Is there any scripture passage that can prove that God allows for us to defend ourselves when we are
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It's also hard to love them when you are dead.
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"The Unbelievable Work...believe it or not." Little children...Biblical prophecy is not Christianity's friend.
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Milkman said:
it's too bad so many are timid to reply to any further posts regarding defending their family.
Perhaps many recognize that it is a very thorny issue which is very dependent on the details of the situation - as are most lesser of two evils choices. Alternatively, many may recognize that the thread slid from appropriate to inappropriate and prefer not to be involved. Or many may have so little experience with the need to defend their family in this manner (or even knowing others who have actually confronted the situation) that they have never felt the need to sort through this particular set of ethical issues. Or they may still be sorting through the probabilities - family on self vs. truly dangerous intruder. Or they may just not care enough about the thread to consider it worth posting.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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David Paul said:
It's also hard to love them when you are dead.
Having no experience being dead, I don't know this to be true. It may be much easier.[:P]
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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I'm sorry to hear that Canada is so benighted as to make gun ownership so very difficult. That is generally the first step toward totalitarianism. Britain likewise has restrictive gun laws and they play games with the crime statistics in order to support that position. I have no desire to see that happen in the United States.Milford Charles Murray said:
I think we'd be better off if we could get this thread back to its original purpose! Peace to all! The only reason I'm writing is to point out that Milkman in his post neglected to mention that it's almost impossible for anyone to purchase or to own a legal handgun in Canada. It just doesn't happen ........... maybe the very odd exemption if one were to belong to a gun club; however, the transportation of such firearm would be extremely difficult and under heavy control ... I'm sorry I'm sticking my nose into this thread; however, the reputation of my country in this matter is very important to me, eh? *smile*Milkman said:super tramp. sorry to hear about your wife - will her/your bank see to it that she will not lose her $? hopefully there is insurance to cover the loss. in the States you can carry a concealed weapon or open - correct? in Canada there are no such laws.
i'd love to hear what she feels is justice. probably not taking out the .45 but maybe something with a bat? anyway, it's too bad so many are timid to reply to any further posts regarding defending their family.
mm.
I'm not quite sure what he means when he says "... in Canada there are no such laws.... " Milkman, perhaps you might clarify if you so desire!
Blessings to all!
george
gfsomselיְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן
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Ha, ha.MJ. Smith said:David Paul said:It's also hard to love them when you are dead.
Having no experience being dead, I don't know this to be true. It may be much easier.
george
gfsomselיְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן
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Mark Johnson said:
It is hard to claim that you "love your enemy" when you are shooting at that person.
I don't believe you are understanding Matthew 5:43-44 correctly. Remember, Jesus also said to love your neighbor. Now let's say my enemy attacks my neighbor and his family. Do I help my neighbor defend himself? [:O]
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MJ. Smith said:David Paul said:
It's also hard to love them when you are dead.
Having no experience being dead, I don't know this to be true. It may be much easier.
I suppose being dead is easy. I understand doing anything at all while dead to be pretty much impossible. Psa. 115:17, Psa. 31:17, Psa. 6:5, Eccl. 9:10, Psa. 30:9, Psa. 88:10, 11, 12
In fact, I think that's why they call it dead. [:O]
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"The Unbelievable Work...believe it or not." Little children...Biblical prophecy is not Christianity's friend.
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Milford, I think MM was saying Canada doesn't have carry laws like many states do here. Some states like here allow carry without a permit. So while picking up trash around the sanctuary, a guy walks his dog with his Glock on his hip. I told him the dog didn't seem that dangerous. Crime's out of control here, what with 3 burgleries this year plus a murder a few years back.
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
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David Paul said:
. Psa. 115:17, Psa. 31:17, Psa. 6:5, Eccl. 9:10, Psa. 30:9, Psa. 88:10, 11, 12
Or Luke 16:19-31, 1 Samuel 28:3-25
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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Tes said:
Hi Josh, I think there is misunderstanding. What I want to say is concerning ministry, if a pastor or any minster of God is being attacked by members of his congregation or by any one out of selfish motive. If he or she is acting according to the Word of God, my understanding is he or she doesn't have to respond physically since the war is spiritual. The defense should be for the sake of the truth of God not for his or her reputation.
Well said, Tes.
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OT, but I wonder why MJ's references above don't respond to mouseover/click-on, but David's do (I keep javascript off). I'd assume the code for the quote is different than the code for the typed in text.
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
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[Y]Michael Childs said:As to your question about a Scripture passage, I think the fact that Jesus told his disciples to arm themselves on the night he was betrayed might imply the right to self-defense. "Prove" would be too strong a word.. (Luke 22:36-38) I think Jesus was concerned about the Disciples' safety on that dangerous night, and he wanted them to be able to protect themselves. But he said two swords were enough. In other words, don't overdo it. He wanted them just to be able to defend themselves. At least that is how I understand it.
God sometimes leads us to do things that conflict with common sense, but that is the exception rather than the rule. In an issue like this, I would just use common sense. I would also respect those who disagree with me.
Maybe a better word would be "imply," and I do agree with the rest of your statement...
@all - I thought I'll be having a headache on this topic, but right now... with all your response... I think I'm having fun! [:D]
specially with the "Love your enemy, Love your neighbor part!"0 -
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Daniel Yoder said:
Can someone tell me how this discussion relates to Logos?
No, because the original post was not related to Logos. [:O]
I counted four posts that referred to Logos resources. Everything else was either Biblical references or idle banter.
Good point, Daniel.
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On the surface Pinoy's question is not related to Logos (a sectarian book re-seller that has a small religious section).
But it illustrates how a straight search functionality along with extensive resources doesn't quite deliver.
I still think a multi-variant approach to the BSL would solve much of the problem (vs a single one that appear to track one segment of Christian theology).
Woops ... did I imply Logos does theology?? Sorry!
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
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Denise said:
Actually I like Pinoy's question and attitude. The question illustrates the problem relative to a powerful engine and library, that doesn't quite get you there. And his attitude is one I appreciate very much.
Oh, yes. I appreciate Pinoy's attitude through this whole thread. Really, I find everyone's posts helpful and/or interesting. This subject is a very passionate issue to all and it could have gone very badly.
MJ's contribution was especially helpful to me personally.
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Another question of exploration -- which can be explored through many Logos resources
-- is what, based on what we see in the Gospels, would Jesus do if one of the disciples was attacked right in front of Him. We know that He was grieved that John the Baptist was killed but He did not take any action about it. There were also many people being killed in Israel during His time and we never hear of any rescue from physical violence.
But the imitation of Christ is challenging on so many levels here (not just because of the heights of His excellencies). As God, He witnesses slaughters and injustice every day and does have power to stop it. This includes many Christian martyrs. Yet He does not intervene in many cases. At this point though, we are moving into much larger topics that involves His sovereignty and how He deals with suffering and injustice in this world. I think it shows how difficult it is for us to ask "what would Jesus do?" here.
Finally, I always found it a particular challenge to work with the examples of the Lord Jesus and the apostles in some respects because we never hear of concerns over the safety or protection of their children, if any. It is one thing to put your head on the block for the Kingdom. It is another to watch and do nothing as your child's head is put on the block right in front of you.0 -
Francis said:
I always found it a particular challenge to work with the examples of the Lord Jesus and the apostles in some respects because we never hear of concerns over the safety or protection of their children, if any. It is one thing to put your head on the block for the Kingdom. It is another to watch and do nothing as your child's head is put on the block right in front of you.
Actually, we do have an example...The Father and Yeishuu`a...and not only did the Father not do anything, He turned His back on Him (this is prophetic--saying it isn't true won't help), and Isa. 53:10 (just a couple of verses prior to the "numbered with the transgressors verse I mentioned from Isa. 53:12) says YHWH was pleased & delighted to crush Him.
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"The Unbelievable Work...believe it or not." Little children...Biblical prophecy is not Christianity's friend.
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Should we really expect that God will cast lightning-bolts at the perpetrators of injustice? Even when we are dealing with the incarnate one?Francis said:Another question of exploration -- which can be explored through many Logos resources
-- is what, based on what we see in the Gospels, would Jesus do if one of the disciples was attacked right in front of Him. We know that He was grieved that John the Baptist was killed but He did not take any action about it. There were also many people being killed in Israel during His time and we never hear of any rescue from physical violence.
But the imitation of Christ is challenging on so many levels here (not just because of the heights of His excellencies). As God, He witnesses slaughters and injustice every day and does have power to stop it. This includes many Christian martyrs. Yet He does not intervene in many cases. At this point though, we are moving into much larger topics that involves His sovereignty and how He deals with suffering and injustice in this world. I think it shows how difficult it is for us to ask "what would Jesus do?" here.
Finally, I always found it a particular challenge to work with the examples of the Lord Jesus and the apostles in some respects because we never hear of concerns over the safety or protection of their children, if any. It is one thing to put your head on the block for the Kingdom. It is another to watch and do nothing as your child's head is put on the block right in front of you.
God moves in a mysterious way
His wonders to perform;
He plants his footsteps in the sea
And rides upon the storm.
Too many seek miracles when God does not appear to operate in that fashion. Perhaps it is OUR JOB to deliver the lightning-bolts.george
gfsomselיְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן
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Yamm certainly felt Baal's heavy feet. But Thor knew his thunderbolts.
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
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Francis said:
He was grieved that John the Baptist was killed but He did not take any action about it.
But he did resort to violence to clear the temple of money changers. [li] "Go ye and do likewise."
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Indeed, it is interesting to consider what applicability there may be in this account. However, in all fairness, it was neither an act of self-defense of the kind involved in the debates about pacifism, nor was physical harm inflicted on people (as far as we know). But in any case, there is still the matter of whether it is fair application to do all that the Lord did. At the same time, I would agree in stating that this incident (and other scriptures) challenge the mild-mannered notion that can sometimes issue of some pacifist idealizations (exaggerations?) of Jesus and of God. Among these -- very relevant for us Canadians -- is the "rudeness" of Jesus, who does not hesitate to ruin the mood of dinners to which He is invited, meeting a positive statement (blessed are those who will participate in the heavenly banquet) with a cold shower statement that amounted to: none of you will be there!Super.Tramp said:But he did resort to violence to clear the temple of money changers
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Francis said:
However, in all fairness, it was neither an act of self-defense of the kind involved in the debates about pacifism, nor was physical harm inflicted on people (as far as we know).
Fair enough. But he did make a whip. It could have been to hit the money with [;)].
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Francis said:
Indeed, it is interesting to consider what applicability there may be in this account. However, in all fairness, it was neither an act of self-defense of the kind involved in the debates about pacifism, nor was physical harm inflicted on people (as far as we know). But in any case, there is still the matter of whether it is fair application to do all that the Lord did. At the same time, I would agree in stating that this incident (and other scriptures) challenge the mild-mannered notion that can sometimes issue of some pacifist idealizations (exaggerations?) of Jesus and of God. Among these -- very relevant for us Canadians -- is the "rudeness" of Jesus, who does not hesitate to ruin the mood of dinners to which He is invited, meeting a positive statement (blessed are those who will participate in the heavenly banquet) with a cold shower statement that amounted to: none of you will be there!Super.Tramp said:But he did resort to violence to clear the temple of money changers
Peace, Francis! *smile* Very good indeed! Thank you!
Philippians 4: 4 Rejoice in the Lord always; again I will say, Rejoice. 5 Let your reasonableness be known to everyone. The Lord is at hand..........
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MJ. Smith said:David Paul said:
. Psa. 115:17, Psa. 31:17, Psa. 6:5, Eccl. 9:10, Psa. 30:9, Psa. 88:10, 11, 12
Funny, I almost made a couple of preemptive comments about these exact two passages. Regarding 1 Sam. 28:15, it should be noticed that Samuel said "why have you brought me up", not why have you brought me down. He was dead up to that point, still in the ground. The witch didn't bring him up, YHWH did, for the purpose of providing prophetic narrative. Notice also Saul's response in 1 Sam. 28:20...when told he would be with Samuel the following day, his didn't jump and click his heels with joy--he was terrified. It didn't mean he would be strumming a harp at Samuel's sainted side. It meant he also would be dead and awaiting a judgment to come (not a positive one, he seems quite certain), not alive flitting around in heaven. Yet he would still be with Saul--i.e. dead in Sh''ohl.
Regarding Lk. 16, it is an allegory, plain and simple. The father of the faithful never uttered a peep--he was just a figurative stand-in.
Using these two examples to support after death consciousness is much like saying a dude with a stick can wander around making dry highways through seabeds and a guy who is in a hurry can walk on water. They aren't descriptive of the state of normal existence. Anything can be in YHWH's economy, but only some things naturally are. After-death consciousness isn't one of them, until the dead are wakened. In that vein, if you had stood over the spot of Abel's murder, you wouldn't have heard tiny little screams from the blood-soaked ground, and their aren't really thousands of people crammed up under the alter. Those descriptions of figurative.
Won't be on for a couple of days. Going to see my kids! [Y]
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"The Unbelievable Work...believe it or not." Little children...Biblical prophecy is not Christianity's friend.
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Have a safe trip, David. When you return, you can discuss Mark's difficult geography. Reading the very excellent Sacred Bridge, the author says 'prophesy'! Well, of course. He's confirming my suspicions.
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
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Denise said:
On the surface Pinoy's question is not related to Logos (a sectarian book re-seller that has a small religious section).
But it illustrates how a straight search functionality along with extensive resources doesn't quite deliver.
I still think a multi-variant approach to the BSL would solve much of the problem (vs a single one that appear to track one segment of Christian theology).
Woops ... did I imply Logos does theology?? Sorry!
[Y]
Sorry guys if the thread is not really directly related to Logos... Will try to do better the next time... [:)]0 -
Dear Brother! Peace to you! You did absolutely fine THIS TIME! It was a perfectly legitimate post that you posted, methinks! You were asking us to use our Logos Bible Software information to give you a "knowledge boost" in a certain area, eh???Pinoy Preacher said:Denise said:On the surface Pinoy's question is not related to Logos (a sectarian book re-seller that has a small religious section).
But it illustrates how a straight search functionality along with extensive resources doesn't quite deliver.
I still think a multi-variant approach to the BSL would solve much of the problem (vs a single one that appear to track one segment of Christian theology).
Woops ... did I imply Logos does theology?? Sorry!
Sorry guys if the thread is not really directly related to Logos... Will try to do better the next time...
*smile* No problem! Actually a challenge for your fellow Logos Bible Software Users to use their creative minds .....
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This is somehow an issue for or against Christian Pacifism. I do not want to start an argument. Just the verses that might prove or disapprove the statement on the title of this post. No need for explanations...Philippians 4: 4 Rejoice in the Lord always; again I will say, Rejoice. 5 Let your reasonableness be known to everyone. The Lord is at hand..........
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Pinoy Preacher said:
Sorry guys if the thread is not really directly related to Logos... Will try to do better the next time...
No problem at all. I love the whole thread. Really anything that spawns more Bible study is fine with me and in the spirit of the forums. If you want to stay technically within the good graces of the forum "*Blue Meanies" then add this statement to your post;
"Can anyone use Logos to show me....."
Then whatever onerous posts that follow will be entirely the fault of their authors. [:D]
Your topic of inquiry is very important and should cause us pause to consider how best to display the character of Christ in these troubling days.
*Note: I include myself in the Blue Meanie army
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