Going to buy a new notebook and considering discrete graphics

Hello fellow Logos Users,

I'm going to replace my almost 5 year old notebook with a new one.
Logos is one of the most important software on my machine and so it has much influence on the configuration Smile

My only question aims at the graphics card. Does it help Logos significantly to invest in a discrete graphics card (most probably the NVidia NVS 5400M with 2 GB RAM) or will the integrated graphics of the modern Intel i5 / i7 processors (Intel HD 4000) be perfectly fine.

I work much of the time with two monitors with high resolutions (around HD).

If the discrete graphics isn't hat necessary I would rather buy a notebook with integrated graphics because of heat and noise issues.

Thank you very much for you advice!

With best regards,
Anton

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Geo Philips

Get a Haswell laptop with integrated graphics (HD4400 or HD5000 like the Macbook Air) and you will be fine. As a bonus, you can get some nice ultrabooks with those specifications (again, the Air which I use, or perhaps the Sony Vaio Pro)

David Thomas

I had read that discrete graphics was almost a "must have" so when I shopped for a laptop in 2012 I insisted on discrete graphics. By the time I was hardware shopping in 2013 the graphics abilities had increased so that I find the HD4000 on my Surface Pro (Ivy Bridge i5) to be more than adequate for running 2 monitors with Logos5. The new Haswell take it even a step further.

Note:I have always been a PC guy, so others will have to speak up if you want to go with the Apple ecosystem.

Kevin A. Purcell

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/516777#Comment_516777

On the Apple side get a 13 MacBook Air. Best available. Only reasons not to ...

need more than 13" due to other software or really bad eyesight
need more than 512GB of storage

On the Windows side defitinely insist on a Haswell for best graphics performance. And if its Win8 make sure it has a touch screen. You'll hate none touch screen Win8 laptops.

BTW I've reviewed a lot of Toshiba, Acer and other low end laptops. They're not worth it. Don't get a Toshiba low end system unless you have to have a PC and can't find anything else that fits your price range. Then be prepared to hate the keyboard.

I really like Lenovo, Sony and high end business class HP or Dell machines. Low end Dell and HP are not good.

Unix

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/516924#Comment_516924

I've ordered a www.trulyergonomic.com external one:

Then be prepared to hate the keyboard.

One of my two laptops is a low end HP. It's good. It's weak link is the graphics card - but I want flawless scrolling, much of the time it's OK though:

Low end Dell and HP are not good.

John

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/516924#Comment_516924

On the Windows side defitinely insist on a Haswell for best graphics performance.

If money is no object, insist on Haswell with HD 5200. Good luck finding them as none are available yet. Once they are, and once you get over your sticker shock, then go for the best deal for the money. Be willing to consider what you are really buying.

3rd generation core I-7's with HD 4000 graphics will give you performance very close to Haswell HD 4400 for a lot less money. I have not seen anyone on the forums complaining about slow graphics that had HD 4000. The complaints seem to be those with previous generation I-3s and to some degree I-5's. It costs a lot to buy the cutting edge. What you want is to find the sweet spot. Paying double the price for a performance increase that isn't even noticeable is not the best advice.

The Haswell HD 4400 graphics only scores about 12% faster than HD 4000 in 3DMark06 scores. The real performance boost with the Haswell chips is in the Iris and Iris Pro graphics, HD 5100 and higher. According to Intel, Iris Pro (HD 5200) will be up to 150 percent faster than HD 4000, and about 50-60% faster than HD 4600.

This article shows testing results across the board on HD 5000 and found an average of only 15% increase over HD 4000.

15% is probably not even going to be noticeable for a 2D program like Logos.

So my advice is ... when these new HD 5200 machines hit the shelves ... watch for the older (Core I-7 HD 4000) models to go on sale. Then grab one at a great price. If you need to buy right now, the real advantages of Haswell graphics are not for sale just yet. HD 4400 and HD 5000 are available. But remember, the difference in performance with these isn't worth paying a lot more for.

Gabe Martini (Faithlife)

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/516987#Comment_516987

Logos runs extremely fast on my 2012 MacBook Air. In fact, it runs faster than the supposedly superior (according to specs) desktop I use in the office.

Library size difference might have something to do with that, however.

Geo Philips

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/516987#Comment_516987

Do not discount the vast battery improvement on Haswell devices if you like to carry your laptop about without charging it.

On the Windows side defitinely insist on a Haswell for best graphics performance.

If money is no object, insist on Haswell with HD 5200. Good luck finding them as none are available yet. Once they are, and once you get over your sticker shock, then go for the best deal for the money. Be willing to consider what you are really buying.

3rd generation core I-7's with HD 4000 graphics will give you performance very close to Haswell HD 4400 for a lot less money. I have not seen anyone on the forums complaining about slow graphics that had HD 4000. The complaints seem to be those with previous generation I-3s and to some degree I-5's. It costs a lot to buy the cutting edge. What you want is to find the sweet spot. Paying double the price for a performance increase that isn't even noticeable is not the best advice.

The Haswell HD 4400 graphics only scores about 12% faster than HD 4000 in 3DMark06 scores. The real performance boost with the Haswell chips is in the Iris and Iris Pro graphics, HD 5100 and higher. According to Intel, Iris Pro (HD 5200) will be up to 150 percent faster than HD 4000, and about 50-60% faster than HD 4600.

This article shows testing results across the board on HD 5000 and found an average of only 15% increase over HD 4000.

15% is probably not even going to be noticeable for a 2D program like Logos.

So my advice is ... when these new HD 5200 machines hit the shelves ... watch for the older (Core I-7 HD 4000) models to go on sale. Then grab one at a great price. If you need to buy right now, the real advantages of Haswell graphics are not for sale just yet. HD 4400 and HD 5000 are available. But remember, the difference in performance with these isn't worth paying a lot more for.

Anton Peters

Hello friends,

Thank you very much for your helpful comments! [Y]

I'm working with Lenovo ThinkPads for more than 7 years now and can't imagine working with something else [;)]
So it will become a ThinkPad again.

BTW: I'm totally a windows guy [:D]

I had read that discrete graphics was almost a "must have" so when I shopped for a laptop in 2012 I insisted on discrete graphics.

That's what I have in mind and therefore my question. [*-)]

I'm working really a lot with my computer and I'm the kind of user, who only want's to have one machine for everything (and I'm sticking with my machine for about 4 years +). I'm working with an docking-station and a second monitor, so I can use the notebook monitor together with an external with external mouse and keyboard at home. And I am also working a lot on the go. So there is much my machine has to accommodate to...

The ThinkPad T400 with switchable graphics was perfect for me until now, the hardware has become little bit old now and the demands are growing not only from my not so small Logos library.

The only available ThinkPad for me with an HD4400 is the T440s but I fear it has a much to weak CPU for my demands. [:(]

I have saved some money and my computer is an very important investment for me (working tool).
So my options are:

ThinkPad T430 / X230 with Intel HD4000
ThinkPad T430 with NVidia NVS 5400M (Optimus Technology)
waiting for Haswell and getting used to the new ThinkPad Design, but waiting for how long and for what price [^o)]

Again, thank you very much for your thoughts and opinion!

With best regards,
Anton

Allen Browne

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/517022#Comment_517022

So my options are:
ThinkPad T430 / X230 with Intel HD4000

ThinkPad T430 with NVidia NVS 5400M (Optimus Technology)

waiting for Haswell and getting used to the new ThinkPad Design, but waiting for how long and for what price

How important is battery life for you?

If you regularly work away from power, I would suggest you wait for Haswell. I did, and am thrilled with it.

Recently I attended a 2-day theology seminar and sat near a power point as that's what I always had to do. Each day, I had the screen on for 4.5 hours (excluding lunch, discussions, etc), typing into Word and searching Logos. Both days I had about 35% battery left after 4.5 hours.

Why is that surprising? Because we are talking about a quad-core i7 CPU, 16GB RAM, two drives (SSD + HDD), and a Full HD (1920x1080) 17.3" screen!!!

Ok, I did turn off unnecessary stuff (WiFi and keyboard lights), but that equates to 6-7 hours on battery. Haswell (4th gen) is worth the wait.

JoshInRI

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/517044#Comment_517044

Haswell on a cool-temp sharp MS Surface Pro might make me a convert....discrete graphics would only matter to me if it improved readability.

I would also hope that LOGOS would make their application and software more touch friendly too of course.

Anton Peters

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/517049#Comment_517049

Hello friends,

What I have read about Haswell so far sounds really great. A significantly reduced TDP means less energy consumption AND heat and noise emission and that is very important for a quiet working environment (with my Bible!). So I will wait for the next generation to arrive (and hopefully get along with the changes in the ThinkPad brand).

As I understood up to now, at least Intel Haswell CPUs would make a dedicate graphics card obsolete, right?
Most important in view of Logos of course and the future development of it. [:)]
(I'm not interested in games what so ever.)

Best regards,
Anton

Geo Philips

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/517065#Comment_517065

It would make the requirement for a dedicated card just to have UI smoothness in Windows .NET apps obselete I would say. So an ultrabook with an i5 and an SSD with a Haswell chip would run Logos great.

Hello friends,

What I have read about Haswell so far sounds really great. A significantly reduced TDP means less energy consumption AND heat and noise emission and that is very important for a quiet working environment (with my Bible!). So I will wait for the next generation to arrive (and hopefully get along with the changes in the ThinkPad brand).

As I understood up to now, at least Intel Haswell CPUs would make a dedicate graphics card obsolete, right?
Most important in view of Logos of course and the future development of it.
(I'm not interested in games what so ever.)

Best regards,
Anton

Scott S

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/517022#Comment_517022

ThinkPad T430 with NVidia NVS 5400M (Optimus Technology)

Optimus is on-demand technology. It uses the integrated graphics for low intensity apps like email to save power. When the system detects processes that benefit from extra video processing power, the NVidia Video card automatically turns on. http://www.nvidia.com/object/optimus_technology.html

Settings allow the NVidia to be always on or off for specified applications. (Those settings are buried pretty deep in their app, and you may need to read the help file to make these changes.)

Optimus offers power savings and extra performance, but at least as of last year, it is adds significant cost to the PC.

Even though trusted forum members report acceptable performance with the recent Intel integrated graphics, Logos has not dropped the discrete video card from their hardware recommendations. So presumable there is still significant speed advantage to having discrete video. https://www.logos.com/support/logos5/hardware

Anton Peters

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/517084#Comment_517084

Logos has not dropped the discrete video card from their hardware recommendations. So presumable there is still significant speed advantage to having discrete video. https://www.logos.com/support/logos5/hardware

That is a good point. I haven't seen that page on the hardware recommendations. [:$]

I was just wondering if that is still true for the modern Intel GPUs because of their great potential (they are much stronger, than my discrete ATI Mobility Radeon HD 3470!!)... [*-)]

At the moment I'm tending again towards a switchable solution (hopefully NVidia with Optimus) and a Haswell based System.

Best regards,
Anton

John

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/517065#Comment_517065

As I understood up to now, at least Intel Haswell CPUs would make a dedicate graphics card obsolete, right?

Well sort of, but not really. As long as there is a performance gain by using dedicated graphics there will still be more options. But from a cost vs performance standpoint, you could say that low end dedicated graphics are already obsolete and have been for some time now.

If you look at Haswell graphics, the top end (Iris HD 5100 and Iris Pro HD 5200) is definitely out there to compete directly with the midrange to top hardware. Especially on mobile devices where power savings is important.

The lower end (HD 4xxx), while probably sufficient for Logos, is not going to satisfy hardcore gamers or others who push the graphics to the limit. There are actually Haswell ultrabooks out already that have dedicated graphics built-in. Sony has Haswell based laptops out that use a dedicated ATI Graphics.

This HP ENVY at Costco with a Haswell i7-4700MQ processor (which includes HD 4600 graphics built in) also has a dedicated NVIDIA GeForce GT 740M graphics card. This also looks like a pretty good deal for the money at $200 off and MS-Office Student included.

Older models (pre-haswell) of this machine used the on processor graphics when running on battery, and the dedicated graphics card when plugged in. See Article here. It is possible that this one works the same way. Not sure if other manufacturers are doing the same thing. But it makes sense to reduce graphics performance when running on battery for longer battery life.

Other scenarios include merging the processor performance of the Intel built-in GPU with a dedicated graphics card. Some intel chipsets have already had this capability for a while.

If you don't care about 3D games, I think you don't even need to wait for the higher end Haswell graphics to hit the market. You don't even need Haswell. IMO anything HD 4000 or above would probably be good enough [H]

John

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/517084#Comment_517084

Even though trusted forum members report acceptable performance with the recent Intel integrated graphics, Logos has not dropped the discrete video card from their hardware recommendations. So presumable there is still significant speed advantage to having discrete video. https://www.logos.com/support/logos5/hardware

That is good information on Optimus Scott. I learned something new today. Seems that power saving technology is advancing faster than I can keep up with it.

On the system requirments, I think the requirement that really matters there is DirectX 11. (Direct X 10 on the minimum page).

I'm pretty confident that if the benchmarks show the on-chip graphics performing the same or better than midrange discreet graphics, it is a pretty safe bet that the Logos requirements are outdated.

Another clue is the implication that shared video memory is a bad thing ... which it used to be when many systems were shipped with barely adequate RAM. But today shared memory performs better because it shares the same on-chip high speed cache. Dedicated memory has to travel over an I/O Bus and must run through PCIe interface. This is slower. That is why top gaming systems with multiple dedicated cards are using SLI. Just make sure you meet the RAM requirements. better too much than not enough [:D]

And last but not least, The requirements page references AGP, PCI, PCIe ... I will qualify my advice here by saying that if the system you are planning on running Logos 5 on is using AGP or PCI, then yes, you will need a dedicated video card. But you probably should upgrade your entire system instead [8-|]

Scott S

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/517456#Comment_517456

Interesting posts, guys.

it is a pretty safe bet that the Logos requirements are outdated.

The Direct X 10 recommendation is old. However, the Video section was added to the Logos requirements page months after the Intel HD Graphics 4000 was commonly available, so Logos was aware of the capability of the 4000 when formulating their hardware recommendations.

John

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/517509#Comment_517509

... the Video section was added to the Logos requirements page months after the Intel HD Graphics 4000 was commonly available, so Logos was aware of the capability of the 4000 when formulating their hardware recommendations.

Your post made me think that maybe Logos should have a recommended hardware page to make the choice easier for non-technical people. But I guess the forum sort of serves that purpose. I do see your point. It seems silly to me that Bible software can have such tough system requirements. But I understand why that is ... it is built upon a Microsoft platform that requires a lot of power (.NET and WPF).

The system requirements page also references AGP and PCI expansion slots for video cards, which have both been obsolete ever since PCIe was introduced (about 10 years ago). So I think it is really self evident that at least part of the page is outdated.

The latter part of the page seems to be attempting to simplify and explain, but is making outdated points in doing so. It is arguing against the integrated graphics from times past, which used the CPU for calculations and system RAM for video memory. The on-chip video such as the HD 4000 is a completely different thing. It has its own GPU for one thing, and though it shares system RAM, because it is on-die it also shares the processors L1 cache.

Any system still using AGP would be running on a Pentium 4 processor at best, and would not meet the processor requirement.

At the bottom of the page we find this:

If this seems confusing, a good rule of thumb is "Can I play games on it?" A video card designed to support games is likely to be more powerful. This is an easy quality to ask about when purchasing.

HD 4000 is faster than many low end dedicated graphics cards, and you can definitely play games on it [H]

BKMitchell

...My only question aims at the graphics card. Does it help Logos significantly to invest in a discrete graphics card (most probably the NVidia NVS 5400M with 2 GB RAM) or will the integrated graphics of the modern Intel i5 / i7 processors (Intel HD 4000) be perfectly fine...

On my current notebook I have both:

Intel® Core™ i7-2760QM
AMD Radeon™ HD 7690M XT

Significantly, is hard to define, but for me I like having both a decent processor and a graphic card. When, I attempted to upgrade to windows 8 I wasn't able to find the right drivers for the AMD Radeon, and when running Logos5 I noticed, for me what was, a significant lag/response time. So, much so that I when back to Windows7.

Also, the speed of your Hard Drive / SSD matters a great deal, too. Don't go for any harddrive under 7,200rpm! No, matter how fast your processor and Graphic cards are, if your HardDrive/SSD drive is slow or faulty Logos isn't going to run smoothly.

In addition to video games I believe one could theoretically use Logos4/Logos5 to test computer performance. [:)]

John

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/517529#Comment_517529

On my current notebook I have both:

Intel® Core™ i7-2760QM

AMD Radeon™ HD 7690M XT

Very good first hand experience. So lets put some numbers on this.

AMD Radeon™ HD 7690M XT gives acceptable performance

Intel® Core™ i7-2760QM is a Sandy Bridge chip with HD 3000 graphics and is noticeably sluggish.

AMD Radeon™ HD 7690M XT scores 1008 on the PassMark G3D Mark benchmark.

HD 3000 graphics scores 306 on the PassMark G3D Mark benchmark.

So the dedicated graphics on BK's machine is roughly 3 times faster than the HD 3000.

For Comparison:

HD 4000 scores 465 on the PassMark G3D Mark benchmark.

This makes the HD 4000 more than 50% faster than HD 3000, but still less than half as fast as BK's dedicated Radeon.

To compare Haswell graphics at the low end, HD 4600 scores 606, roughly twice as fast as BK's HD 3000, but not a huge leap above 3rd gen HD 4000.

No passmark scores for HD 5100 or 5200 yet ...

BKMitchell

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/517536#Comment_517536

...Very good first hand experience...

Thanks John.

Okay, here is some more real world data via that Windows Task Manager

When, I open Logos5 the CPU usage spikes up and down between 0% and 13% and dropping 0% once Logos5's homepage is opened. Normal Ram usage before Logos5 is opened is 1.59GB and After Logos is opened is 1.80GB (for whatever reason ram usage never seems to change while running Logos5). If, I click open any of the tab on the homepage the CPU spikes up to 4%. However, without clicking I can hover my cursor back and forth over the tabs they open instantly, without any noticeable lag time. Searching for faith/hope/love in top bibles returns in 0.28 sec and use 6% of CPU. Running, Syntax search the Anderson-Forbes Phrase Marker Analysis for a clause with two segments that agree in regards to the semantic: human returns 76 results in 1.98 sec and use 13% of the CPU . I wish I knew how to check the GPU but, anyway it appears that Logos5 isn't using the CPU all that much. In, this case I would say it is either the GPU is the work horse or Logos5 has greatly improved over Logos4. But, I don't know. Oh, I am not using a SSD, yet. I am still using a HDD at 7,200rpm.

There is a someone on the forums named Roise Perera who has a really powerful computer which she runs just about everything Logos has on. If she stops by this thread I am sure she will be able to give us a few tips or two about computer specs.

John

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/517565#Comment_517565

... it appears that Logos5 isn't using the CPU all that much. In, this case I would say it is either the GPU is the work horse or Logos5 has greatly improved over Logos4. But, I don't know. Oh, I am not using a SSD, yet. I am still using a HDD at 7,200rpm.

It probably isn't that Logos doesn't use the processor, but that todays processors are so amazingly fast. In addition to that, much of the processing done by Logos is delegated to the .NET subsystem. Logos doesn't really do any calculation intensive 3D graphics, rendering or shading either, which is what most graphics tests focus on. It is simply using the graphics subsystem to put information on the screen.

But if the graphics appear to be sluggish, the user notices right away. Especially if they have been spoiled with extremely fast graphics previously [:D]

In other threads, it was pretty much established that disk speed was the single biggest factor for Logos 5. A Sata 3 interface running at 600 MB/s and an SSD seems to be the most effective upgrade. Older systems still benefit from an upgrade to SSD but Sata 2 interface slows things a little bit.

Using Windows Task Manager to figure out how much memory Logos is using would be difficult. Because the program is built on .NET and WPF, which are huge libraries that are pre-loaded by Windows, the Logos exe and other files might report small numbers. Windows also prefetches and caches frequently run programs, so before you run Logos, it is likely already loaded into memory. Logos also accesses large numbers of files, which are cached in memory until the system runs low on RAM.

So it is very important to have plenty of memory for a big program like Logos, even if it doesn't appear to use it all. It has been debated a lot, but I think most agree it will run with less, but 8GB is optimal, and more is better. Official recommendation is 6GB.

Fortunately many new systems already come with 8GB or more.

BKMitchell

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/517647#Comment_517647

But if the graphics appear to be sluggish, the user notices right away. Especially if they have been spoiled with extremely fast graphics previously

True, very true! Spoiled is probably the only word you could use to describe this situation. As, an Elementary school student in the 80's I remember using computers programs that booted up on cassette tapes, big floppy disks, and if we were lucky cartridges. It, is hard to believe how much computers and software have advanced since then.

JoshInRI

I hope that the next iteration of Logos takes into account full touch functionality in Windows 8.1.

Keep Smiling 4 Jesus :)

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/517536#Comment_517536

AMD Radeon™ HD 7690M XT scores 1008 on the PassMark G3D Mark benchmark.

HD 3000 graphics scores 306 on the PassMark G3D Mark benchmark.

NVIDIA GeForce GT 650M scores 1297 on the PassMark G3D Mark benchmark (ranked 106)

Opening a layout with many visual filters enabled (10 in all resources plus one more in LDGNT) is noticeably faster when using NVIDIA GeForce GT 650M: e.g. highlighting done in 19 seconds compared to 23 seconds

Wiki has => http://wiki.logos.com/Extended_Tips_for_Highlighting_and_Visual_Filters#Examples_of_visual_filters

Logos 5.1a Release Candidate 1 is custom installed on 240GB SanDisk SSD. Dell Inspiron 17R Special Edition has i7-3610QM with benchmark of 7,541 => http://www.cpubenchmark.net/high_end_cpus.html (ranked 88) Windows 7 Experience Index:

Primary hard disk is Seagate 5400 RPM, which is ranked 1,071 => http://www.harddrivebenchmark.net/hdd.php?hdd=Seagate+ST1000LM024+HN-M101MBB

Laptop has 8 GB of RAM so configured 512 MB as a RAM Disk for temporary files.

Keep Smiling [:)]

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