Discounts on Zondervan's Logos editions for Pradis users

Dan, while you're here, could you please take a moment to answer my forum question concerning customer service for international custormers?

 

Thanks

Kevin A. Purcell said:

You have missed my point.  Once you do the work, which you are going to do anyway, it does not cost you anymore to give it away to one who will unlikely ever pay for it. But it does gain you a happy, paying customer who might not otherwise become one.  My point is that once the work is done, the only cost to Logos to give it away is ...

1. Administrative costs of the actual transaction

2. Lost revenue from a sale

I feel like paying the first one is fair.  But since I am not likely going to buy it again #2 is moot.

However, when you factor in all the potential sales of future books that you could gain from a new  former Pradis user who would not have become a logos user if he was not given the books, logos will gain far more by giving it to those customers for the cost of the #1.

Simple logic and math seems to say it is in Logos' best interest to do what is also in the customer's best interests in this case.

 

From your comments, I doubt that you've ever owned a business. Logos is a business and as such it must create revenue to sustain itself, pay taxes, pay its employees and sustain inflation. For you to suggest that Logos should give you a free product is in many ways ludicrous. If you don't want to pay for the titles again, you should just continue using your outdated Pradis software. It seems very assuming and brash to threaten to only be a loyal Logos user if they give you free stuff.

Simple logic does not work in this situation as you suggest. I think Logos could sustain itself by charging smaller "upgrade" fee, but they are going to have to pay all the people to man (or woman) the phones, etc.

On a side note Kevin, this blog is published to for the world to see and your comments on the blog have been less than cordial. I suggest that you scale back a little bit and seek to display Christ in all your interactions whether personal or technological.

 

From One Christian Brother to Another,

JWS

It is why I am frustrated with Zondervan not the NIV/TNIV. I like the TNIV and it is what our church uses as Pew Bibles and Sunday Readings. I honestly don't know why I can purchase the Bibles from my local bookseller but not from Logos! If I can buy a TNIV from Amazon and have it shipped, why can't I do the same with the digital version through Logos?

 

Matthew C Jones said:

It doesn't do much good to ask questions and not listen to the answers.

 

Easy tiger! Settle down! [;)]

 

That doesn't suit my needs. I read what you wrote and the truth is they do license it for sale overseas as part of the packages. Furthermore, it is licensed for sale overseas because I can go to my local Christian bookstore and buy an NIV or TNIV. I have both on Pradis (I bought them from the chuck out bin) but I owuld like to use them in Logos, especially the comparision. The NIV is of less interest to me personally but I would liek to comapre the NIV and TNIV at some point to see where they made translation changes.

I expect to pay for the, heck I am happy to pay for them, but they can't be sold to me. Just because I have them on Pradis I dont expect them, for free and I object to your suggestion that I do!

MarkStevens said:

Easy tiger! Settle down!

 

My growling isn't  towards you Mark. Sorry it seemed that way.

I am also a bit dated on my comments about overseas licensing of the NIV. They DO have the "Anglicised" version (The same one I bought in Logos format.) In the 1990s they were very persnickety about it.  I am glad somebody actually publishes good stuff. It costs a fortune to get it to market. It is a gamble. I am just testy this week over ungrateful Logos users running to eBay (& here on the forums)  selling "duplicate" titles they got credit for in upgrades and laughing at how they are so smart at making money. 

I'm gonna go have a quiet time now away from the computer. Hope you understand my frustration I don't watch bullies kick puppies either. [&]

I'm just glad that the majority of my Bible software investments over the years have been in Logos software.

I have a small investment in some Pradis titles, which I lost after a crash, only to find out that I can't even download them anymore.

I'm more than willing to eat the loss as a lesson learned, and continue with a company, Logos, that has exemplified the best over the years.

Richard Crampton said:

I just received an email from Zondervan advertising their new OT Backgrounds Commentary set.

 

I got the same email Richard. Now if Zondervan would offer that same 60% crossgrade discount to those of us who bought Pradis, they might fall back in favor . Just don't hold your breath waiting on parity.  (That's a Mac vs PC joke [8-|] . That's also a snyd remark akin to "some are more equal than others".)

Zondervan, if you are listening. Please do your most loyal customers right.

I have now purchased two versions of the Expositors Bible Commentary in Pradis. I really want this in Logos and will be happy to pay a small fee just to cover the cost of the transaction and bandwidth to make the leap. But I can guarantee that if Zondervan does not do right by us, I will be sure to not make the same mistake again with any Zondervan resources in the future.

Kevin A. Purcell said:

But there is no cost whatsoever to Logos or Zondervan to give this away to a customer who never will buy it.  The reason is they are not losing a sale. And they are not losing money for a hard product. It's just bits/bytes.  It costs them the same price to produce it once as it does to produce it a million times. The cost is in the creating the files. Once the bits/bytes are created they will never again cost Logos and Zondervan anything to make. There will be a tiny cost of storing them on a hard drive. But in today's technology that is a fraction of a penny.

This would be accurate if Logos never updated the files (metadata, corrections, etc), or converted them to a new format (Logos 3 to Logos 4, for example).  But they do.  Inherent within the Logos purchase is the ability to pay once for those files/resources/books and keep using them through revisions of the software and computer upgrades and so on.  If Logos can't make enough from each purchase (or the collective purchases) to pay for production and updates and improvements, as well as related support costs, they will go out of business, which I assume none of us wants.

I would be very excited if there was a $50 or even 50% discount on the upgrade.  But asking to get a $130 package for $30 doesn't seem reasonable to me.  Again, Logos and particularly Zondervan will have to work that out.

I paid $70 for EBC in Pradis (got it on an overstock/clearance sale).  I want it in Logos.  But Zondervan never promised me it would work indefinitely.  Only that it would work on Windows ____ (whatever was listed on the box).  They never promised me free updates.  Logos does.  I'm excited they do.  But we can't expect Zondervan to operate the same way as Logos.  They are licensing the technology, not promising to duplicate the model, as far as I know.  So from this point, Zondervan products will in one sense be Logos resources, and we can hopefully anticipate the same availability, updates to books, and so on.  But we shouldn't demand that it be retroactive.  I've had Pradis for two years.  That's worth something to have access to those books for that time period.

Kevin A. Purcell said:

This is the new digital economy and owning a none digital economy
business would not at all help anyone understand it better.  I do have
a digital economy "business".  I produce content for readers and I give
it all away. The reason is that I know there is a benefit to me in
doing so. The benefit is not in dollars and cents at this time, but
might be.  The magazine I write for gets it too. They did away with the
subscription model and now give it away for ad revenue.

What works for you as a single individual or a smaller company may not correlate to a much larger operation, as far as giving away content or ad revenues are concerned.  Do you really want Logos to go to an ad-support program?  Banner ads in the app?  Or something else?

Matthew C Jones said:

Daniel,

You are correct in pointing out Pradis still does what it always did, no matter how inferior Pradis is to Logos. No. Logos doesn't have to go with the ad-supported model. (That is not what Kevin said anyway.)

I wasn't saying he said that directly.  But if Logos is getting any of the revenue from the Zondervan titles, and then we say, "Give it to us for free," then Logos will have to make up the revenue in other ways - raising prices on other titles, finding ad support, or whatever.

Matthew C Jones said:

 

"But there is no cost whatsoever to Logos or Zondervan to give this away to a customer who never will buy it." - Kevin
Key phrase, "never buy it."

I think there is a cost - support costs, upgrade cost, etc. I don't know which company ends up paying for the production, but Logos will at some point likely eat part of the cost for support in the long run.  Maybe it's minimal, maybe it isn't.  It's still not free, as best I can tell.

Matthew C Jones said:

If you can't live without your Zondervan titles, no matter how badly
they treat you, you will continue to be charged over & over for the
same product. Why not just call it "renting" since that is what Z is
doing to you?

I don't think this is fair either (your assessment). If Logos treats these products as they have all their other products, then this is the last time anyone should have to buy these titles. 

Zondervan has followed the Microsoft approach - each new revision of the product/engine has associated upgrade costs (ie Windows XP > Vista > 7), while Logos has chosen a different model - pay for books/resources, not the engine.  Am I then 'renting' Windows if I have to buy each new version?  Maybe.  Or maybe I'm just paying for a given product without the promise it will work forever, have all the newest features, and so on.  They are both legitimate models.  We may prefer one to the other.  And we can put our money to support one more than the other.  

It's like the upgrade from Logos 3 to Logos 4.  No one forced us to upgrade to Logos 4.  We wanted the features.  Some of them are different.  Some are not yet complete.  We chose to upgrade.  Should we get all the new content for free?  E.g. Biblical People, Places, Things?  I don't think so.

No one is forcing those of us who are Pradis users to upgrade.  We can construe it that way.  We may be disappointed or prefer all our resources to be in a single program, but the program still works, for the foreseeable future.  And even if Pradis doesn't work in Windows 8 or 10 or 20, it never promised to, as far as I know.

I want a discount, but I'm not going to pretend that it's an issue of loyalty.  "I'll stay with __ company as long as they always do everything the way I want."  It's an issue of stewardship (I can't afford to buy ___ again) or potentially a false sense of entitlement (You owe me ___, even if you never promised it). 

I hope we can get a discount, and I'm grateful they're giving us an opportunity to express our opinions.  We'll see what gets worked out.

It seems to me that people with little to lose in this transition are very vocal about what they think is fair!  You'd feel differently if you had more invested.

Well, I own the Scholars Library, NIV Application Commentary (NT and The Prophets), the NT Backgrounds Commentary, the OT Theology and Exegesis, The Expositors and various books.  That includes almost everything offered in prepub minus the OT Backgrounds Commentary which is priced at $249.  That means that at prepub prices it would cost me $1750 to convert what I already own to Logos.  At 50% off it would cost me $875.  This is not acceptable to me!  In fact it's ludicrous and definitely not wise stewardship.  I will run Pradis on a virtual machine until the day I die before I give Zondervan any money to convert resources I already paid several hundred dollars for.   

Why did I invest so much in Pradis?   Because I was pretty certain that God was calling me to the mission field.  So I sold my paper library and bought electronic.  I originally had 5 different programs because I could only get certain resources from certain companies.  Now most of my resources are in Logos, Wordesearch and Pradis.  Using three programs doesn't bother me.  I have been doing it for 4 years.  It would be nice to get down 2 but I won't pay more to do it;)

Dan, I presume this would be announced to those who already have pre-ordered the Zondervan package from Logos?  I have most of the large packages from Pradis, and will be delighted to delete them when the Logos version is released.

 

Daniel Lee said:

No one is forcing those of us who are Pradis users to upgrade.  We can construe it that way.  We may be disappointed or prefer all our resources to be in a single program, but the program still works, for the foreseeable future.  And even if Pradis doesn't work in Windows 8 or 10 or 20, it never promised to, as far as I know.

I want a discount, but I'm not going to pretend that it's an issue of loyalty.  "I'll stay with __ company as long as they always do everything the way I want."  It's an issue of stewardship (I can't afford to buy ___ again) or potentially a false sense of entitlement (You owe me ___, even if you never promised it). 

I hope we can get a discount, and I'm grateful they're giving us an opportunity to express our opinions.  We'll see what gets worked out.

Daniel,

I just hope that you do not run a business with this view of the way customers should expect from after purchasing your products.

Look around, if you see a successful company, it is a company that understands that a great product must be accompanied by an even greater customer service.

What you do not seem to understand is that in a free market society, you do not need an explicit promise to satisfy the customer by giving them the kind of product they expect, nor do you need to expressly state that you will do everything you can to preserve the value of their investment. No, these things do not have to be written on paper to be in effect. The free market takes care of it and ensures that those companies that thrive or even merely survive are the one that exceed even the unspoken expectations of their customers. It is not a coincidence that Pradis as a platform did not survive.

I might not be able to mount a legal case against Zondervan for poor customer service, but more than a court ruling, a loss of goodwill with their customer base will be detrimental to their bottom line especially since this is a business that relies on repeat customers and on those customers bringing other customers.

Your comparison of Zondervan with Microsoft is inappropriate at many levels.  Microsoft did not discontinue the support of Vista when they came out with Windows 7.  Microsoft has provided a very affordable upgrade path for users of previous versions of it OS (almost 90% off the list price in some cases). Microsoft has taken great care to ensure compatibility of programs between platforms (when I upgraded to Windows 7, I did not have to pay again for all the licenses of software I owned under Windows XP or Vista and there is even an XP mode in Windows 7 to help me run legacy programs).  

I do not remember signing a piece of paper telling me that I should expect that from Microsoft when they will come out with the new OS; but it is really the least they could do after laying an egg with Vista… at least if they expected me to remain a customer.

Call it false sense of entitlement if you want, I call it necessary conditions for a harmonious and enduring relationship between a customer and a corporation.

Now, all my machines at home (expect my netbook) run Windows 7. I am happy with the upgrade, they are happy with my money and the favorable recommendations I make on behalf of the new OS. It is a win-win situation and the way the free market economy works.

So yeah, Zondervan could well act as if they do not owe  us anything, but such a move would be very costly and not a good business decision.

I think they will do the math

Alain

I agree. I have most of the large packages from Pradis (EXBC; NICOTTE; NIDNT; NIVAC NT; and NIVAC OT Prophets) and am looking forward to having them in the Logos format. I just hope it will come at a significant discount. I was thinking about keeping the Pradis platform for these books but the functionality of Logos will move me to purchase them again. I'm still trying to figure out what to do with my print versions. I have always enjoyed being surrounded by my books and it has only been in the last 10 yrs that I moved to digital. You can't beat logos for the time it saves--and it's fun too.

MikeWaterhouse said:

Paper publishing is going through significant changes and publishers need to consider a long term strategy. Colleges are experimenting with using e-readers instead of paper books in the same way that they started experimenting with laptops several years ago (now, you can't attend college without a laptop, how long until electronic books overtake paper books?).  Anyone publishing books should consider early adopters in their long term strategy(I bought the Pradis resources on the recomendation of someone I respect).  Microsoft figured this out in the 80s and that is why Windows in 90% of market share and OS2 is ?. 

Mike,

You say, "Paper publishing is going through significant changes and publishers need to consider a long term strategy."
I noticed the CBD price on Zondervan's Pictorial Bible Encyclopedia is $40 (retail $170.) Traditional publishing isn't making much money that way. Maybe they should open their eyes. The future is here.

You also say, "As far as 'would never buy them anyway' how do you determine this?"
You can't be absolutely certain. It is like buying gasoline at $6/gallon at Needles, California as you enter Death Valley. You might have to do it, but you won't be a happy customer. (It turns customer loyalty inside out - Not a vote for, but a vote against.) I doubt Zondervan will buy out Logos anymore than I will drive through Needles again.

Before everybody gives Zondervan a pass for bad behavior paid for with customer goodwill earned by Logos, consider there is NO LOYALTY here towards Logos on Zondervan's part. The announcement for abandoning Pradis said Zondervan will be publishing their titles in multiple formats. You can bet Zondervan does not gouge the "other guys" as deeply as the Logos customers. (Unless they consider our posts. Their track record says they won't.) To apply this to our "gasoline in Needles" analogy, It is like charging the Cadillac owners $6/gallon and the Chevy owners $3/gallon.

MikeWaterhouse said:

I think Logos customers in general will pay for quality resources but we expect value for our money. 

As far as the future of publishing, at our local university and city library, I see more people using laptops than reading books (the library offers free WIFI to residents) and several local newspapers have gone out of business. 

I think everyone agrees on two facts:
1) Zondervan has a lot of quality material. I am on my third hardcopy set of Pictorial Bible Encyclopedia. I even have it in Scholar's digital format, as well as EBC, NIDNTT, NIDOTTE, Fee, Mounce, and others. And
2) Logos is the most desirable Bible software.

I do not mind paying more to gain the enhanced usability of having a title in Logos format. I purchased the A. W. Tozer library in the "other guys" format for $32. I purchased the same library in Logos format for considerably more. It is worth it to me. But $2K for content I already have access to, albeit inferior!? We are not talking about $32 here, it is TWO THOUSAND! I cannot understand why Zondervan doesn't see a goodwill-saving gesture that profits them $395 is more preferable to alienating 80% of their previously faithful customer base who will walk away from any purchase. ($400 for a $4 disc. [:^)])

 1,000  users x $2000 = $2,000,000 (& a lot of untrusting buyers)
10,000  users x  $400 = $4,000,000 (& lots & lots of happy customers)

Once the customer base has been established in Logos any future Zondervan offerings will be considered by as many (or few) customers Zondervan has secured with their foray into Logos. "Let not a software company think more highly of itself than it ought.."

(btw: Our local paper offered $10 annual subscription, 365 days, I still turned them down.)

Will Zondervan add the NIV Study Bible to the list of titles?  I didn't see it in the Logos Pre-pub list.

 

Scott, Yip said:

Hi,

I saw the NIVAC NT is on the Prepub, http://www.logos.com/products/prepub/details/5459

I already own it in Pradis, has Logos issued any official guideline on the licenses transferring?

Scott

Not yet.

Any further updates on status?

CaseyScott said:

sending in the physical disks is the only way to prove that a customer paid for the product

Hi Casey,

Not necessarily true. I purchased some of my titles as downloads.

Blessings,

Bill

If 35 percent is correct Zondervan has just lost a customer.  

Jacob Hantla said:

I hate to admit it, but they know that their resources are so valuable that the majority will buy them no matter the discount. I will certainly upgrade my best-of's from Pradis regardless of the discount. I'm hoping for more (and think more is fair) but 35% is better than nothing (which is what they could do)

I couldn't disagree more. I won't even consider buying these Zondervan books at 35% off. That's only 3% less than they can be purchased on Amazon. e.g. How to Read the Bible for All Its Worth is 16.99 list and in Logos format and discounted 32% at Amazon for $11.55. Whatever you want to say about the advantages of e-books they also have disadvantages and I will be keeping my paper copies of these books. Publishers have recognised that bookstores are going to discount their books 10% 20% 30% and have been raising prices accordingly so that we will be happy. Then Zondervan decides to put their e-books on prepub in Logos format for FULL RETAIL! Would they then insult their previous customers by offering them a discount that is basically equivalent to what anyone can buy them for on Amazon with all the benefits of ownership instead of licensing? I wouldn't be surprised if they did, but they won't be getting any of my money. There are some valuable books in this collection but to me the $2000 collection is not worth a penny more than $800 and that's were I stand. I can do no other.

Daniel DeVilder said:

no disrespect, but I have questions about the source and veracity of that "35% off

I'm the one who posted it here because it was posted to my web site in a comment. So I also have questions about it. Should have made it clearer that it was a questionable source. May end up accurate, but I don't know. Just passing it along as it is the only info I have heard that sounds like an actual bit of news. Could be just a wild stab in the dark and a total lie.

Joe Miller said:

Kevin A. Purcell said:

I'm the one who posted it here because it was posted to my web site in a comment.

This is a great example of why Gossip is not good and why we should resist participating in spreading Gossip.

Yep. Smacked in the face with that one. Sorry!!!

Some how when it is about software and a company it doesn't seem as pernicious until the above posts happened.