Why transfer fees?

Bohuslav Wojnar · June 2009

Jun 17, 2009

Sorry it's taken so long for me to jump in on this. I've been wrestling the policy dragon.

BOTTOM LINE:

We're removing the 10% fee and setting the fee at a fixed $20.

LONG EXPLANATION, PART 1:

No product creator likes the second sale. Car manufacturers would prefer that your car disintegrated in five years to having you re-sell it to someone who might otherwise buy a new car. Book publishers wish you kept every book you ever bought. Manufacturers of dinner plates don't like garage sales.

Fortunately, cars, books, and dinner plates get dirty, worn, broken, and fall out of style. People prefer new ones to used ones. And they are physical goods that are a bit of a hassle to sell; even with the friction-reducing Internet, you still have to get the item from willing seller to wiling buyer.

Digital goods don't wear out or get dirty. Used copied are identical to new copies. Worse, they're easy to transfer. There are no shipping charges and there is very little market friction.

Some digital goods producers address this market-shrinking problem by introducing friction or planned-obsolesence. They sell the music wrapped in DRM. Or they deliver the ebook for a platform that will go obsolete. (I switched to Kindle; where are my Rocket eBook books? I switched to Blu-Ray, now my VHS tapes feel old. My music is in lossy MP3, but someday I'll want "High-Def Digital Sound" files, or whatever else.)

Other producers use rental; you can watch the video on-demand for a lot less than buying the Blu-Ray version, but you have to pay everytime you watch it. You can get all the music you want for free on Rhapsodiy, but you've got to continue your subscription every month.

I'm not saying you shouldn't be able to re-sell your digital content just like your physical content. I'm just saying it's tough on the content producers, because the more valuable and useful and portable your digital content, the more you'll expect to keep using it, to re-sell it, and to be supported on the various new platforms that come along. You may have bought the same music album on vinyl, cassette, and CD, but you (rightly) don't expect to pay three times for books from Logos. And worse (for Logos), you expect we'll be providing free technical support, software upgrades, and support for your latest choice in operating systems (not just the new Windows, but your switch to Mac or mobile or some yet-unknown machine) for the rest of your life. And the life of beneficiaries named in your will. And theirs.

Okay. But please appreciate that you're asking for (and getting) more from this than almost any other product. Your car warranty will end. Your paper books will deteriorate. (And before someone says "Kindle e-books are cheaper!", let me ask you if you got the Kindle reader for free, or a free upgrade to Kindle 2, or expect the next device to be free.)

Please note: I'm not complaining. I'm framing the discussion with, I hope, sympathy-inducing background.

LONG EXPLANATION, PART 2:

We built our license management platform around the (incorrect) expectation that we'd sell the books to individuals who would use them. End of story. We didn't have that many books at first, and most every sale was of a single, large collection with a serial number. It turns out some users stopped using them (graduated, retired, died, etc.) and in those cases it was easy to move the license to someone else on request. We just changed the customer record associated with the serial number.

Taking advantage of reduced physical costs for digital goods, we also created a lot of very high-discount book collections. Most of our base collections reflect a 90% discount from list price for the physical equivalents. We offer these discounts knowing that you don't want every book in the collection -- but you want some and someone else wants the other, and by bundling we can offer everyone a larger library.

Some customers jumped onto the idea of re-selling their licenses as a way not just to transfer their software to a friend at graduation or retirement (which we'd traditionally done for free), but as a way to make some cash by re-selling the contents of their collections. They would look at the 250+ books in their $630 Scholar's Library -- worth $6,000+ in print -- and figure that if they could sell just a portion of those books at 1/2 their retail price they could keep the rest of Scholar's effectively for free. Or better yet, make a profit!

Now if I run a store and sell an apple for $1, or two apples for $1.50, you might expect to be able to re-sell one of the two apples you bought as a bundle. You could sell it at 75 cents, reducing your single-apple cost by a quarter and giving the buyer a good deal. Or you could re-sell an apple for $1, cutting your apple cost to 50 cents. The store loses some margin, but you're taking on the cost of sales in time and hassle.

Would it be okay to walk out of the store and try to re-sell your second apple for 75 cents outside the store's front door, intercepting other $1/apple shoppers before they get inside? Wouldn't that seem a bit unfair to the store owner? Maybe, but maybe you can justify it. You did buy the apple, it's yours to do what you want.

How about posting a notice on the store's community bulletin board advertising your apple -- bought in a 2 for $1.50 bundle -- for 75 cents? Sure, the store owns the bulletin board, but it's open to the public to post things on it, right?

Okay, what if it's not apples, but two TV's? One flat screen LCD TV for $1,000, or two for $1,500. Free tech support and installation help. Now you want to buy two, re-sell one to someone else, but you want the store to provide tech support and installation help to you and the second person you just sold your second one to for $750. And you want to call them and have them make a new support account and transfer the serial number of the second TV to your new customer. The store had been planning on only having to explain the TV once -- but now they have to provide support and installation help to you AND the second customer. And they got $500 less than if they'd sold each of you a TV directly.

Now the store is offering a really killer deal. They've bundled three TV's, a universal remote, 25 pre-selected on-demand movies (a mix of movies you like and hate), an in-store class on setting up a home theater, a VIP tech-support number, and a semester-long film appreciation class at the community college. The whole package is $2,000, which is amazing, since the TV's alone are worth $3,000, the remote $250, the movies $250, the premium tech support $100, the in-store class $50, and the community college class $800.

Well, you only need two TV's, and so you don't feel bad selling the third one for $750. How about the movies? They aren't on DVD's you can hand out; they're codes attached to your on-demand account. Is it fair to ask the store to give these three codes to Sally, from whom you collected $30, and these five to Jim, from whom you got $50? And you hate classes; can you have them change the registration at the community college to whoever you can get to buy it? Maybe you can just post a notice on the bulletin board outside the community college registration office and intercept anyone who was headed there to pay for the $800 for the class with a killer deal at $400! Then call the store and have them send the new name over to the registrar.

Is this fair dealing? You could make the case. But to the store owner, it's not. Yes, I sold you all those things. But I built the bundle price around some assumptions: no one customer would ever choose all 25 of these movies, so the studios gave me a lower-than-normal price because I'm bundling them and making it up in volume, without really hurting standalone sales to those people who just _love_ movie 12 and would pay full-retail for it. And I know that only 15% of customers call the VIP support line, and that only 10% of people come to the in-store class, and that only 1 in 100 goes to the community college class, which is why the college sold the $800 class to me for $8 per customer.

Who is right? If the customer is right, that's fine. But it'll be the end of killer bundle deals. If the store owner is right, they're going to oppose un-bundling. Practically speaking, will they mind if you give away or sell one of the TV's? Probably not. Will they have a policy prohibiting unbundling or re-selling of the bundle components? Yes. (For a great example, read the fine-print on Disney World's multi-day park passes with regards to re-selling unused days!)

LONG EXPLANATION, PART 3:

We are all (digital content consumers and producers) still feeling our way around this big new world. Policies and procedures are changing, and we're all testing to see what works, what doesn't, what's affordable and what's not. Maybe re-sale of digital content is more important to consumers than producers thought. If so, producers will have to find out if they can afford it, and adjust their models if not. Maybe you'll keep buying e-content and be able to do whatever you want, but have to pay more for the content. Some publishers will move to multi-platform continuity while not allowing transfers to other users (Kindle), others to subscription models where you never "own" the copy (Rhapsody), others to releasing new platforms to obsolete old content, etc.

At Logos we've got two big goals: 1) Take care of the customer. 2) Stay in business. (Conveniently, #1 facilitates #2, and #2 ensures we can do #1.)

I hate policy, and try to resist it wherever possible. I tell our customer service reps that the only policy I care about is taking care of the customer.

People like policies, though. It makes the future knowable, provides clarity, absolves one of responsibility, eliminates difficult judgment calls, etc. Customers often plead for policies "so I know the rules", and employees want them so they can always know what to do. I understand this, and sometimes even admit it is necessary. I just hate policies and resist them as much as possible, because I believe that eventually every policy, no matter how well designed or well intentioned, will get in the way of Goal #1 or Goal #2.

(I'm sure you don't want to hear "trust me", but it really is a better answer than any policy I could give you on any subject. We're going to try to do right by you in every situation, and I don't want any unhappy customers. Ever. If you aren't happy, ask for me.)

One place we do need to make policies is on open-ended commitments. For reasons ranging from legal to accounting to simply mundane, we sometimes put a limit or rule in place to guard the downside. Controlling or charging for eternal license transfers gives us an out if things get out of control or abused. Similarly we publish a fixed number of days for our money-back guarantee, while in practice it is practically eternal. (An eternal money-back guarantee would cause 100% of revenue to be booked as a potential liability in your financial statements. You can practice an eternal guarantee -- precisely because not eveyone will use it -- but you can't publish it, because then you'd be dead if they did, and the financial accounting has to account for that possibility.)

So now, with a fixed license transfer fee of $20, I hope you'll find us fair. It costs us around $12 to take a customer service call, and there are other costs involved. (We need to redesign some of our systems to make this easier to do in the databases.) We're going to limit license transfers to "things you bought". That means you can transfer anything you purchased as a unit (which better matches what we track in our system), but we're not going to support unbundling a massively discounted collection so someone can make money re-selling a collection one book at a time for a sum more than the cost of the whole bundle.

Even this policy (which will take a few days to trickle through our people and systems) is just a foundation for accomplishing Goal #1 and Goal #2. If you think it isn't fair, or that you've got a special situation where we should act differently, just talk to us. There's no secret policy board, there's no diabolical plan to maximize profits at all costs; there's just a group of people who are trying to balance a lot of different goals that are in constant and changing tension.

Thank you for all your feedback here, and I'm sorry it took me so long to jump into the discussion. It doesn't take any time at all to waive a fee for any individual user -- but when you're demanding a new written policy, <smile>, it takes a little longer to line up the internal conversation and consensus.

-- Bob

(President/CEO, Logos Bible Software)

Bob, before I would say anything else, I want you to know I really appreciate the way you approach the issue and even more, your kind spirit expressed in your post. That is one of the reasons I want to stick with Logos. You explained many new things to me. Thank you. I perfectly understand the breaking collections thing. I know the easiness of transfering of digital goods might be quite challenging to the producers like Logos. That is why I really appreciate your way of explanation, and even more removing of the 10% transfer fee.

God bless you and keep up producing the best Bible software in the World.

ZoesProudDaddy · June 2009

Bob Pritchett

Jun 17, 2009

Sorry it's taken so long for me to jump in on this. I've been wrestling the policy dragon.

BOTTOM LINE:

We're removing the 10% fee and setting the fee at a fixed $20.

LONG EXPLANATION, PART 1:

No product creator likes the second sale. Car manufacturers would prefer that your car disintegrated in five years to having you re-sell it to someone who might otherwise buy a new car. Book publishers wish you kept every book you ever bought. Manufacturers of dinner plates don't like garage sales.

Fortunately, cars, books, and dinner plates get dirty, worn, broken, and fall out of style. People prefer new ones to used ones. And they are physical goods that are a bit of a hassle to sell; even with the friction-reducing Internet, you still have to get the item from willing seller to wiling buyer.

Digital goods don't wear out or get dirty. Used copied are identical to new copies. Worse, they're easy to transfer. There are no shipping charges and there is very little market friction.

Some digital goods producers address this market-shrinking problem by introducing friction or planned-obsolesence. They sell the music wrapped in DRM. Or they deliver the ebook for a platform that will go obsolete. (I switched to Kindle; where are my Rocket eBook books? I switched to Blu-Ray, now my VHS tapes feel old. My music is in lossy MP3, but someday I'll want "High-Def Digital Sound" files, or whatever else.)

Other producers use rental; you can watch the video on-demand for a lot less than buying the Blu-Ray version, but you have to pay everytime you watch it. You can get all the music you want for free on Rhapsodiy, but you've got to continue your subscription every month.

I'm not saying you shouldn't be able to re-sell your digital content just like your physical content. I'm just saying it's tough on the content producers, because the more valuable and useful and portable your digital content, the more you'll expect to keep using it, to re-sell it, and to be supported on the various new platforms that come along. You may have bought the same music album on vinyl, cassette, and CD, but you (rightly) don't expect to pay three times for books from Logos. And worse (for Logos), you expect we'll be providing free technical support, software upgrades, and support for your latest choice in operating systems (not just the new Windows, but your switch to Mac or mobile or some yet-unknown machine) for the rest of your life. And the life of beneficiaries named in your will. And theirs.

Okay. But please appreciate that you're asking for (and getting) more from this than almost any other product. Your car warranty will end. Your paper books will deteriorate. (And before someone says "Kindle e-books are cheaper!", let me ask you if you got the Kindle reader for free, or a free upgrade to Kindle 2, or expect the next device to be free.)

Please note: I'm not complaining. I'm framing the discussion with, I hope, sympathy-inducing background.

LONG EXPLANATION, PART 2:

We built our license management platform around the (incorrect) expectation that we'd sell the books to individuals who would use them. End of story. We didn't have that many books at first, and most every sale was of a single, large collection with a serial number. It turns out some users stopped using them (graduated, retired, died, etc.) and in those cases it was easy to move the license to someone else on request. We just changed the customer record associated with the serial number.

Taking advantage of reduced physical costs for digital goods, we also created a lot of very high-discount book collections. Most of our base collections reflect a 90% discount from list price for the physical equivalents. We offer these discounts knowing that you don't want every book in the collection -- but you want some and someone else wants the other, and by bundling we can offer everyone a larger library.

Some customers jumped onto the idea of re-selling their licenses as a way not just to transfer their software to a friend at graduation or retirement (which we'd traditionally done for free), but as a way to make some cash by re-selling the contents of their collections. They would look at the 250+ books in their $630 Scholar's Library -- worth $6,000+ in print -- and figure that if they could sell just a portion of those books at 1/2 their retail price they could keep the rest of Scholar's effectively for free. Or better yet, make a profit!

Now if I run a store and sell an apple for $1, or two apples for $1.50, you might expect to be able to re-sell one of the two apples you bought as a bundle. You could sell it at 75 cents, reducing your single-apple cost by a quarter and giving the buyer a good deal. Or you could re-sell an apple for $1, cutting your apple cost to 50 cents. The store loses some margin, but you're taking on the cost of sales in time and hassle.

Would it be okay to walk out of the store and try to re-sell your second apple for 75 cents outside the store's front door, intercepting other $1/apple shoppers before they get inside? Wouldn't that seem a bit unfair to the store owner? Maybe, but maybe you can justify it. You did buy the apple, it's yours to do what you want.

How about posting a notice on the store's community bulletin board advertising your apple -- bought in a 2 for $1.50 bundle -- for 75 cents? Sure, the store owns the bulletin board, but it's open to the public to post things on it, right?

Okay, what if it's not apples, but two TV's? One flat screen LCD TV for $1,000, or two for $1,500. Free tech support and installation help. Now you want to buy two, re-sell one to someone else, but you want the store to provide tech support and installation help to you and the second person you just sold your second one to for $750. And you want to call them and have them make a new support account and transfer the serial number of the second TV to your new customer. The store had been planning on only having to explain the TV once -- but now they have to provide support and installation help to you AND the second customer. And they got $500 less than if they'd sold each of you a TV directly.

Now the store is offering a really killer deal. They've bundled three TV's, a universal remote, 25 pre-selected on-demand movies (a mix of movies you like and hate), an in-store class on setting up a home theater, a VIP tech-support number, and a semester-long film appreciation class at the community college. The whole package is $2,000, which is amazing, since the TV's alone are worth $3,000, the remote $250, the movies $250, the premium tech support $100, the in-store class $50, and the community college class $800.

Well, you only need two TV's, and so you don't feel bad selling the third one for $750. How about the movies? They aren't on DVD's you can hand out; they're codes attached to your on-demand account. Is it fair to ask the store to give these three codes to Sally, from whom you collected $30, and these five to Jim, from whom you got $50? And you hate classes; can you have them change the registration at the community college to whoever you can get to buy it? Maybe you can just post a notice on the bulletin board outside the community college registration office and intercept anyone who was headed there to pay for the $800 for the class with a killer deal at $400! Then call the store and have them send the new name over to the registrar.

Is this fair dealing? You could make the case. But to the store owner, it's not. Yes, I sold you all those things. But I built the bundle price around some assumptions: no one customer would ever choose all 25 of these movies, so the studios gave me a lower-than-normal price because I'm bundling them and making it up in volume, without really hurting standalone sales to those people who just _love_ movie 12 and would pay full-retail for it. And I know that only 15% of customers call the VIP support line, and that only 10% of people come to the in-store class, and that only 1 in 100 goes to the community college class, which is why the college sold the $800 class to me for $8 per customer.

Who is right? If the customer is right, that's fine. But it'll be the end of killer bundle deals. If the store owner is right, they're going to oppose un-bundling. Practically speaking, will they mind if you give away or sell one of the TV's? Probably not. Will they have a policy prohibiting unbundling or re-selling of the bundle components? Yes. (For a great example, read the fine-print on Disney World's multi-day park passes with regards to re-selling unused days!)

LONG EXPLANATION, PART 3:

We are all (digital content consumers and producers) still feeling our way around this big new world. Policies and procedures are changing, and we're all testing to see what works, what doesn't, what's affordable and what's not. Maybe re-sale of digital content is more important to consumers than producers thought. If so, producers will have to find out if they can afford it, and adjust their models if not. Maybe you'll keep buying e-content and be able to do whatever you want, but have to pay more for the content. Some publishers will move to multi-platform continuity while not allowing transfers to other users (Kindle), others to subscription models where you never "own" the copy (Rhapsody), others to releasing new platforms to obsolete old content, etc.

At Logos we've got two big goals: 1) Take care of the customer. 2) Stay in business. (Conveniently, #1 facilitates #2, and #2 ensures we can do #1.)

I hate policy, and try to resist it wherever possible. I tell our customer service reps that the only policy I care about is taking care of the customer.

People like policies, though. It makes the future knowable, provides clarity, absolves one of responsibility, eliminates difficult judgment calls, etc. Customers often plead for policies "so I know the rules", and employees want them so they can always know what to do. I understand this, and sometimes even admit it is necessary. I just hate policies and resist them as much as possible, because I believe that eventually every policy, no matter how well designed or well intentioned, will get in the way of Goal #1 or Goal #2.

(I'm sure you don't want to hear "trust me", but it really is a better answer than any policy I could give you on any subject. We're going to try to do right by you in every situation, and I don't want any unhappy customers. Ever. If you aren't happy, ask for me.)

One place we do need to make policies is on open-ended commitments. For reasons ranging from legal to accounting to simply mundane, we sometimes put a limit or rule in place to guard the downside. Controlling or charging for eternal license transfers gives us an out if things get out of control or abused. Similarly we publish a fixed number of days for our money-back guarantee, while in practice it is practically eternal. (An eternal money-back guarantee would cause 100% of revenue to be booked as a potential liability in your financial statements. You can practice an eternal guarantee -- precisely because not eveyone will use it -- but you can't publish it, because then you'd be dead if they did, and the financial accounting has to account for that possibility.)

So now, with a fixed license transfer fee of $20, I hope you'll find us fair. It costs us around $12 to take a customer service call, and there are other costs involved. (We need to redesign some of our systems to make this easier to do in the databases.) We're going to limit license transfers to "things you bought". That means you can transfer anything you purchased as a unit (which better matches what we track in our system), but we're not going to support unbundling a massively discounted collection so someone can make money re-selling a collection one book at a time for a sum more than the cost of the whole bundle.

Even this policy (which will take a few days to trickle through our people and systems) is just a foundation for accomplishing Goal #1 and Goal #2. If you think it isn't fair, or that you've got a special situation where we should act differently, just talk to us. There's no secret policy board, there's no diabolical plan to maximize profits at all costs; there's just a group of people who are trying to balance a lot of different goals that are in constant and changing tension.

Thank you for all your feedback here, and I'm sorry it took me so long to jump into the discussion. It doesn't take any time at all to waive a fee for any individual user -- but when you're demanding a new written policy, <smile>, it takes a little longer to line up the internal conversation and consensus.

-- Bob

(President/CEO, Logos Bible Software)

Bob Pritchett said:
Snip

Bob,

Thanks for your reply, I appreciate it greatly as I am confident everyone else here does as well. I believe that you have put my concerns to rest and hopefully you have put others here as well.

Again, thank you for being a shining example of what a CEO should be for his customers.

Alan

Ted Hans · June 2009

Bob Pritchett

Jun 17, 2009

Sorry it's taken so long for me to jump in on this. I've been wrestling the policy dragon.

BOTTOM LINE:

We're removing the 10% fee and setting the fee at a fixed $20.

LONG EXPLANATION, PART 1:

No product creator likes the second sale. Car manufacturers would prefer that your car disintegrated in five years to having you re-sell it to someone who might otherwise buy a new car. Book publishers wish you kept every book you ever bought. Manufacturers of dinner plates don't like garage sales.

Fortunately, cars, books, and dinner plates get dirty, worn, broken, and fall out of style. People prefer new ones to used ones. And they are physical goods that are a bit of a hassle to sell; even with the friction-reducing Internet, you still have to get the item from willing seller to wiling buyer.

Digital goods don't wear out or get dirty. Used copied are identical to new copies. Worse, they're easy to transfer. There are no shipping charges and there is very little market friction.

Some digital goods producers address this market-shrinking problem by introducing friction or planned-obsolesence. They sell the music wrapped in DRM. Or they deliver the ebook for a platform that will go obsolete. (I switched to Kindle; where are my Rocket eBook books? I switched to Blu-Ray, now my VHS tapes feel old. My music is in lossy MP3, but someday I'll want "High-Def Digital Sound" files, or whatever else.)

Other producers use rental; you can watch the video on-demand for a lot less than buying the Blu-Ray version, but you have to pay everytime you watch it. You can get all the music you want for free on Rhapsodiy, but you've got to continue your subscription every month.

I'm not saying you shouldn't be able to re-sell your digital content just like your physical content. I'm just saying it's tough on the content producers, because the more valuable and useful and portable your digital content, the more you'll expect to keep using it, to re-sell it, and to be supported on the various new platforms that come along. You may have bought the same music album on vinyl, cassette, and CD, but you (rightly) don't expect to pay three times for books from Logos. And worse (for Logos), you expect we'll be providing free technical support, software upgrades, and support for your latest choice in operating systems (not just the new Windows, but your switch to Mac or mobile or some yet-unknown machine) for the rest of your life. And the life of beneficiaries named in your will. And theirs.

Okay. But please appreciate that you're asking for (and getting) more from this than almost any other product. Your car warranty will end. Your paper books will deteriorate. (And before someone says "Kindle e-books are cheaper!", let me ask you if you got the Kindle reader for free, or a free upgrade to Kindle 2, or expect the next device to be free.)

Please note: I'm not complaining. I'm framing the discussion with, I hope, sympathy-inducing background.

LONG EXPLANATION, PART 2:

We built our license management platform around the (incorrect) expectation that we'd sell the books to individuals who would use them. End of story. We didn't have that many books at first, and most every sale was of a single, large collection with a serial number. It turns out some users stopped using them (graduated, retired, died, etc.) and in those cases it was easy to move the license to someone else on request. We just changed the customer record associated with the serial number.

Taking advantage of reduced physical costs for digital goods, we also created a lot of very high-discount book collections. Most of our base collections reflect a 90% discount from list price for the physical equivalents. We offer these discounts knowing that you don't want every book in the collection -- but you want some and someone else wants the other, and by bundling we can offer everyone a larger library.

Some customers jumped onto the idea of re-selling their licenses as a way not just to transfer their software to a friend at graduation or retirement (which we'd traditionally done for free), but as a way to make some cash by re-selling the contents of their collections. They would look at the 250+ books in their $630 Scholar's Library -- worth $6,000+ in print -- and figure that if they could sell just a portion of those books at 1/2 their retail price they could keep the rest of Scholar's effectively for free. Or better yet, make a profit!

Now if I run a store and sell an apple for $1, or two apples for $1.50, you might expect to be able to re-sell one of the two apples you bought as a bundle. You could sell it at 75 cents, reducing your single-apple cost by a quarter and giving the buyer a good deal. Or you could re-sell an apple for $1, cutting your apple cost to 50 cents. The store loses some margin, but you're taking on the cost of sales in time and hassle.

Would it be okay to walk out of the store and try to re-sell your second apple for 75 cents outside the store's front door, intercepting other $1/apple shoppers before they get inside? Wouldn't that seem a bit unfair to the store owner? Maybe, but maybe you can justify it. You did buy the apple, it's yours to do what you want.

How about posting a notice on the store's community bulletin board advertising your apple -- bought in a 2 for $1.50 bundle -- for 75 cents? Sure, the store owns the bulletin board, but it's open to the public to post things on it, right?

Okay, what if it's not apples, but two TV's? One flat screen LCD TV for $1,000, or two for $1,500. Free tech support and installation help. Now you want to buy two, re-sell one to someone else, but you want the store to provide tech support and installation help to you and the second person you just sold your second one to for $750. And you want to call them and have them make a new support account and transfer the serial number of the second TV to your new customer. The store had been planning on only having to explain the TV once -- but now they have to provide support and installation help to you AND the second customer. And they got $500 less than if they'd sold each of you a TV directly.

Now the store is offering a really killer deal. They've bundled three TV's, a universal remote, 25 pre-selected on-demand movies (a mix of movies you like and hate), an in-store class on setting up a home theater, a VIP tech-support number, and a semester-long film appreciation class at the community college. The whole package is $2,000, which is amazing, since the TV's alone are worth $3,000, the remote $250, the movies $250, the premium tech support $100, the in-store class $50, and the community college class $800.

Well, you only need two TV's, and so you don't feel bad selling the third one for $750. How about the movies? They aren't on DVD's you can hand out; they're codes attached to your on-demand account. Is it fair to ask the store to give these three codes to Sally, from whom you collected $30, and these five to Jim, from whom you got $50? And you hate classes; can you have them change the registration at the community college to whoever you can get to buy it? Maybe you can just post a notice on the bulletin board outside the community college registration office and intercept anyone who was headed there to pay for the $800 for the class with a killer deal at $400! Then call the store and have them send the new name over to the registrar.

Is this fair dealing? You could make the case. But to the store owner, it's not. Yes, I sold you all those things. But I built the bundle price around some assumptions: no one customer would ever choose all 25 of these movies, so the studios gave me a lower-than-normal price because I'm bundling them and making it up in volume, without really hurting standalone sales to those people who just _love_ movie 12 and would pay full-retail for it. And I know that only 15% of customers call the VIP support line, and that only 10% of people come to the in-store class, and that only 1 in 100 goes to the community college class, which is why the college sold the $800 class to me for $8 per customer.

Who is right? If the customer is right, that's fine. But it'll be the end of killer bundle deals. If the store owner is right, they're going to oppose un-bundling. Practically speaking, will they mind if you give away or sell one of the TV's? Probably not. Will they have a policy prohibiting unbundling or re-selling of the bundle components? Yes. (For a great example, read the fine-print on Disney World's multi-day park passes with regards to re-selling unused days!)

LONG EXPLANATION, PART 3:

We are all (digital content consumers and producers) still feeling our way around this big new world. Policies and procedures are changing, and we're all testing to see what works, what doesn't, what's affordable and what's not. Maybe re-sale of digital content is more important to consumers than producers thought. If so, producers will have to find out if they can afford it, and adjust their models if not. Maybe you'll keep buying e-content and be able to do whatever you want, but have to pay more for the content. Some publishers will move to multi-platform continuity while not allowing transfers to other users (Kindle), others to subscription models where you never "own" the copy (Rhapsody), others to releasing new platforms to obsolete old content, etc.

At Logos we've got two big goals: 1) Take care of the customer. 2) Stay in business. (Conveniently, #1 facilitates #2, and #2 ensures we can do #1.)

I hate policy, and try to resist it wherever possible. I tell our customer service reps that the only policy I care about is taking care of the customer.

People like policies, though. It makes the future knowable, provides clarity, absolves one of responsibility, eliminates difficult judgment calls, etc. Customers often plead for policies "so I know the rules", and employees want them so they can always know what to do. I understand this, and sometimes even admit it is necessary. I just hate policies and resist them as much as possible, because I believe that eventually every policy, no matter how well designed or well intentioned, will get in the way of Goal #1 or Goal #2.

(I'm sure you don't want to hear "trust me", but it really is a better answer than any policy I could give you on any subject. We're going to try to do right by you in every situation, and I don't want any unhappy customers. Ever. If you aren't happy, ask for me.)

One place we do need to make policies is on open-ended commitments. For reasons ranging from legal to accounting to simply mundane, we sometimes put a limit or rule in place to guard the downside. Controlling or charging for eternal license transfers gives us an out if things get out of control or abused. Similarly we publish a fixed number of days for our money-back guarantee, while in practice it is practically eternal. (An eternal money-back guarantee would cause 100% of revenue to be booked as a potential liability in your financial statements. You can practice an eternal guarantee -- precisely because not eveyone will use it -- but you can't publish it, because then you'd be dead if they did, and the financial accounting has to account for that possibility.)

So now, with a fixed license transfer fee of $20, I hope you'll find us fair. It costs us around $12 to take a customer service call, and there are other costs involved. (We need to redesign some of our systems to make this easier to do in the databases.) We're going to limit license transfers to "things you bought". That means you can transfer anything you purchased as a unit (which better matches what we track in our system), but we're not going to support unbundling a massively discounted collection so someone can make money re-selling a collection one book at a time for a sum more than the cost of the whole bundle.

Even this policy (which will take a few days to trickle through our people and systems) is just a foundation for accomplishing Goal #1 and Goal #2. If you think it isn't fair, or that you've got a special situation where we should act differently, just talk to us. There's no secret policy board, there's no diabolical plan to maximize profits at all costs; there's just a group of people who are trying to balance a lot of different goals that are in constant and changing tension.

Thank you for all your feedback here, and I'm sorry it took me so long to jump into the discussion. It doesn't take any time at all to waive a fee for any individual user -- but when you're demanding a new written policy, <smile>, it takes a little longer to line up the internal conversation and consensus.

-- Bob

(President/CEO, Logos Bible Software)

Bob Pritchett said:

Thank you for all your feedback here, and I'm sorry it took me so long to jump into the discussion. It doesn't take any time at all to waive a fee for any individual user -- but when you're demanding a new written policy, <smile>, it takes a little longer to line up the internal conversation and consensus.

Thanks Bob for including "Long explanation 2" as background info which threw light on the true nature of things. "Long explanation 2" has gone a long way in calming my fears and without it (explanation 2) i still would have been disappointed even with the change in policy, as it is now i am not disappointed anymore. Some of your staff have been exceptionally kind and have gone beyond the call of duty in attending to my request/issues/difficulties. So i was surprise at the existence of such a policy & reading last years blog entry was not helpful but rather confusing. I did not understand the context as you have outlined it in detail. I can now see "There's no secret policy board, there's no diabolical plan to maximize profits at all costs; there's just a group of people who are trying to balance a lot of different goals that are in constant and changing tension". Now that you have cleared up the confusion i must say i am yours truly & i shall try and give you guys the benefit of the doubt next time, that is if there is a next time. We can all agree on this Logos Bible Software is the best in the world!

Kind Regards

Ted

Jack Caviness · June 2009

Bob Pritchett

Jun 17, 2009

Sorry it's taken so long for me to jump in on this. I've been wrestling the policy dragon.

BOTTOM LINE:

We're removing the 10% fee and setting the fee at a fixed $20.

LONG EXPLANATION, PART 1:

No product creator likes the second sale. Car manufacturers would prefer that your car disintegrated in five years to having you re-sell it to someone who might otherwise buy a new car. Book publishers wish you kept every book you ever bought. Manufacturers of dinner plates don't like garage sales.

Fortunately, cars, books, and dinner plates get dirty, worn, broken, and fall out of style. People prefer new ones to used ones. And they are physical goods that are a bit of a hassle to sell; even with the friction-reducing Internet, you still have to get the item from willing seller to wiling buyer.

Digital goods don't wear out or get dirty. Used copied are identical to new copies. Worse, they're easy to transfer. There are no shipping charges and there is very little market friction.

Some digital goods producers address this market-shrinking problem by introducing friction or planned-obsolesence. They sell the music wrapped in DRM. Or they deliver the ebook for a platform that will go obsolete. (I switched to Kindle; where are my Rocket eBook books? I switched to Blu-Ray, now my VHS tapes feel old. My music is in lossy MP3, but someday I'll want "High-Def Digital Sound" files, or whatever else.)

Other producers use rental; you can watch the video on-demand for a lot less than buying the Blu-Ray version, but you have to pay everytime you watch it. You can get all the music you want for free on Rhapsodiy, but you've got to continue your subscription every month.

I'm not saying you shouldn't be able to re-sell your digital content just like your physical content. I'm just saying it's tough on the content producers, because the more valuable and useful and portable your digital content, the more you'll expect to keep using it, to re-sell it, and to be supported on the various new platforms that come along. You may have bought the same music album on vinyl, cassette, and CD, but you (rightly) don't expect to pay three times for books from Logos. And worse (for Logos), you expect we'll be providing free technical support, software upgrades, and support for your latest choice in operating systems (not just the new Windows, but your switch to Mac or mobile or some yet-unknown machine) for the rest of your life. And the life of beneficiaries named in your will. And theirs.

Okay. But please appreciate that you're asking for (and getting) more from this than almost any other product. Your car warranty will end. Your paper books will deteriorate. (And before someone says "Kindle e-books are cheaper!", let me ask you if you got the Kindle reader for free, or a free upgrade to Kindle 2, or expect the next device to be free.)

Please note: I'm not complaining. I'm framing the discussion with, I hope, sympathy-inducing background.

LONG EXPLANATION, PART 2:

We built our license management platform around the (incorrect) expectation that we'd sell the books to individuals who would use them. End of story. We didn't have that many books at first, and most every sale was of a single, large collection with a serial number. It turns out some users stopped using them (graduated, retired, died, etc.) and in those cases it was easy to move the license to someone else on request. We just changed the customer record associated with the serial number.

Taking advantage of reduced physical costs for digital goods, we also created a lot of very high-discount book collections. Most of our base collections reflect a 90% discount from list price for the physical equivalents. We offer these discounts knowing that you don't want every book in the collection -- but you want some and someone else wants the other, and by bundling we can offer everyone a larger library.

Some customers jumped onto the idea of re-selling their licenses as a way not just to transfer their software to a friend at graduation or retirement (which we'd traditionally done for free), but as a way to make some cash by re-selling the contents of their collections. They would look at the 250+ books in their $630 Scholar's Library -- worth $6,000+ in print -- and figure that if they could sell just a portion of those books at 1/2 their retail price they could keep the rest of Scholar's effectively for free. Or better yet, make a profit!

Now if I run a store and sell an apple for $1, or two apples for $1.50, you might expect to be able to re-sell one of the two apples you bought as a bundle. You could sell it at 75 cents, reducing your single-apple cost by a quarter and giving the buyer a good deal. Or you could re-sell an apple for $1, cutting your apple cost to 50 cents. The store loses some margin, but you're taking on the cost of sales in time and hassle.

Would it be okay to walk out of the store and try to re-sell your second apple for 75 cents outside the store's front door, intercepting other $1/apple shoppers before they get inside? Wouldn't that seem a bit unfair to the store owner? Maybe, but maybe you can justify it. You did buy the apple, it's yours to do what you want.

How about posting a notice on the store's community bulletin board advertising your apple -- bought in a 2 for $1.50 bundle -- for 75 cents? Sure, the store owns the bulletin board, but it's open to the public to post things on it, right?

Okay, what if it's not apples, but two TV's? One flat screen LCD TV for $1,000, or two for $1,500. Free tech support and installation help. Now you want to buy two, re-sell one to someone else, but you want the store to provide tech support and installation help to you and the second person you just sold your second one to for $750. And you want to call them and have them make a new support account and transfer the serial number of the second TV to your new customer. The store had been planning on only having to explain the TV once -- but now they have to provide support and installation help to you AND the second customer. And they got $500 less than if they'd sold each of you a TV directly.

Now the store is offering a really killer deal. They've bundled three TV's, a universal remote, 25 pre-selected on-demand movies (a mix of movies you like and hate), an in-store class on setting up a home theater, a VIP tech-support number, and a semester-long film appreciation class at the community college. The whole package is $2,000, which is amazing, since the TV's alone are worth $3,000, the remote $250, the movies $250, the premium tech support $100, the in-store class $50, and the community college class $800.

Well, you only need two TV's, and so you don't feel bad selling the third one for $750. How about the movies? They aren't on DVD's you can hand out; they're codes attached to your on-demand account. Is it fair to ask the store to give these three codes to Sally, from whom you collected $30, and these five to Jim, from whom you got $50? And you hate classes; can you have them change the registration at the community college to whoever you can get to buy it? Maybe you can just post a notice on the bulletin board outside the community college registration office and intercept anyone who was headed there to pay for the $800 for the class with a killer deal at $400! Then call the store and have them send the new name over to the registrar.

Is this fair dealing? You could make the case. But to the store owner, it's not. Yes, I sold you all those things. But I built the bundle price around some assumptions: no one customer would ever choose all 25 of these movies, so the studios gave me a lower-than-normal price because I'm bundling them and making it up in volume, without really hurting standalone sales to those people who just _love_ movie 12 and would pay full-retail for it. And I know that only 15% of customers call the VIP support line, and that only 10% of people come to the in-store class, and that only 1 in 100 goes to the community college class, which is why the college sold the $800 class to me for $8 per customer.

Who is right? If the customer is right, that's fine. But it'll be the end of killer bundle deals. If the store owner is right, they're going to oppose un-bundling. Practically speaking, will they mind if you give away or sell one of the TV's? Probably not. Will they have a policy prohibiting unbundling or re-selling of the bundle components? Yes. (For a great example, read the fine-print on Disney World's multi-day park passes with regards to re-selling unused days!)

LONG EXPLANATION, PART 3:

We are all (digital content consumers and producers) still feeling our way around this big new world. Policies and procedures are changing, and we're all testing to see what works, what doesn't, what's affordable and what's not. Maybe re-sale of digital content is more important to consumers than producers thought. If so, producers will have to find out if they can afford it, and adjust their models if not. Maybe you'll keep buying e-content and be able to do whatever you want, but have to pay more for the content. Some publishers will move to multi-platform continuity while not allowing transfers to other users (Kindle), others to subscription models where you never "own" the copy (Rhapsody), others to releasing new platforms to obsolete old content, etc.

At Logos we've got two big goals: 1) Take care of the customer. 2) Stay in business. (Conveniently, #1 facilitates #2, and #2 ensures we can do #1.)

I hate policy, and try to resist it wherever possible. I tell our customer service reps that the only policy I care about is taking care of the customer.

People like policies, though. It makes the future knowable, provides clarity, absolves one of responsibility, eliminates difficult judgment calls, etc. Customers often plead for policies "so I know the rules", and employees want them so they can always know what to do. I understand this, and sometimes even admit it is necessary. I just hate policies and resist them as much as possible, because I believe that eventually every policy, no matter how well designed or well intentioned, will get in the way of Goal #1 or Goal #2.

(I'm sure you don't want to hear "trust me", but it really is a better answer than any policy I could give you on any subject. We're going to try to do right by you in every situation, and I don't want any unhappy customers. Ever. If you aren't happy, ask for me.)

One place we do need to make policies is on open-ended commitments. For reasons ranging from legal to accounting to simply mundane, we sometimes put a limit or rule in place to guard the downside. Controlling or charging for eternal license transfers gives us an out if things get out of control or abused. Similarly we publish a fixed number of days for our money-back guarantee, while in practice it is practically eternal. (An eternal money-back guarantee would cause 100% of revenue to be booked as a potential liability in your financial statements. You can practice an eternal guarantee -- precisely because not eveyone will use it -- but you can't publish it, because then you'd be dead if they did, and the financial accounting has to account for that possibility.)

So now, with a fixed license transfer fee of $20, I hope you'll find us fair. It costs us around $12 to take a customer service call, and there are other costs involved. (We need to redesign some of our systems to make this easier to do in the databases.) We're going to limit license transfers to "things you bought". That means you can transfer anything you purchased as a unit (which better matches what we track in our system), but we're not going to support unbundling a massively discounted collection so someone can make money re-selling a collection one book at a time for a sum more than the cost of the whole bundle.

Even this policy (which will take a few days to trickle through our people and systems) is just a foundation for accomplishing Goal #1 and Goal #2. If you think it isn't fair, or that you've got a special situation where we should act differently, just talk to us. There's no secret policy board, there's no diabolical plan to maximize profits at all costs; there's just a group of people who are trying to balance a lot of different goals that are in constant and changing tension.

Thank you for all your feedback here, and I'm sorry it took me so long to jump into the discussion. It doesn't take any time at all to waive a fee for any individual user -- but when you're demanding a new written policy, <smile>, it takes a little longer to line up the internal conversation and consensus.

-- Bob

(President/CEO, Logos Bible Software)

Bob

Thank you for the explanations. I really appreciate the change in policy.

Jack

Kevin A. Purcell · June 2009

Jack Caviness

Jun 18, 2009

Bob

Thank you for the explanations. I really appreciate the change in policy.

Jack

Wow! That is a great response. My earlier post reflected my frustration with how companies who produce digital content treat their customers. But Logos should never be lumped in with the rest.

Floyd Johnson · June 2009

Bob Pritchett

Jun 17, 2009

Sorry it's taken so long for me to jump in on this. I've been wrestling the policy dragon.

BOTTOM LINE:

We're removing the 10% fee and setting the fee at a fixed $20.

LONG EXPLANATION, PART 1:

No product creator likes the second sale. Car manufacturers would prefer that your car disintegrated in five years to having you re-sell it to someone who might otherwise buy a new car. Book publishers wish you kept every book you ever bought. Manufacturers of dinner plates don't like garage sales.

Fortunately, cars, books, and dinner plates get dirty, worn, broken, and fall out of style. People prefer new ones to used ones. And they are physical goods that are a bit of a hassle to sell; even with the friction-reducing Internet, you still have to get the item from willing seller to wiling buyer.

Digital goods don't wear out or get dirty. Used copied are identical to new copies. Worse, they're easy to transfer. There are no shipping charges and there is very little market friction.

Some digital goods producers address this market-shrinking problem by introducing friction or planned-obsolesence. They sell the music wrapped in DRM. Or they deliver the ebook for a platform that will go obsolete. (I switched to Kindle; where are my Rocket eBook books? I switched to Blu-Ray, now my VHS tapes feel old. My music is in lossy MP3, but someday I'll want "High-Def Digital Sound" files, or whatever else.)

Other producers use rental; you can watch the video on-demand for a lot less than buying the Blu-Ray version, but you have to pay everytime you watch it. You can get all the music you want for free on Rhapsodiy, but you've got to continue your subscription every month.

I'm not saying you shouldn't be able to re-sell your digital content just like your physical content. I'm just saying it's tough on the content producers, because the more valuable and useful and portable your digital content, the more you'll expect to keep using it, to re-sell it, and to be supported on the various new platforms that come along. You may have bought the same music album on vinyl, cassette, and CD, but you (rightly) don't expect to pay three times for books from Logos. And worse (for Logos), you expect we'll be providing free technical support, software upgrades, and support for your latest choice in operating systems (not just the new Windows, but your switch to Mac or mobile or some yet-unknown machine) for the rest of your life. And the life of beneficiaries named in your will. And theirs.

Okay. But please appreciate that you're asking for (and getting) more from this than almost any other product. Your car warranty will end. Your paper books will deteriorate. (And before someone says "Kindle e-books are cheaper!", let me ask you if you got the Kindle reader for free, or a free upgrade to Kindle 2, or expect the next device to be free.)

Please note: I'm not complaining. I'm framing the discussion with, I hope, sympathy-inducing background.

LONG EXPLANATION, PART 2:

We built our license management platform around the (incorrect) expectation that we'd sell the books to individuals who would use them. End of story. We didn't have that many books at first, and most every sale was of a single, large collection with a serial number. It turns out some users stopped using them (graduated, retired, died, etc.) and in those cases it was easy to move the license to someone else on request. We just changed the customer record associated with the serial number.

Taking advantage of reduced physical costs for digital goods, we also created a lot of very high-discount book collections. Most of our base collections reflect a 90% discount from list price for the physical equivalents. We offer these discounts knowing that you don't want every book in the collection -- but you want some and someone else wants the other, and by bundling we can offer everyone a larger library.

Some customers jumped onto the idea of re-selling their licenses as a way not just to transfer their software to a friend at graduation or retirement (which we'd traditionally done for free), but as a way to make some cash by re-selling the contents of their collections. They would look at the 250+ books in their $630 Scholar's Library -- worth $6,000+ in print -- and figure that if they could sell just a portion of those books at 1/2 their retail price they could keep the rest of Scholar's effectively for free. Or better yet, make a profit!

Now if I run a store and sell an apple for $1, or two apples for $1.50, you might expect to be able to re-sell one of the two apples you bought as a bundle. You could sell it at 75 cents, reducing your single-apple cost by a quarter and giving the buyer a good deal. Or you could re-sell an apple for $1, cutting your apple cost to 50 cents. The store loses some margin, but you're taking on the cost of sales in time and hassle.

Would it be okay to walk out of the store and try to re-sell your second apple for 75 cents outside the store's front door, intercepting other $1/apple shoppers before they get inside? Wouldn't that seem a bit unfair to the store owner? Maybe, but maybe you can justify it. You did buy the apple, it's yours to do what you want.

How about posting a notice on the store's community bulletin board advertising your apple -- bought in a 2 for $1.50 bundle -- for 75 cents? Sure, the store owns the bulletin board, but it's open to the public to post things on it, right?

Okay, what if it's not apples, but two TV's? One flat screen LCD TV for $1,000, or two for $1,500. Free tech support and installation help. Now you want to buy two, re-sell one to someone else, but you want the store to provide tech support and installation help to you and the second person you just sold your second one to for $750. And you want to call them and have them make a new support account and transfer the serial number of the second TV to your new customer. The store had been planning on only having to explain the TV once -- but now they have to provide support and installation help to you AND the second customer. And they got $500 less than if they'd sold each of you a TV directly.

Now the store is offering a really killer deal. They've bundled three TV's, a universal remote, 25 pre-selected on-demand movies (a mix of movies you like and hate), an in-store class on setting up a home theater, a VIP tech-support number, and a semester-long film appreciation class at the community college. The whole package is $2,000, which is amazing, since the TV's alone are worth $3,000, the remote $250, the movies $250, the premium tech support $100, the in-store class $50, and the community college class $800.

Well, you only need two TV's, and so you don't feel bad selling the third one for $750. How about the movies? They aren't on DVD's you can hand out; they're codes attached to your on-demand account. Is it fair to ask the store to give these three codes to Sally, from whom you collected $30, and these five to Jim, from whom you got $50? And you hate classes; can you have them change the registration at the community college to whoever you can get to buy it? Maybe you can just post a notice on the bulletin board outside the community college registration office and intercept anyone who was headed there to pay for the $800 for the class with a killer deal at $400! Then call the store and have them send the new name over to the registrar.

Is this fair dealing? You could make the case. But to the store owner, it's not. Yes, I sold you all those things. But I built the bundle price around some assumptions: no one customer would ever choose all 25 of these movies, so the studios gave me a lower-than-normal price because I'm bundling them and making it up in volume, without really hurting standalone sales to those people who just _love_ movie 12 and would pay full-retail for it. And I know that only 15% of customers call the VIP support line, and that only 10% of people come to the in-store class, and that only 1 in 100 goes to the community college class, which is why the college sold the $800 class to me for $8 per customer.

Who is right? If the customer is right, that's fine. But it'll be the end of killer bundle deals. If the store owner is right, they're going to oppose un-bundling. Practically speaking, will they mind if you give away or sell one of the TV's? Probably not. Will they have a policy prohibiting unbundling or re-selling of the bundle components? Yes. (For a great example, read the fine-print on Disney World's multi-day park passes with regards to re-selling unused days!)

LONG EXPLANATION, PART 3:

We are all (digital content consumers and producers) still feeling our way around this big new world. Policies and procedures are changing, and we're all testing to see what works, what doesn't, what's affordable and what's not. Maybe re-sale of digital content is more important to consumers than producers thought. If so, producers will have to find out if they can afford it, and adjust their models if not. Maybe you'll keep buying e-content and be able to do whatever you want, but have to pay more for the content. Some publishers will move to multi-platform continuity while not allowing transfers to other users (Kindle), others to subscription models where you never "own" the copy (Rhapsody), others to releasing new platforms to obsolete old content, etc.

At Logos we've got two big goals: 1) Take care of the customer. 2) Stay in business. (Conveniently, #1 facilitates #2, and #2 ensures we can do #1.)

I hate policy, and try to resist it wherever possible. I tell our customer service reps that the only policy I care about is taking care of the customer.

People like policies, though. It makes the future knowable, provides clarity, absolves one of responsibility, eliminates difficult judgment calls, etc. Customers often plead for policies "so I know the rules", and employees want them so they can always know what to do. I understand this, and sometimes even admit it is necessary. I just hate policies and resist them as much as possible, because I believe that eventually every policy, no matter how well designed or well intentioned, will get in the way of Goal #1 or Goal #2.

(I'm sure you don't want to hear "trust me", but it really is a better answer than any policy I could give you on any subject. We're going to try to do right by you in every situation, and I don't want any unhappy customers. Ever. If you aren't happy, ask for me.)

One place we do need to make policies is on open-ended commitments. For reasons ranging from legal to accounting to simply mundane, we sometimes put a limit or rule in place to guard the downside. Controlling or charging for eternal license transfers gives us an out if things get out of control or abused. Similarly we publish a fixed number of days for our money-back guarantee, while in practice it is practically eternal. (An eternal money-back guarantee would cause 100% of revenue to be booked as a potential liability in your financial statements. You can practice an eternal guarantee -- precisely because not eveyone will use it -- but you can't publish it, because then you'd be dead if they did, and the financial accounting has to account for that possibility.)

So now, with a fixed license transfer fee of $20, I hope you'll find us fair. It costs us around $12 to take a customer service call, and there are other costs involved. (We need to redesign some of our systems to make this easier to do in the databases.) We're going to limit license transfers to "things you bought". That means you can transfer anything you purchased as a unit (which better matches what we track in our system), but we're not going to support unbundling a massively discounted collection so someone can make money re-selling a collection one book at a time for a sum more than the cost of the whole bundle.

Even this policy (which will take a few days to trickle through our people and systems) is just a foundation for accomplishing Goal #1 and Goal #2. If you think it isn't fair, or that you've got a special situation where we should act differently, just talk to us. There's no secret policy board, there's no diabolical plan to maximize profits at all costs; there's just a group of people who are trying to balance a lot of different goals that are in constant and changing tension.

Thank you for all your feedback here, and I'm sorry it took me so long to jump into the discussion. It doesn't take any time at all to waive a fee for any individual user -- but when you're demanding a new written policy, <smile>, it takes a little longer to line up the internal conversation and consensus.

-- Bob

(President/CEO, Logos Bible Software)

Bob Pritchett said:
We're removing the 10% fee and setting the fee at a fixed $20.

Bob:

I will raise one question not addressed in your note. You have indicated that there is a flat $20 fee - but have have not indicated what this fee covers. Is

"Per transfer" - if I give to my son four separate items, all purchased separately, will it be a $20 fee or an $80 fee.
"Per item paid for" - again using the same example as above.

I expect this becomes a bigger issue if I were to retire and want to transfer my entire collection to my son.

Thank you for any additional details you can provide as to how the policy will be implemented.

Blessings,

Floyd

John Fidel · June 2009

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/677#Comment_677

Bob,

Thanks for the reply and the change in policy. Will downloads be available for transfer? I just changed my prepub for the NICOT/NICNT to CD because of the prior policy. I don't want to spend a grand and find that I cannot transfer it or give it away later in my life.

John Fidel

Lynden O. Williams · June 2009

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/703#Comment_703

John I have the same concern. I buy exclusively downloads. The cds take too long to arrive (in the Bahamas) 3 - 4 weeks, plus there is the cost of shipping plus 10% tax. There is no tax for downloads.

I have at least 5 or more lisences for the KJV. I can only use it once on my computer. What if I could give all except one of them to friends as a means of acquainting them with the software, which may convince them to buy one of yhe packages.

The more packages sold the more books published in Libronix. The more books published in Libronix, the cheaper the cost. This way everyone wins.

Bohuslav Wojnar · June 2009

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/704#Comment_704

Lynden Williams said:
I have at least 5 or more lisences for the KJV. I can only use it once on my computer.

If I understood Bob right, you would have to give one of your collections having KJV, not single KJV, if you did not buy it separatelly, what I doubt. There is no way you can give KJV which had been bundled with other resources you want to keep. That is OK. I understand that. What I would like to be able to give away is, if I bought separatelly some resource, for a full price, and latter I buy a collection with the resource included. It looks to me logical, that I would be able to give away the single resource I bought as a single resource, and give away collection if I bought a collection. Am I wrong in my thinking?

Don · June 2009

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/707#Comment_707

Bohuslav Wojnar said:

show previous quotes
Lynden Williams said:
I have at least 5 or more lisences for the KJV. I can only use it once on my computer.

What I would like to be able to give away is, if I bought separatelly some resource, for a full price, and latter I buy a collection with the resource included. It looks to me logical, that I would be able to give away the single resource I bought as a single resource, and give away collection if I bought a collection. Am I wrong in my thinking?

It would depend if you bought an upgrade package which was discounted because you already owned that specific resource.

Bohuslav Wojnar · June 2009

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/723#Comment_723

Don said:

It would depend if you bought an upgrade package which was discounted because you already owned that specific resource.

As you probably noticed I said: "if I bought separatelly some resource, for a full price, and latter I buy a collection with the resource included..." It is perfectly understandable that there can't be any re-sale or giving away if you used the resource for getting an upgrade.

Bob Pritchett · June 2009

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/698#Comment_698

I expect the fee will be applied "per transaction" -- if you want to transfer four products in one call, then one fee. If you call four times over four weeks, that's probably going to be four fees.

Bob Pritchett · June 2009

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/703#Comment_703

JohnFidel said:

Thanks for the reply and the change in policy. Will downloads be available for transfer?

Yes. There's no difference to our license system between a download and a disc delivery. The disc may have a serial number, but it's the same license system.

Floyd Johnson · June 2009

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/745#Comment_745

Bob Pritchett said:
I expect the fee will be applied "per transaction"

Thanks Bob - though it will be awhile (I hope) before it becomes an issue, I appreciate your thoughts.

Blessings,

Floyd

Robert · June 2009

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/677#Comment_677

Bob,

Thank you for this reply. I am grateful for the result since the 10% fee seemed a bit much to me, but the policy is not what I am most grateful for or most impressed with. Even though I didn't understand it, I had just sort of assumed Logos was trying to do what was best and had a reason for the fee.

What I would most like to express my gratitude for is the way Logos (obviously including Bob) has strived to make a profitable business that continues to develop the best tools available, while at the same time desiring to do what is best for the customer. In my view, Logos continues to strive to reflect what it means to be a "Christian Business". Are they perfect, "No", but since Jesus isn't the CEO and only employee perfect isn't going to happen.

Thank you Logos for your efforts to do what is best (and most honoring to Christ) in your business decisions. (Again, I can't read hearts, but it seems the decisions over the years have reflected this desire.)

Rob

Alain Maashe · June 2009

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/767#Comment_767

Bob,

Thanks for your gracious input

you have restored my faith in Logos and satisfied all my concerns

Alain

Brian Whalen · June 2009

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/488#Comment_488

Perhaps this is their way of battling piracy? I bought mine from a friend who wan't using it, so I had to pay this.

John Kaess · June 2009

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/677#Comment_677

Bob Pritchett said:
So now, with a fixed license transfer fee of $20, I hope you'll find us fair. It costs us around $12 to take a customer service call, and there are other costs involved. (We need to redesign some of our systems to make this easier to do in the databases.) We're going to limit license transfers to "things you bought". That means you can transfer anything you purchased as a unit (which better matches what we track in our system), but we're not going to support unbundling a massively discounted collection so someone can make money re-selling a collection one book at a time for a sum more than the cost of the whole bundle.

Thanks Bob. I own the Scholar's Gold along with many many other packages and resources. This policy is M0RE than fair. I would be very comfortable if you only transferred individual personal libraries in toto, not collections or resources purchased in any other form, ESPECIALLY not items bought from community pricing or pre-orders (and I have done a lot of those).

My single concern as I approach old age was that my large investment in Logos resources would be able to be passed on to my son. Personally, paying even $50 for being able to do that sounds like a good deal, but paying $1,000 or more for 10% of retail would be not only a hardship, but something that would give me very hard feelings toward Logos. I've been a Logos user since 2.0 days and have always found your policies and practices to be fair. Not only that, but you are still in business while other bible software products I've purchased are not. Keep up what you are doing and may God continue to bless Logos and you personally.

Mark · June 2009

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1210#Comment_1210

Yes, John, I am in agreement also with your post. Thanks Bob for clarifying the case. It would be nice if what you stated could not only be found on the forum, but also made clear in an article on the website. I say this because a year or two from now, it may be difficutl to find the post where Bob answers the transfer question.

J.R. Miller · June 2009

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/677#Comment_677

Bob Pritchett said:

Sorry it's taken so long for me to jump in on this. I've been wrestling the policy dragon.

BOTTOM LINE:

We're removing the 10% fee and setting the fee at a fixed $20.

Thanks Bob for taking the time to work this out and doing what is right be all of your customers. [Y]

Don · June 2009

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1243#Comment_1243

Bob & Logos are trustworthy!

Jim · July 2009

I too have several thousand
dollars wrapped up in my Logos library and am getting up in years so this is a concern. I paid for and own these
resource so I should be able to give them to whomever I wish and my
family should be able to manage that when the Lord takes me home without being gouged. It
would certainly be true for my computer and any physical books I own. I
can understand Logos charging a fixed fee for the work they must do to
transfer the registration of the resources (even if that's to pay for the programming it
would take to do it electronically) but frankly a percentage fee sounds
like a gouge.

<rant> Logos/Libronix has been a technology innovator in electronic libraries.
It seems their transfer policy hasn't kept pace. In a retail store, I can understand a restocking fee being a percentage of the price because it affects inventory and in some
cases more expensive may mean more handling and space (larger box) plus they want to discourage returns. But all the
resources are simple files and they don't have to be handled by Logos.
The
work involved in transferring registration has nothing to do with the price of the
object. Logos does not have to even handle the item. We are just talking about transferring the right to unlock it. How can that be a function of the value of the object? Perhaps they think that the recipient is getting a great bargain, but that ignores that the product was paid for in the first place.</rant>

Perhaps Logos could shed some light on this policy that we have overlooked?

J.R. Miller · July 2009

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/2677#Comment_2677

JimMcDaniel said:
Perhaps Logos could shed some light on this policy that we have overlooked?

Bob P. did this some time ago. Please read his post since this has already been resolved

http://community.logos.com/forums/p/87/677.aspx#677

Friedrich · July 2009

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/2678#Comment_2678

Wow, look at a what I missed while slogging it out at a great (and later, very muddy) Cornerstone festival! Appreciate the vigilance of the customers and the attentiveness (and pointed graciousness) of the company (and Bob, personally).

I DO appreciate the constant FREE upgrades in platform (unlike, say, MS) and I realize the value I have received from bundled resources. Am thankful I can pass on the licenses to my kids (hopefully they will use them), and hopefully there will continue to be software to use it on current systems of that future day.

Jim · July 2009

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/2678#Comment_2678

Wow. Now that's a quick solution. How appropriate that I'm studying the beatitudes - a quick lesson on meekness. Thanks Joe for putting and end to this before the thread continued in the wrong direction.

It was nice of Bob to take the time to develop clear analogies and help us understand his point of view. I know that the rise of digital information creates a number of problems for concepts of private ownership and payment of content creators and distributors that our society hasn't resolved very well. I've respected Logos' license mechanism and am happy to live with it partially because they set a good example of making it so painless and transparent.

I understand Bob's arguments, but I'm not sure I appreciate the problems of the shop keeper who creates a problem for himself by making assumptions that don't end up being true when he creates bundled deals. I think he should live with the ramifications of whatever he does.If he doesn't, wouldn't that mean that he would destroy a fundamental feature of free markets - the concept
of wholesalers and retailers and all the markups that happen between
the factory worker and the final customer?

On the other hand I understand that part of his problem is that he has
to navigate a broken (read evil) world that tries to exploit everyone
at every turn. Until Jesus comes, you
really only have two solutions, and we are wrestling with them even now
in our culture: free market or government controlled market. Well I
digress.

Anyway bravo for Logos.

John Hapgood · July 2009

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/677#Comment_677

Bob Pritchett said:

I hate policy, and try to resist it wherever possible. I tell our customer service reps that the only policy I care about is taking care of the customer.

People like policies, though. It makes the future knowable, provides clarity, absolves one of responsibility, eliminates difficult judgment calls, etc.

You know your a politician when . . .

The first thing you do when you get up in the morning is - Form a Policy!

Dean Chao · August 2009

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/746#Comment_746

Hi Bob,

http://www.logos.com/support/lbs/faq#transferlicenses

Logos FAQ page still says that downloadable resources are not good for transfer. is the page outdated?

thx

dean

Bob Pritchett · August 2009

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/4731#Comment_4731

I spoke ahead of things; I didn't realize we had technical issues that made transfering downloadable resources more difficult, and that we were prohibiting it for that reason.

Since I went ahead and said it was okay, the team has been trying to clear all the issues and make it work; the transition is still underway.

Sorry for the confusion!

-- Bob

Calvin Habig · August 2009

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/4782#Comment_4782

Thank you Bob. That means a great deal that you are doing that: not only in terms of the value of resources, but also in term so customer care. Thanks again.

Cal Habig

Brian Whalen · August 2009

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/4783#Comment_4783

I assumed this was a piracy cost reduction thing. I guess it also makes sense, that this is a way to offset the inevitable calls to TS that come with a transfer, I acquired my Scholar's Library that way, and made I believe 3 TS contacts.

Nathan Parker · August 2009

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/488#Comment_488

[[AUTHOR EDITED REST OF POST IN ORDER TO NOT MAKE TOTAL FOOL OUT OF SELF AGAIN]]

As far as the whole "employee" thing goes, the entire transfer transaction could be done electronically, costing Logos NOTHING in order to make the license transfer occur. In fact, we were recently discussing how we would implement that ourselves in the event we had to insert license codes in some of our products. We could electronically perform the transfers and never have to worry about a thing. Simple, secure, and it works.

Nathan Parker · August 2009

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1243#Comment_1243

Joe Miller said:

show previous quotes
Bob Pritchett said:

Sorry it's taken so long for me to jump in on this. I've been wrestling the policy dragon.

BOTTOM LINE:

We're removing the 10% fee and setting the fee at a fixed $20.

Thanks Bob for taking the time to work this out and doing what is right be all of your customers.

Just read this after submitting my post.

Thanks Bob! Sounds better, although if you look what I said about automating the process, that might allow you to even drop the $20 fee if you can automate things. We've got a great idea here in place I'd be willing to share more with you if you'd like. This would make the license transfer much easier.

I'm reading this at 3:00 AM and as always I opened my big mouth before reading everything.

Thanks again Bob, and if you'd like me to talk to you more about automating the license transfer (after I get a good night's rest and clear my head) I'd be happy to. It'd probably save you and your customers a lot of time and money in the long run.

Thanks and goodnight!

A very sleepy Nathan Parker

PS. I'm going to have to quit offering 24/7 support. :-)

J.R. Miller · August 2009

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/5249#Comment_5249

Hi Nathan,

You wrote, "[[AUTHOR EDITED REST OF POST IN ORDER TO NOT MAKE TOTAL FOOL OUT OF SELF AGAIN]]"

For those of us who subscribe via email, too late. We got your first post.

Lesson learned buddy.. don't post before you read. :-)

Joe

J.R. Miller · August 2009

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/5278#Comment_5278

Phil,

This is the second or third time someone has come to this old thread making brash and angry statements only to find Bob has already resolved the issue.

Might I suggest you edit the first post and put a link to Bob's answer.... or quite simply delete the thread and post Bob's answer in the FAQ section. It sure would prevent further miscommunications.

Joe

Bohuslav Wojnar · August 2009

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/5280#Comment_5280

Joe Miller said:

Phil,

This is the second or third time someone has come to this old thread making brash and angry statements only to find Bob has already resolved the issue.

Might I suggest you edit the first post and put a link to Bob's answer.... or quite simply delete the thread and post Bob's answer in the FAQ section. It sure would prevent further miscommunications.

Joe

Good suggestion. Thanks.

Nathan Parker · August 2009

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/5278#Comment_5278

Joe Miller said:
Hi Nathan,
You wrote, "[[AUTHOR EDITED REST OF POST IN ORDER TO NOT MAKE TOTAL FOOL OUT OF SELF AGAIN]]"
For those of us who subscribe via email, too late. We got your first post.
Lesson learned buddy.. don't post before you read. :-)
Joe

Hee hee! Yeah, I figured that out later when I got the email. I was too tired last night to even figure out that one. Oh well, for those that subscribe via email you got a nice little juicy thing to read that the rest didn't get to. :-)

Anyway, glad this is resolved. This is definitely better than the previous plan, and I believe down the road Logos can come up with ways to even make license transfers better for users through automation. I'm sure willing to post some suggestions if they need it (I know you're all saying, "I bet.")

Good idea on the suggestion to Phil. Posting it at the top or creating a new thread or new link or something with the resolved issue saves us from having to wade through the group to find the resolution and post comments that we (as in I) later regret. That would be great to update that.

Nathan Parker · August 2009

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/5319#Comment_5319

Why is it putting me as the author of this thread when I only replied (and I big one at that)? I'm guessing the forum engine like to blame the author on whoever yacks the most? :-)

Seriously, just wondering why I'm showing up as the author.

Thanks!

Jack Caviness · August 2009

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/5334#Comment_5334

Nathan

I believe "Author" should probably be labeled "Last Poster". I note that I am now listed as Author.

Jack

Nathan Parker said:

Why is it putting me as the author of this thread when I only replied (and I big one at that)? I'm guessing the forum engine like to blame the author on whoever yacks the most? :-)

Seriously, just wondering why I'm showing up as the author.

Thanks!

Don · August 2009

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/5337#Comment_5337

JackCaviness said:

I believe "Author" should probably be labeled "Last Poster". I note that I am now listed as Author.

Unless of course it is sent by instant messenger, in which case it would be "imposter."

John McComb · August 2009

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/5337#Comment_5337

JackCaviness said:

I believe "Author" should probably be labeled "Last Poster". I note that I am now listed as Author.

No, I think this is correct. You are the author of the last post and those links are supposed to be pointing to the last post (even though they aren't. Leastwise they don't navigate me to the most recent post when I click on them).

A link to the person who started the thread should be labeled "Originator".

Yours in Christ

John

davidphillips · August 2009

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/5370#Comment_5370

John, you may know this, but you can navigate to the last post by clicking on the time stamp of the post located at the far right side of the screen.

Bohuslav Wojnar · August 2009

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/5375#Comment_5375

David B Phillips said:

John, you may know this, but you can navigate to the last post by clicking on the time stamp of the post located at the far right side of the screen.

Although I am not John [:)], you made my day. I did not know we can do that. I was always angry on the system to click on the forum and than to the last page. Thank you so much for that simple trick information.

Matthew Owen · August 2009

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/5376#Comment_5376

Bob, thank you for the gracious and thoughtful response. I'm only a newcomer to this discussion. But having just purchased Logos for Mac a couple of months ago, this gives me great confidence in the company's transparency and integrity.

Nathan Parker · August 2009

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/5337#Comment_5337

JackCaviness said:

Nathan

I believe "Author" should probably be labeled "Last Poster". I note that I am now listed as Author.

Jack

show previous quotes
Nathan Parker said:

Why is it putting me as the author of this thread when I only replied (and I big one at that)? I'm guessing the forum engine like to blame the author on whoever yacks the most? :-)

Seriously, just wondering why I'm showing up as the author.

Thanks!

I'm seeing what's up now. Yeah, something needs to be "reworded" for clarity.

Mike Childs · December 2009

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/677#Comment_677

Bob,

I certainly appreciate your answer. It is well reasoned and most fair. I do trust you to do the right thing. You have proven trustworthy in the past. Thanks for caring.

Sometimes a license exchange results in more sales for Logos. My case for example: Another loyal Logos customer asked me to sell him my license to a commentary no longer available through Logos. I seldom used that particular commentary, but i wanted to upgrade my Logos library. The result is that by selling him my license on a commentary, I was greatly helped in the purchase of the Scholar's Platinum edition. That made everyone a winner: the other user, me, and Logos who got more sells.

Dirk Boersma · March 2010

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/677#Comment_677

Hi Bob, thank you for explaining the policy so extensively and clearly. The explanation why Logos cannot support reselling part of a 'killer deal' is very clear. I can see that you are doing everything to run an honest business, you have earned my respect. I have been a Logos user since 1993 and I am impressed. Keep walking in this direction under God's guidance, and you may enjoy the favor of the Lord!

Dr. Quentin Johnston · July 2021

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/677#Comment_677

Bob, thanks for this explanation. I have ben with Logos since the days of floppy discs and have gathered over the years a huge library from many sources. I wanted to give my entire account with all of my books to a younger chap just entering seminary when I retire. As things stand presently, would there be a one-time transfer fee of $20?

DMB · July 2021

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1173569#Comment_1173569

Dr. Quentin Johnston said:
As things stand presently, would there be a one-time transfer fee of $20?

Yes. Just remind your lucky chap, there's a one-time transfer limit (previous students endlessly transferring ... and refunding too, I assume).

David Paul · July 2021

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1173573#Comment_1173573

Nota Bene...readers should alert themselves to the caveat that this thread is over a decade old. The info in it may be current and relevent, but considering that the subject matter concerns the digital realm, where things can change rapidly, I wouldn't assume that to be the case. A more current voice should be consulted to confirm the current status of this issue.

DMB · July 2021

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1173629#Comment_1173629

David Paul said:
A more current voice should be consulted to confirm the current status of this issue.

Huh? Libby's wondering about your logic. A modern answer to a modern question, over top an older discussion.

Why transfer fees?

Comments

My Books in Logos & FREE Training

My Books in Logos & FREE Training

My Books in Logos & FREE Training

My Books in Logos & FREE Training

Welcome!

Welcome!

Quick Links

Categories