Blog Alert: Incorrect Information!

Just read today's Blog and it says this:

"The new Upgrade Discounter
contains expanded interactive features to help you see what books you
already own, and what new books you’ll get with an upgrade to Logos 4."

That is not entirely true! I just checked again and it still tells me that by upgrading I'll get some books that I already do own. As far as I can tell, this still only compares base packages.

I'm just thinking ahead to all the questions we'll have to answer (again!) about the upgrade page. Please edit this and correct it to reflect the actual scope of the upgrade page. Leaving it as is reduces confidence in your upgrade price calculator.

Edit: Non-included books I own which are marked as new to me by the upgrade page are:

ISBE (revised & original)
Authentic Christianity (Lloyd-Jones: Acts vol1)
Courageous Christianity (Lloyd-Jones Acts vol2)
Victorious Christianity (Lloyd-Jones Acts vol3)
Glorious Christianity (Lloyd-Jones Acts vol4)
Luke Historian and Theologian (Marshall)
On Romans... (Cranfield)
Paul: Apostle of the Free Spirit (Bruce)
Using Illustrations to Preach with Power (Chapell)
Ethical Dilemmas in Church Leadership (Milco)
Lessons in Leadership (Roberts)
Pastoral Leadership for Manhood and Womanhood (Grudem)
Revival (Lloyd-Jones)
The School of Biblical Evangelism (Cameron, Comfort)
Seven Practices of Effective Ministry (Stanley, Joiner, Jones)
Building Strong Families (Rainey)
Take Heart: Daily Devotions... (Wallis)
The Assurance of Our Salvation (Lloyd-Jones Jn17)
The Pleasures of God (Piper)
Kregel Apologetics Collection (7 Vols.)
Idioms of the Greek New Testament, 2nd (Porter)
Light from the Ancient East (Diessman)
Liddell and Scott Greek–English Lexicon

(I'm not even sure how I got some of those!)

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Comments

SteveF

(I'm not even sure how I got some of those!)

Richard, did you perhaps buy the last Christmas BookBuilder volumes? That is how I received the Lloyd-Jones Acts volumes.

Like you, my Upgrade does not take into consideration any of these "extra" purchases both from Logos "Book-Builders", or stand alone purchases, let alone items from official re-sellers.

Having looked at this page before, I do not see ANY improvement and/or reason for a blog, except for the "colored lines" which unfortunately are not all correct.

They are just throwing "gas on the fire" for those already "confused."

Quote: Remember, when you upgrade, you keep all of your existing books, plus you get all the new titles that are highlighted.

The above line is GREAT! That always gets asked on the forums.

QUOTE: Exclusive upgrade discounts are tailored to each individual Logos user.
Your upgrade price takes into consideration the limited time
introductory offer, the base package you already own, your Pre-Pub
purchase history, your overall account history, and more.

They were probably fine until they got to the "overall account history". As you and I both know that is just plain WRONG!

Richard, thank you for your many well-reasoned, charitable answers to so many who seeek help on this forum.

Regards

Steve

TCBlack

Richard,

I noticed the same thing, for instance in one section....

Rich DeRuiter

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/48176#Comment_48176

Richard, did you perhaps buy the last Christmas BookBuilder volumes? That is how I received the Lloyd-Jones Acts volumes.

Not last year, but I did the year before that (or was it the year before that, even).

I have no memory of purchasing the Kregel Apologetics Collection, and it doesn't show up on my order history as such. So maybe it was part of a collection somewhere. Some of the others must have come in some kind of bookbuilder collection, since I'd never buy them otherwise (and they don't show up in my order history either).

Paul Knopf

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/48213#Comment_48213

Same problem here. There are about 20 resources that the discounter said I will get which I already have. Thing is, many of these were purchased on pre-pub from Logos itself. I can see it on my account page, but the upgrade discounter doesn't know about it. I wonder if my discount would have been greater if these were taken into account.

Rich DeRuiter

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/48218#Comment_48218

Same problem here. There are about 20 resources that the discounter said I will get which I already have. Thing is, many of these were purchased on pre-pub from Logos itself. I can see it on my account page, but the upgrade discounter doesn't know about it. I wonder if my discount would have been greater if these were taken into account.

[sigh]

This is why I want Logos to change the blog. (Notice my comment about confidence in the upgrade price calculator above?)

[/sigh]

All your purchases are taken into account by the upgrade discounter. The upgrade display, however does not take that into account. They are two separate entities and use two separate databases.

Russ Quinn

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/48213#Comment_48213

I am having the same problem with my personal upgrade discounter not acknowledging many title from my order history.

Some of the titles that I have previously purchased but are listed as though I don't own them include:

The Dead Sea Scrolls Study Edition
Liddell and Scott Greek-English Lexicon
A Handbook to the Exegesis of the New Testament
Light from the Ancient East
Grammar of the Greek New Testament in Light of Historical Research
A Grammatical Analysis of the Greek New Testament
Idioms of the Greek New Testament, Second Edition
**Not completely sure how this one works out but I have 2218: The Apostolic Fathers in Greek and English (3 Editions, with Morphology) - does this equate to The Apostolic Fathers: Greek Texts and English Translations?
The Dictionary of Historical Theology
John Hunt Desk Reference

Having actually compiled the list, I have to correct my second sentence from "Some" to "None".

These are all individually purchased titles that are clearly listing in my Order History but do not seem to be accounted for in my personal upgrader listing.

Most of these titles were bought as Pre-pubs and also show up in my Pre-Pub Orders Already Shipped list, if that is relevant.

I am thinking about upgrading from Gold to Platinum but wonder if I should wait for these issues to be finally clarified?

Russ Quinn

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/48242#Comment_48242

Although, looking through the list again . . . these purchases probably wouldn't impact upgrade to Platinum much since they are mostly Portfolio titles.

Mostly academic issue for me at this point.

TCBlack

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/48242#Comment_48242

I would like to add that I have confidence in the algorithm being used.

I tallied up the cost to upgrade to the books I don't own individually and it came to $2400.19. Suffice it to say that the actual upgrade price for me right now is considerably less than that.

Rich DeRuiter

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/48242#Comment_48242

I am thinking about upgrading from Gold to Platinum but wonder if I should wait for these issues to be finally clarified?

Logos help! [patience, Richard, patience]

Okay. The upgrader display is not connected to the upgrade price calculation. The upgrade price calculation takes into account all the books you ordered from Logos. The upgrade display only looks at base packages.

They are not connected to each other.

Get it?

Russ Quinn

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/48256#Comment_48256

I would like to add that I have confidence in the algorithm being used.

I tallied up the cost to upgrade to the books I don't own individually and it came to $2400.19. Suffice it to say that the actual upgrade price for me right now is considerably less than that.

Not sure about the algorithm but I definitely agree that these are great bargains even if they don't take into account previous purchases.

Gordon M. Johnson

According to the updater, I will get approximately 380 new volumes if I upgrade to the Portfolio collection, which will cost me $2Gs and some change. That works out to about $5.26 a volume. Not a bad price. The updater estimates the value of those same books at $12,250 which would work out to $32.24 a volume - although I bet the average cost of those volumes would work out to a bit less than that.

At any rate, it is a decent deal. I just don't have a great desire for ANY of the books in the Portfolio that I do not already own - which really surprises me. My pocket book is thankful, though.

Danny Parker

I too have the same experience. I have a number of high dollar and high value products, yet the discounter does not seem to take this into account. It does cause me some concern that this latest view of the discounter does not reflect my actual purchases. Perhaps there really is an error in applying my discount.

My assumption has been that the discounts just take into consideration raw numbers of volumes rather than high value items (this would be my guess). The discontent with the discounting comes because most customers focus on the high dollar value items like Pillar, BECNT, BDAG, etc., rather than the total number of books being provided. A point can be made from both points of view.

Personally, I have no problem with the discount being applied based on the base packages only. I bought the extra high value resources and have gained value in having them. I have not been cheated, and in fact, LOGOS has been fair in their previous pricing. I just don't benefit from these new discounts. It is fine that others can gain those same resources for a greatly discounted price as they upgrade.

However, LOGOS would be best to just leave it there. To state that I should be getting a great personalized discount that considers the previous individual purchases (and seem to make a big deal about this) feels a bit misleading or at least creates an expectation that is not realized. It is this expectation that creates the problem for customers (IMHO). I shouldn't expect to be given the farm by a company who is in the business to make a fair profit. However, the company would be better off not to imply that I should expect to get the farm either. Setting realistic customer expectations should constrain marketing verbage.

My two cents. I am still a happy customer.

Mark

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/48281#Comment_48281

I also see the problems here. I am wondering on a small scale if someone could offer help in one book. For me, the website shows I do not own the Encyclopedia of Judaism V1-5. However, I DO own it. The problem is, I only see the first 3 volumes, not 5 volumes. In L4, it is one file, containing 3 volumes only. Can anyone offer any suggestions as to where the other two volumes are?

In this thread, besides the question I just asked, there seem to be two issues. the first is the algorithm. I think we all have realized the bargain prices being offered regardless. The second issue is how Logos determines what books we own. The calculation used for this is clearly not accurate. That is one reason why I am in favor of having access to a list of all resources, whether in L4 or on the website which can be a running tally of all libronix books regardless of company or where purchased. Some would call this a bibliography. Someone may argue that we have such...it is called a library. But that is not what I am talking about. What we own in our library does not seem to match a master list that logos has somewhere...at least the method they are currently using has a flaw in it.

Rosie Perera

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/48308#Comment_48308

I also see the problems here. I am wondering on a small scale if someone could offer help in one book. For me, the website shows I do not own the Encyclopedia of Judaism V1-5. However, I DO own it. The problem is, I only see the first 3 volumes, not 5 volumes. In L4, it is one file, containing 3 volumes only. Can anyone offer any suggestions as to where the other two volumes are?

I own the Encyclopedia of Judaism too, and in L4, as you point out, it is only one file. It is only one file in L3 too (ENCYCJUD.lbxlls). I haven't figured out where L4 stores its resource files if they are in a different place from L3's. If you look at the beginning of the book, you'll see that the hard cover version is published in five volumes (Vol I, II, III; IV [= Supplement I], and V [= Supplement II]) and also as a single ISBN for the set (containing Vol I, II, III). If you look in Logos at the top of the Table of Contents, there's a tiny footnote asterisk after "Volumes I-V" and the footnote says: "In the Libronix version of the Encyclopaedia of Judaism, the first two supplements have been integrated into the first three volumes of the series for one complete volume." If you use the Contents Pane to navigate through the file, you'll see that you do indeed have all five volumes, but they aren't in sequential order (either in L3 or L4). Look at the reference box at the top of the book as you navigate through to see what volume you're in. Immediately after all the front matter (which is in Volume 1), open up the very first entry under A ("Aggadah in the Halakhah"). You'll see that this is in Vol 4, page 1593. Now go to the beginning of B ("The Biblical Foundations of Judaism"), and you'll see it's in Vol 5, page 2044. The beginning of C is back in Vol 1. More stuff from these volumes and then the beginning of J is in Vol 2. The beginning of P is in Vol 3. So indeed all five volumes are covered. Volume 1 goes from A to I, Volume 2 goes from J to O, Volume 3 goes from P to Z. And Volumes 4 and 5 are apparently scattered around as supplemental entries that were added later. This is the same whether you're in L3 or L4.

Mark

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/48324#Comment_48324

Rosie

Thanks for the help.

SteveF

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/48324#Comment_48324

Dear Rosie:

Install path in Vista:
Vista/Win7 - C:\Users\<your user name>\AppData\Local\Logos4\Data\x1dsklus.tt5\ResourceManager\Resources

In XP:

C:\Documents and Settings\<your user name>\Local Settings\Application Data\Logos4\Data\x1dsklus.tt5\ResourceManager\Resources

NOTE: the folder after "Data" seems to take on a name of its own. Just click on through whatever happens to be in the Data drawer to get to Resource Manager.

Other problem: L4 has re-named many resources. You may stil not be able to figure out what each is.

Steve

Rosie Perera

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/48343#Comment_48343

Install path in Vista:
Vista/Win7 - C:\Users\<your user name>\AppData\Local\Logos4\Data\x1dsklus.tt5\ResourceManager\Resources

Thanks! That was mystifying me. I tried to find it by searching for another copy of a known resource name, but the one I tried came up nil. That must have been one they renamed. Just my luck.

LimJK

Richard,

After reading your post, I ran my Upgrade Calculator .... the following was recommended to me:

The following, I purchased in 2004/2005 over email transaction, not recorded in my purchase history
- BDAG/HALOT Bundle
- Anchor Yale Bible Dictionary
The following, I recently purchased as part of Portfolio LE (Calculator missed these)
- JPS Tanakh Commentary Collection (9 Vols.) [DOWNLOAD]
- Charles Simeon's Horae Homileticae Commentary (21 Vols.) [DOWNLOAD]
The followiing, I do not own
- Anchor Yale Bible (84 Vols.) [DOWNLOAD]
- International Critical Commentary Series CD-ROM - T&T Clark Int'l (53 Vols.) DOWNLOADABLE
- Barth's Church Dogmatics (14 Vols.)
- Lange's Commentary on the Holy Scriptures (63 Vols.)
- WallBuilders American Foundations Digital Library [DOWNLOAD]
- Ariel Ministries Messianic Collection (11 Vols.) [DOWNLOAD]

Clearly, there is a bug in the Upgrade Calculator, from the above, it is clear the Calculator is not based on the License File of my Account.

Rich DeRuiter

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/48365#Comment_48365

Clearly, there is a bug in the Upgrade Calculator, from the above, it is clear the Calculator is not based on the License File of my Account.

Jim to you and to others please, please, please read carefully:

The upgrade price calculator takes into account all your purchase and is reliable.

The upgrade list shown on the web page only takes into consideration your base package.

(The descriptions of the list on the web page and in the blog and the page are inaccurate.)

The reason I wrote that the Blog is inaccurate (note the thread title), is that the blog does not accurately describe what the web page is doing. I know that's the case because of multiple other discussions in this forum, and because of assurances we were given by Bob about the validity of the price calculator.

All of this confusion, even by reading a post intended to point out this inaccuracy is further proof that what I thought would happen actually did.

Please, Logos change this. (Or prove to me that I'm wrong.)

Damian McGrath

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/48416#Comment_48416

All of this confusion, even by reading a post intended to point out this inaccuracy is further proof that what I thought would happen actually did.

Amen Richard. I read the blog post last night (Oz time) and thought, "that's wrong and will lead to confusion" Iwas glad to see your post this morning and then couldn't believe what followed.

The blog is wrong (very poorly worded) and needs to be corrected.

David Langer

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/48416#Comment_48416

It's Jan 1, 2010 -- Logos still has inaccurate information on the Upgrade page. I too have many items listed as "new" to me that have been previously purchased. Even with the assurances given in early December, this gives me pause. Since the page highlights "Books you own" and "Books you get" I am concerned with the many volumes of "Books you get" as previous purchases that are listed differently on the various listings (From Silver - Platinum Levels).

I'd love to purchase an upgrade, but I want an accurate representation of what I have and what I am getting as the basis for the price offered.

Robert Pavich

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/48416#Comment_48416

The upgrade price calculator takes into account all your purchase and is reliable.

The upgrade list shown on the web page only takes into consideration your base package.

Please, Logos change this. (Or prove to me that I'm wrong.)

Richard,

you are exactly right. This is the exact answer I got from Dave Kaplan when I called him to upgrade from silver to Gold.

I quizzed him on my purchases, and he said he was looking at everyone of them in my account file and that THOUGH the "chart" is wrong....but ACTUAL PRICE CALCULATOR shows the data from your specific account and is accurate....

I hope we can put this one to rest soon...[:D]

Rich DeRuiter

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/67686#Comment_67686

It's Jan 1, 2010 -- Logos still has inaccurate information on the Upgrade page. I too have many items listed as "new" to me that have been previously purchased. Even with the assurances given in early December, this gives me pause. Since the page highlights "Books you own" and "Books you get" I am concerned with the many volumes of "Books you get" as previous purchases that are listed differently on the various listings (From Silver - Platinum Levels).

I'd love to purchase an upgrade, but I want an accurate representation of what I have and what I am getting as the basis for the price offered.

David, see Robert's post above.

The upgrade calculator that gives you your price is independent from, and uses a different set of data than the upgrade chart. The upgrade chart only compares base packages. The price calculator takes into account all your information. This has been true since the day the chart was published.

Anthony H

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/48223#Comment_48223

Same problem here. There are about 20 resources that the discounter said I will get which I already have. Thing is, many of these were purchased on pre-pub from Logos itself. I can see it on my account page, but the upgrade discounter doesn't know about it. I wonder if my discount would have been greater if these were taken into account.

[sigh]

This is why I want Logos to change the blog. (Notice my comment about confidence in the upgrade price calculator above?)

[/sigh]

All your purchases are taken into account by the upgrade discounter. The upgrade display, however does not take that into account. They are two separate entities and use two separate databases.

About confidence -- this is exactly why I only did the minimal cross grade instead of the upgrade. The chart said I would be purchasing items I already purchased ... I know I may be poorly informed or possibly misunderstand how the upgrade policy works but I purchased an addition $500+ worth of resources in '08-'09 (yes in hind sight I would have been better off purchasing a higher base version initially but my budget was what it was) and a portion of those items are not showing up on the chart as already owned so as to make it appear that I'm not credited in the upgrade price and will be purchasing them again.

I'm not critical of Logos except to say that the intial marketing from the chart aspect is somewhat misleading.

[8-)]

Rosie Perera

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/67729#Comment_67729

The upgrade price calculator takes into account all your purchase and is reliable.

The upgrade list shown on the web page only takes into consideration your base package.

Please, Logos change this. (Or prove to me that I'm wrong.)

Richard,

you are exactly right. This is the exact answer I got from Dave Kaplan when I called him to upgrade from silver to Gold.

I quizzed him on my purchases, and he said he was looking at everyone of them in my account file and that THOUGH the "chart" is wrong....but ACTUAL PRICE CALCULATOR shows the data from your specific account and is accurate....

I hope we can put this one to rest soon...

It's Jan 1, 2010 -- Logos still has inaccurate information on the Upgrade page....

I'd love to purchase an upgrade, but I want an accurate representation of what I have and what I am getting as the basis for the price offered.

David, see Robert's post above.

The upgrade calculator that gives you your price is independent from, and uses a different set of data than the upgrade chart. The upgrade chart only compares base packages. The price calculator takes into account all your information. This has been true since the day the chart was published.

Yes, I had the same experience as Robert did when talking with Customer Service on the phone to upgrade to Portfolio, and I do trust them. But this issue will not be "put to rest" and will continue to cause people confusion until they fix the highlightings on the upgrade chart. If they have the information to provide an accurate computation of price, then surely they can also provide accurate highlights in the chart. The Upgrade Chart shouldn't be using a "different set of data" from what the upgrade calculator uses.

Incidentally, after upgrading to Portfolio, now the old upgrade chart is gone and I see a chart with recommended add-ons for me. I already have four of these. Why should they be inviting me to buy things I already have? I might have thought this was probably getting the data from my base package and not taking into account items they know I've already purchased (like the Upgrade Chart "bug" we've all been complaining about). But even that doesn't explain this weirdness. I have Portfolio which includes BDAG/HALOT, JPS Tanakh Commentary Collection, and Horae Homileticae, all of which are being recommended to me as Add Ons. What's the deal?!

Logos: please read this thread!

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/68020#Comment_68020

Hopefully not adding more confusion to the situation... If the discount price calculation is correct, is it based only on the resources I purchased from Logos directly alone, or is it based on all the resources in my licensed account?

Since they already have our full license and account info in their database, I would expect all of my licensed resources (regardless of who I purchased them from) should be taken into consideration.

thanks,

Peter

Rich DeRuiter

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/68256#Comment_68256

Hopefully not adding more confusion to the situation... If the discount price calculation is correct, is it based only on the resources I purchased from Logos directly alone, or is it based on all the resources in my licensed account?

Since they already have our full license and account info in their database, I would expect all of my licensed resources (regardless of who I purchased them from) should be taken into consideration.

thanks,

Peter

Since the discount only applies to resources Logos sells, it would not include third party resources (such as Nelson's stuff).

As to Logos resources sold by third parties, I really don't know.