Roman Special Forces at Jesus' Tomb
Comments
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I'm sold on this:
* they were temple custodians
* they were Jews
Does anyone have any evidence that either of these are not accurate?
Thanks.
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I was in the Special Forces during the Sixties, and I am a lifetime member of the Special Forces Association. The term "Special Forces" grew out of the WW2 units, Darby's Rangers, Merrill's Maurders, and the OSS. The term Special Forces actually applies only to the U.S.Army's Green Berets. Today it is common to include the SEALS when talking about SF.
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Throughout history most arnies have had special units of various type, but none were anything like the U.S. Army's Special Forces (Green Berets).
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I was in a discussion tonight regarding the guards at the tomb.
The Greek indicates these were soldiers doing guard duty. If I wanted to make certain there was no resurrection, I would use the very best soldiers.
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Gary Butner said:
I was in the Special Forces during the Sixties, and I am a lifetime member of the Special Forces Association. The term "Special Forces" grew out of the WW2 units, Darby's Rangers, Merrill's Maurders, and the OSS. The term Special Forces actually applies only to the U.S.Army's Green Berets. Today it is common to include the SEALS when talking about SF.
Throughout history most arnies have had special units of various type, but none were anything like the U.S. Army's Special Forces (Green Berets).
True. And thanks for serving. I was told that I was 4F [not acceptable for military service] because of my eye site.
Gary Butner said:I was in a discussion tonight regarding the guards at the tomb.
The Greek indicates these were soldiers doing guard duty. If I wanted to make certain there was no resurrection, I would use the very best soldiers.
Yes, one would use the very best available - but what was available? Some versions read 'take a guard' and is often interpreted as 'I will give you a guard'. Others read 'you have a guard' and can be interpreted as 'use your temple guards' In my research it looks like the original source for Roman Soldiers is the Gospel of Peter. But that 'source' also says many other things that have NOT been accepted. My opinion on that is take all or nothing. If Roman Soldiers than also add that the Cross walked out of the tomb. [and other things]
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The source I was using is the BDAG, which shows the Latin word for soldier, not guard.
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When the priests bribed the soldiers to lie about what happened at the tomb, they offered to protect them from the Governor's wrath if he heard about it. That would lead me to think that they were Roman soldiers. (Matthew chapter 28:14)
Not certain one can be 100% sure, but the Governor's wrath would be more of a concern for Roman soldiers.
"In all cases, the Church is to be judged by the Scripture, not the Scripture by the Church," John Wesley0 -
Room4more said:
What does this have to do with the Bible, again, Please?
Other than a personal quest in search of the holy grail...
Oh I know this is going to turn into a theo debate right? going back over the resources that KS4J coincidentally and conveniently provided, it could easily happen..
Thanks
Don't worry. I give you full permission not to read it.
"In all cases, the Church is to be judged by the Scripture, not the Scripture by the Church," John Wesley0 -
Michael Childs said:
When the priests bribed the soldiers to lie about what happened at the tomb, they offered to protect them from the Governor's wrath if he heard about it. That would lead me to think that they were Roman soldiers. (Matthew chapter 28:14)
Not certain one can be 100% sure, but the Governor's wrath would be more of a concern for Roman soldiers.
Very good point. For what it's worth, I agree with you [8-|]
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Michael Childs said:
When the priests bribed the soldiers to lie about what happened at the tomb, they offered to protect them from the Governor's wrath if he heard about it. That would lead me to think that they were Roman soldiers. (Matthew chapter 28:14)
Not certain one can be 100% sure, but the Governor's wrath would be more of a concern for Roman soldiers.
Question: What were the rules of engagement? Did Rome require all those that carried sharp pointy things to meet the same standards the Roman Soldiers had to meet? If they were Roman Soldiers how could the priests protect them? If they were Temple Guards they might be able to but not Roman Soldiers. But were the Temple Guards required to live up to Roman Standards???
Gary Butner said:The source I was using is the BDAG, which shows the Latin word for soldier, not guard.
κουστωδία 2892 [Is this the reference you mean?]
P Oxy II. 29420 (a.d. 22) (= Selections, p. 35) ἐν κ̣οσ[τ]ωδε[1][ίᾳ εἰσί is, so far as we know, the earliest ex. of this borrowed word. For the spelling κουστωδία, as in Mt 27:65f., 28:11, cf P Ryl II. 1892 (a.d. 128) δημοσίο̣(υ) ἱματισμο̣ῦ̣ κουστωδιῶ̣ν, “public clothing for the guards”: see also Hatzidakis Gr. p. 109. In a fragmentary report referring to the Jewish War of Trajan, P Par 68A. 8, we find κωστωδία—ταῦτα ἐγένετο ὅτι τινὰς ἐπὶ κωστωδίαν ἥρπασαν καὶ [τοὺς ἁρπασθέντ]ας ἐτραυμάτισαν: the word is similarly restored in BGU I. 3413 (ii/a.d.). M&M
A BORROWED word. Question did kids call every one in uniform a κουστωδία or just the Roman ones? Did the general population see the difference between a Soldier and a Guard?
And what early references, other then the Gospel of Peter, can you find before 1000 ad that says Roman?
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David, I imagine if they were temple guards Pilate would have no interest. Since the seal was based upon Roman law, it is unlikely that temple police would be used. Nor would temple guards need to be bribed. They would have simply been ordered by the high priests as to what they could say. After forcing Pilate to crucify Jesus, the priests likely felt they could control him.
At least that is most likely to me. But I just don't think anyone can say for certain.
David Ames said:Michael Childs said:When the priests bribed the soldiers to lie about what happened at the tomb, they offered to protect them from the Governor's wrath if he heard about it. That would lead me to think that they were Roman soldiers. (Matthew chapter 28:14)
Not certain one can be 100% sure, but the Governor's wrath would be more of a concern for Roman soldiers.
Question: What were the rules of engagement? Did Rome require all those that carried sharp pointy things to meet the same standards the Roman Soldiers had to meet? If they were Roman Soldiers how could the priests protect them? If they were Temple Guards they might be able to but not Roman Soldiers. But were the Temple Guards required to live up to Roman Standards???
Gary Butner said:The source I was using is the BDAG, which shows the Latin word for soldier, not guard.
κουστωδία 2892 [Is this the reference you mean?]
P Oxy II. 29420 (a.d. 22) (= Selections, p. 35) ἐν κ̣οσ[τ]ωδε[1][ίᾳ εἰσί is, so far as we know, the earliest ex. of this borrowed word. For the spelling κουστωδία, as in Mt 27:65f., 28:11, cf P Ryl II. 1892 (a.d. 128) δημοσίο̣(υ) ἱματισμο̣ῦ̣ κουστωδιῶ̣ν, “public clothing for the guards”: see also Hatzidakis Gr. p. 109. In a fragmentary report referring to the Jewish War of Trajan, P Par 68A. 8, we find κωστωδία—ταῦτα ἐγένετο ὅτι τινὰς ἐπὶ κωστωδίαν ἥρπασαν καὶ [τοὺς ἁρπασθέντ]ας ἐτραυμάτισαν: the word is similarly restored in BGU I. 3413 (ii/a.d.). M&M
A BORROWED word. Question did kids call every one in uniform a κουστωδία or just the Roman ones? Did the general population see the difference between a Soldier and a Guard?
And what early references, other then the Gospel of Peter, can you find before 1000 ad that says Roman?
"In all cases, the Church is to be judged by the Scripture, not the Scripture by the Church," John Wesley0 -
David Ames:
Looking back what is it that Pilate had to fear?
If Pilate wanted to make sure that no rebellion would start, would he use a group of temple guards?
I believe he would have used the best “guard” that he had.
I think that when we see a guard it means a group of many, not just one.
As to the priests offering a bribe, why would they need to pay any temple guard that would be under their control?
The bribe would only need to be paid if it were a group of roman soldiers.
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