Syntax question

Kevin,

Again, being ignorant, I did this search and I think that's your intent right....to see either "faith in" Christ or "faith in" Christ Jesus right?

You could do it the cheating way [:D] search BWS on pisteow and look a the contexts and that will tell you this answer also.

If you want to know "what things are "faith in" directed to? Then I think THAT'S  a syntax search maybe....someone can help me....

Kevin,

The reason your search returns multiple hits per verse is because of the way the Cascadia Syntax graphs (and opentext.org graphs) are constructed. If you take Romans 3:21-22 as an example and fill in the search completely (see below) so that every phrase is included, you will only get one hit per occurrence.

But what appears to be happening is that since you are allowing matching to skip levels between the word and phrase, it counts a hit at each phrase the word could be coming from. I can't quite figure out how it's counting, but I'm fairly certain the issue lies in the fact that the Cascadia Syntax charts make abundant use of "phrases" (the same thing will happen with opentext.org in a similarly constructed search where you skip levels between the word group and words, but with less "extra" results). In other words, the more you allow matching to skip levels and the "higher" (father left) in the search you do so, the more extra results you'll return.

Also, I would agree with Robert that this is a good use for a morphological query, since you are searching for a tight phrase. The one he suggested works well. If, however, you were interested in any place πιστεως governs the phrase ιησου χριστου, a syntax search might help, but you'd want to construct it a little differently to allow for the separation of the words. This search gets an extra hit in James 2:1, where πιστις is separated by the phrase του κυριου ημων:

Also, you'll get some double hits since ιησους is optional. It will be counted once with it present and once without it present.

A good rule of thumb (that I've found) is this: If you're interested in places where words appear close together, use a morph search. If you're looking for places where certain words are related in a certain way (though they may be physically separated), use a syntax search.

Kevin,

A final thought. The fact that all those extra hits appears isn't that big of a deal. You still get the verses listed on the left. Rather than scanning through each hit, you can simply go to each verse and look at them yourself. If there happen to be two hits in a single verse, you should see it, since you know where to look.

The hit in James 2:1 is critical to the debate because it represents a nonPauline author's use of a similar construction.

Please bear with my newbieness to the Syntactical search engine but why are all of the operators before "Unordered" necessary?

If a response like "Read the manual" is appropriate, I understand.

But if a simple explanation is possible, I would appreciate it.

David B Phillips said:

Does that make sense?

David,

It is beginning to make more sense for me. This concrete example of an issue I have worked with before has provided good stimulation for me to dig a little deeper into how these resources work.

Thanks for the link to Dave's primer. I hadn't seen that and will study it this afternoon.

One thing I have realized in just the last little bit is that some of the information I assumed would be in the Syntactic resources is not actually there.

I was surprised to see that there seems to be no information in Cascadia, Lexham or Opentext on the syntax of these genitives (i.e. objective, subjective, source, etc). I assumed that these designations would be part of the tagging system in some way.

Obviously I have a lot to learn about these resources.

Russ

Rick Brannan said:

There is presently an issue on my tasklist regarding searching for the "Syntactic Force" information using the syntax search features; it is non-functional at present. I also have some ideas on how to make this information available in the sentence graphs for the Lexham SGNT, but that will take a little more work.

I can't wait till you guess are able to get through the "gotta fix" checklist so you can get to the "get to play" checklist :-)

Rick,

Thanks for chiming in. I always forget about the templates, and it was good to see how you constructed the searches.

George,

Could you post a screenshot of your failed morph search? I ran it and it works fine:

lemma:πίστις BEFORE 2 words lemma:Χριστός@NGSM gives 15 results in 4 verses:

Rom 3:22, Gal 2:16, Gal 3:22, Phil 3:9

Rick Brannan said:

Hope it helps.

Rick,

That is very helpful. Thank you for the direction.

I have primarily used other tools for morphological searches in the past.

I am having some difficulty getting my head around how the syntactical resources work.

I found the tutorials on syntactical searching in L3 here: http://www.logos.com/logos3/videos.

Would you still recommend them as a starting place for newbies or would it be better to wait for newer materials that are specific to L4?

Thanks,

Russ

Russ Quinn said:

Which instances of pistis christou or pistis Ihsou christou should be translated "faith in Christ" is a hot debate among scholars.

Russ, thanks for giving me that background on it...I didn't know that

George,

Thanks. While I agree that the morph search isn't perfected yet, I have had none of the issues you have. In this instance, I would suggest that it might be a problem, as the yellow box suggests, that you're still in the process of indexing (since this is a new install for you). Try it again when indexing is finished and see if it still has problems. If it works for me and not you, there's an issue. As I've said, any problems I've had with flakiness have been my errors in the past. I hope they continue to improve the morph search, because it's not as good as it was in L3 for various reasons, so I'm not disagreeing with you on that [:)]. I'm indifferent to new morph selection however (though it still seems a smidge buggy at times)

Robert Pavich said:

Russ Quinn said:

Which instances of pistis christou or pistis Ihsou christou should be translated "faith in Christ" is a hot debate among scholars.

Russ, thanks for giving me that background on it...I didn't know that

 

Robert,

George Howard has a helpful summary of the issues in his article "Faith of Christ" in the Anchor Bible Dictionary.

Russ