SOMEONE WHO WORKS FOR LOGOS, PLEASE READ THIS

Can you please - please stop releasing multiple updates every week? Indexing is a very intensive process, and it means that basically everyone's computer is operating at 100% of CPU for at least an hour, if not much longer.

TRANSLATION: We can't get work done.

What kind of quality management goes into dropping these updates? After having a 450MB drop on Monday, I just received a 325MB drop - in the middle of the day. Logos on my Macbook Pro has spent more time indexing this week than it has doing research.

I would expect this kind of thing on the Beta channel, but some of us are on the stable channel for a reason.

SIDENOTE: I appreciate all of the "be patient" comments that will be forthcoming from the Logos volunteer community. I am a very patient person, and I have been the "be patient" person in many situations; but after four years of this (since Logos 4), it is getting a bit tiresome.

Find more posts tagged with

Comments

Dan Francis

TRANSLATION: We can't get work done.

Go to Preferences

Under the Internet

Turn off automatic updates and do it manually only or set downloads to be late at night only. When it asks you to restart put it off till before you go to bed.

This is the best advice I can offer...

-Dan

PS: To manually Update-- In the command bubble next to Tools type UPDATE NOW and hit return.

Dave Hooton

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/529750#Comment_529750

Turn off automatic updates and do it manually only or set downloads to be late at night only. When it asks you to restart put it off till before you go to bed.

This is the best advice I can offer...

-Dan

PS: To manually Update-- In the command bubble next to Tools type UPDATE NOW and hit return.

If you set Automatically Download Updates to NO (= off) you will be notified about downloads. You can then choose to refuse it or accept it. If you refuse, the downloads will accumulate until you are ready to accept. "update now" is not necessary.

Wild Eagle

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/529759#Comment_529759

I think they answered here:

http://community.logos.com/forums/p/75548/529769.aspx#529769

MJ. Smith

Can you please - please stop releasing multiple updates every week?

I assume that you recognize that the continual updates is the price we pay for having Logos re-tagging old resources for new features. We don't have to repurchase the updated resources. Unfortunately, it does have the indexing downside you've noticed. As others have noted, taking control of your download (or being gifted with a super computer) is the solution.

Mark Johnson

A Logos employee posted on the Forum on Monday that there would be a lot of updates coming this week. Thank you Logos for the heads up on the update coming and for doing the updating.

David Paul

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/529812#Comment_529812

I do feel for those who experience significant turmoil from frequent downloading. I'm sorry for your inconvenience. That said, I personally appreciate the updates--it means that my Logos library is more and more "correct" as time passes. Frankly, there is a LOT more that needs to be done, but I appreciate what is being done.

Rick Brannan (Logos)

Hi Erik.

This was intended to be released as one update as explained in a post previous to the update on Monday morning (here: http://community.logos.com/forums/t/75548.aspx), but didn't end up that way (briefly explained in a follow-up here: http://community.logos.com/forums/p/75548/529769.aspx#529769 )

I understand the frustration. In the post referenced above, I mention that next time a large, foundational resource and data update like this one happens (which will not be soon, unless something very strange happens), we will work hard to make it go smoother and have ideas on how to make that happen.

My offer on the bottom of that post still stands. If you want to move the conversation offline, then please email me, and let's talk more about it.

Aaron Sauer

Man Erik, you seem very grumpy this week.

Dan Francis

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/529759#Comment_529759

If you set Automatically Download Updates to NO (= off) you will be notified about downloads. You can then choose to refuse it or accept it. If you refuse, the downloads will accumulate until you are ready to accept. "update now" is not necessary.

Never had it set to that… thanks for the info, it;s good to know.

-Dan

DMB

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/529860#Comment_529860

Forced updates (resources) are not a price I'm willing to pay. On Libronix (what a lovely memory), downloads were pickable.

I can understand downloads that are system required (eg datasets, etc). So .... required vs optional.

Now let me think ... which software company down the road from Bellingham lets you do that? Hmmm. Who could it be?

In any event, my automatic update and internet is set to 'off'. I'm kind of reluctant to turn them back on with all the updated resources I really have no need for ... many I've already read. Many I'll never read (reference).

Erik DiVietro

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/529821#Comment_529821

I have been a Logos user for nearly 20 years. I have used every iteration of this software.

Why am I frustrated? Because in the past four years, Logos has repeatedly dropped the ball on their core product. If this were the first time Logos had done something like this - or even the second, it would not bother me. But it isn't, is it?

Let's go back to November 2009 when Logos decided to release an alpha version of Logos 4 on Mac users. There was no notification about the state of the software at first (they later added a page justifying the decision). Like a number of other Mac users, I laid out my upgrade fee only to discover that the software was all but unusable.

Was Logos for Mac (the Mac version of Logos 3) a fully-rounded program? No. It was lacking in a lot of respects. Did it need to be updated? Absolutely. Was dropping an alpha as if it were a full product the answer? No.

I stuck with Logos for Mac through 29 (that's right, 29!) builds before it even got to beta. Why? Because I had paid for the thing. In August 2010, they got to the beta. Sure, they had some computers stolen (twice!) but that was no excuse for leaving us with a dysfunctional product for 10 months.

But it wasn't over yet, was it? Over the next year, there was a new build about every three weeks on average. It took until version 4.2b for the product to be usable in any practical way. Until that point, the software was buggy and lagged unbelievably.

Then, without much of any real preamble, in October 2012, we were welcomed into Logos 5. It was new and shiny, and we were all supposed to rush out and buy it. I didn't. I waited. Despite the unbelievable full court press on me from email, phone calls and even little pop-ups in my software, I stayed the course until Logos allowed us to download the engine for free - without all the "new" features (which I wasn't going to use anyway.)

And since that initial release?

November 02 - Service Release 1
November 05 - Service Release 2
November 21 - 5.0a Release
November 29 - Service Release 1
December 04 - Service Release 2
December 17 - Service Release 3
January 15 - Service Release 4
February 12 - 5.0b Release
February 19 - Service Release 1
March 19 - Service Release 2
April 23 - Service Release 3
May 16 - Service Release 4
July 1 - 5.1 Release
July 10 - Service Release 1
July 23 - Service Release 2
August 5 - Service Release 3
September 03 - 5.1a Release
September 04 - Service Release 1
September 16 - Service Release 2
September 23 - 5.1b Release

And every time we get a new release? Guess what we get to do? Re-index. This isn't a Word Processing software or a graphics manipulation software. This is a library research program. This isn't a $20 app we download on a whim. I've spent a lot of money on Logos; and I have encouraged dozens of other people to do so as well. I'm heavily invested in this platform. I've gone out on a limb to defend Logos, to promote the product. And Logos has just continued to let me (and many others, including my father who was one of their earliest adopters) down.

So, am I grumpy? Am I frustrated?

YES.

I live in New England. I have a number of friends who are software developers. I know how this works. Logos is doing a slipshod job of managing their system. I get it that we are being apologized to for the foibles. I get that human errors happen. I get that Richard Brannan is willing to say mea culpa and promise it won't happen again.

But guys, this has been a problem with Logos for four years. Something is wrong with the way someone is managing this. Do I blame Richard? No. Do I blame the developers? No, not really. Do I blame the management for allowing this to be the way Logos has run for four years? Yes. Yes, I do.

Do I think it will change? Sadly, no. No, I don't. And that frustrates me, because I expected more from the company that saw me through college and seminary and ministry. I expected Logos to operate like the company they should be. They should be producing a world-class experience. Instead, we get this kind of silliness that we had this week - over and over.

Mark Smith

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/529873#Comment_529873

Erik,

Being on the PC side I haven't had all the problems you have.

The person managing this is, as you know, Bob Pritchett. He has gone into detail about his philosophy of releasing software. I have openly stated my disagreement with him primarily because of the bad will it creates (and headaches for those of us on the Forums). Never-the-less I don't think he's going to change. (I've caricatured the approach as pull the trigger, then aim.) Basically Logos releases a product that is mostly functional but what some people feel is still a beta version. It doesn't yet have all the features promised. Those are coming and get added over time (usually). For Bob this makes good business sense and keeps the company in business. They don't sell software, just resources, so have to drive sales with new features and releases (my wording) or they are out of business. (I do want them to stay in business.) We can't compare what Logos does to Microsoft, Oracle, SAP, or the other giants. MS has so much cash it doesn't have to release within a few month window in order to stay afloat.

The updates are another issue. I would like to see them once a week for resources. I would also like to have the option of choosing which resources and datasets I want to download. Maybe I don't use a resource very much and don't care if I get the latest updated copy, or maybe I pay for my bandwidth by the month. For a number of possible reasons, more control would be good.

Gary Pajkos

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/529881#Comment_529881

Keep the updates coming. I want the latest and best functionality and fixes. Everyone else, switch the updates to manual and you have no problem.

JT (alabama24)

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/529873#Comment_529873

And every time we get a new release? Guess what we get to do? Re-index.

That isn't my experience. In fact, I would say it is very rare to perform a re-index. I'm not sure why your experience has been otherwise.

Erik DiVietro

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/529881#Comment_529881

I get the philosophy, Mark. I appreciate your candor.

Pritchett's approach is a valid philosophy when working with a productivity app or a mobile interface. That is where you see this kind of product release all the time. The issue with Logos is that while they might sell resources, their interface is the gateway to those resources. Not being able to access them because the interface is mickey-moused is just a bad business practice.

I too want Logos to remain in business. As noted, I am a long-time user and have long been an active proponent of the software. That is why I wish they would change this approach.

Let's be honest. Most of Logos' users are hardcore. There aren't many casual users among us. Those of us who use it have invested heavily in it. Maybe I'm the exception, but if Pritchett were to send us regular notices of development and say, "This feature is coming soon but we don't want to release it until you can use it right out of the gate", I'd be overjoyed.

Maybe it is because I am a Mac user (and was a Windows user for a long time before that), but I want things to just work. Take the extra time, do the extra work and make it happen.

Don't get me started on the completely featureless mess that was the mobile app when it first came out or the unfinished and practically useless biblia.com site...

These are not the practices of the company Logos should be.

Erik DiVietro

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/529884#Comment_529884

[quote]That isn't my experience. In fact, I would say it is very rare to perform a re-index. I'm not sure why your experience has been otherwise.

Do you have a base package that you "cross-graded" to?

I refused to buy the Logos 5 "package" because it was just charging me for things I did not want.

Lee

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/529884#Comment_529884

I really don't know much about the history and technical details of the indexing mechanism, but my impression is that the design philosophy and execution could benefit from a ground-up review.

Erik DiVietro

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/529883#Comment_529883

Keep the updates coming. I want the latest and best functionality and fixes. Everyone else, switch the updates to manual and you have no problem.

Gary, that's not the point. We all want the program to function properly.

JT (alabama24)

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/529886#Comment_529886

[quote]That isn't my experience. In fact, I would say it is very rare to perform a re-index. I'm not sure why your experience has been otherwise.

Do you have a base package that you "cross-graded" to?

I refused to buy the Logos 5 "package" because it was just charging me for things I did not want.

I own an L4 base package (platinum) and an L5 one (gold). I don't know what difference that would make, unless I am misunderstanding you.

My computer needs to INDEX often. I "purchase" free or inexpensive Vyrso books weekly. That isn't a "reindex"
I often beta test, which involves getting a "new version" as often as every week or so. Generally no indexing is involved.
Resources are updated frequently. I would say that a couple of times a month, some resource (or group) is being updated. This requires the resource to index, but no full reindex is required.

Erik DiVietro

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/529905#Comment_529905

I own an L4 base package (platinum) and an L5 one (gold). I don't know what difference that would make, unless I am misunderstanding you.

My computer needs to INDEX often. I "purchase" free or inexpensive Vyrso books weekly. That isn't a "reindex"

I often beta test, which involves getting a "new version" as often as every week or so. Generally no indexing is involved.

Resources are updated frequently. I would say that a couple of times a month, some resource (or group) is being updated. This requires the resource to index, but no full reindex is required.

I ask because I never purchased an L5 package. I think that might be the cause for at least some of the issues. In theory, my L4 library is upgraded, but knowing the way Logos drops support of previous versions, I'm sure there's a bug somewhere.

Also, I have an pretty large collection of non-English resources - around 1,500 of them.

DMB

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/529910#Comment_529910

Eric ... I'm like you. I was fired as an Original Languages owner and have a part-time job as a cross-grader (sounds like a crossing guard).

I don't have your issues but I agree with you that expensive software should 'work'.

Actually, my experience has been, the more expensive the software, the more screwed up it is. I use Finale and now Sibelius and both are a pain. On the other hand I have fairly sophisticated synths and they don't stumble, even under heavy preasure.

JT (alabama24)

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/529910#Comment_529910

I ask because I never purchased an L5 package. I think that might be the cause for at least some of the issues.

I can't imagine how.

In theory, my L4 library is upgraded, but knowing the way Logos drops support of previous versions, I'm sure there's a bug somewhere.

I don't know of many companies who bend over backwards as much as Logos to support previous versions!
Base packages and the software are completely unrelated. It has always been my contention that Logos should not call base packages by the software version.
L5 is really just L4 2.0. It is a further development of the same software.

Also, I have an pretty large collection of non-English resources - around 1,500 of them.

Perseus, or something else?

Kent

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/529884#Comment_529884

That isn't my experience. In fact, I would say it is very rare to perform a re-index. I'm not sure why your experience has been otherwise.

Mine does a re-index every time I buy a product.

JT (alabama24)

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/529929#Comment_529929

That isn't my experience. In fact, I would say it is very rare to perform a re-index. I'm not sure why your experience has been otherwise.

Mine does a re-index every time I buy a product.

Erik said his system re-indexed when a new version of the app came out. That isn't the same thing as purchasing a new resource.
When you purchase a new resource, your system indexes the new resource. It doesn't re-index!
When resources are updated, they are re-indexed... But your entire library isn't.

If you don't believe me, "purchase" a Vyrso freebie and time the indexing procedure. When it is done, type rebuild index into the command bar. Just don't blame me for the loss of the use of your computer for many hours. [;)]

Thinking

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/529750#Comment_529750

Turn off automatic updates and do it manually only or set downloads to be late at night only. When it asks you to restart put it off till before you go to bed.

This doesn't entirely solve all the problem, because there is no fully automatic way to do this updating. There are several steps where Logos stops, waiting for input from the user, so it doesn't just quietly go about its work through the night.

Is there some preference that I am not selecting? Does Logos give me the choice to automatically run the entire process from start of updating to completing indexing without further intervention? That would be a great option.

Right now I have to give it direction to install, etc. This is not currently an automatic process that can be done while I am away from the computer or sleeping.

Dan Francis

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/529970#Comment_529970

This is not currently an automatic process that can be done while I am away from the computer or sleeping.

I guess this is what we should be asking for...

-Dan

Thinking

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/530125#Comment_530125

This is not currently an automatic process that can be done while I am away from the computer or sleeping.

I guess this is what we should be asking for...

-Dan

Exactly.

Dave Hooton

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/530173#Comment_530173

This is not currently an automatic process that can be done while I am away from the computer or sleeping.

I guess this is what we should be asking for...

-Dan

Exactly.

It can be good provided it is an option. Even then be prepared for Logos to close when you are in the midst of a project (even if Logos waits until there has been no activity for a while) and begins indexing. If you then schedule the download to occur when you are sleeping make sure the computer is going to be awake!

Thinking

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/530179#Comment_530179

It can be good provided it is an option. Even then be prepared for Logos to close when you are in the midst of a project (even if Logos waits until there has been no activity for a while) and begins indexing. If you then schedule the download to occur when you are sleeping make sure the computer is going to be awake!

Let's get the feature first. My use of the feature would be to manually start the download update process just before I go to bed. It would complete its download, installation, and index through the night and be ready for use all upgraded and indexed when I got up. The process would continue without further intervention on my part.

Bradley Grainger (Logos)

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/530254#Comment_530254

My use of the feature would be to manually start the download update process just before I go to bed. It would complete its download, installation, and index through the night and be ready for use all upgraded and indexed when I got up. The process would continue without further intervention on my part.

You can almost do this already. (I'm not saying it can't be improved, just that a "good enough" solution may exist for the time being.)

In Logos 5, enter "update now" and let the check for updates run; this should take well under a minute in most circumstances. ("update resources" is a much lengthier check that is not necessary in normal circumstances.) As soon as the "Logos is downloading" notification appears, close Logos 5. The Indexer will continue downloading; when it finishes, it will notice that Logos 5 isn't running and will prepare and index your library. When you start Logos 5 in the morning, everything should be ready to go.

I know that this works on Windows in the current version. Until recently, the Mac version didn't automatically index if Logos 5 wasn't running, but I believe that has been fixed in a recent update. (I would have to ask a Mac team member on Monday to double-check this.)

There may be an extra step if you have "Automatically download updates" set to "No"... I'm not actually in front of Logos 5 to check right now, but I think that a button to start the download appears in the Program Settings panel when updates are available. (Sorry, it's been a while since I worked on that panel, so I don't remember exactly what it looks like.)

LimJK

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/530264#Comment_530264

Bradley, thanks, did not know that the download, prepare and indexing process can be done this way :-) as an integral process

You can almost do this already. (I'm not saying it can't be improved, just that a "good enough" solution may exist for the time being.)

In Logos 5, enter "update now" and let the check for updates run; this should take well under a minute in most circumstances. ("update resources" is a much lengthier check that is not necessary in normal circumstances.) As soon as the "Logos is downloading" notification appears, close Logos 5. The Indexer will continue downloading; when it finishes, it will notice that Logos 5 isn't running and will prepare and index your library. When you start Logos 5 in the morning, everything should be ready to go.

I know that this works on Windows in the current version. Until recently, the Mac version didn't automatically index if Logos 5 wasn't running, but I believe that has been fixed in a recent update. (I would have to ask a Mac team member on Monday to double-check this.)

There may be an extra step if you have "Automatically download updates" set to "No"... I'm not actually in front of Logos 5 to check right now, but I think that a button to start the download appears in the Program Settings panel when updates are available. (Sorry, it's been a while since I worked on that panel, so I don't remember exactly what it looks like.)

Thinking

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/530264#Comment_530264

You can almost do this already.

Thanks for the info. I generally do use the update now command, but did not know that it prepared and indexed the library with Logos not running. I think if this was made into a transparent one step process with one command, more negative comments would disappear. I know this process has been an impediment for me and one reason I recommend people to have as small a library as possible.

LimJK

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/530318#Comment_530318

In Logos 5, enter "update now" and let the check for updates run; ...

As soon as the "Logos is downloading" notification appears, close Logos 5.

The Indexer will continue downloading; when it finishes, it will notice that Logos 5 isn't running and will prepare and index your library.

When you start Logos 5 in the morning, everything should be ready to go.

I know that this works on Windows in the current version. Until recently, the Mac version didn't automatically index if Logos 5 wasn't running, but I believe that has been fixed in a recent update. ...

There may be an extra step if you have "Automatically download updates" set to "No"...

Bradley,

Thank you, thank you [:)]

I have just experimented on Logos 5.1b on Windows 8 on my VM. It goes all the way from downloading (0-100%), preparing (Stage 1-3), Indexing (0-100%) without intervention. By the way I have my "Automatically Download Updates" set to "No" ... it still works the same way your described [Y].

David Taylor, Jr.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/529873#Comment_529873

I have been a Logos user for nearly 20 years. I have used every iteration of this software.

Why am I frustrated? Because in the past four years, Logos has repeatedly dropped the ball on their core product. If this were the first time Logos had done something like this - or even the second, it would not bother me. But it isn't, is it?

Let's go back to November 2009 when Logos decided to release an alpha version of Logos 4 on Mac users. There was no notification about the state of the software at first (they later added a page justifying the decision). Like a number of other Mac users, I laid out my upgrade fee only to discover that the software was all but unusable.

Was Logos for Mac (the Mac version of Logos 3) a fully-rounded program? No. It was lacking in a lot of respects. Did it need to be updated? Absolutely. Was dropping an alpha as if it were a full product the answer? No.

I stuck with Logos for Mac through 29 (that's right, 29!) builds before it even got to beta. Why? Because I had paid for the thing. In August 2010, they got to the beta. Sure, they had some computers stolen (twice!) but that was no excuse for leaving us with a dysfunctional product for 10 months.

But it wasn't over yet, was it? Over the next year, there was a new build about every three weeks on average. It took until version 4.2b for the product to be usable in any practical way. Until that point, the software was buggy and lagged unbelievably.

Then, without much of any real preamble, in October 2012, we were welcomed into Logos 5. It was new and shiny, and we were all supposed to rush out and buy it. I didn't. I waited. Despite the unbelievable full court press on me from email, phone calls and even little pop-ups in my software, I stayed the course until Logos allowed us to download the engine for free - without all the "new" features (which I wasn't going to use anyway.)

And since that initial release?

November 02 - Service Release 1
November 05 - Service Release 2
November 21 - 5.0a Release
November 29 - Service Release 1
December 04 - Service Release 2
December 17 - Service Release 3
January 15 - Service Release 4
February 12 - 5.0b Release
February 19 - Service Release 1
March 19 - Service Release 2
April 23 - Service Release 3
May 16 - Service Release 4
July 1 - 5.1 Release
July 10 - Service Release 1
July 23 - Service Release 2
August 5 - Service Release 3
September 03 - 5.1a Release
September 04 - Service Release 1
September 16 - Service Release 2
September 23 - 5.1b Release

And every time we get a new release? Guess what we get to do? Re-index. This isn't a Word Processing software or a graphics manipulation software. This is a library research program. This isn't a $20 app we download on a whim. I've spent a lot of money on Logos; and I have encouraged dozens of other people to do so as well. I'm heavily invested in this platform. I've gone out on a limb to defend Logos, to promote the product. And Logos has just continued to let me (and many others, including my father who was one of their earliest adopters) down.

So, am I grumpy? Am I frustrated?

YES.

I live in New England. I have a number of friends who are software developers. I know how this works. Logos is doing a slipshod job of managing their system. I get it that we are being apologized to for the foibles. I get that human errors happen. I get that Richard Brannan is willing to say mea culpa and promise it won't happen again.

But guys, this has been a problem with Logos for four years. Something is wrong with the way someone is managing this. Do I blame Richard? No. Do I blame the developers? No, not really. Do I blame the management for allowing this to be the way Logos has run for four years? Yes. Yes, I do.

Do I think it will change? Sadly, no. No, I don't. And that frustrates me, because I expected more from the company that saw me through college and seminary and ministry. I expected Logos to operate like the company they should be. They should be producing a world-class experience. Instead, we get this kind of silliness that we had this week - over and over.

I think you have some misconceptions about software. For one, you complained about an alpha version that wasn't fully functional, that is the very definition of an alpha program. It's in the very beginning stages and not even a beta yet, much less a release candidate.

Lee

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/530365#Comment_530365

I have been a Logos user for nearly 20 years. I have used every iteration of this software...

Let's go back to November 2009 when Logos decided to release an alpha version of Logos 4 on Mac users. There was no notification about the state of the software at first (they later added a page justifying the decision). Like a number of other Mac users, I laid out my upgrade fee only to discover that the software was all but unusable.
I think you have some misconceptions about software. For one, you complained about an alpha version that wasn't fully functional, that is the very definition of an alpha program. It's in the very beginning stages and not even a beta yet, much less a release candidate.

EdV seems to be saying that he had bought into the Mac version under the fair assumption that it was a fully functional program.

David Taylor, Jr.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/530368#Comment_530368

I have been a Logos user for nearly 20 years. I have used every iteration of this software...

Let's go back to November 2009 when Logos decided to release an alpha version of Logos 4 on Mac users. There was no notification about the state of the software at first (they later added a page justifying the decision). Like a number of other Mac users, I laid out my upgrade fee only to discover that the software was all but unusable.
I think you have some misconceptions about software. For one, you complained about an alpha version that wasn't fully functional, that is the very definition of an alpha program. It's in the very beginning stages and not even a beta yet, much less a release candidate.

EdV seems to be saying that he had bought into the Mac version under the fair assumption that it was a fully functional program.

I understand that, and my point is that to assume that an alpha is a fully well functioning program is a misunderstanding of what an Alpha software is. On this thread and another thread he has made ridiculous arguments that are quite frankly unfounded.

Erik DiVietro

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/530370#Comment_530370

I understand that, and my point is that to assume that an alpha is a fully well functioning program is a misunderstanding of what an Alpha software is. On this thread and another thread he has made ridiculous arguments that are quite frankly unfounded.

I understand software development quite well, thank you, David. Companies do not SELL their alpha products precisely BECAUSE they are not fully functioning programs. They are not release candidates. So, why did Logos choose to unleash their alpha product upon the public?

Perhaps you did not have to endure the debacle that was Logos 4 Mac, but I did. I went through all 29 alpha cycles and the countless beta cycles. Unfounded? My criticism is quite founded, thank you very much.

David Taylor, Jr.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/530378#Comment_530378

I understand that, and my point is that to assume that an alpha is a fully well functioning program is a misunderstanding of what an Alpha software is. On this thread and another thread he has made ridiculous arguments that are quite frankly unfounded.

I understand software development quite well, thank you, David. Companies do not SELL their alpha products precisely BECAUSE they are not fully functioning programs. They are not release candidates. So, why did Logos choose to unleash their alpha product upon the public?

Perhaps you did not have to endure the debacle that was Logos 4 Mac, but I did. I went through all 29 alpha cycles and the countless beta cycles. Unfounded? My criticism is quite founded, thank you very much.

Because there had been an outcry for them to do so. They did not FORCE anyone to, it was a choice by you and others who opted in for the program.

Erik DiVietro

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/530380#Comment_530380

Because there had been an outcry for them to do so. They did not FORCE anyone to, it was a choice by you and others who opted in for the program.

No, David. We were all told, "Here's our new product!" We weren't forced; but we weren't told the truth either. I had an extensive conversation with a salesperson from Logos before I purchased it, and I was assured this was a fully functional, cross-platform program. Of course, I upgraded. Why wouldn't you?

It was only after I downloaded it and started trying to use it on my Mac that I realized it was missing enormous pieces of what I was being sold. Then, after a couple weeks, we got a message from Bob Pritchett explaining that it was an alpha, but that Logos wanted to release the Windows and Mac versions at the same time.

It was a sad day. The Mac version was easily a year behind the Windows version. What Logos should have done was tell us that the Mac version was coming. It was nowhere near ready for broad use.

Erik DiVietro

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/530383#Comment_530383

More importantly, the process has not ended. Just read through the forums. We are still dealing with all kinds of bizarre issues - from sudden crashes, to unexplained re-indexing, to screens minimizing on launch.

This "incremental" approach to launching software works fine for simple software. Logos is the very definition of not simple. It is a massive project, and it is going to take time to get it right. Any user who has a grasp of the breadth and depth of the software knows that; and any user who cares about quality would prefer that Logos get it right before they drop the product.

I can live with a version of Skitch that doesn't work properly. I don't mind if Facebook doesn't appear on my phone. If Microsoft Word is malfunctioning, I can use any number of alternatives. I make my living with Logos. I rely upon it as I rely on nothing else on my computers, and it has no alternative. Logos has to work.

David Taylor, Jr.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/530383#Comment_530383

Because there had been an outcry for them to do so. They did not FORCE anyone to, it was a choice by you and others who opted in for the program.

No, David. We were all told, "Here's our new product!" We weren't forced; but we weren't told the truth either. I had an extensive conversation with a salesperson from Logos before I purchased it, and I was assured this was a fully functional, cross-platform program. Of course, I upgraded. Why wouldn't you?

It was only after I downloaded it and started trying to use it on my Mac that I realized it was missing enormous pieces of what I was being sold. Then, after a couple weeks, we got a message from Bob Pritchett explaining that it was an alpha, but that Logos wanted to release the Windows and Mac versions at the same time.

It was a sad day. The Mac version was easily a year behind the Windows version. What Logos should have done was tell us that the Mac version was coming. It was nowhere near ready for broad use.

Then can I ask a question? Why don't you take it up with Logos directly rather than tire out the rest of us with complaints we see as a little crazy? Call logos and ask for Bob, they will put you straight through to him.

Erik DiVietro

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/530387#Comment_530387

Then can I ask a question? Why don't you take it up with Logos directly rather than tire out the rest of us with complaints we see as a little crazy? Call logos and ask for Bob, they will put you straight through to him.

You would assume I haven't, wouldn't you?

You're not required to read and respond to what I post on this public forum - now are you?

David Taylor, Jr.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/530385#Comment_530385

More importantly, the process has not ended. Just read through the forums. We are still dealing with all kinds of bizarre issues - from sudden crashes, to unexplained re-indexing, to screens minimizing on launch.

This "incremental" approach to launching software works fine for simple software. Logos is the very definition of not simple. It is a massive project, and it is going to take time to get it right. Any user who has a grasp of the breadth and depth of the software knows that; and any user who cares about quality would prefer that Logos get it right before they drop the product.

I can live with a version of Skitch that doesn't work properly. I don't mind if Facebook doesn't appear on my phone. If Microsoft Word is malfunctioning, I can use any number of alternatives. I make my living with Logos. I rely upon it as I rely on nothing else on my computers, and it has no alternative. Logos has to work.

Logos is not the source of your livelihood, and to think that there are no alternatives to Logos is even more ridiculous than the other claims you have been making. There are websites, paper books, libraries, and many other tools that accomplish what Logos does. If you are so dissatisfied with Logos, why not try something else?

David Taylor, Jr.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/530389#Comment_530389

You would assume I haven't, wouldn't you?

You're not required to read and respond to what I post on this public forum - now are you?

My point was to you, why do this in public? There is no reason for it. You have openly questioned the integrity of the people at Logos on absurd accusations. I don't think that is pleasing to Christ.

DMB

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/530394#Comment_530394

Wow. A couple of days ago Jesus and Karl Marx were up for grabs. Today Jesus is running a software company. What will he do next?

Erik DiVietro

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/530390#Comment_530390

Logos is not the source of your livelihood, and to think that there are no alternatives to Logos is even more ridiculous than the other claims you have been making. There are websites, paper books, libraries, and many other tools that accomplish what Logos does. If you are so dissatisfied with Logos, why not try something else?

What gives you the right or the ability to judge how I use Logos, David? You have decided to oppose any statement I make, and frankly it is getting annoying.

Logos is the single most used program on my computers, and I have thousands of dollars and 20+ years tied up in it. I used it for virtually everything I do. If you think I can just replace the resources I own in Logos, then you must not be using Logos to its fullest capacity. To replace what I own in Logos would cost somewhere in the neighborhood of $15,000. If you want to spot me $15,000, then I'll leave Logos. No? Didn't think so.

As a faithful user and supporter of the Logos system from the beginning, I think I can comment on the poor decisions they have made in recent years.

Don't get me wrong. I love Logos. I always have; but I do not love the decisions they have made over the past four years in releasing the updates to their system. I am not doing anything wrong in presenting honest criticism. Or is that somehow wrong in your eyes? Who gives you the right to decide what I can say or not say? Who gives you the right to decide whether or not I use the software for my livelihood? Who appointed you the sacred keeper of Logos?

David Taylor, Jr.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/530399#Comment_530399

Logos is not the source of your livelihood, and to think that there are no alternatives to Logos is even more ridiculous than the other claims you have been making. There are websites, paper books, libraries, and many other tools that accomplish what Logos does. If you are so dissatisfied with Logos, why not try something else?

What gives you the right or the ability to judge how I use Logos, David? You have decided to oppose any statement I make, and frankly it is getting annoying.

Logos is the single most used program on my computers, and I have thousands of dollars and 20+ years tied up in it. I used it for virtually everything I do. If you think I can just replace the resources I own in Logos, then you must not be using Logos to its fullest capacity. To replace what I own in Logos would cost somewhere in the neighborhood of $15,000. If you want to spot me $15,000, then I'll leave Logos. No? Didn't think so.

As a faithful user and supporter of the Logos system from the beginning, I think I can comment on the poor decisions they have made in recent years.

Don't get me wrong. I love Logos. I always have; but I do not love the decisions they have made over the past four years in releasing the updates to their system. I am not doing anything wrong in presenting honest criticism. Or is that somehow wrong in your eyes? Who gives you the right to decide what I can say or not say? Who gives you the right to decide whether or not I use the software for my livelihood? Who appointed you the sacred keeper of Logos?

I'm not trying to oppose you, but this is ridiculous. I don't have the same issues you are having, granted I am on a PC. But my mom who is on a Mac also isn't having the same issues. My library doesn't re-index all the time, it indexes new resources. You are complaining about things that are insane to be quite frank.

The upgrade for instance, Bob was right it WAS clear on what came with what. If you use the comparison tool, that was available from day one, it told you exactly what dataset came with what.

But to question someone's integrity over these issues? That's ridiculous. I'm not the "sacred keeper" of Logos. All I am saying is that your arguments are unfair and unwarranted and not necessary to bother the forums with, just contact Logos directly. Users have tried to help you but you don't want help, you just want to rant and complain.

Jerry Bush

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/530400#Comment_530400

I have not had near the experience that Erik is having. I am on the PC side, so not quite apples to apples.
I do not believe Logos has released anything too early, with the possible exception of Logos 4. Version 5 was polished and ready.
I welcome the updates and improvements; rather than annoying me, they make me appreciate Logos even more.
My only beef with the company is number of emails I get daily. But they are a company trying to sell things, and it is pretty easy to delete the emails I am not interested in.

Jerry

David Taylor, Jr.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/530401#Comment_530401

I have not had near the experience that Erik is having. I am on the PC side, so not quite apples to apples.

I do not believe Logos has released anything too early, with the possible exception of Logos 4. Version 5 was polished and ready.

I welcome the updates and improvements; rather than annoying me, they make me appreciate Logos even more.

My only beef with the company is number of emails I get daily. But they are a company trying to sell things, and it is pretty easy to delete the emails I am not interested in.

Jerry

Well said Jerry, you can also opt out of the emails you don't want.

Erik DiVietro

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/530400#Comment_530400

But to question someone's integrity over these issues? That's ridiculous. I'm not the "sacred keeper" of Logos. All I am saying is that your arguments are unfair and unwarranted and not necessary to bother the forums with, just contact Logos directly. Users have tried to help you but you don't want help, you just want to rant and complain.

David, please. You jumped into a thread two days after it was posted. I had a perfectly civil conversation with several users over the problems I was encountering. I accepted their help and suggestions. You are the one who decided I was ranting. I was complaining, and I have the right to do that. You, however, do not have the right to announce that I am being "absurd" and "insane". That is an immature approach to the issue.

You don't encounter the problems I do? That's fine. You probably don't own the resources I do or do the work I do. You are trying to judge my use of Logos, which involves multiple languages and thousands of resources with yours. I've tried to explain to you that you don't know what I use Logos for, but you insist on using your experience as the standard and anything that isn't like your experience is "absurd" and "insane."

And then you accuse me of not conducting the conversation in a Christ-like manner? Really...