Logos 4 frustration
Having used WORDsearch in its various incarnation (now at version 8) I thought that I would try out Logos to see what the differences were.
I wish I hadn't bothered.
I cannot say how disappointed I am.
It just does not live up to the expectations which were raised when I
browsed the web site.
I purchased the Bible Study Library (LE) version
and was absolutely AMAZED at the size of the download files - almost 6 G
bytes ! And there was no warning on the web site about this size. Good
job I have a cable connection or I would still be downloading at Christmas !
Once the installation finished the program ran.
What a surprise. Not a Windows GUI, not a Mac GUI, but an odd mixture of
both. Uggghhhhh ! It looks as if various programmers had been working
quite independently of each other and then their work has been cobbled together.
I really did expect something a bit better and "finished" and
professional than that.
And so to actually using the program - well actually it is after about 20 seconds delay that the program actually displays the opening page.
Great. There is a link on the home page to the Lectionary. Oh no ! It
insists on opening the Catholic Lectionary, and I can't find any way to
get it to display the Revised Common Lectionary when the link is clicked.
In fact, apart from being able to add icons to the shortcuts bar (and
they are not very informative) there doesn't seem to be much in the way
of actual customization I can use, even using the tools menu.
Well, surely opening and closing windows will be quick - after all I do
have a high spec desktop PC with lots of memory and disk space. Well, no. Thinks - has the
program crashed on me, for there is a considerable delay both in opening
and closing windows.
Try a search, which on the web site is said to be lightening fast. Well,
no. A new window opens, lots of activity, the scroll bar moving about is
intensely annoying. And when things finally settle down it takes for ever
to actually scroll down and use the results. And when I select an entry
I have no control over where the reference etc opens.
And those stupid pop ups ! Good gracious. They appear everywhere. That
really is an annoying overkill.
Try double clicking a name or word. Nothing happens - er, oh I see, the
famous delay. Yes, there's the result.
OK. So I have a Bible open at a passage, say one of the Lectionary
passages for this weekend. Try a passage guide. It displays with the
reference, but then I have to click the arrow icon to get it to do anything.
Now go and get a cup of coffee while it chunters through a search
routine. Ah, that's better, nothing like a refreshing break - well, actually quite a long break. Has it finished yet ? Yippee ! Let's try one
of the references displayed, say a handout for congregational use. What
? A new window ? And why such a delay ?
I think you get my message. The program is so full of inconsistencies
and delays that to work with it becomes more and more frustrating.
I am seriously thinking of kicking it into touch and returning to my trusty WORDsearch program.
Comments
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Stanley, when did you purchase? The download size (4.85GB) has been next to the "buy now" button for a while...
anyway, if you're truly disappointed and don't plan on sticking it out, they wil give you a refund0 -
Watch out Gordon, your treading on dangerous ground in this forum. There are some extemely loyal (blindly) customers here.
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Gordon Tatler said:
I am seriously thinking of kicking it into touch and returning to my trusty WORDsearch program.
Perhaps that is your best course of action. No sense in getting an ulcer using a system you hate. I understand that Logos has a 30-day money back policy.
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Shawn Drewett said:
Watch out Gordon, your treading on dangerous ground in this forum. There are some extemely loyal (blindly) customers here.
thanks for equating patience and loyalty with blindness. [:(]
Robert Pavich
For help go to the Wiki: http://wiki.logos.com/Table_of_Contents__
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It's just that every single person that expresses frustration, confusion or disappointment with L4 invariably gets "corrected" as to what a great product they really have and that they have no reason to be "negative." I realize I can be a pain myself but I hate subjectivity.
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Damian McGrath said:
The download size (4.85GB) has been next to the "buy now" button for a while...
Just want to make two comments here.
1. When someone buys a program, they are usually excited and will not necessarily pay attention to the download size, especially since I am unaware of any software program that would require anyone to download such large files as Logos needs in order to run. As well, when I first downloaded the program, there was no such information on the size of the download. Also, I think the download size of 4.85 GB is amazingly small compared to what this forum has reported...others have downloaded twice as much and mine itself was 10 GB. Therefore, it would be wise of logos to make sure the warning of the download size is very clear to see and in various places so it would be very hard to miss.
2. Some of the frustration of this user is due to a lack of a user manual. So it is not possible to look up in a booklet how to do things in the program. The website provides videos. And they are helpful and great. But a manual would also be helpful to many people since many probably do not want to take the time to sit through a video. I know the forum has produced a FAQ, but it is no manual and incomplete, and is user generated with some input from logos employees. It is not an official manual by any means.
These two facts are going to continue to frustrate new users, especially given the price tag on the product.
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Shawn Drewett said:
It's just that every single person that expresses frustration, confusion or disappointment with L4 invariably gets "corrected" as to what a great product they really have and that they have no reason to be "negative." I realize I can be a pain myself but I hate subjectivity.
I can see where past history could lead to this conclusion. Hopefully we are moving past that now. One of the points of this forum is to get correct information out there.I would argue that if any commenter, positive or negative, posts something that is false, rather then leaving it unanswered the correct information should be given if for nothing else then future searchers looking for answers. It should certainly not be presented as "you should like this solution or your are wrong" but to say "have you considered this" seems only reasonable to me.
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I'm surprised. I find it difficult to even compare WORDsearch with Logos 4. They're in different categories, in my opinion.
At any rate, every frustration you mentioned is easily remedied. For example, you can set Logos 4 to open to where you left it, and not use the home page. I'm not sure why your having so many performance problems. Do you have a capable computer? Logos 4 is hard on older machines. The only significant delay I have is with the home page as it interacts with the internet. My passage guides (which I've customized to be exactly what I want) are snappy. And the the searches are extreemly fast. Yes, there is an issue with too many hits, but you could narrow your search criteria.
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Gordon Tatler said:
And there was no warning on the web site about this size.
Download sizes can be found at http://www.logos.com/support/techfaq
Gordon Tatler said:I think you get my message. The program is so full of inconsistencies
and delays that to work with it becomes more and more frustrating.It certainly doesn't seem to fit what you expected, and perhaps doesn't fit your particular style of study. Some of your frustrations I agree with, such as the speed at which some things move, and some I disagree with, such as the UI, I love it. And I always view the opportunity to get another cup of coffee as a positive :-) I doubt the UI will radically change in the future but I believe speed improvements will, I've already seen some in the current Beta. Either way I hope whichever tool you use in the future will be the one that most benefits you in getting into the scriptures.
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Shawn Drewett said:
It's just that every single person that expresses frustration, confusion or disappointment with L4 invariably gets "corrected" as to what a great product they really have and that they have no reason to be "negative." I realize I can be a pain myself but I hate subjectivity.
Shawn,
no harm no foul...
I just get frustrated at the fact that instead of asking for help or stating things in a more subjective way....the posts like this are littered with "blanket prounouncements" about "how logos is"
I've read many posts were new users were disappointed even to the point of returning the product...but they were able to state their issues in a clear, concise, and non-hyperbolic way.
For myself, I would never buy a piece of software....use it for 10 minutes...prounounce it crap, and THEN go to the support forums WHERE PEOPLE ARE ACTUALLY USING THE PRODUCT SUCCESSFULLY and trash it...
I'd just uninstall and get my money back OR give it a few more days OR ask for help.
Robert Pavich
For help go to the Wiki: http://wiki.logos.com/Table_of_Contents__
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Shawn,
I think we all have had our frustrations, but because of the way Logos has come through in the past, and has keep their commitments to improve their product over the years, I trust them, and those of us who have had a longer relationship with Logos want to convey that sense of trust for new customers. It is worth it!
Most of the complaints are things scheduled to be addressed by the second quarter of next year or sooner, In the meantime new enhancements continue to be made to the program that were not part of what they promised us, they do listen to their customers and their needs. Logos I believe is clearly the best bible software out there right now, and I have invested in the Logos platform because I believe I can trust them to deliver on there promises to us and keep Logos number one in bible studies for the future, thereby keeping my investment safe.
Bobby Terhune
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I'm afraid I agree with the original poster to a large degree and I've upgraded from L3. L4 doesn't perform nearly as well for me. The popups are annoying, especially in the Library pane. Not being able to use the scroll bar is driving me batty. I'm still not sure I like the way text displays now.
There are things that I do like. I like the homepage/newspaper idea. I like the +tabs feature. I love the pronouciation addin in the tools menu. The infographics are really cool. The Bible Word Study feature is also great. And to be able to use that on my ipod touch is great.
So, for me, there's good and bad. Hopefully, the bad will get better quick. And yes, we do need to allow others to express their frustrations. It's okay to offer solutions but there's no reason to try to convince someone that a bad experience is not as bad as they think it is. Overall, I think the people of this forum are trying to help. And that's a good thing.
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Gordon M Johnson said:
I'm surprised. I find it difficult to even compare WORDsearch with Logos 4. They're in different categories, in my opinion.
Gordon (and others),
I currently use BOTH WORDsearch 8 and Logos 4 (& 3). I recently saw the newest "incarnation" of WORDsearch (9) and it uses some of the very same characteristics of Logos 3 (resource associations (although I don't recall if they are called that in WS)). Logos 4 uses some of the same characteristics of WS 8 (and previous), i.e., tabbed panes.
The learning curve is very high on any new program. It would be nice if they included a working instruction guide, but they don't, but they do give us videos to watch and learn from. Logos' videos are very well done and after watching them a few times, we can start to catch the way things work. WORDsearch, on the other hand, allows for some "hands on training" with them ONLINE and a conference call. Each of these instruction venues is valuable, depending on which way you learn (watching or doing).
Don't give up the ship just yet. There is plenty of learning ahead and the ride might get a little bumpy at times, but I would encourage you to "stay the course..."
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Hi all,
When I read posts like Gordon's, I immediately go back to beta testing days when I first saw L4. My reaction was probably far worse than Gordon's and other first timers who seem to post and air out their frustrations, yes, and negativity. And I expressed it and received encouragement and grace. Thankfully!!! So, I stuck with it, mellowed out and eventually liked it. (I even remember being somewhat ashamed of being so vocal and negative.)
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Gordon,
I share your frustration and as a long time Logos user and supporter I have a deep sense of betrayal. I the past I have not hesitated in singing Logos’ praise and recommending it to everyone I meet, but the years of trust I had built up with Logos were shattered the first week it was launched. This without a doubt the worst product launch Logos has ever done. As you mentioned they do not provide enough information about the long download times and indexing times. It is not good enough to have it on the tech support page, it needs to be right up front on the product page in big bold letters, and not just download sizes, but estimated download times. In this way customers can know right up front what to expect. I had no idea that my download would take over 30 hours! To compound this documentation is lacking. I have had to spend way too much time on these forums just to learn how to use this product. But worst of all, the product was released basically in beta form.
Having said all that, now that you have L4 I would like to encourage you not to get a refund, but to give it time to become the product it should have been at it release date. I see in it the makings of a great bible study software package. To lower my level of frustration I think of my upgrade as a good deal on L3 books and the privilege to participate in the Logos 4 Beta program. Until the last of the missing features are added in the second quarter of 2010, L4 is nothing more than beta software to me. This mind set has lowered my frustration level greatly and I am finding that I am liking L4 more and more as I use it.
As for Logos the company, I still trust them. They have been too good to me for too long for me to not give them a second chance. I am not looking for them to publically admit that they made a mistake by rushing the release, but I am looking to them to do everything in their power to correct this situation and I am confident that they will do just this. By June of 2010, I am sure you will be glad that you purchased L4.
Be aware that part of the speed issue is that L4 is built for the future. System X (L3) was slow when it was released, but all of our computers grew into it. Do be aware that L4 is very demanding on hardware. You may not agree with Logos’ decision on this, but they had to make some choice. I personally think they made the right choice.
Finally, please ignore all those who are telling you to stop complaining and get a refund. I realize that your post was a cry for a reason to hang on and keep using L4. I am sure that your concerns and the concerns of others are being heard by Logos are being used to improve L4. Don’t let those who are the self-proclaimed thought police of this forum drive you off. They make excuses for themselves by saying that they are only responding to inflammatory language. There was nothing inflammatory about your language, only frustrated, yet they basically told you to shut up and take a hike.
Because of responses like that I was about to give up on Logos and take a hike myself, but then I realized I was reacting to overzealous users, not Logos itself. When Logos employees have posted on this forum they have never once said anything remotely as insensitive as this. I wish these people would consider that their responses might be doing Logos’ reputation more harm than any of the post they are responding to.
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'P. Keith Larson said:Don’t let those who are the self-proclaimed thought police of this forum drive you off.
Pot...meet kettle, kettle...meet pot
PS: nobody told anyone to take a hike... you may not like the advice given to "get a refund if that's what's necessary" but at least represent it accurately before engaging in your own version of "thought policing"
Robert Pavich
For help go to the Wiki: http://wiki.logos.com/Table_of_Contents__
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Yesterday I ordered an upgrade for my MS Word. I am upgrading from Word 97 all the way up to 2007! [<:o)] I am fully expecting it will be different--that menus will be changed and things will work differently. Uh, that's why I am upgrading. Some stuff I'll like, some I won't. If I am not willing to trudge through a learning curve I'll just stay with Word 97.
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Keith! I can't tell you how much I enjoyed your post! As a Beta tester you are qualified to have an "objective" opinion and your openness and empathy for frustrated users is so refreshing!
I paticularly liked these comments :
"Don’t let those who are the self-proclaimed thought police of this forum drive you off. They make excuses for themselves by saying that they are only responding to inflammatory language." and:
"I was reacting to overzealous users, not Logos itself. When Logos employees have posted on this forum they have never once said anything remotely as insensitive as this. I wish these people would consider that their responses might be doing Logos’ reputation more harm than any of the post they are responding to."
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Hi Keith
Your post said it perfectly.
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I think L4 is a great product. Released early? I'd have to agree. Am I frustrated? I was, but now (after using it for a few weeks) I am liking it more and more.
If a person strongly dislikes a product they recently purchased, what is wrong with suggesting a refund? (I don't get it?)
I would suggest the person to stick with it for a couple of weeks (if it is still w/in the 30 day refund period) and then determine if it is right "for them".
I'd imagine we'd all produce a bit more "spiritual fruit" if we bent those fingers we so like to point at others at ourselves.
If you wouldn't say it to a person's face (w/o being convicted about it) then why type it?
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Jeremiah Daniel Morris said:
If you wouldn't say it to a person's face (w/o being convicted about it) then why type it?
This is a great rule Jeremiah!
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Shawn Drewett said:
Keith! I can't tell you how much I enjoyed your post! As a Beta tester you are qualified to have an "objective" opinion and your openness and empathy for frustrated users is so refreshing!
Shawn,
I was not a participate in the L4 Beta. I was only saying that the product feels like a beta right now to me and to keep my frustration level down I am treating it as such.
I have a beta test for Norton, before they became a part of Symantec, and participated in the L3 public betas and never had a problem with crashed systems and software that ran slowly or not well. I knew beforehand what I was signing up for. When I purchase an official release I have higher expectations. I have been encouraged that several of the offical beta tests have said that they did not feel the product was ready for general release and at least one I know of has called the current version "beta software."
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Thanks Keith for your very interesting reply. At least my original post has brought some responses (even if a little harsh), and I now feel that I am not alone in my frustrations.
To put everyone in the picture, before recent retirement I was responsible for over 100 networked desktops and laptops, and the installation of dozens of programs of varying complexity, so I believe that I am well qualified to comment on software.
Of course there are always those who will not accept any criticism of their favourite program, but, like you, I wish they were a little bit more polite, and I would firmly agree with the comments in the post by Jeremiah :-
I'd imagine we'd all produce a bit more "spiritual fruit" if we bent those fingers we so like to point at others at ourselves.
If you wouldn't say it to a person's face (w/o being convicted about it) then why type it?
I shall persevere with the program for a little longer, and will eventually re-post here with my decision to continue or "jump ship".
Thanks to you all.
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Gordon Tatler said:
I shall persevere with the program for a little longer, and will eventually re-post here with my decision to continue or "jump ship".
I hope I don't miss that post. I'm very interested to hear if your impression stays the same or changes.
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Hi Gordon
I have already stated that Keith's comments are very well written. I now want to just say again, Logos is basically one of the best companies I have every dealt with. I know past performance does not always translate into future performance, but a lot of us have good reason to continue to believe Logos has been and continues to listen to constructive criticism and changes accordingly. L4 is a great product. And it is going to be even more incredible once it is completed midway through 2010.
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Jeremiah Daniel Morris said:
If a person strongly dislikes a product they recently purchased, what is wrong with suggesting a refund? (I don't get it?)
On the surface nothing. But as a knee jerk, stock response to everyone who is expressing frustration with the program. I think Gordon knew he could return the program, what he was needing was for someone acknowledge that he was not totally off base in being frustrated (which you did) and to give him a reason to stick it out (which you did). I am not happy with the language some people have chosen to express their frustrations, but reacting to that language, rather than the root issue is rarely productive.
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For those that haven't read them, Bob Pritchett discusses the background of many of the issues in these posts:
http://community.logos.com/forums/p/4318/35672.aspx#35672
http://community.logos.com/forums/p/3804/29352.aspx#29352
And this twitter post gives insight, too, I think (actually, the article he links to does):
MacBook Pro (2019), ThinkPad E540
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Gordon Tatler said:
What a surprise. Not a Windows GUI, not a Mac GUI, but an odd mixture of both. Uggghhhhh ! It looks as if various programmers had been working quite independently of each other and then their work has been cobbled together. I really did expect something a bit better and "finished" and professional than that.
Actually... Logos has done a great job on the interface. They are using the latest technology and they have a very clean, well designed and modern UI. I believe they are using WPF which is the latest and greatest from Microsoft. Not only is the UI well designed and well implemented, but we have the assurance that they are using a technology that will be around for years. I'm a Microsoft developer myself and this is exactly were Logos should be at this time. It took a lot of courage for them to rewrite this product from the ground up (not an easy thing form software companies to do) and they did really good job. Were there glitches? You bet. But who would honestly expect differently.
It makes me feel really good when I know my $1000+ library will be working for more than a couple years. Also the developers working on it will be motivated and happy because they are not only working on a great product but they are also working with the latest tools and technologies. It's hard to keep good developers when you don't move forward, and thats bad news for all of us.
As for moving from a different product, users are usually not happy. People get set in their ways and don't like change.
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James Macleod said:
I believe they are using WPF which is the latest and greatest from Microsoft.
Logos has stated that this is what they are using. Don't know anything about it...but the acronym looks familiar :-)
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WPF is Windows Presentation Foundation. Bob's explanation sounds to be the simplest way to explain it. The techo-jargon is beyond me. My brother is a programmer, I'm not.
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William J Cook said:
WPF is Windows Presentation Foundation. Bob's explanation sounds to be the simplest way to explain it.
knowing the acronym is enough to satisfy me :-)
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Well at the risk of being called "thought police", I disagree with at least some of the things Keith says. I love the program, it is a gigantic improvement on L3. My sermon prep time would be cut in 1/2, except I am finding all this new info that was in my library before, it was just not as obvious, and took much more time to discover and use. And I feel that it has made the last 3 sermons I've preached maybe the best of the year. It does have a learning curve, and if you don't watch the videos, your learning curve will be much longer. Some of the videos produced by forum posters have been at least as informative as the logos ones.
There are a lot of tools in L4, and they are overwhelming, and sometimes in your face (pop ups), especially as you learn the basics of the program.
I will also note that I don't hate Vista, although 7 is better, so maybe I have a large patience allowance for software. And all software has a learning curve. I run xp, vista, 7, and ubuntu on our 9 computer network at work, and each has had it's learning curve, along with work, excel, and openoffice.org's version of those programs. It takes time and effort to use any program to it's potential. (But I still can't program the dvr - but that is for another thread.)
I also don't see saying. "if you don't like it get a refund" as insulting. If you really hate the program, then ask for your money back. If I was talking to someone in person about this, I'd say, wait for it to index, watch the videos, read the forum (try to ignore the abnormally large amount of name calling) and if you still hate it, ask for a refund.
Gordon, I hope you can filter the "we'd like to help" from the rest (that is so hard for me to do), and either learn to like L4 and it's abilities, or be grateful for Logos return policy.
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My experience with L4 hasn't been really smooth either, but after using the interface for a few weeks now, I have been able to appreciate it.
The more I use it, the more I seem to like it. My advice would be to give it a little time to sink in, you might grow to like it after all.
Even though I like this new version, it doesn't mean that I'm not having some issues with it. The main issue I have is still with the read aloud option. I haven't been able to get it to work the way I want it with L4. I depend on the speech a lot because my vision is not so good any more. I have spend money buying some good quality text to speech voices, but am a little disappointed that they are not working in L4. It works in L3 though (I do hope they fix this soon).
The other issue I have with L4 is the greek audio new testament. It's not working for me either. I have read every post in this forum about it I think, but still couldn't get it to work. I read it only works in NA27, checked it out, doesn't work. I read I needed a file "elnt.lbxaud", checked it out, seems I don't have it, but the updating always say there are no new updates. I tried "update now" and "update resources" also, nothing. In L3 it works perfectly. I even tried to do a scan command on the L3 resources folder, but also nothing. And my licenses are also synched. I read someone saying that after he upgraded to vista, it started to work. That would be disappointing because I have windows xp only.
Another issue I have is, that in all those videos that I watched, I see people having multiple pages of the homepage. I never get more than 1 page of information. I never see the logos blogs or the logos news. And I'm connected to the internet and have all the options on in the customize menu of the homepage. Maybe someone knows the answer to this one.
I am one of those new users (only 1 year) but still, I wait patiently for L4 to become a better product. And despite of these problems I still like the program.
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Henry Finkle said:
Another issue I have is, that in all those videos that I watched, I see people having multiple pages of the homepage. I never get more than 1 page of information. I never see the logos blogs or the logos news. And I'm connected to the internet and have all the options on in the customize menu of the homepage. Maybe someone knows the answer to this one.
Use the page down/page up keys. But it can be very slow.
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MIchael, you make several excellent points. LOGOS is powerful, and everything that is powerful needs time, patience and effort to learn. The other side of that coin is that sometimes you do not need (or want) the power and a simpler tool is appropriate (never try to cut your steak with a chain saw!!!!). I find LOGOS to be great, and I am only a raw beginner with it. Other's milage may vary, as they say.
LOGOS 3 and 4 are both powerful and different. There is a learning curve that you must either decide to climb or to blow off. I have several very smart friends to whom I would never recommend LOGOS. They don't prepare sermons or teach classes and/or they are not computer savvy. If one of them accidentally bought LOGOS and asked my advice I would suggest that they switch to something else (I used to love e-sword and still miss the topic notes) . Unfortunately, in the fora it is hard to know if the complainer is just in need of a bit of encouragement or is so far over his head that getting out of the pool is the best choice. Our stories of the work required to get into LOGOS and the rewards we found can help them make the decision to stay with it. The advice that it is not for everyone gives them permission to switch to something else if that is the right choice.
Just remember to temper all of it with lots of love and we'll be OK.
Bob - 17" MBP quad 2.3GHz 4GB and iMAC
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"I share your frustration and as a long time Logos user and supporter I have a deep sense of betrayal."
Wow. It's a piece of software.
"deep betrayal" because they changed a product in a way that you don't like. . .? Logos did nothing unethical or, well, do anything to justify such an over reach in language.
If you truly feel "deeply" betrayed then you should, for your own good, move on.
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Please let us know if you feel a "deep sense of betrayal" at the changes.
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MarkSwaim said:Damian McGrath said:
The download size (4.85GB) has been next to the "buy now" button for a while...
Just want to make two comments here.
1. When someone buys a program, they are usually excited and will not necessarily pay attention to the download size, especially since I am unaware of any software program that would require anyone to download such large files as Logos needs in order to run. As well, when I first downloaded the program, there was no such information on the size of the download. ...
Mark,
I'm aware that the size of the file was not always displayed next to the purchase button. That's why I asked Gordon when he purchased. I did not want to go off on one of my rants about not providing the purchaser with adequate information only to discover that he bought the product last week.
I must say that I think the size of the download listed next to the purchase button does alleviate some of my complaints in the past... Sadly, there is no warning that old files will be updated which will increase the download considerably for many users. Nor is there explicit information upon purchase about what will be involved in installing... One has to go searching for it...
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P. Keith Larson said:Jeremiah Daniel Morris said:
If a person strongly dislikes a product they recently purchased, what is wrong with suggesting a refund? (I don't get it?)
On the surface nothing. But as a knee jerk, stock response to everyone who is expressing frustration with the program. I think Gordon knew he could return the program, what he was needing was for someone acknowledge that he was not totally off base in being frustrated (which you did) and to give him a reason to stick it out (which you did). I am not happy with the language some people have chosen to express their frustrations, but reacting to that language, rather than the root issue is rarely productive.
Keith, I cannot be sure that Gordon knew a refund was available. He did not know about the large download so why would he have known about the refund? This was his third post in 15 minutes expressing a desire to go back to WordSearch. I wanted him to know that he could get a refund if he was that unhappy.
As you know, I usually do acknowledge that many frustrations are not off target...
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Wow.... there were alot of good points made in this thread and alot of emoting as well. Here is my humble and proverbial 2 cents.
I have used several Bible software products through the years including PC Study Bible, BibleWorks and QuickVerse. After much thought I decided that Logos was offering an amazing and long standing product and I juamped on the Logos bus with version 3 in Nov of 2007... WOW!
My usuage level is somewhere between intermediate and advanced, meaning I need a system that offer loads of resources for critical study as well as having adequate language tools for exegesis and original language study. Based on this, I felt then and feel now that Logos 3 and now 4 are without peer overall as far as a study tool. There are programs like BibleWorks that arguable handle language study as good or better but lack in the library arena [although I realize that they are not seeking to be a library based tool]. But no other tool does all that Logos does as well as Logos does it in my opinion.
There is also an added issue of the Logos company and their superior handling of customers. I have NEVER seen any company from the CEO down that is better built to serve the customer.
1. What company offers their high end product on a handshake via no credit check payment plans?
2. What company guarantees that what you buy you will always own even when the product upgrades.... For life?
3. What company offers free engine upgrades for life so that you always know that even 4 computers and 6 Operating Systems from now you will STILL be able to use the product? Logos 8 anyone???
4. What company offers the sheer amounts of resources that Logos offers in this genre of software?
5. What company lets you purchase very reasonable upgrade packages for your resources when the newest version comes out and still allows your older version to work as a standalone [Logos 3 Silver still runs fine even though Logos 4 Platinum is running on the same machine].
Logos even allows you to run this software on muliple machines or multiple OS's for FREE and on the honor system [if I could tolerate the thought of a Mac in my house I might even have Logos installed on the thing]. Try that with any of the other Bible software packages mentioned earlier and you will be quite disappointed.
Based on all of these points and the fact that Logos is definitely leading edge, what power tool do you know that can be lept into in 10 minutes and fully discovered? A power tool offers power rewards and even though I was able to do basic things on both Logos 3 & 4 within minutes it took a much longer time for me to adjust to all it can do.
All this being said Logos is the best bang for the buck, a big blessing and worth the time and money invested to master it. The forums are even free and are loaded with people that enjoy helping to solve these learning curve issues and offer solutions. Even the CEO frequents the place to offer encouragement and great advice.
For those that have a 6 year old computer that they are disappointed won't run with blazing speed on Logos 4, please, are you serious? I say this not as an insult but seriously, are you serious? Even $100 a year tucked away keeps you in a new computer every 5 years, time to upgrade.
All software no matter what genre requires increasingly faster equipment to run it effectively. This is the Word of God my friends, if It can be studied better and faster then a new computer is definitely worth the price of admission.
As for the L4 lauch... sudden, yes. Somewhat buggy... yes. Do I regret buying on day 1.... NO! Although I am missing some of the features that are soon to come I am by no means handicapped by the current L4. Logos 3 is there for the few things I absolutely need now and I seldom spark it up anymore now that I have read these very forums for workarounds.
Logos = Integrity, Value, Power, Lifetime Investment and a better way to study the Word of Life.
What more can be said?
Humbly,
Kevin
Logos 5, Windows & Android perfect together....
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All I can say Kevin is I wish I had said what you said!!! That was a great summation.
I have used Logos for the last about 6 years and the only point I would make is that my D505 Dell Latitude runs LOgos 4 just fine. Would a faster system run it that much faster? Sure, but it isn't critical or a game stopper.
The launch of Logos 4 was sudden, but thanks to Bob's explanation to those of us in the Beta program it made perfect sense. Any new application has a learning curve and you either embrace the change or you don't. We all have a choice in the matter. I will say that the learning curve for Logos 4 from 3 is better than MS Office 2003 to 2007. Wanna talk nightmare?
In Christ,
Ken
Lenovo Yoga 7 15ITL5 Touch Screen; 11th Gen Intel i7 2.8Ghz; 12Gb RAM; 500Gb SDD;WIN 11
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I came on board with version 1, upgraded to Libronix and have not upgraded to Logos 4. I have had many positive contacts with technical support. There are many good additions ahead although they will require technology to be at a level to handle it.
I trust the Logos people.
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Shawn Drewett said:
It's just that every single person that expresses frustration, confusion or disappointment with L4 invariably gets "corrected" as to what a great product they really have and that they have no reason to be "negative." I realize I can be a pain myself but I hate subjectivity.
What nonsense.
What people seem to react to is the tone of the communication rather than its content. The kind of "this is completely cr*p" and "OMG I wish I hadn't bothered" rather than simply setting out their frustrations.
Also, what is unfairly labelled as "corrected" is more often than not a note to say "actually you can do X and here's how" or "it's a bit different to L3".
Sure, there is some whingeing going on, and maybe a little bit of sucking up to Logos on a rare occasion, but seems to me like most responses are constructive and factual rather than corrective.
I don't think this makes me a starry-eyed Logos groupie - it's just that my experience of this forum doesn't match your claim, and I've spent a LOT of time here since the beginning of the beta testing.
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Richard Lyall said:
I don't think this makes me a starry-eyed Logos groupie - it's just that my experience of this forum doesn't match your claim, and I've spent a LOT of time here since the beginning of the beta testing.
+1
Grace & Peace,
Bill
MSI GF63 8RD, I-7 8850H, 32GB RAM, 1TB SSD, 2TB HDD, NVIDIA GTX 1050Max
iPhone 12 Pro Max 512Gb
iPad 9th Gen iOS 15.6, 256GB0 -
OR
edited to delete my insenstive comment
Robert Pavich
For help go to the Wiki: http://wiki.logos.com/Table_of_Contents__
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Wow the longest discussions on here rarely deal with Logos issues and more with who is at fault for not answering correctly. Hmmmm
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DouglasEStephens said:
Not being able to use the scroll bar is driving me batty.
Why can't you use the scroll bar? I've not had a problem.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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MJ. Smith said:DouglasEStephens said:
Not being able to use the scroll bar is driving me batty.
Why can't you use the scroll bar? I've not had a problem.
I've seen this stated a few times, and was wondering the same thing.
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I'm a layperson who uses L3 for personal Bible study. L3 is really too much for my purposes however I would like to enjoy some of the new features listed in the L4 specs. The Greek and Hebrew audio readers intrigue me, and being able to search my whole library seems too easy to be true. I am somewhat afraid of the new Interface but I'll take the time to learn it when the time comes to upgrade. Should I upgrade now or wait and see how it all works out in mid 2010? I do have a new Dell Studio 17 laptop running Windows 7. You seem to be very knowledgeable about both L3 and L4. I would really appreciate your opinion. Thanks, and God Bless, Kevin.
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Kevin Dart said:
I'm a layperson who uses L3 for personal Bible study. L3 is really too much for my purposes however I would like to enjoy some of the new features listed in the L4 specs. The Greek and Hebrew audio readers intrigue me, and being able to search my whole library seems too easy to be true. I am somewhat afraid of the new Interface but I'll take the time to learn it when the time comes to upgrade. Should I upgrade now or wait and see how it all works out in mid 2010? I do have a new Dell Studio 17 laptop running Windows 7. You seem to be very knowledgeable about both L3 and L4. I would really appreciate your opinion. Thanks, and God Bless, Kevin.
My recommendation would be update to L4 now using the free link, testing out some of the features that most interest you (keep in mind some features will not be available to you such as Biblical people/places/things). You will still have full access to L3 and you can see what you think of the new UI without losing a penny.
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