create default Verbum collections in L5

Anthony H

I have these three collections available while in Verbum. But they are not available when I'm in L5.

Anyone know the collection "rule(s)" to use to match them so I have each of them in L5?

yes, I'm that lazy today Stick out tongue Surprise ... seriously though if anyone has done this I would love the input.

Find more posts tagged with

Comments

Bradley Grainger (Logos)

Anyone know the collection "rule(s)" to use to match them so I have each of them in L5?

It's not currently possible to write a rule that functions the same way as the built-in Verbum collections. (You would have to try to create a rule that exactly matched the same resources by their title or some other attribute, or just build a static collection using the "Plus these resources" section. Either way, your custom collection could become out-of-date if the Verbum system collections were updated.

To access those collections, use Verbum.

Deacon Steve

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/548394#Comment_548394

Is this something different than what you see when "set verbum to yes" in L5?

Anthony H

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/548394#Comment_548394

It's not currently possible to write a rule that functions the same way as the built-in Verbum collections. (You would have to try to create a rule that exactly matched the same resources by their title or some other attribute, or just build a static collection using the "Plus these resources" section. Either way, your custom collection could become out-of-date if the Verbum system collections were updated.

I appreciate the information.

To access those collections, use Verbum.

Your response created in me more "why" questions...

...it would seem to me that if I own both products and both products essentially access the same purchased library but with some discrete functionality differences, why should I be encumbered by a Verbum "on/off" switch or a second installation or a marketing/branding policy.

Rhetorical...don't answer that. I understand that Logos has every right to develop as my "strains" of Logos for any denomination they wish. You would only be meeting the demands of your customers who desire the separation. But some of us customers are interdenominational or non-denomination.

Perhaps you could offer an all inclusive Logos called "Logos Omegas" or maybe "Logos Nonsectarian" or "Logos Plenus" or "Logos Omnis Coetus".[:P]

I joke a little here but I'm not sure how dividing up a Christian market share into smaller segments is actually going to create that much more profits?

If this market is represented by a circle, all your doing is marketing to a specific pie wedge for better saturation of that wedge. You haven't increased the circle size. Has marketing determined it will allow you to tap the Christian market with that much greater depth? I suppose so or Logos wouldn't bother.

All I wanted was a way to not have to switch back and forth when I am working on some comparative studies but still be able to have the consistency of Verbum results while in Logos5. [Y]

Well, it is what it is and my ignorance of the facts is coming to the surface. I love using Logos in my studies, devotional time, sermon preparation, etc., so it's not a deal breaker for me. Thanks for letting me rant. [:D] I'm off to create a static collection.

MJ. Smith

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/548399#Comment_548399

Is this something different than what you see when "set verbum to yes" in L5?

No, but the issue is that the metadata used to create the collections is not currently visible to the user. Andrew indicated that this will likely change in the near future.

Anthony H

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/548422#Comment_548422

No, but the issue is that the metadata used to create the collections is not currently visible to the user. Andrew indicated that this will likely change in the near future.

[Y][Y]

MJ. Smith

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/548420#Comment_548420

...it would seem to me that if I own both products and both products essentially access the same purchased library but with some discrete functionality differences, why should I be encumbered by a Verbum "on/off" switch or a second installation or a marketing/branding policy.

Do you remember the uproar in the forums when program settings had a switch to allow choice of canon? or the complaints that the home page by default showed the Catholic lectionary? I think those are typical incidents that illustrates why Verbum is separated from Logos. I may think it is a bit silly but I can understand the logic behind the business decision.

Mark Barnes

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/548394#Comment_548394

If you want to create static collections, there's a list of the relevant resources here:

http://community.logos.com/forums/p/78251/548160.aspx#548160

It's not currently possible to write a rule that functions the same way as the built-in Verbum collections.

Can you treat this as another vote for my 'traits' request [;)]?

Anthony H

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/548428#Comment_548428

...it would seem to me that if I own both products and both products essentially access the same purchased library but with some discrete functionality differences, why should I be encumbered by a Verbum "on/off" switch or a second installation or a marketing/branding policy.

Do you remember the uproar in the forums when program settings had a switch to allow choice of canon? or the complaints that the home page by default showed the Catholic lectionary? I think those are typical incidents that illustrates why Verbum is separated from Logos. I may think it is a bit silly but I can understand the logic behind the business decision.

I had actually forgot about those incidents. Yes, I see the need to appease. But couldn't a lot of those issues be server-side by account. I think I saw someone mention this before, that our accounts carry quite a bit of detail so that the home screen default population would be based on your initial purchase. Perhaps then we as individuals who own both packages could go into the program settings and turn on "Verbum-Logos" cohabitate option [:P]...just a thought, a bit of a convoluted solution I guess.

Anthony H

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/548431#Comment_548431

If you want to create static collections, there's a list of the relevant resources here:

http://community.logos.com/forums/p/78251/548160.aspx#548160

It's not currently possible to write a rule that functions the same way as the built-in Verbum collections.

Can you treat this as another vote for my 'traits' request ?

Thanks Mark.

Absolutely!!!! Love It! [Y][Y][Y]

Mark Barnes

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/548428#Comment_548428

I may think it is a bit silly but I can understand the logic behind the business decision.

I don't think it's silly at all. One of the issues about opening it up for everyone is that the people will say, "What about default Lutheran/Pentecostal/SDA/Reformed/Baptist/whatever collections?", and before you know it we'll all be clamouring to delete/hide the three dozen default collections that are cluttering our collections menu.

Do you remember the uproar in the forums when program settings had a switch to allow choice of canon?

Most of the uproar was caused by the fact that it was put in by mistake, in a beta 1, and worded very badly. It was someone who now uses Verbum that was the most upset by it!

or the complaints that the home page by default showed the Catholic lectionary?

I don't recall that.

Personally, I'm very happy for a marketing split, but I'd prefer one distribution, and during installation you were asked a simple question which edition you wanted (defaulting to Logos for those who've downloaded Logos.exe, and to Verbum for those you've downloaded verbum.exe). A very simple sentence help line could be added for those that clicked 'Explain'. This could even be relegated to 'Advanced Settings'.

Within the application, I think it's necessary to have two settings - one for Canon, and one for Catholic/Protestant prioritisation. I can imagine there are a large number of academic and other users who'd want to study beyond a 66-book canon, without necessarily wanting Catholic dogma being highly prioritised — but I don't think there would be much advantage in having even more finely grained controls.

tom

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/548394#Comment_548394

To access those collections, use Verbum.

Hi Bradley,

For me, this doesn't make sense. Like I have said it before in my other posts, if a person has the resources, then the person should have the tools (or in this case the collection).

If the count from the collection SQL is >0, then display the collection. if the count = 0, then don't display it.

A user should not have to run a command prompt to see his or her collections IMHO.

tom

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/548441#Comment_548441

Personally, I'm very happy for a marketing split, but I'd prefer one distribution, and during installation you were asked a simple question which edition you wanted (defaulting to Logos for those who've downloaded Logos.exe, and to Verbum for those you've downloaded verbum.exe). A very simple sentence help line could be added for those that clicked 'Explain'. This could even be relegated to 'Advanced Settings'.

Within the application, I think it's necessary to have two settings - one for Canon, and one for Catholic/Protestant prioritisation. I can imagine there are a large number of academic and other users who'd want to study beyond a 66-book canon, without necessarily wanting Catholic dogma being highly prioritised — but I don't think there would be much advantage in having even more finely grained controls.

[Y]

I agree, I would be one of them.

MJ. Smith

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/548441#Comment_548441

I don't recall that.

http://community.logos.com/forums/t/3605.aspx (a polite one mostly)

http://community.logos.com/forums/t/5338.aspx (more typical)

MJ. Smith

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/548441#Comment_548441

One of the issues about opening it up for everyone is that the people will say, "What about default Lutheran/Pentecostal/SDA/Reformed/Baptist/whatever collections?", and before you know it we'll all be clamouring to delete/hide the three dozen default collections that are cluttering our collections menu.

I, on the other hand, think that Orthodox, Anglican and Lutheran (without finer distinctions) ought to have similar features available. When you get into Seventh-day Adventist or Baptist, I don't have the knowledge to have an informed opinion.

one for Canon, and one for Catholic/Protestant prioritisation.

I don't believe that the primary split it Catholic/Protestant but rather liturgical/nonliturgical ... or something similar that recognizes that a broader canon is used and early ecumenical councils respected. Especially since I've just been given a Lutheran daily lectionary that includes deuterocanonical books (as does the Anglican).

Bradley Grainger (Logos)

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/548420#Comment_548420

All I wanted was a way to not have to switch back and forth when I am working on some comparative studies but still be able to have the consistency of Verbum results while in Logos5.

Just out of interest... why? I'm trying to understand the need to switch back to Logos so we can potentially address it in the UI.

Keep Smiling 4 Jesus :)

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/548394#Comment_548394

It's not currently possible to write a rule that functions the same way as the built-in Verbum collections.

Superset collection rules can include more similar resources. Searching all text for the, et finds English, French, and Latin resources.

Catechism:

Subject:Catholic AND Subject:Catechism

that has 17 Catholic Catechism resources in my library compared to the 2 in the Verbum collection. An alternative rule is:

Subject:Catechism,Title:Catechism

that includes more Catechism resources.

Church Fathers:

(Type:Ancient AND Subject:(Justin,Trypho)) OR Author:(Augustine,Bede,Chrysostom,Cyril,"Dionysius the Areopagite",Ephrem,Eusebius,"Gregory the Great",Pachomius) OR Subject:("Church History--primitive","History--Early Church") OR Title:(Chrysostom,Eusebius,Fathers,Macarius,"Saint Benedict") -Title:"Catholic Edition"

that excludes Catholic Edition of Early Church Father resources since Protestant edition has more footnotes. Verbum Church Fathers collection has 128 resources while this rule has 214 resources in my library. Removing -Title:"Catholic Edition" from rule adds 37 resources. Prefix addition to rule is: (Title:Early AND Title:(Christ,Church)) OR

Church Documents:

Subject:("Catholic Church","Catholic theological seminaries","Catholic universities and colleges","Canon law","Joseph,Saint--Theology","Papal documents","Popes--Election","Roman Catholicism--Creeds") OR Title:"Seven Ecumenical Councils" OR Author:"Benedict XVI"

Verbum Church Documents collection has 104 resources while this rule has 237 resources in my library.

Keep Smiling [:)]

MJ. Smith

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/548532#Comment_548532

Church Documents:

Subject:("Catholic Church","Catholic theological seminaries","Catholic universities and colleges","Canon law","Joseph,Saint--Theology","Papal documents","Popes--Election","Roman Catholicism--Creeds") OR Title:"Seven Ecumenical Councils" OR Author:"Benedict XVI"

Verbum Church Documents collection has 104 resources while this rule has 237 resources in my library.

There seems to be a bit of difference in what is meant by "church document" ... a church document is something specifically promulgated by the Church through specific processes - like the position papers of the LCMS or the Southern Baptist Conference. Various types of documents have different levels of authority associated with them ... letters from your local bishop don't have the same authority as the documents from an ecumenical council.

Catechism:

Subject:Catholic AND Subject:Catechism

that has 17 Catholic Catechism resources in my library compared to the 2 in the Verbum collection. An alternative rule is:

Subject:Catechism,Title:Catechism

that includes more Catechism resources.

Here the question is more complex ... Verbum includes the minimal set of current, officially promulgated catechisms (not sure why YouCat is omitted other than it serves a different purpose than the CCC.) Two other sets of catechisms of interest are (1) all officially promulgated catechism (regional, historical and by rite) and (2) all catholic catechisms, official or not.

Keep Smiling 4 Jesus :)

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/548548#Comment_548548

Church Documents:

Subject:("Catholic Church","Catholic theological seminaries","Catholic universities and colleges","Canon law","Joseph,Saint--Theology","Papal documents","Popes--Election","Roman Catholicism--Creeds") OR Title:"Seven Ecumenical Councils" OR Author:"Benedict XVI"

Verbum Church Documents collection has 104 resources while this rule has 237 resources in my library.

There seems to be a bit of difference in what is meant by "church document" ... a church document is something specifically promulgated by the Church through specific processes - like the position papers of the LCMS or the Southern Baptist Conference. Various types of documents have different levels of authority associated with them ... letters from your local bishop don't have the same authority as the documents from an ecumenical council.

Concur "Church Document" collection has a range of authority. Collection rule was built by primarily picking common subjects for Verbum "Church Document" resources, which have a notable range of metadata tagging. Noted "Verbum Domini" has two subjects: "Bible--Study and teaching." and "Word of God." so used Author:"Benedict XVI" in collection rule.

By the way, wikipedia has a Southern Baptist Convention page => https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Southern_Baptist_Convention that opines:

The general theological perspective of the churches of the Southern Baptist Convention is represented in the Baptist Faith and Message (BF&M).^[11] The BF&M was first drafted in 1925. It was revised significantly in 1963 and again in 2000, with the latter revision being the subject of much controversy. The BF&M is not considered to be a creed, such as the Nicene Creed. Members are not required to adhere to it. Churches belonging to the SBC are not required to use it as their statement of faith or doctrine, though many do in lieu of creating their own statement. Despite the fact that the BF&M is not a creed, faculty in SBC-owned seminaries and missionaries who apply to serve through the various SBC missionary agencies must affirm that their practices, doctrine, and preaching are consistent with the BF&M.

Keep Smiling [:)]

MJ. Smith

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/548550#Comment_548550

Collection rule was built by primarily picking common subjects for Verbum "Church Document" resources, which have a notable range of metadata tagging. Noted "Verbum Domini" has two subjects: "Bible--Study and teaching." and "Word of God." so used Author:"Benedict XVI" in collection rule.

You missed the point of my statements - many things wirtten by Ratzinger/Benedict XVI simply are NOT church documents. They are his work as a private theologian and are no more church documents than the works of Karl Rahner, John Henry Newman, Scott Hahn or St. John of the Cross - all picked up by your rule. Judging by your counts, your rule has more false positives than true positives and could be very misleading as to the church's position.

By the way, wikipedia has a Southern Baptist Convention page => https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Southern_Baptist_Convention that opines:

I'm not quite sure what your point is here as it appears that the SBC is mainstream in their use of position statements. My point was there is a specific process that makes them position papers and, hence, church documents.

Keep Smiling 4 Jesus :)

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/548551#Comment_548551

You missed the point of my statements - many things wirtten by Ratzinger/Benedict XVI simply are NOT church documents. They are his work as a private theologian and are no more church documents than the works of Karl Rahner, John Henry Newman, Scott Hahn or St. John of the Cross - all picked up by your rule. Judging by your counts, your rule has more false positives than true positives and could be very misleading as to the church's position.

Learned subject tagging "Catholic Church--Doctrines." has a misleading mixture of resources. This rule is significantly closer to Verbum Church Documents:

Author:("Benedict XVI","John Paul II") OR Subject:("Canon Law","Catholic Church--Catechisms","Catholic Church--Discipline.","Encyclicals, Papal","Popes--Infallibility","Roman Catholicism--Creeds") OR Title:("Seven Ecumenical Councils","Sources of Catholic Dogma","Vatican II Documents") -Subject:(1800,"Christianity--20th",Eastern,Ecclesia,Human,Meditation,Secular,Spiritual,Tradition) -Author:Wesley

Keep Smiling [:)]

Mark Barnes

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/548460#Comment_548460

http://community.logos.com/forums/t/3605.aspx (a polite one mostly)

http://community.logos.com/forums/t/5338.aspx (more typical)

You've got a good memory, recalling back to 2009! It's worth noting that problem wouldn't happen today, because the default prioritisation in non-Verbum installations has changed, and we have more control over the ribbon/sidebar.

MJ. Smith

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/548556#Comment_548556

The title "Sources of Catholic Dogma" is not a church document ... and many people say nasty things about the English translation being misleading. I'd be more inclined to rely on series as much as possible but this formulation seems to work very well.

Mark Barnes

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/548510#Comment_548510

All I wanted was a way to not have to switch back and forth when I am working on some comparative studies but still be able to have the consistency of Verbum results while in Logos5.

Just out of interest... why? I'm trying to understand the need to switch back to Logos so we can potentially address it in the UI.

For me, I want to be able to have deutero-canonical data when I'm doing academic study (e.g. in Bible Facts), but don't want Catholic prioritisation, default collections and guides — so I have to keep switching between Verbum/Logos mode. Two preferences, one for the deutero-canonicals on/off and one for Catholic/Protestant set-up would be ideal - that way I could turn one on and the other off.

It's also important that people who own the Saints/Catholic Topic Index resources can access the relevant Guide sections, even when in non-Verbum mode. The section shouldn't be on by default in non-Verbum mode (IMO), but should be accessible. I think Louis has said that's already been fixed internally.

MJ. Smith

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/548559#Comment_548559

You've got a good memory, recalling back to 2009!

At least I didn't give links to the threads on the topic that were frozen [;)]

we have more control over the ribbon/sidebar.

Yup, back in the day I actually had to uncheck a box ... after walking uphill both to and from my computer.[:P]

tom

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/548562#Comment_548562

For me, I want to be able to have deutero-canonical data when I'm doing academic study (e.g. in Bible Facts), but don't want Catholic prioritisation, default collections and guides — so I have to keep switching between Verbum/Logos mode. Two preferences, one for the deutero-canonicals on/off and one for Catholic/Protestant set-up would be ideal - that way I could turn one on and the other off.

It's also important that people who own the Saints/Catholic Topic Index resources can access the relevant Guide sections, even when in non-Verbum mode. The section shouldn't be on by default in non-Verbum mode (IMO), but should be accessible. I think Louis has said that's already been fixed internally.

Once again, [y]

Anthony H

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/548562#Comment_548562

All I wanted was a way to not have to switch back and forth when I am working on some comparative studies but still be able to have the consistency of Verbum results while in Logos5.

Just out of interest... why? I'm trying to understand the need to switch back to Logos so we can potentially address it in the UI.

For me, I want to be able to have deutero-canonical data when I'm doing academic study (e.g. in Bible Facts), but don't want Catholic prioritisation, default collections and guides — so I have to keep switching between Verbum/Logos mode. Two preferences, one for the deutero-canonicals on/off and one for Catholic/Protestant set-up would be ideal - that way I could turn one on and the other off.

It's also important that people who own the Saints/Catholic Topic Index resources can access the relevant Guide sections, even when in non-Verbum mode. The section shouldn't be on by default in non-Verbum mode (IMO), but should be accessible. I think Louis has said that's already been fixed internally.

Access to relevant Guide sections and issues with prioritisation/default collections when in either L5 or Verbum mode. Deutero-canonical data being accessible. Mark pretty well sums it up. The two preference settings where we could turn one on and the other off is a great idea.

Keep Smiling 4 Jesus :)

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/548556#Comment_548556

This rule is significantly closer to Verbum Church Documents:

Author:("Benedict XVI","John Paul II") OR Subject:("Canon Law","Catholic Church--Catechisms","Catholic Church--Discipline.","Encyclicals, Papal","Popes--Infallibility","Roman Catholicism--Creeds") OR Title:("Seven Ecumenical Councils","Sources of Catholic Dogma","Vatican II Documents") -Subject:(1800,"Christianity--20th",Eastern,Ecclesia,Human,Meditation,Secular,Spiritual,Tradition) -Author:Wesley

Found "Ut Unum Sint" was being excluded so modified "Catholic Church Documents (Verbum + Catechism)" collection rule:

Author:("Benedict XVI","John Paul II") OR Subject:("Canon Law","Catholic Church--Catechisms","Catholic Church--Discipline.","Encyclicals, Papal","Popes--Infallibility","Roman Catholicism--Creeds") OR Title:("Seven Ecumenical Councils","Sources of Catholic Dogma","Vatican II Documents") -Subject:(1800,"Christianity--20th",Ecclesia,Human,Meditation,Orthodox,Secular,Spiritual,Tradition) -Author:Wesley

Faithlife group Logos Collections => https://faithlife.com/logos-collections/documents now has shared documents:

Catholic Catechism (Verbum + Youcat) has 3 specific resources because Title:"Catechism of the Catholic Church" matches more
Catholic Church Documents (Verbum + Catechism)
Catholic Church Documents (Verbum + more...)

Keep Smiling [:)]