steve Runge event at West College in West?

Richard Lyall

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/474399#Comment_474399

Hi Graham I'm in Liverpool.

Sure, spin-off events are fine, no problem with that ... but it's just that I suspect that we don't often realise the business implications of innocent-looking things like the survey, or the commercial value of the information we so willingly provide, and we should be shrewd and wise about these things.

"For the people of this world are more shrewd in dealing with their own kind than are the people of the light." (Luke 16:8)

If I'm being asked for something of commercial value, I'd like something to show for it. I think we can operate out of a misplaced sense of charity towards Christian enterprises sometimes, and I suspect there's a danger of it here.

Graham Owen

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/474405#Comment_474405

If I'm being asked for something of commercial value, I'd like something to show for it.

I get that Richard, and I think that you are correct that Logos walk a fine line between building a user community and being a faceless business. 15, 10 even 5 years ago it was much more of a community.

Based on previous experience if they had offered a free book for completing the survey I would have already owned it!

Paul-C

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/474397#Comment_474397

@Paul ... the two don't really compare, since the market value of an existing low-cost resource is much less than the gold dust of marketing info that will open up new trading opportunities. Anyway, from a business point of view, giveaways are designed to increase turnover by maintaining existing customer loyalty and generating new leads.

Richard, I understand where you're coming from. For example, the frequent flyer schemes I'm a part of might give you a few thousand miles for filling out a survey. Out of interest, what would you like Logos to offer you for filling out this information?

Richard Lyall

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/474426#Comment_474426

Good question ... I hadn't really written this with any particular benefit in mind, it was more the principle that stirred me to write.

JT (alabama24)

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/474397#Comment_474397

@alabama Hmmm ... what's preventing all of those happening already without this new marketing info?

I'm not sure what you mean... Logos is trying to figure out how to best advertise in the UK market. You, as a UK Logos user, are uniquely able to provide insight that Logos could use for that endeavor. See what I mean? If Logos were going to drop a tv spot, would the money be better on Downton Abbey or Doctor Who. [:)]

Rosie Perera

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/474450#Comment_474450

Logos is trying to figure out how to best advertise in the UK market. You, as a UK Logos user, are uniquely able to provide insight that Logos could use for that endeavor. See what I mean? If Logos were going to drop a tv spot, would the money be better on Downton Abbey or Doctor Who.

That is the kind of info that companies pay market researchers to provide. Surely there are market research firms in the UK. Logos seems to be trying to get that info for free from its small UK user base. I know they're not unique. Other companies do these sorts of surveys. You often are requested to fill them out when you register a product (for which you get the benefit of ongoing product support or whatever). But it does seem a bit cheesy of Logos to do it via email long after the point of purchase and presume upon their users' good will with no reward.

Richard Lyall

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/474460#Comment_474460

@Rosie - yes, you've grasped my meaning exactly.

@alabama - of course they're trying to figure out how best to advertise in the UK market. That's very clear. The point of contention is the way Logos is going about it, by trying to extract valuable commercial information from paying customers (several thousand $$$ in my case) and not offering any kind of reward or incentive for them to do so.

ChelseaFC

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/474450#Comment_474450

If I was Logos and wanted to reach the UK Christian audience I would do a radio advert on Premier Radio and possibly on one of the God channels on Freeview (you'd have to be selective though). Another idea would be to give a free base package to some prominent UK pastors, churches, or organizations which could try Logos and then make a recommendation. Word of mouth is powerful. Also if seminary principals were convinced of Logos then it would be an easier sell to students. Come on Logos, give me some tools to help convince my principal. [:D] Anyway, these are my free UK tips for Logos so I guess I don't need to fill out the survey.

All the best,

ChelseaFC

Alan Macgregor

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/474450#Comment_474450

Doctor Who is a BBC programme and as such there is no advertising on BBC. That's one reason for me sticking to BBC. I find advertising tiresome and intrusive.

BTW I don't watch Doctor Who or Downton Abbey.

Every blessing

Alan

Alan Macgregor

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/474466#Comment_474466

Logos did offer some very good deals to students and postgrads at Aberdeen University a few years back. Also Tyndale House in Cambridge often mentions Logos positively.

Every blessing

Alan

ChelseaFC

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/474479#Comment_474479

Doctor Who is a BBC programme and as such there is no advertising on BBC. That's one reason for me sticking to BBC.

[Y] .

btw I think America should adopt this for American football, expect for the Superbowl. [:P]

BTW I don't watch Doctor Who or Downton Abbey.

[Y]

ChelseaFC

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/474480#Comment_474480

Logos did offer some very good deals to students and postgrads at Aberdeen University a few years back

[Y]

ChelseaFC

Richard Lyall

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/474499#Comment_474499

I wonder if anyone from Logos would like to comment?

Richard Lyall

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/474975#Comment_474975

@alabama ... not quick enough, my friend. Not quick enough.

I trust Zaxby's find your response helpful [;)]

JT (alabama24)

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/475006#Comment_475006

I trust Zaxby's find your response helpful

ive never tried thier milkshakes, but thier chicken is great. If you ever find yourself in my "neck of the woods," I'll treat you to some. [:)]

Richard Lyall

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/475059#Comment_475059

Time to go straight to the top. No more from me here.

Dave Hooton

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/475094#Comment_475094

Did Canada get a specific survey as well as Oz & GB?

Richard Lyall

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/475169#Comment_475169

Apparently so, as well as the Dutch. http://community.logos.com/forums/t/68176.aspx

Milford Charles Murray

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/475169#Comment_475169

Did Canada get a specific survey as well as Oz & GB?

Yes, we Canadians got a specific survey. However, it was so "fuzzy" I had great difficulty filling it out. Could be that I hardly every watch TV and don't read many magazines. ... and that perhaps I'm not "normal" in some other respects....

Here it is ... *smile* Peace! BTW - I DID give them permission to contact me if they so chose to do so!

Edit: In the survey form itself, there was "space" for my various comments. That "space" did not "copy" to this post.

International Survey - Canada

We'd like to expand our reach in Canada, and are looking for all the best places to be seen. Please read the questions below and answer to the best of your knowledge. Thank you!

In the following categories, please fill-in the specific Christian resources you view as the most influential.

Blogs:

Websites:

Radio:

TV:

Conferences:

Magazines:

Newsletters:

E-mail Lists:

Facebook Accounts:

Twitter Accounts:

Other:

What do you believe are the best ways to reach the Christian market in Canada?

If you don't mind being contacted for a follow-up, please share your information below. Otherwise, please leave blank.

If you don't mind being contacted for a follow-up, please share your information below. Otherwise, please leave blank. Name
E-mail Address

Thank you for your time. It is appreciated!

Dave Hooton

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/475175#Comment_475175

However, it was so "fuzzy" I had great difficulty filling it out. Could be that I hardly every watch TV and don't read many magazines. ... and that perhaps I'm not "normal" in some other respects....

Steering clear of Twitter and Facebook should make you normal[:)] - in my books at least.

NB.Mick

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/475217#Comment_475217

Just for the record: Germany received the same questionnaire, and I had some of the the same difficulties that Milford had.

James Milne Smith

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/475171#Comment_475171

I got one for Malaysia.

Milford Charles Murray

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/475217#Comment_475217

However, it was so "fuzzy" I had great difficulty filling it out. Could be that I hardly every watch TV and don't read many magazines. ... and that perhaps I'm not "normal" in some other respects....

Steering clear of Twitter and Facebook should make you normal - in my books at least.

Thanks, Dave! Saves me lots of time to be normal! *smile*

Hopefully all the time invested in this gigantic effort by Logos and by respondents will be beneficial to our "so-called" Logos "fraternity"! *smile*

Also, Logos operates with a very small group of operatives who usually do an excellent (bang-up?!!) job, eh.

Frankly, I'm not offended at all that Logos should ask me -- a very long term compatriot -- to assist them! I think it's in everyone's interest!

JohnB

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/475222#Comment_475222

Personally I can't see a significant reason for 'hot under the collar' moments. I had no information that could help so I did not fill it in. Simple. Move onto the next item.

If I had information, I would have happily filled it in. Why? Because I have a vested interest in this company continuing in business. Logos goes belly up and my investment in resources takes a big hit. When Woolworths went bust here in the UK I was sad but there are other shops than can sell me stick on soles for my shoes. Logos goes belly up .......? Not quite the same.

Richard Lyall

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/475395#Comment_475395

I welcome the freedom for the Logos community to express a range of equally valid views on these forums, whether others welcome or understand those views expressed or not.

It's good to get a sense of the breath of views represented on this or any topic.

Milford Charles Murray

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/475465#Comment_475465

I welcome the freedom for the Logos community to express a range of equally valid views on these forums, whether others respond calmly or get a little steamed up by some of those views expressed.

Some people are bothered by this survey, some are not. It's good to get a sense of the breath of views represented on this or any topic.

Thank you, Richard! Peace to you! *smile* Must be just about slumber time where you are ... May God give you a Blessed Sleep and may His Holy Angels watch over you and your loved ones! Thanks for posting!

We Logos Bible Software Users are indeed "a" Logos Community and are indeed unique and often quite "expressive," eh? *smile*

As we have approached the setting of the sun also here in Eastern Canada, please permit me to share a fantastic hymn from my Lutheran Background! *smile*

1. Now rest beneath night's shadow

The woodland, field, and meadow,

The world in slumber lies;

But Thou, my heart, awake thee,

To prayer and song betake thee;

Let praise to thy Creator rise.

2. The radiant sun hath vanished,

His golden rays are banished

By night, the foe of day;

But Christ, the Sun of gladness,

Dispelling all my sadness,

Within my heart holds constant sway.

3. The rule of day is over

And shining jewels cover

The heaven's boundless blue.

Thus I shall shine in heaven,

Where crowns of gold are given

To all who faithful prove and true.

4. To rest my body hasteth,

Aside its garments casteth,

Types of mortality;

These I put off and ponder

How Christ will give me yonder

A robe of glorious majesty.

5. Lord Jesus, who dost love me,

Oh, spread Thy wings above me

And shield me from alarm!

Though evil would assail me,

Thy mercy will not fail me:

I rest in Thy protecting arm.

6. My loved ones, rest securely,

For God this night will surely

From peril guard your heads.

Sweet slumbers may He send you

And bid His hosts attend you

And through the night watch o'er your beds.

Notes:

Hymn #554 from _The Lutheran Hymnal_

Text: Ps. 139: 11

Author: Paul Gerhardt, 1648, cento

Translated by: composite

Titled: Nun ruhen alle Waelder

Composer: Heinrich Isaak, c. 1490

Tune: O Welt, ich muss dich lassen

Richard Lyall

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/475476#Comment_475476

Hi Charles ... I spent an amazing year in Canada from '08 - '09 in Hamilton, ON. I shall never forget it.

"And he shall have dominion from sea to sea, from the river to the ends of the earth."

Milford Charles Murray

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/475481#Comment_475481

Richard! *smile* They might just possibly change that to "from sea to sea to sea" because of the Artic Ocean! I live in Oshawa, just East of Toronto We'll see! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Mari_Usque_Ad_Mare

Bob Pritchett

Richard, I'm sorry we've offended you.

In the past we've offered compensation for filling out big surveys; I didn't even know we were sending this one out, and apparently no coupon or value was offered.

So I completely understand if you ignore it. I ignore surveys that don't add value for me -- even when they do try to pay me! I kept the $2:

http://bobpritchett.com/2008/06/how_can_this_survey_mean_anyth/

On the other hand, when Sirius XM (satellite radio provider) sent me a survey with no compensation, I gladly filled it out -- because I want them to listen to me and improve their product offerings in the way I'd like! And I have no interest in increasing their costs; I want it to be cheaper, not more because of the cost of market research. I'm willing -- for free! -- to tell them to stop playing those acoustic 'in studio exclusives' that prove my favorite overly-produced-singers can't actually sing... :-)

(BTW, I did get your email -- I just hadn't gotten the time to write a detailed response yet, and saw essentially the same thing here, so I'm responding publicly.)

Everything we do at Logos is 'mixed purpose.' We make a product to sell, to make money. We pay our bills, and hopefully make a reasonable profit. But our product is a great deal, valued by many users, and does help people study the Bible. These things aren't exclusive. And while it's possible to pursue one goal at the cost of the other, I think we've done a good job for 20 years balancing things. (Or else we'd be out of business!)

You make it sound like something sneaky:

"this is a business trying to get free marketing information on the back of its customers' goodwill."

How is this sneaky / unusual / in-any-way-remarkable? Who doesn't want free info from their customers / users? What business doesn't want to serve customers better, and what customer doesn't want better service / offerings / products? What company doesn't mine its web logs, inbound search queries, sales transactions? What company doesn't ask its customers everything it can?

I never understood this 'they're getting my info!' fear... I would gladly give everyone my interests / marketing-info -- I want less junk mail I'll throw out, and more mail offering me things I want to know about! Send me geeky catalogs; stop mailing me catalogs for childrens clothes now that my kids are in college!

With all that said... I guess everyone sees things differently. And, being a business, if no one responds to our survey, we'll try again with compensation attached.

As for you... well, I don't know much about the graphic design market, but I can tell you I read:

Serifs & Sans

Smashing Magazine

Smoking Designers

The Visual News

Typography

dsgnWrld

(all via Flipboard)

and I always liked Before & After Magazine, though I no longer subscribe. I don't follow any designers on Facebook or Twitter. I do read the Graphic Design section via the Zite app.

I don't watch or listen to any graphic design TV or radio. (Is there any? That would be cool.)

We use Adobe's apps in most cases, and I do check Font Squirrel once in a while, where we source most of the free fonts for Proclaim.

Milford Charles Murray

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/475526#Comment_475526

Peace, Bob! *smile*

Thank you very much for your pleasant and very helpful reply to Richard! And to all of us since this subject has been introduced into our "community."

We've been chatting together about various things since the days of the Old Logos Newsgroups! Also, I thank God for the sense of humour He has given you which I'm sure is often "strained" as the days get longer and the work gets heavier. Well-Done, Bob! Indeed! You "hang on" in there very well! *smile*

Bruce Dunning

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/475539#Comment_475539

Bob, I admire your courage and honesty to respond. Thanks for taking time. I'm not sure why I completed the survey but I think it is because I want to support Logos as I'm able. It did feel a bit one-sided though.

Richard Lyall

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/475542#Comment_475542

Hi Bob …

Thanks for taking the time to respond. I love the openness of the forums and the arena it offers for a frank exchange of views.

Let me say first off – I love Logos products and I regularly brag about them to people. I showed the Android app to a Bible teacher at a class tonight – split panes and highlights and everything and I recommended he get it from the App store for his iPad. And I’m really not after freebies – if you offer me any on the back of this, I’ll be embarrassed, and insist you donate to a good cause instead.

Also I’m really not offended – it’s not a personal as that, but I was a bit annoyed by the tone of the survey, as I read it anyways. It has been interesting to hear different perspectives and my own view is just one in the crowd. In turn let me apologise if my choice of words has caused offence.

A few quick points in response first:

Logos is “mixed purpose”. No problem with that. I do that too with my Christian clients – I sell the best design services I can.
Logos seeks additional sales from existing customers. No problem with that either. That’s good business. I sometimes contact existing clients to see if they need any more work doing.
Logos seeks to maximise its assets and mine its data to increase sales. Still no problem with that, as already expressed. I have dropped one area of business as it wasn’t profitable for me.
Logos seeks to learn as much about its customers as possible. Yup. Still no problem here – I do that too.
Nor is it anything related to “they’re getting my info” fear.

And unlike the SiriusXM example, this was not a “help us improve our offering” type survey (which as you say can be used to express your dissatisfaction). This was a “help us improve our reach” survey.

It comes down to the (perceived) tone of the survey. Words on a screen don’t communicate clearly and can be misread, granted. But this seemed a bit cheeky, rather than “sneaky” – was this an attempt to get some great marketing info for free or not, I asked myself, without incentive or reward. That’s me with my business head on. An incentive, however small, says “we value your time and information” but it all seemed a bit blunt, or maybe it was composed without enough thought.

And I could have just ignored it, as some respondents suggested, but in a spirit of honest exchange, I decided to toss my thoughts into the ring.

And I do want Logos to succeed, for many reasons, including my own heavy investment in its products!

Now that you have filled out my survey, I will fill out the Logos one, right now in fact, as promised, but to be honest I’m not that much into Christian media so not sure if I can help much, but I’ll do my best.

Best wishes
Richard

Richard Lyall

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/475557#Comment_475557

Survey completed. I'd try to get an advert into the Brochures for some of our Christian conferences like Spring Harvest, New Wine etc (all on the web), and contact theological colleges.

UPDATE: In fact Spring Harvest Word Alive conference is even better as there is a strong focus on Bible teaching there. Also the programme for the Keswick Convention (July\Aug) as there is a strong emphasis on Bible Teaching there too.

Find out from those organisations who runs their bookstalls as you might be able to get them to carry some of your boxed products.

Milford Charles Murray

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/475560#Comment_475560

Peace, Richard and Bob and Bruce and all!

From Phillips paraphrase of Romans 12 - When I think of the bond that we have in this Logos Family which grows and matures as time moves on, I feel that this particular passage is very apropos for our future together. (If only we could get this in Logos!!! *smile* )

CHAPTER 12

We have seen God's mercy and wisdom: how shall we respond?

12:1-2 - With eyes wide open to the mercies of God, I beg you, my brothers, as an act of intelligent worship, to give him your bodies, as a living sacrifice, consecrated to him and acceptable by him. Don't let the world around you squeeze you into its own mould, but let God re-mould your minds from within, so that you may prove in practice that the plan of God for you is good, meets all his demands and moves towards the goal of true maturity.

12:3-8 - As your spiritual teacher I give this piece of advice to each one of you. Don't cherish exaggerated ideas of yourself or your importance, but try to have a sane estimate of your capabilities by the light of the faith that God has given to you all. For just as you have many members in one physical body and those members differ in their functions, so we, though many in number, compose one body in Christ and are all members of one another. Through the grace of God we have different gifts. If our gift is preaching, let us preach to the limit of our vision. If it is serving others let us concentrate on our service; if it is teaching let us give all we have to our teaching; and if our gift be the stimulating of the faith of others let us set ourselves to it. Let the man who is called to give, give freely; let the man who wields authority think of his responsibility; and let the man who feels sympathy for his fellows act cheerfully.

Let us have real Christian behaviour

12:9 - Let us have no imitation Christian love. Let us have a genuine break with evil and a real devotion to good.

12:10 - Let us have real warm affection for one another as between brothers, and a willingness to let the other man have the credit.

12:11 - Let us not allow slackness to spoil our work and let us keep the fires of the spirit burning, as we do our work for God.

12:12 - Base your happiness on your hope in Christ. When trials come endure them patiently, steadfastly maintain the habit of prayer.

12:13 - Give freely to fellow-Christians in want, never grudging a meal or a bed to those who need them.

12:14 - ... as for those who try to make your life a misery, bless them. Don't curse, bless.

12:15 - Share the happiness of those who are happy, the sorrow of those who are sad.

12:16 - Live in harmony with each other. Don't become snobbish but take a real interest in ordinary people. Don't become set in your own opinions.

12:17 - Don't pay back a bad turn by a bad turn, to anyone. Don't say "it doesn't matter what people think", but see that your public behaviour is above criticism.

12:18 - As far as your responsibility goes, live at peace with everyone.

12:19 - Never take vengeance into your own hands, my dear friends: stand back and let God punish if he will. For it is written: 'Vengeance is mine. I will repay'.

12:20-21 - ... these are God's words: 'Therefore if your enemy hungers, feed him; if he thirsts, give him a drink; for in so doing you will heap coals of fire on his head'. Don't allow yourself to be overpowered with evil. Take the offensive - overpower evil by good!

Bruce Dunning

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/475580#Comment_475580

That s very pastoral Milford. Well said. Good choice of paraphrases too. Phillips is one of my favorites and look forward to the day Logos carries it too.

Bob Pritchett

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/475557#Comment_475557

It comes down to the (perceived) tone of the survey.

I'll look into this myself. As we get larger it's hard for me to review every piece of copy we produce. (I don't!) I have a lot of it sent by me to give a quick once-over as I'm able, but I can't hold things up. And I agree that sometimes it's just subtle word choice that sets the tone (and sometimes we're justdoing the wrong thing!). I'll look into this.