Seminary Books?

Just a thought here, but as I've been looking through my syllabi for Fuller Seminary, I've found only 1 book out of the next 22 books I will need to purchase available on Logos (Vyrso at that). For a Bible software program that markets itself as a powerful tool for seminary students, wouldn't it be a good idea to actually offer seminary books?

I realize all the hang ups with the publishers and the permissions, but I nonetheless am disappointed with the disconnect here.

Anyone else?

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Comments

Matthew C Jones

Anyone else?

Maybe the disconnect is predominantly with Fuller, No? I have found almost half of my required/recommended texts are available in Logos. There are so many books that can be used as textbooks that without co-ordination I doubt Logos will ever have all the titles needed.

David Thomas

A few months back I saw a forum post, blog post or received an email from Logos asking to forward copies of Seminary syllabi because they want to avoid the issue that Jesse is facing. I believe it was an email because I am currently receiving the academic discount.

JT (alabama24)

For a Bible software program that markets itself as a powerful tool for seminary students, wouldn't it be a good idea to actually offer seminary books?

Logos offers plenty of seminary textbooks... But I understand the disappointment when the ones you need aren't available. "Logos Edition" resources generally take awhile to make. In addition to the manual tagging, the license agreements with the publishers are more complicated. "Vyrso edition" resources can be made very quickly, but the quality can vary dramatically from one resource to another. Logos does not intend to carry two different versions of the resource, and so if a resource is a good candidate for a "Logos edition," it generally goes on the back burner until everything can be worked out and the book can be created.

About textbooks... I have perhaps a unique perspective, as I worked for Barnes & Noble Collegiate Bookstores while attending Seminary. I had inside knowledge both from the school side, and the bookstore side. There were problems each semester with obtaining the right books for all the classes. Most textbooks were procured for Most classes... But there were always things that caused troubles on both sides of the fence. One of the profs submitted the class reading list to the bookstore just a couple of weeks before class started... Not nearly enough time to get everything ordered and ready for sale by the time class started.

Logos doesn't have many of the issues that a "brick and mortar" college bookstore would have, but some of the issues remain. Think about this: When did the prof decide which books to use? How often do the reading lists change? How many seminaries are there in the US? How many classes does that represent? It would be crazy to think that Logos could keep up with ALL of the required reading lists for ALL of the seminaries in the US, especially when those reading lists are continually changing. Logos does have some special relationships with a few seminaries... I would assume that those seminaries get some special treatment to make as many books on their required reading lists available in Logos editions. Even then, my guess is that not all books are available. This is especially true when a prof changes his/her syllabus frequently and/or decides to use newly published (or new editions) of works.

Out of curiosity... If your required reading lists are digital, would you mind copy and pasting them here? It would be interesting to see what books need to get put into Logos.

Kent

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/521724#Comment_521724

A few of these are available.

Morris, Jesus is the Christ: Studies in the Theology of John (1989).

Towns, The Gospel of John: Believe and Live (2002).

Duvall & Hays, Grasping God’s Word (2012).

Goodrick & Kohlenberger, The Strongest NIV Exhaustive Concordance (2004).

Davis, Paradise to Prison (1998).

Walton, Chronological and Background Charts of the Old Testament (1994).

Moo, The NIV Application Commentary: Romans (2000).

Hindson, Revelation, Revelation (2002).

Hindson & LaHaye, The Popular Encyclopedia of Bible Prophecy (2004).

Miller, Daniel (1994).

Gonzalez, The Story of Christianity, Vol. 1 (2010).

Gonzalez, The Story of Christianity (2010).

Elwell, Evangelical Dictionary of Theology (2001).

Nash, Is Jesus the Only Savior? (1994).

Walvoord, Jesus Christ Our Lord (1969).

Boyd & Eddy, Across the Spectrum:Understanding Issues in Evangelical Theology

(2009).

Erwin Lutzer, The Doctrines that Divide (1998).

Beilby, Thinking About Christian Apologetics (2011).

Bush, The Advancement (2003).

Groothuis, Christian Apologetics (2011).

Ferguson, Church History Volume 1: From Christ to Pre-Reformation (2005).

Bettenson & Maunder, Documents of the Christian Church (2011).

Gonzalez, The Story of Christianity (2010).

McGrath, Christianity’s Dangerous Idea (2007).

Dobson et al., The Fundamentalist Phenomenon (1986).

Marsden, Fundamentalism and American Culture (2006).

Marsden, Understanding Fundamentalism and Evangelicalism (1991).

Gaustad, The Religious History of America (2002).

McBeth, The Baptist Heritage: Four Centuries of Baptist Witness (1987).

Enns, The Moody Handbook of Theology (2008).

Grenz, Stanley, and Roger E. Olson. Who Needs Theology? An Invitation to the Study of God.

Elwell, Evangelical Dictionary of Theology (2001).

Erickson, Christian Theology (1998).

Beck, Two Views on Women in Ministry (2005).

Erickson, Christian Theology (1998).

Fee, Paul, the Spirit, and the People of God (1996).

Hoyt, The Judgment Seat of Christ (2011).

St. Gregory, On God and Christ (2002).

Bray, The Doctrine of God (1993).

Feinberg, No One Like Him (2001).

Froese & Bader, America’s Four Gods (2010).

Gundry & Jowers et al., Four Views on Divine Providence (2011).

McCormack, Engaging the Doctrine of God (2008).

Vanhoozer, Nothing Greater, Nothing Better (2001).

Carson & Moo, An Introduction to the New Testament (2005).

Lea & Black, The New Testament: Its Background and Message (2003).

Scott, Jewish Backgrounds of the New Testament (2000).

Bruce, Paul: Apostle of the Heart Set Free (1977).

Carson & Moo, An Introduction to the New Testament (2005).

Lea & Black, The New Testament: Its Background and Message (2003).

Black & Beck, Rethinking the Synoptic Problem (2001).

Köstenberger, et al., The Cradle, the Cross, and the Crown: An Introduction to the

New Testament (2009).

Merrill et al., The World and the Word (2011).

Oswalt, The Bible Among the Myths (2009).

Walton, Ancient Near Eastern Thought and the Old Testament (2006).

LaSor et al., Old Testament Survey: The Meesage, Form, and Background of the Old Testament (1996).

Wright, Knowing Jesus Through the Old Testament (1995).

LaSor et al., Old Testament Survey: The Message, Form and Background of the Old Testament (1996).

Arnold, B. T. and B. E. Beyer. Encountering the Old Testament: A Christian Survey. 2nd edition. Grand Rapids: Baker, 2008.

Baker, D. W. and B. T. Arnold, eds. The Face of Old Testament Studies: A Survey of Contemporary Approaches. Grand Rapids: Baker, 2004.

Brisco, Thomas. Holman Bible Atlas. Nashville: B&H, 1998.

DeVries, Lamoine. Cities of the Biblical World: An Introduction to the Archaeology, Geography and History of Biblical Cites. Peabody: Hendrickson Publishers, 2006.

Dillard, R. and T. Longman III. An Introduction to the Old Testament. 2nd edition. Grand Rapids: Zondervan, 2006.

Harrison, R. K. An Old Testament Introduction. Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1979.

Hill, A. E. and J. H. Walton. A Survey of the Old Testament. Expanded and Redesigned. Grand Rapids: Zondervan, 2009.

Killebrew, Ann E. Biblical Peoples and Ethnicity: An Archaeological Study of Egyptians, Canaanites, Philistines, and Early Israel 1300-1100 B.C.E. Atlanta: SBL, 2005.

LaSor, W. S., D. A. Hubbard, and F. W. Bush. Old Testament Survey. 2nd edition. Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1996.

Matthews, Victor H. Studying the Ancient Israelites: a Guide to Sources and Methods. Grand Rapids: Baker, 2007.

Niehaus, Jeffrey J. Ancient Near Eastern Themes in Biblical Theology. Grand Rapids: Kregel, 2008.

Provan, I., V. P. Long, and T. Longman III. A Biblical History of Israel. Louisville: Westminster John Knox, 2003.

Rasmussen, Carl G. Zondervan Atlas of the Bible. Grand Rapids: Zondervan, 2009.

DMB

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/521724#Comment_521724

I wonder if there's an economic issue here. Even on Amazon I avoid clearly collegiate texts, they almost always being introductory or out of date.

Rosie Perera

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/521722#Comment_521722

Regent College does not publish its syllabi publicly on the web; you have to be a registered student in order to see them. I'm not sure they would want students sharing the syllabi with other institutions or Logos.

Regent has its own bricks and mortar bookstore (an excellent one, by the way, probably one of the top two theological bookstores in North America; bummer that they've just got a new website and their catalogue is not online yet on the new site). So they wouldn't want to facilitate students getting digital versions of their required texts, because it would sabotage the income of the school's own bookstore. I know that other seminaries (e.g., Westminster, Fuller, Denver) have their own bookstores too, and that might be their reasoning as well.

If Logos could work out some arrangement with seminary bookstores to have people buy the digital books from Logos via referral and have the seminary bookstore get a kickback, that might be a win-win situation. Logos would get more customers, and the bricks and mortar seminary bookstores would get some compensation for losing business to digital books.

I'm sure Logos would say that seminary bookstores are dinosaurs anyway, and they wouldn't want to do anything to help them continue to exist. But they do serve a purpose. There is a curatorial role that such bookstore managers serve, which Logos can't and won't provide. I can go into the Regent Bookstore and be fairly confident that all the books I find there are of excellent quality and would be useful in my developing thinking as a Regent student/alum. I'm sure that's true of different seminary bookstores, though the books in them will tend to be more geared towards their particular theological perspectives.

Doc B

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/521746#Comment_521746

Regent College does not publish its syllabi publicly on the web; you have to be a registered student in order to see them. I'm not sure they would want students sharing the syllabi with other institutions or Logos.

Unless something changed in the most recent Higher Education Reauthorization Act, any school which receives federal funds of any kind has to play be the Feds rules, and one of those rules is, syllabi are public documents and are not subject to FERPA restrictions. Additionally, they must be made available to accrediting bodies and other institutions in order for those institutions to allow the transfer of coursework.

Logos via referral and have the seminary bookstore get a kickback

This is a huge issue right now with all brick-and-mortar bookstores, and too big to get into here.

they wouldn't want to facilitate students getting digital versions of their required texts

That is against the law. In fact, we (and all institutions of higher learning) are now required to publish ISBN numbers with required and options textbooks in the class schedule so students can use alternative means of acquisition for textbooks. At this point, the law hasn't specified that schools cannot require a specific type of text (i.e. digital vs. hard copy) but I expect that to be the case by the next HERA passage.

Federal intrusion into higher education is at an almost unbelievable level, but because of the mindset that the government fixes everything, legislation will continue to be more and more onerous. It has been estimated by one economist (I don't have a link handy) that the average cost of college education would be 60% less without federal regulation. I think that's being generous to the feds.

SteveF

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/521750#Comment_521750

any school which receives federal funds of any kind has to play be the Feds rules, and one of those rules is, syllabi are public documents and are not subject to FERPA restrictions.

Is it possible that this is a USA versus Canada difference?

I ask that because [I think] the "Regent" that Rosie is referring to is in the Province of British Columbia? [I am pretty sure that there is a totally different "Regent" in the U.S.A?.]

Mitchell

Hey Jesse, fellow Fuller student here! I'm just finishing my first year in the MDiv program, and I've had similar problems with Logos availability, though some classes are better than others. I think part of it is the way Fuller profs tend to choose their books. They use a lot of recent publications from academic publishers, a lot of monographs from prominent theologians, and a lot of journal articles. Logos tends to focus on stuff that's marketable to a broader Evangelical base, and shy away from stuff that will only sell to academics.

It's a catch-22, because that's part of why I chose Fuller. Looking at syllabi, most other Evangelical seminaries worked from textbooks. Logos has more of those, but I'd much rather actually read Gustaf Aulen's Christus Victor (which is not in Logos) than what Wayne Grudem has to say about Aulen's views in his Systematic Theology (which is in Logos).

That said, Logos does need more primary sources for academic theology outside of the Evangelical bubble. I'm very disappointed they don't have the major works of Aulen, Yoder, Volf, Moltmann (outside a massively expensive collection), and many other important theologians and ethicists.

Just out of curiosity, what classes are you taking this fall?

mike

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/521786#Comment_521786

Gotta chime in on this one..

Yes, Logos doesn't have many of the books that Fuller Seminary recommend..

Required readings (click on classes's catalog number for books required & recommended)

I'll be really happy if Logos carry at least 50% of the required ones.

Matthew C Jones

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/521786#Comment_521786

they don't have the major works of Aulen, Yoder, Volf, Moltmann (outside a massively expensive collection), and many other important theologians and ethicists.

Important to whom? It is probably a supply & demand thing. They will sell more Wayne Grudem than all these others combined. How many of these authors would you buy at "massively expensive" prices? I would not buy them unless they were at Community Pricing levels. Supply & demand.

Rosie Perera

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/521763#Comment_521763

any school which receives federal funds of any kind has to play be the Feds rules, and one of those rules is, syllabi are public documents and are not subject to FERPA restrictions.

Is it possible that this is a USA versus Canada difference?

I ask that because [I think] the "Regent" that Rosie is referring to is in the Province of British Columbia? [I am pretty sure that there is a totally different "Regent" in the U.S.A?.]

Yes, Regent College is in Canada and is not beholden to the [U.S.] Feds. It doesn't receive any government funding from Canada anymore either -- hasn't for years. Canada stopped funding theological schools back in the 90's or so. Harder financially on places like Regent, but better to maintain their independence.

And Steve is correct. There is absolutely no connection between Regent College in Canada and Regent University in the US. Very different theologies (Regent U was founded by Pat Robertson and espouses his flavor of theology; Regent College is transdenominational, grad school only). People confuse the two all the time. Regent College had the name first. There was also a Regents (plural) College in York, England, now called Excelsior College (I guess they wisely decided not to compete for the name), and a Regent's University in London, both also unrelated.

Mitchell

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/521794#Comment_521794

Important to whom?

To me, of course!

But seriously, I understand the supply/demand thing. I'm not mad at Logos, they can sell what they want. But they would get more of my business if they sold this stuff.

Keith Gant

For each seminary course I had, the first thing I'd do was see how many of the textbooks I could get in Logos. For textual courses requiring commentaries, a high % were available (although occasionally only in sets, not for individual purchase). But for theology courses, very few were available. Also sometimes Logos did not have the latest version (for example, Logos STILL does not have the 2010 version of http://www.logos.com/product/555/the-dead-sea-scrolls-today, though when I needed it for a course in 2010 they told me it s/b soon).

I would add that having resources such as Anchor Bible Dictionary, ISBE, the IVP dictionaries, BDAG and other Greek tools, etc. in Logos, while not required textbooks, was a tremendous help on papers.

Like mike mentioned with Fuller, my school also makes its syllabi public: http://hst.edu/students/class-schedule-and-syllabi/

Jesse

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/521786#Comment_521786

Hi Mitchell

I actually live in Sweden and I'm doing the MAGL online courses. I really don't have a good paperback option. Besides the price of the book, I'll have to pay for shipping, which is sometimes more than the book itself, and then I'll have to pay "skatt" or import tax on the book, which can be 30 percent of the retail price (ahh socialism). So, the digital world is a must for me.

Some of the books I need are available in Logos, but they are apart of a large $400 package. I'm unable to buy the individual titles. Announcing the Kingdom by Auther Glasser for instance was the one available through Vyrso, but this book is 23 chapters and over 400 pages. Not having all the search features or even the page numbers for that matter, can make things more complicated.

I had to purchase NT Wrights' After You Believe on Amazon because I didn't want to buy his entire collection to get it with Logos. The same with Walt Kaisers' Missions in the Old Testament.

DMB

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/521829#Comment_521829

Keith's example of the DSS intro volume is a good one:

'An eminent Dead Sea Scrolls researcher, James C. VanderKam offers a popular, up-to-date introduction to the scrolls and the ongoing debate that surrounds their study.'

From 20 years ago.

Mike Childs

I think Logos would love to be able to provide books for seminary students, but it is impossible. Nearly every seminary professor selects his own text books, and you well know how eccentric and goofy those profs are. There is no telling what book they will select, (except they will probably be the most expensive.) Likely as not, they will pick one of their own books, or a book by one of their professors. There is no way Logos can publish whatever the thousands of seminary professors pick this semester.

If I were a seminary student again and Logos did not carry my textbook, I might see if there was a Kindle version of the textbook that could be converted into a Logos Personal Book.

Why, when I went to seminary, Logos did not even publish... Logos!

Doc B

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/521763#Comment_521763

Is it possible that this is a USA versus Canada difference?

Absolutely.

It would help if I remembered which institutions were in the USA (which I don't). :-(

Everett Headley

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/521892#Comment_521892

Just my .02: I did my undergrad at Southeastern Baptist Theolgical Seminary in Wake Forest, NC and half my MDiv there. I finsihed my MDiv online with Liberty. I think there may have been around 20% of the books I needed for class on Logos. Some is better than none, but still...would be nice to have them. I am now going back and getting rid of hardcopies and opting for Logos books.

Carl Sanders

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/521987#Comment_521987

I think another of the issues (speaking from the professor side) is that many professors don't even think about electronic copies or their availability. Sometimes a similar text with electronic options is available, but we're used to just choosing the one we want. It might be worth asking - "Is there an electronic version available for students who want it in that version?" - at least when we can. In many cases, the differences are small enough in terms of educational outcomes that the convenience or availability of electronic or Logos versions may outweigh any other advantages. Of course, sometimes we want/need the most current version - and the Logos publishing lag often creates some issues there.

And it's hard to keep track of which ones are in Logos and which ones are on Kindle and any other options - so many professors just think "Choose the text I want". I know I try to be aware of this - but for more recent books (or less mainstream evangelical ones) often Kindle is the option (though Logos is slowly making some progress in some breadth areas). As a heavy Logos user in a school that required Logos, I maybe had 50% Logos availability - and close to 100% electronic availability. It also depends on the field. Theology is less complete than commentaries and some areas of biblical studies.

And then there are issues of desk copies (mostly still print and perhaps skewing selection by professors as they land the latest "just released" book) and so on.

For schools that have made Logos (or some other platform, but it's mostly Logos) their standard (i.e., required), professors may begin to think about this more regularly. It's still a messy publishing world out there, however, and I don't think it will get substantially better for a while.

Rene Atchley

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/522125#Comment_522125

Perhaps one downside to total electronic library, which I found out in my D. Min program, is that once we get hooked on this delivery platform Logos drives the educational agenda. Theological education becomes the world according to Logos driven by what books the company decides to publish. Denominational distinctives begin to fade into the back as the theological worldview takes on the vanilla flavor of the company perspective on religious issues. In my own educational experience Logos did little to provide an alternative to the books published in the 1970's by foundational 20th century theologians. If they are going to be a "storehouse" of theological thought in this dark age they need to make much more room on their store shelves.

tom

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/521786#Comment_521786

Hey Jesse, fellow Fuller student here! I'm just finishing my first year in the MDiv program, and I've had similar problems with Logos availability, though some classes are better than others. I think part of it is the way Fuller profs tend to choose their books. They use a lot of recent publications from academic publishers, a lot of monographs from prominent theologians, and a lot of journal articles. Logos tends to focus on stuff that's marketable to a broader Evangelical base, and shy away from stuff that will only sell to academics.

It's a catch-22, because that's part of why I chose Fuller. Looking at syllabi, most other Evangelical seminaries worked from textbooks. Logos has more of those, but I'd much rather actually read Gustaf Aulen's Christus Victor (which is not in Logos) than what Wayne Grudem has to say about Aulen's views in his Systematic Theology (which is in Logos).

That said, Logos does need more primary sources for academic theology outside of the Evangelical bubble. I'm very disappointed they don't have the major works of Aulen, Yoder, Volf, Moltmann (outside a massively expensive collection), and many other important theologians and ethicists.

Just out of curiosity, what classes are you taking this fall?

When I was in seminary, I too had the same issue, and it was for the same reason. We used recent publications from academic publishers from non-evangelical prominent theologians along with journal articles.

What I did do was buy the kindle version of the text book when I could, and I then made personal book from it. I didn't do any tagging (too lazy), and it work just fine for me.

tom

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/521827#Comment_521827

Important to whom?

To me, of course!

But seriously, I understand the supply/demand thing. I'm not mad at Logos, they can sell what they want. But they would get more of my business if they sold this stuff.

[Y]

Matthew C Jones

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/522185#Comment_522185

Theological education becomes the world according to Logos driven by what books the company decides to publish. Denominational distinctives begin to fade into the back as the theological worldview takes on the vanilla flavor of the company perspective on religious issues.

I have always found this thought interesting. Imagine what Bob Pritchett's personal Logos library must look like. Does he have every Logos book ever published? Does he hide resources? Do the resources he has effect his personal theology?

I am a little confused here. Are you saying Logos has too much ecumenical fare? Are you saying Logos publishes too much theology of the past? Or are you just saying they do not publish enough modern theology? Or, as I suspect, are you saying Logos is not publishing what you find most valuable?

Rustamania

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/522249#Comment_522249

I consistently buy books from Amazon because they aren't available in Logos or are only available in large packages. It would be nice if the students that qualify for academic pricing could get books broken up from packages.

Robert G. Mettler

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/522252#Comment_522252

I consistently buy books from Amazon because they aren't available in Logos or are only available in large packages. It would be nice if the students that qualify for academic pricing could get books broken up from packages.

http://heidelblog.net/2013/09/get-thee-to-a-library/

Mitchell

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/522125#Comment_522125

It might be worth asking - "Is there an electronic version available for students who want it in that version?" - at least when we can.

Frankly I would be disappointed if my professors started doing that. Perhaps availability of an electronic edition could tip the scales if they're between two equally good books, but I would rather they choose whatever serves the best pedagogical purpose. I like using Logos, but I like great books more.

DMB

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/522358#Comment_522358

Looks like a potential Noet customer (above blog):

"I’m not writing against e-books, even though they still have weaknesses (e.g., footnotes don’t work and reading endnotes electronically is about as frustrating with e-books as it is in hardcopy)."

NB.Mick

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/521786#Comment_521786

Logos does need more primary sources for academic theology outside of the Evangelical bubble. I'm very disappointed they don't have the major works of Aulen, Yoder, Volf, Moltmann (outside a massively expensive collection), and many other important theologians and ethicists.

Just saw today that there's a selection of Yoder's recent works in PrePub, gathering interest - maybe you want to place a bid (you can buy today the more expensive Yoder Collection with slightly more dated works)

I'd much rather actually read Gustaf Aulen's Christus Victor (which is not in Logos) than what Wayne Grudem has to say about Aulen's views in his Systematic Theology (which is in Logos).

Aulen's Christus Victor really is a groundbreaking work and a glaring omission in Logos. Someone once wrote a suggestion for it. Since Aulen happened to be a Lutheran bishop, maybe the Lutheran product manager can be persuaded to follow up on this, maybe even more works from Aulen.

Mick

Rustamania

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/522358#Comment_522358

I consistently buy books from Amazon because they aren't available in Logos or are only available in large packages. It would be nice if the students that qualify for academic pricing could get books broken up from packages.

http://heidelblog.net/2013/09/get-thee-to-a-library/

That is fine, but not sure what it has to do with having required books from a syllabus that are available in both kindle and amazon and choosing one or the other.

mab

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/522663#Comment_522663

I'd be really amazed if you can't do 85-90% in Logos for the meat and potatoes of your seminary reading and studying, There will always be some books that you will need outside of that and I really recommend you use an old fashioned bound Bible plus your Greek and Hebrew in bound form as much as possible too.

You can and should query your profs if there's an equally useful alternative that you may have and borrow, buy or rent what you can't fill in Logos. FWIW, maybe it's in Kindle and that might serve just as well.

For those on a real budget, don't forget that mountains of books are public domain and a free ePub or PDF download (I did much of my ICC and some other older commentaries that way for awhile)

abondservant

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/522930#Comment_522930

Another SEBTS student here... Two of the books i needed out of 12 this semester were available in Logos. The rest were purchased either in Kindle or paper formats.

Kindle books are of course then converted to logos format with the hope that one day I can purchase them in Logos.

A few more were available actually but only as part of the Greek text book bundle.

Geo Philips

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/523116#Comment_523116

When I went to business school, all of the required text books were provided (in paper) as part of the tuition fee (this is not the norm!) All required journal readings were also printed out and give to us.

It is a great matter of concern to me (as someone who would like to potentially go to a proper seminary) that the cost of theological education is so high. With most 'secular' education programs in the US and Canada recognizing the dangers of high costs of textbooks and so forth, it is time for Christian schools to also a) come together with the publishers and form some sort of copyright licensing program or b) take a stand and look for alternative resources where available.

Just my not-needed, diversionary two cents [:D]

tom

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/522930#Comment_522930

I'd be really amazed if you can't do 85-90%

From my experience, not even close. I would say that it was under 5% of the books I used in seminary could be found in Logos. There was nothing In Logos that I could use for pastoral care, education, homiletics, systematic theology, liberation theology, church history, and a lot of other classes that I took.

There was BDAG,HALOT, Book of Concord, Luther's Work, and some commentaries; that was it (that I can remember).

NB.Mick

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/523139#Comment_523139

I'd be really amazed if you can't do 85-90%

From my experience, not even close. I would say that it was under 5% of the books I used in seminary could be found in Logos.

Okay, this varies widely... I checked the list of seminaries and ordered it by enrollment. It seems with nearly 10k students, Liberty is by far the largest. It seems they have only a sample syllabus posted online: "Biblical Hermeneutics and Exposition". I marked up in the Word document what is available from Logos: three of seven "Required Texts" plus surely everything to fulfill the requirements for "Recommended Materials".

Note that I marked yellow the year for Vanhoozers book, but it seems the 2009 version is just the paperback reprint of the 1998 hardcover (what's more, Logos uses the nicer 2009 cover art) and no real second edition.

Three out of seven is much less than 85-90%, but far more than 5%. To me it seems, while Lynden's motto "everything in Logos" is a nice goal, one strategy for the shorter future is to carry those books that are required reading in the large seminaries' highly visible courses (such as mandatory or high-frequented or pushed-out-as-samples). If we had seven out of seven here - which could still translate to 50% for a student in higher semesters with more exoitic electives - this would surely encourage more students to build their library in Logos rather than paper.

Ken McGuire

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/523206#Comment_523206

I last went to school back in the 1990's, and so, of course, practically nothing was available in Logos - it existed, but not even sure if I heard of it then. Very few of the books that I used there are available in Logos, even now. I am not even sure if real equivalents are available.

I am amazed at how much better things are now than when I was in school - or even when I got into Logos a dozen years ago. And yet, there is a lot left to go. And while Logos CAN be a good personal library, they are not a major research library - and with rights issues, might never be.

I must say that I am disappointed at how Logos does not work with major Web resources - eg. textweek, or major journal collections.

Lee

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/523231#Comment_523231

I am amazed at how much better things are now than when I was in school

Thanks for that healthy reminder! [:)]

mab

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/523235#Comment_523235

FWIW, I'm using some online seminary resources and based on what I gleaned from someone who went to DTS, for those doing Bible study, Logos is on track. Maybe I made the assumption that what one goes to seminary for is for what Paul told Timothy to be doing.

Perhaps that is no longer true. How sad!

Ken McGuire

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/523288#Comment_523288

FWIW, I'm using some online seminary resources and based on what I gleaned from someone who went to DTS, for those doing Bible study, Logos is on track. Maybe I made the assumption that what one goes to seminary for is for what Paul told Timothy to be doing.

Perhaps that is no longer true. How sad!

It may not be fair. It may indeed be sad, but we people expect our ministers to know a lot of things and to have gifts in many different things. Of course our ministers should have a certain level of Bible knowledge - and the ability to continue learning more about it. But we also expect a certain professionalism. And yes, sometimes we focus on this rather than on the Good News of Jesus - this is a very real danger. But the reality is that every public act you do is compared with the polished performances of we see on television. Again, it may not be fair, but it is a reality. And so professional education (seminary) should prepare people for the reality - and not just the ideal situation of what parishes should be like.

We expect that when we go in for counseling that our ministers have at least an awareness of secular counseling, and the wisdom to know what they can and can't do. We expect that our ministers know what is going on in the world - but secular and religious. And this means you have to be up to date - and up to date in YOUR context.

SDG

Ken McGuire

Kevin A. Purcell

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/521987#Comment_521987

Just my .02: I did my undergrad at Southeastern Baptist Theolgical Seminary in Wake Forest, NC and half my MDiv there. I finsihed my MDiv online with Liberty. I think there may have been around 20% of the books I needed for class on Logos. Some is better than none, but still...would be nice to have them. I am now going back and getting rid of hardcopies and opting for Logos books.

My son is a current Southeastern College student at Southeastern Baptist Theol Sem and he can't find most of his books on Logos.

Matthew C Jones

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/524048#Comment_524048

I really hated to do it but I had to buy a Kindle book and a paperback today because they were not in Logos. They were required texts. [:(]

Mitchell

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/525495#Comment_525495

I really hated to do it but I had to buy a Kindle book and a paperback today because they were not in Logos. They were required texts.

If it helps, you can still search through books you only own on dead trees using Google Books. It's no fully tagged Logos resource, but it's better than nothing.

Alan Charles Gielczyk

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/525509#Comment_525509

I am currently working on my MDiv. at Reformed Theological Seminary and find about 70-80% of my books in Logos. I am quite happy about that.

TCBlack

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/525495#Comment_525495

I really hated to do it but I had to buy a Kindle book and a paperback today because they were not in Logos. They were required texts.

I feel your pain. I always buy books down the same hill: Logos>>Kindle>>Other Epub>>Paper.

I recently had to deviate and buy Jacob Milgrom's AYB Leviticus commentary in Paper because Logos has the entire AYB bundled, and I can't spin that much cash for one three volume commentary (and a bunch of others I don't yet need).

Matthew C Jones

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/525509#Comment_525509

If it helps, you can still search through books you only own on dead trees using Google Books. It's no fully tagged Logos resource, but it's better than nothing.

I did not know that. Thank you for telling me.

Nathan Parker

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/521987#Comment_521987

For me it's a mix. Many of my books are in Logos format, while some are only available in print. Here's what I "usually" do:

1. I check my current Logos library to see if I already have the textbook. If I do, I just read it in Logos format. Saves me from having to purchase the book.

2. For most books, I usually purchase them in print unless it's something I REALLY want to keep in Logos format. That way I can turn around and sell them on Amazon at the end of the semester to cover the costs of my next semester's books. I don't want to go through the hassle of license transfers in Logos with disposable textbooks.

3. If it's a book I end up loving and something I'll frequently use again, I'll sell the print version on Amazon and re-purchase in Logos so I always have a searchable copy.

Plus I draw on my Logos library and purposely purchase titles I use in reports, etc., in Logos format as well.

When I get into Greek/Hebrew classes, I'll probably stick with most of my books (grammars, lexicons, interlinears, etc.) in Logos. I don't want to have to drag those books around in print, and I probably own most of them or can easily get most of them in Logos.

abondservant

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/525766#Comment_525766

For me it's a mix. Many of my books are in Logos format, while some are only available in print. Here's what I "usually" do:

1. I check my current Logos library to see if I already have the textbook. If I do, I just read it in Logos format. Saves me from having to purchase the book.

2. For most books, I usually purchase them in print unless it's something I REALLY want to keep in Logos format. That way I can turn around and sell them on Amazon at the end of the semester to cover the costs of my next semester's books. I don't want to go through the hassle of license transfers in Logos with disposable textbooks.

3. If it's a book I end up loving and something I'll frequently use again, I'll sell the print version on Amazon and re-purchase in Logos so I always have a searchable copy.

Plus I draw on my Logos library and purposely purchase titles I use in reports, etc., in Logos format as well.

When I get into Greek/Hebrew classes, I'll probably stick with most of my books (grammars, lexicons, interlinears, etc.) in Logos. I don't want to have to drag those books around in print, and I probably own most of them or can easily get most of them in Logos.

Taking greek this semester, and my prof had the T.A. present a bunch of books that he highly recomended we aquire in addition to the primary text (S.M. Baugh wrote the primary). 10 of the greek titles listed here: http://www.logos.com/product/32713/zondervan-biblical-languages-collection were on his STRONGLY recommended list.

However as is likely the case for many students, 600$ is shooting for the moon.

Perhaps if they were separate....

Wild Eagle

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/525774#Comment_525774

A look for positive perspective:

When I see that costumers are expecting to find educational books in Logos, that's a good sign that Logos has a huge collection. Few years ago, costumers did not have such expectation

Erik

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/525782#Comment_525782

A look for positive perspective:

When I see that costumers are expecting to find educational books in Logos, that's a good sign that Logos has a huge collection. Few years ago, costumers did not have such expectation

Agreed! If you compare the current offerings to what was available in L3, there is simply no comparison. The number of quality resources has exponentially increased in the last 5-7 years. Although I have had trouble in the past finding my seminary books in Logos, things are getting better. I am currently part-time in seminary, but this semester I was able to find all of my books in the program. That has been an amazing blessing in allowing me to use my Nexus 7 to read while on breaks at the office, rather than having to carry a print library with me daily.

Rustamania

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/526902#Comment_526902

Apologize for reviving an old thread, but I thought I would post this semester's books. I work in the software industry, so I am only able to take one course per semester. I'm not sure if it is helpful to Logos or not to see what they are missing out on, but I would think it could be beneficial:

Available and purchased in Logos:

A Concise History of Christian Thought: Completely Revised and Expanded Edition

Available in Logos, but not purchased:

The Story of Christianity: Volume 2: Only available in Spanish

The Old Religion in a New World: Only available as part of a package for $77 so I had to purchase elsewhere for approx $15.

Institutes of the Christian Religion: Still deciding on this one. May go ahead and purchase in Logos, but it's hard to pass up for free elsewhere.

Not Available

Readings in the History of Christian Theology, Volume 2