Smart Selection Resources in the 5.2 Beta
To go along with the new Smart Selection feature added in the 5.2 Beta, we will be republishing 10 resources that have been compiled with Smart Selection data. This update should only download for users with 5.2 Beta 1 installed. We'd like users to specifically test these resources and the Smart Selection feature once they are available.
The resources that are being republished are:
- The Bible Knowledge Commentary
- Easton's Bible Dictionary
- English Standard Version
- Faithlife Study Bible
- Connect the Testaments: A Daily Devotional
- Commentary Critical and Explanatory on the Whole Bible
- The Lexham Bible Dictionary
- The Lexham English Bible
- Morning and Evening
- Merriam-Webster's Collegiate Dictionary (Eleventh Edition)
Smart Selection allows for text selection based on word, clause, sentence, and paragraph groupings. Holding Alt/Option will allow normal selection, and Alt/Option+RightClick will select the word’s logical cluster. There is now a toggle for Smart Selection under Program Settings, so please ensure that it is enabled.
Comments
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Dylan Rondeau said:
Smart Selection allows for text selection based on word, clause, sentence, and paragraph groupings. Holding Alt/Option will allow normal selection, and Alt/Option+RightClick will select the word’s logical cluster. There is now a toggle for Smart Selection under Program Settings, so please ensure that it is enabled.
Had posted that this did not work, but have now realized that no updated resources have been downloaded. Update Now returns not updates available.
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I don't think the update resources are available yet. It's not working for me either. The only downloads I received after installing this beta were databases. (Yes, I did enable smart selection in the settings).
MacBook Pro (2019), ThinkPad E540
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Todd Phillips said:
I don't think the update resources are available yet. It's not working for me either. The only downloads I received after installing this beta were databases. (Yes, I did enable smart selection in the settings).
I was correcting my initial post as you were posting [:$] Over-eager, I guess
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Dylan Rondeau said:
To go along with the new Smart Selection feature added in the 5.2 Beta, we will be republishing 10 resources that have been compiled with Smart Selection data. This update should only download for users with 5.2 Beta 1 installed.
Any estimate for updated resources ?
Keep Smiling [:)]
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Dylan Rondeau said:
Smart Selection allows for text selection based on word, clause, sentence, and paragraph groupings. Holding Alt/Option will allow normal selection, and Alt/Option+RightClick will select the word’s logical cluster. There is now a toggle for Smart Selection under Program Settings, so please ensure that it is enabled.
This is my personal Faithlife account. On 1 March 2022, I started working for Faithlife, and have a new 'official' user account. Posts on this account shouldn't be taken as official Faithlife views!
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Liam, see http://designinginterfaces.com/firstedition/index.php?page=Smart_Selection
Bradley, I must be feeling contrary this morning 'cause I'd rather have something basic like the Reading Plan being useful i.e. able to handle a user defined plan than a Smart Select. I know its not as sexy for marketing or entertaining for programmers but I really wish that the mundane features - Reading Plan, Prayer List, even Prioritization - would get upgrades to meet user needs.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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MJ. Smith said:
Bradley, I must be feeling contrary this morning 'cause I'd rather have something basic like the Reading Plan being useful i.e. able to handle a user defined plan than a Smart Select. I know its not as sexy for marketing or entertaining for programmers but I really wish that the mundane features - Reading Plan, Prayer List, even Prioritization - would get upgrades to meet user needs.
I have to agree with this. Today I really needed the ability to use a Passage List to highlight verses to use in a Visual Filter, but you can't do it. I'd much rather this sort of useful functionality was added.
This is my personal Faithlife account. On 1 March 2022, I started working for Faithlife, and have a new 'official' user account. Posts on this account shouldn't be taken as official Faithlife views!
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Good catch Mark - Passage List to Visual Filter is a big one for me too.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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MJ. Smith said:
Aah I see. Thanks M.J.!
I didn't think it was something as regular as selecting the text with a mouse.
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Dylan / Bradley,
Does this mean that when this feature is released on the stable channel, all of our resources will have to be updated, i.e. there will be another humongous download and reindexing coming our way soon?
Peter
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PL said:
Dylan / Bradley,
Does this mean that when this feature is released on the stable channel, all of our resources will have to be updated, i.e. there will be another humongous download and reindexing coming our way soon?
Peter
This looks like 10 resources will be updated. At least for now. My guess is that other resources may also be updated in batches as they get to them. Whether or not we have a massive resource update like we had recently is doubtful, and I think Logos said so.
Help links: WIKI; Logos 6 FAQ. (Phil. 2:14, NIV)
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Maybe I am thick, but (as usual) when a new Logos feature is rolled out, only a very, very small amount of information is given. What would this actually be used for? That is, when would I want to use it? On what resources does it work? What results does it give?
More than a one-sentence description is needed if you actually expect people to use it.
Fred Greco
Senior Pastor, Christ Church PCA, Katy, TX
Windows 10 64-bit; Logos 7.1 SR-2 (Reformed Platinum)0 -
Fred Greco said:
Maybe I am thick, but (as usual) when a new Logos feature is rolled out, only a very, very small amount of information is given.
It's only beta 1. They'll write the documentation over the course of the beta, and at release I'm sure there'll be a blog article or two.
This is my personal Faithlife account. On 1 March 2022, I started working for Faithlife, and have a new 'official' user account. Posts on this account shouldn't be taken as official Faithlife views!
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Mark Barnes said:Fred Greco said:
Maybe I am thick, but (as usual) when a new Logos feature is rolled out, only a very, very small amount of information is given.
It's only beta 1. They'll write the documentation over the course of the beta, and at release I'm sure there'll be a blog article or two.
Mark,
I understand that, but it would seem to me if that if Logos wants people to beta test a feature, it would make sense to give at least a reasonable description of the function and use of a feature so it can be tested.
Fred Greco
Senior Pastor, Christ Church PCA, Katy, TX
Windows 10 64-bit; Logos 7.1 SR-2 (Reformed Platinum)0 -
Fed
Smart selection is obviously intended for use with extensive highlighting[H]
Dave
===Windows 11 & Android 13
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Fred Greco said:
it would make sense to give at least a reasonable description of the function and use of a feature so it can be tested.
The use of Smart Selection is simply to make it faster and easier to select the text you want to select. It changes the behavior of the normal click+drag selection from only selecting the characters you drag over, to detecting the words/clauses/sentences/paragraphs that you show the intention of selecting.
For example, in the sentence "I am testing the new feature for the next version of Logos." selecting "new" will select "new" (reaching the end of a word will select the beginning of the word as well), selecting "new feature" will select both full words, and dragging into any other words will instantly select those whole words. Continuing to drag into any additional sentences will select those full sentences, then paragraphs, etc.
As for the Alt/Option commands, holding Alt/Option while click+dragging will use the old character-based selection, while Alt/Option & right clicking a word will select that logical "chunk". In our earlier example, Alt+Right click on "new" would select "the new feature". Normal Right click remains as it is currently.
I didn't design the feature, so I only have a functional knowledge of it, but it's something that is difficult to describe but very intuitive once you actually use it. As Mark said we will have better documentation for it later, but I hope this has given you a better idea of what it does. [:)]
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Dylan Rondeau said:
hope this has given you a better idea of what it does.
Makes sense to me, and I like it [Y]
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Dylan Rondeau said:
For example, in the sentence "I am testing the new feature for the next version of Logos." selecting "new" will select "new" (reaching the end of a word will select the beginning of the word as well), selecting "new feature" will select both full words, and dragging into any other words will instantly select those whole words. Continuing to drag into any additional sentences will select those full sentences, then paragraphs, etc.
Using the ESV (Windows 8) I tried this feature out without success. I tried selecting "eternal life" in Luke 10:25. It would only select it on character at a time (not selecting the entire word after already selecting the first word.
Mitch
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
http://www.franklinchurchofchrist.com0 -
Mitch Davis said:Dylan Rondeau said:
For example, in the sentence "I am testing the new feature for the next version of Logos." selecting "new" will select "new" (reaching the end of a word will select the beginning of the word as well), selecting "new feature" will select both full words, and dragging into any other words will instantly select those whole words. Continuing to drag into any additional sentences will select those full sentences, then paragraphs, etc.
Using the ESV (Windows 8) I tried this feature out without success. I tried selecting "eternal life" in Luke 10:25. It would only select it on character at a time (not selecting the entire word after already selecting the first word.
I don't think the resources have been updated yet.
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Dylan,
Thanks for the detailed explanation.
Dylan Rondeau said:For example, in the sentence "I am testing the new feature for the next version of Logos." selecting "new" will select "new" (reaching the end of a word will select the beginning of the word as well), selecting "new feature" will select both full words, and dragging into any other words will instantly select those whole words. Continuing to drag into any additional sentences will select those full sentences, then paragraphs, etc.
This type of smart select has been part of MS Word for years. Logos iOS apps also seem to support this today. I assume this wasn't the reason for the resource updates.
Dylan Rondeau said:As for the Alt/Option commands, holding Alt/Option while click+dragging will use the old character-based selection, while Alt/Option & right clicking a word will select that logical "chunk". In our earlier example, Alt+Right click on "new" would select "the new feature". Normal Right click remains as it is currently.
I assume this was the reason why the resources needed to be updated for the program to know what constitutes a "logical chunk."
- Can you please confirm that above assumptions?
- From the list of 10 republished resources to support this new feature, it appears to cover most if not all resource types - Bible, commentary, dictionary, devotional. Does this mean that when this feature is rolled out to all users, ALL Logos resources will have to be updated, downloaded, and therefore reindexed?
- If the answer to #2 is Yes, then I have a real issue and concern about enduring the trouble of another mass redownload and mass reindex, for such a feature that I'm not even sure I will find useful in my day-to-day use.
How do other users feel about this last point?
Thanks,
Peter
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PL said:
I assume this was the reason why the resources needed to be updated for the program to know what constitutes a "logical chunk."
- Can you please confirm that above assumptions?
- From the list of 10 republished resources to support this new feature, it appears to cover most if not all resource types - Bible, commentary, dictionary, devotional. Does this mean that when this feature is rolled out to all users, ALL Logos resources will have to be updated, downloaded, and therefore reindexed?
- If the answer to #2 is Yes, then I have a real issue and concern about enduring the trouble of another mass redownload and mass reindex, for such a feature that I'm not even sure I will find useful in my day-to-day use.
How do other users feel about this last point?
Thanks,
Peter
Hello Peter, I am the main developer that has worked on smart selection and I can confirm your assumption. The data that indicates logical phrases or "chunks" in the resource text must be calculated and embedded into the resource at this point. As for whether there will come a day where all resources go through this process (causing a lengthy downloading and reindexing step for all users), I am not sure. At this point, we are primarily looking to get feedback on the feature in order to have a better idea of how to move forward with it.
To clarify Dylan's example from earlier, as soon as you select past "feature", the selection will begin selecting not by word, but by phrase. So if your "normal" selection was "testing the new feature for the" (and assuming "the new feature" is a logical phrase in the text), smart selection would extend your selection to be "testing the new feature for the". Whenever you pass a word, phrase, sentence, or paragraph boundary, it begins selecting at that level (e.g. when you pass the end of a sentence, selection will extend to the beginning of the sentence you were previously selecting words in and select the one you just entered).
I hope that helps. Please let us know if there is anything else we can clarify.
Thanks!
Chris
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Chris Culy (Logos) said:
The data that indicates logical phrases or "chunks" in the resource text must be calculated and embedded into the resource at this point. As for whether there will come a day where all resources go through this process (causing a lengthy downloading and reindexing step for all users), I am not sure. At this point, we are primarily looking to get feedback on the feature in order to have a better idea of how to move forward with it.
Well, I haven't tested it yet, but based on your last quoted sentence, my initial feedback would be: don't.
I use different software that employs/uses/allows different forms of selection (or, most annoyingly, sometimes none) and this is bad enough - but having two identical looking resources in two L5 tabs, and the left one selects by characters and the right one by phrase? Come on. It's not the indexing (even though I'm on an old and slow machine), but the consistency of user experience.
One scenario I can imagine: Student users will select something "as always" (i.e. expecting phrase selection like in their newes and most-oft-used resources) and end up with missing half-words in their papers and either have to redo the select/copy/paste/check citation steps or will find that their professor was slightly irritated. We'll have one thread per week discussing the "bug".
If you have to build it into the resource files on your side and thus will have different editions behaving differently (and some old files you can't even change anymore, and if the detection is not 100% automatic it won't apply to Vyrso books, let alone PBs, thus perpetuating inconsistent selection.
So, to not throw away your work: make sure the phrase detector is fully automatic and make it a part of the local indexer run. If we have to index new resources anyway, then the phrase detection should be local and applied to all resources.
My 2c
Have joy in the Lord!
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PL said:
This type of smart select has been part of MS Word for years.
I've learned to hate this feature in MS Word. It prevents easy editing. Since the Logos version is for established text, I suppose that won't be a problem, but I sure hope it isn't the default when highlighting in user-created areas, such as notes.
Eating a steady diet of government cheese, and living in a van down by the river.
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Thanks Chris for the clarification. This is helpful.
I really hope we don't have to update our resources en masse just to support this feature.
Thanks,
Peter
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The two primary use cases for Smart Selection are:
- Mobile devices, where it's hard to do character-precise selection for annotation or copying.
- To improve right-click selection for search, lookup, etc. If you right-click on "Baptist" in "John the Baptist", you probably want the whole noun-phrase. In most "<something> of <something>" phrases you probably want to look up the whole phrase. If you right-click on "generation" in "faithless and twisted generation", we can offer "twisted generation" and "faithless and twisted generation". Adjectives will generally be offered as part of a selection unit with the nouns they modify.
This is still an experiment; once we can all try it for a while we can see if it's a real value-add or not.
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Bob Pritchett said:
The two primary use cases for Smart Selection are:
- Mobile devices, where it's hard to do character-precise selection for annotation or copying.
- To improve right-click selection for search, lookup, etc. If you right-click on "Baptist" in "John the Baptist", you probably want the whole noun-phrase. In most "<something> of <something>" phrases you probably want to look up the whole phrase. If you right-click on "generation" in "faithless and twisted generation", we can offer "twisted generation" and "faithless and twisted generation". Adjectives will generally be offered as part of a selection unit with the nouns they modify.
This is still an experiment; once we can all try it for a while we can see if it's a real value-add or not.
Hi Bob,
First, I'm glad you and Logos are thinking about mobile device users and proactively proposing a new feature targeted toward mobile users.
I use highlighting on my Logos apps on iPad everyday. I'm actually perfectly happy with how text selection works. It already is aware of word boundaries and intelligently respects that and guides the user during text selection.
I obviously haven't tried the proposed new feature yet, but I would imagine it might be quite annoying if I just wanted to select exactly 5 words, and the software "smartly" insists that I should be selecting 6 words instead in order to make up a complete "chunk." That reminds me of some of the user experience when Microsoft used to roll out some new "smart" feature and we would have to find a way to turn it off or keep fighting its "smartness." (Sorry I know many on the Logos team came from Microsoft; sometimes your design choices and technology choices remind me of that fact.)
To be honest, if Logos would like to improve the experience for mobile users, I'd much rather you work on streamlining the highlighting process -- reduce the number of finger taps currently needed to highlight something. Some of us highlight A LOT while reading. The current extra taps needed to highlight is very inefficient and slow (compared with the no-tap highlighting in the Kindle iOS app -- where you just drag your finger over text, just like a real-world highlighter). It's even worse on iPad than on the iPhone because the buttons that need to be tapped appear in unpredictable locations and they jump around over the screen, depending on the location and amount of text being highlighted.
If you could make that highlighting process match what the Kindle app does, it would be a huge improvement and timesaver. One more thing -- can you please make the highlight show up instantly? The one-second delay before the highlight shows up in the text is just very unnatural and adds to the clunky feel of the current highlighting feature implementation.
Coming back to the "smart selection" feature being explored:
- You can't do Alt/Option drag or Alt/Option right-click on mobile devices anyway, so the "chunk selection" feature won't benefit mobile users after all.
- Would the extra tagging needed to enable this feature increase the resource's file size in any significant way?
Thanks,
Peter
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OK, now I've tried this out, and based on how I do my highlighting it's a definite 'Off'. Perhaps if it was possible to have it on for words and off for anything longer, I might use it.
MJ. Smith said:Bradley, I must be feeling contrary this morning 'cause I'd rather have something basic like the Reading Plan being useful i.e. able to handle a user defined plan than a Smart Select. I know its not as sexy for marketing or entertaining for programmers but I really wish that the mundane features - Reading Plan, Prayer List, even Prioritization - would get upgrades to meet user needs.
[Y][Y][Y][Y][Y][Y][Y][Y][Y][Y] (Except my votes would go to Notes, Notes, Notes, and Notes. Plus bug fixes. And Lectionaries. (I don't use Reading Plans or Prayer Lists.))
I just don't get it: why do you spend so much time coding things that, to the best of my knowledge, not a single person has asked for, while ignoring the 1,448 votes for Rework notes function - in one or multiple phases?
I also agree with Mick on consistency.
Mac Pro (late 2013) OS 12.6.2
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