OT: Intriguing article on digital Bibles

Butters said:

Lee said:

It's no use trying to settle such a complicated question by the use of extreme examples. Illustrative, perhaps, but no more than that (pun intended).

Well, when you face something "complicated" - that's your view not mine - it's best to locate a principle. Otherwise you have no compass.  The Perpetual Candle is illustrative of a very useful principle.  

The Vigil Light has a long pedigree.

“Now the boy Samuel was ministering to the Lord under Eli. The word of the Lord was rare in those days; visions were not widespread. At that time Eli, whose eyesight had begun to grow dim so that he could not see, was lying down in his room; the lamp of God had not yet gone out, and Samuel was lying down in the temple of the Lord, where the ark of God was. Then the Lord called, “Samuel! Samuel!” and he said, “Here I am!” and ran to Eli, and said, “Here I am, for you called me.” But he said, “I did not call; lie down again.” So he went and lay down. The Lord called again, “Samuel!” Samuel got up and went to Eli, and said, “Here I am, for you called me.” But he said, “I did not call, my son; lie down again.” Now Samuel did not yet know the Lord, and the word of the Lord had not yet been revealed to him. The Lord called Samuel again, a third time. And he got up and went to Eli, and said, “Here I am, for you called me.” Then Eli perceived that the Lord was calling the boy. Therefore Eli said to Samuel, “Go, lie down; and if he calls you, you shall say, ‘Speak, Lord, for your servant is listening.’ ” So Samuel went and lay down in his place.”

(1 Samuel 3:1–9, NRSV)

alabama24 said:

I agree with George to a point about having a common translation, which is why I believe the text should be projected for all to read. "

We declare to you what was from the beginning, what we have heard, what we have seen with our eyes, what we have looked at and touched with our hands, concerning the word of life— ²this life was revealed, and we have seen it and testify to it, and declare to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was revealed to us— ³we declare to you what we have seen and heard so that you also may have fellowship with us; and truly our fellowship is with the Father and with his Son Jesus Christ. ⁴We are writing these things so that our joy may be complete.

1 Jn 1.1-4

I really don't care to have things projected for the congregation to read.  I would rather have them read a pew bible or simply sit and listen.  A book links to tradition making it clear that this is not a new invention whereas electronic media fairly screams "New, new, new."  It is not that I oppose the use of electronic media entirely; it is a matter of not wishing to have the message of newness intrude upon the tradition.  The codex has been mentioned as though it was a new thing at some point in the history of the church following the completion of the canon.  I think, however, that there is evidence that the church adopted the codex prior to the completion of the canon. 

Then I saw in the right hand of the one seated on the throne a scroll written on the inside and on the back, sealed with seven seals; ²and I saw a mighty angel proclaiming with a loud voice, "Who is worthy to open the scroll and break its seals?"

Re 5.1-2

Then I saw the Lamb open one of the seven seals, and I heard one of the four living creatures call out, as with a voice of thunder, "Come!"

Re 6.1

As each seal is broken, the events described therein occur.  There has generally been an assumption that the Seven-Sealed Book was a scroll, but I think that is erroneous.  Attempts have been made to explain how a seal of a scroll can be loosed to reveal only a portion of a scroll—Aune (I believe I remember) has a rather ingenious one in his WBC commentary on these passages, but I don't feel he has succeeded in explaining it.  I think the best explanation is generally the simplest:  It was a codex in which certain portions were held together much as one might put a clip on a few pages.  It is known as a fact that the Church quite early adopted the codex form, and I think this is evidence of that fact.  It would also tend to place the composition somewhat later than is generally supposed.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZJO35zU5bXg

George Somsel said:

I really don't care to have things projected for the congregation to read.  I would rather have them read a pew bible or simply sit and listen.  A book links to tradition making it clear that this is not a new invention whereas electronic media fairly screams "New, new, new." 

I would agree with you here, hearing is the most important thing, I can see how projected text would be nice in some ways but for me (and maybe I am being old fashioned here) it seems less than liturgically appropriate. I know when I have gone to stuff in the catholic church that my mother in law plays at I always hate when we are to sing from a projection. Now that might be partly because they execute it poorly (things are cut off, sometimes goes out of focus, it's out of time or they have decide to put a picture in the background making it all but unreadable. Now I will admit my vision is not the greatest at times. but with my glasses I do have normal vision and if I don;t have a migraine I should be able to see it ok at mdi church, I wonder how a little old lady  or someone with very poor sight deals with it at the back of the church. Our church in Calgary even have large print hymnals for those who need them… it seems to me that screens at a Church front offer less than ideal viewing options for many older parishioners.

-Dan 

alabama24 said:

MJ. Smith said:

There is a reason Bibles where chained to prevent theft and left open to promote reading.

I'd be more than happy to chain an iPad to a table somewhere for your congregations benefit. They do it at the Apple Store all the time. 

LOL I am just imagining pew iPads. everyone with a nice iPad. Bible, Hymnal and BCP…lol

-Dan

Dan Francis said:

In Canada the BCP has gone the way of the dodo almost. i can think of a couple still using it but most use the Book of Alternative service which is roughly like you 1979 BCP

Some here still use the 1928 version. 

alabama24 said:

Butters - I understand better now where you are coming from. Thanks for taking the time to explain.  Personally, I enjoy paper books as well... I love the tactile response I get from them. However, for me the utilitarian benefit of electronic media, in most cases, far outweighs the pleasures of paper.

Yes, but I don't think it's JUST that.  Buried in that long explanation, for example, is this:

[quote] Indeed, when I walk through my study: literally the conversations and dialogues with a given book, should it catch my eye, are reignited. I wouldn't give up that conversation and memory and ongoing community for anything. This would never happen if I were to walk past my iPad.

There is really something in that; something I imagine everyone can relate to.  There's something important about having one's books - out, in the open, lined up on shelves, that helps to keep them active in one's memory.  

Otherwise, out of sight, of of mind - to some extent.  And on a digital reader, they are pretty much "out of sight." 

As I wrote about a year ago on this forum in the context of a discussion on organizing one's library and tagging, et cetera: 

______________________

Butters wrote this [:)]

We are dealing with an exceedingly new medium for reading and learning "books" or texts - one that is characterized by a high degree of abstraction already. Why reinforce this difficulty with still more abstraction? What people are asking for, essentially ( or at least I am) is a way to root these abstractions into something spatial and visual; which is a way of making them "mine," and of creating a digital environment that I feel comfortable in, one that evolves with me. This is not only important for organization, it is intimately connected with memory and learning. Visual and spatial cues take advantage of what Coleridge called the "hooks and eyes" of memory. Said another way...

"Scientists theorize another factor, spatial context, is also particularly important when dealing with memorization. In his blog, neuroscientist Mark Changizi explains that "in nature, information comes with a physical address [and often a temporal one], and one can navigate to and from the address. Those raspberry patches we found last year are over the hill and through the woods -- and they are still over the hill and through the woods."

For millions of years before the Internet, "the mechanisms for information storage were largely spatial and could be navigated, thereby tapping into our innate navigation capabilities. Our libraries and books -- the real ones, not today's electronic variety -- were supremely navigable."

In other words, the human brain uses location to recall the words it reads, which helps reinforce the information. To trigger a memory, the brain might recall whether it read the information at the top, middle, or bottom of the page, remember a corresponding picture on the page, or even a page number -- essentially creating a mental bookmark to cue recall of the information."

http://www.mobiledia.com/news/133298.html

______________

Anyway, I think the value of paper books goes way beyond the tactile response from paper. 

~Butters  [:)]

I think you guys DO have middle ages churches (heavy traditions).

At our church, one lady brings her dog (not poor eyesight). A group of Christians attend from a home that are mentally challenged. Their singing is best described as interesting. Sometimes they wander around during services, joining the music team, etc. Sometimes little kids are up front helping the pastor (mimicry). I'd think our weekly visitors would have a heart attack, but they quickly join in, and return in later years.

At our Navajo church, it starts out with a few and ends up packed. Sometimes the Navajo pastor goes to another Navajo church but forgets to mention it. Sometimes a piano person isn't there so someone volunteers if we're lucky. Pew Bibles only make sense if the person reads. But the congregation is in 2 languages, so the pastor has to switch back and forth.

I think much of this thread represents luxuries of western Christiandom.

By the way, the full-fledged chapel in our house came from Vatican II. The latin priest from the valley below eventually 'transferred' to S Cal for the chapel of a well known actor, later director. At least so says our Catholic friends. 

Denise said:

 But the congregation is in 2 languages, so the pastor has to switch back and forth.

5　Now there were devout Jews from every nation under heaven living in Jerusalem. ⁶And at this sound the crowd gathered and was bewildered, because each one heard them speaking in the native language of each. ⁷Amazed and astonished, they asked, "Are not all these who are speaking Galileans? ⁸And how is it that we hear, each of us, in our own native language? ⁹Parthians, Medes, Elamites, and residents of Mesopotamia, Judea and Cappadocia, Pontus and Asia, ¹⁰Phrygia and Pamphylia, Egypt and the parts of Libya belonging to Cyrene, and visitors from Rome, both Jews and proselytes, ¹¹Cretans and Arabs—in our own languages we hear them speaking about God’s deeds of power." ¹²All were amazed and perplexed, saying to one another, "What does this mean?" ¹³But others sneered and said, "They are filled with new wine."

Paul Golder said:

Stumbled across this, seems topical to the discussion:

[View:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BbDTWxNHV9A:550:0]

Many great features but I could't imagine disturbing a church service by taking a poll….

-Dan