Bible software companies should consider UltraViolet model
Comments
-
alabama24 said:Sogol said:
This is analogous to when it was said that the money in telecom was in VOICE
In no way is it analogous. The telecom companies were wrong, yes... they were able to get people to pay MORE money with data fees. The same isn't true with ebooks. Over time, publishers may likely cease printing. That may be 5 years or 500. Who knows. But they make less money on ebooks, and people aren't likely to pay more for them. Your system means less money for the publishers, and for that reason, you're fired. (Sorry, a random Donald Trump's Apprentice reference
). Again, I would love to see this come to fruition... but I can't imagine it ever will. By the time anything like this <might> come about, the market (and technology) will be a completely different place.
You've completely missed the point. I'm sure the telcos would have loved it if they could have milked the high margin voice revenue stream for all eternity. The problem was that the marketplace was changing, and despite how massive and powerful they were/are (much bigger than any publishing company, mind you), they had no choice but to spend many, many billions of dollars to build the data infrastructures that the market was demanding. And this spending was for the lower margin data products. The result has been significant margin compression across the board, and yet they still need to make even further capex investments in order to keep pace with what the market demands of them.
An even closer example to what the book publishing houses face can be seen with the newspapers. That industry, which was hugely profitable at one point, has been decimated by the Internet (just take a look at the market cap decline of Gannet over time). There were lots of newspapers that didn't take the Internet threat seriously enough, in no small number of cases because they were quite comfortable with the fat margins they were earning and didn't want to cannibalize their existing models. The result is that many of such publications are either hollow shells of what they once were, or they are gone altogether.
What's my point? History is replete with examples of industries that unsuccessfully tried to maintain high-margin legacy business models long after the marketplace had shifted. You see this pattern again and again in so many industries, but especially in those related to technology and media. I see absolutely no reason why the publishers will be able to buck the trend. In fact, I think they would be one of the last industries I would pick to be able to do so.
It's a virtual economic certainty that in a competitive marketplace, high margin products will face margin compression over time. And this is why companies must constantly innovate and proactively align their product and pricing strategies with where the market is headed. Anything else is a sure-fire recipe for death. So even if the model I suggested did lead to lower revenues for publishers (and I am by no means saying it will), even this doesn't mean that it would be unwise for them to go in that direction. As long as companies are earning returns that exceed their costs of capital, sometimes you have to sacrifice profitability in the near-term in order to stay with the direction of the market. Choose not to give customers what they want and eventually someone else will find a way to do so.
Now I can't predict what the publishers and Bible software companies will do. All I'm saying is that if the direction of the market does indeed align with the proposal I suggested, then it is anything but irrational for them to move in that direction as well. Of course, you can argue against my thinking on grounds that the proposal I suggested does not present significant value to customers, and thus the marketplace is not headed in that direction. You could also argue that the rental model (similar to Netflix) will become the dominant way that customers gain access to eBooks in the future, and thus questions about license ownership become somewhat irrelevant. However, I am yet to see such an argument for these positions that I find convincing. If you feel you have such an argument, I'd love to hear it.
0 -
Sogol said:
You've completely missed the point.
We'll have to agree to disagree, but I think it's you who has missed the point. There is no viable path for you to purchase an eBook from Barnes & Noble or Kindle and receive a free copy in Logos. It would put Logos out of business... UNLESS Logos changes their business model to charge for the software. Since there is no advantage to publisher, nor an advantage to the reseller (well, at least not to the "big guys"), it won't happen.
macOS, iOS & iPadOS |Logs| Install
Choose Truth Over Tribe | Become a Joyful Outsider!0 -
There already is a common format for ebooks that most software can read. it's called ebooks. If you buy a book from Amazon, B&N or Apple they all come in their property format to keep you in their eco system. If they used a common format for Bible Software resources you would need 1 standard for tagging. All the software companions would have to change their software to read that format and the consortium or publishers would have to do all the tagging. If you took the standard format and had each company do their own tagging you would still be buying the book all over again when you changed software because each company would have to do their own tagging and that is not an was or cheap process.
The reference for movies doesn't work because they all use the same format. Plus I would never buy a movie because of Ultra Violet. It's the movie companies locked down way of trying to get people away from iTunes (they re scared of Apple). It's still a locked down proprietary format and you can only use it where they say. If they really wanted you to have the content available anywhere they wouldn't put DRM on it and allow you to just have the file, but they don't.
I love Logos and made the decision to switch from WordSearch. Did I have to buy some resources again, yes. Was it worth the switch, yes. Would I like to have been able to bring all my resources with, yes, but then I would have much more than WordSearch offered because the shared format would have limited to Logos being basically the same as WordSearch.
I've started buying more Vyrso resources because that way I can have them in my Logos library. While they are still growing Vyrso the one thing I would like to see would be the ability to add PDF or EPUB to Vyrso. I understand that searching would be extremely limited because of not being tagged but it would be nice to have all my reference material in 1 place. I would even be willing to pay a fee to be able to sync non-Logos resources (PDF/EPUB) because I understand they are providing the servers.
0 -
Bingo! [Y]
Stephen said:The reference for movies doesn't work because they all use the same format. Plus I would never buy a movie because of Ultra Violet. It's the movie companies locked down way of trying to get people away from iTunes (they re scared of Apple). It's still a locked down proprietary format
There is another point worth mentioning is the fact that more than often publishers do not provide Bible Software companies with anything more than the right/license to re-produce their works. That means that Logos, Accordance, and others actually spend time and money on data entry as well as their own original tagging. This means that while one may claim the content is the same what is provided is actually a very different edition created by different individuals worth of their pay.
חַפְּשׂוּ בַּתּוֹרָה הֵיטֵב וְאַל תִּסְתַּמְּכוּ עַל דְּבָרַי
0 -
alabama24 said:
Not many books are included in the program... Which argues against the latter part of your statement.
there are 100,000 and they are just starting. Vyrso had just a few when they rolled out...
alabama24 said:There is no viable path for you to purchase an eBook from Barnes & Noble or Kindle and receive a free copy in Logos.
you don't read well. The model Sogol is proposing would charge a customer with a plain-text license a platform fee, which would be in Logos' discretion (2.99 - 2999.99 - it is up to Logos)
alabama24 said:Since there is no advantage to publisher, nor an advantage to the reseller (well, at least not to the "big guys"), it won't happen.
can you provide ANY documented proof, other than your subjective opinion or a hearsay to back up your statement?
0 -
alabama24 said:
Since there is no advantage to publisher, nor an advantage to the reseller (well, at least not to the "big guys"), it won't happen.
That pretty much sums it up
Logos 7 Collectors Edition
0 -
BKMitchell said:
There is another point worth mentioning is the fact that more than often publishers do not provide Bible Software companies with anything more than the right/license to re-produce their works. That means that Logos, Accordance, and others actually spend time and money on data entry
That is not correct in 99% of resources. According to information that Logos disclosed they heave process-ready electronic files from publishers currently. From scratch data entry is done by Logos mostly for old public domain books that do not exist in electronic format
0 -
Super.Tramp said:alabama24 said:
Since there is no advantage to publisher, nor an advantage to the reseller (well, at least not to the "big guys"), it won't happen.
That pretty much sums it up
wake up and smell the roses! Just because they are SLOW to get it (similar to the newspaper business that Sogol mentioned), does not mean that there is no advantage to publishers and resellers. You guys sound like a broken record, without any documented proof.
- FACT - music sales has increased, producing raising revenue for recording industry and resellers once the industry accepted "buy once, play everywhere" philosophy customers demanded
- FACT - Amazon (reseller) instituted the MatchBook program with SUPPORT from publishers.
- FACT - Amazon allows a heavily discounted purchase of the audiobook title if a Kindle ebook is purchased - this is also similar to the UV model - they charge around $10-16 (a platform fee if you will) for an audiobook normally selling for $24 and up
where the biggest misunderstanding lies with this post is that nobody is expecting Logos tagging to be the same as Accordance's or WS's, etc. Each company would continue to innovate as before and set pricing for their Value Added services in order to bring customers to their platform. But if I bought a title from A for example, I already paid for 1) license to the publisher and 2) license to A to view such title on their platform. So, a customer thinks, I should at least be able to view a plain text version of the resource in Logos for free or very close to free (since there is virtually no expense for Logos to display plain text resources in their software). The benefit to Logos would be in persuading free customers to upgrade their elsewhere-purchased resources to the Logos platform - they operate under this paradigm right now - giving away "free" software hoping to persuade customers to buy more resources
The opposite would also work in Logos favor - any Logos purchased resource would be eligible to be transferred to Kindle (maybe for a small fee, maybe free). this sure beats manually converting a 500+page resource.
0 -
toughski said:
According to information that Logos disclosed they heave process-ready electronic files from publishers currently.
Very interesting! Would you mind posting the link or was this disclosed to you in a private e-mail. I would love also to read this disclosed information and find out what is meant by "process-ready" files?
It would be interesting to know if works like the follow were as you say provided in electronic format to Logos:
- Gedolah: Manuscrit B. 19a de Leningrad
- Massorah spelling in the Hebrew Bible
- Qumran Biblical Dead Sea Scrolls Database
- A Manual of Hebrew Poetics
- The Richter Hebrew Morphology (Yet, to be released)
- Hebrew Bible: Andersen-Forbes Phrase Marker Analysis
- Andersen-Forbes Hebrew Grammatical Relationships
- The Lexham Syntactic Greek New Testament
חַפְּשׂוּ בַּתּוֹרָה הֵיטֵב וְאַל תִּסְתַּמְּכוּ עַל דְּבָרַי
0 -
5BKMitchell said:Very interesting! Would you mind posting the link or was this disclosed to you in a private e-mail. I would love also to read this disclosed information and find out what is meant by "process-ready" files?
I get the feeling you already know the answer for your question and are trying to misrepresent what I am saying.
sorry, I am unable to spend the time right now to find a specific post by Logos, but it was provided on this Forum or Blog (by Bob or Bradley, I believe), and maybe other long-time members can support my statement.
Secondly, in no way I am privy to the origin of specific titles. How would I know where and how Logos gets over 10,000 titles they publish each year? Your request looks ridiculous!
I believe we are talking about different things. The majority of Logos/Vyrso titles LOGOS licenses from publishers. They come already digitized, proofread, edited and ready for Logos to do their magic tagging.As a matter of fact, Logos does not even correct typos found in these titles, but sends the typo reports to publishers for review.
However there are some public domain titles that Logos processes and becomes a publisher itself. There are also a group of (mostly academic) resources that LOGOS itself creates (again, acting as a publisher under LEXHAM brand). In these two latter cases there is considerable work done by Logos to digitize a print work, proofread, tag, edit, etc. You would have to ask Logos what % EXACTLY each group represents, or you can get a clue by looking at their website catalog and sorting by publisher
0 -
toughski said:
The majority of Logos/Vyrso titles LOGOS licenses from publishers. They come already digitized, proofread, edited and ready for Logos to do their magic tagging.As a matter of fact, Logos does not even correct typos found in these titles, but sends the typo reports to publishers for review.
Every morning when I fire up Logos 5 my homepage shows a list of resources that have been updated. That list can number from a dozen to over 150 books. This is proof enough to me that Logos does much more to the text than just pass along what the publisher has produced. I also remember a Logos blog article on a very expensive book scanner. Not all books come digitized from the publisher.
Logos 7 Collectors Edition
0 -
Everyone's comparisons to Amazon and their book match is great but it only works on a Kindle. their format is proprietary so I can't read a Kindle book in iBooks or the Nook. it's still locked down and even though you are buying a licenses to the book you can't transfer it. While you can load PDF and EPUBS into most readers you loose functionality with them. That's what would happen with the resources in Bible Software. If you used a basic common format then you would loose all the functionality for books that weren't purchased through your bible software company. Even If I and all the resources I had with WordSearch they would be basically useless in Logos except for reading the books. What good would having Strongs, BDAG or another resource if I had to manually go through the resources to find the references I was looking for or if they even had any.
What you are paying for is to have the software do all that "leg work" for you. I don't know about you but I doubt I would by all these resources and the try and use them in another software program where they were basically books without the functionality. What made me switch from WordSearch to Logos was the Mac version and all the resources. Yes the early version was painful but now they have a very good program and I believe my investment was worth it. WordSearch came out with a Mac version round the same time but theirs was a very poor port of the windows code and I didn't see the effort Logos was doing. I also looked at Accordance but Logos appeared to ahem many more resources at the time so I decided on Logos and I have no plans switch to any other software, even if I could transfer resources for a fee.
0 -
Logos texts are far more than an eText.... Logos must tag every scripture reference to assure the correct thing pops up when you select it. Where other books are referenced if it is in the Logos library system it is tagged to take you directly to the defenced book. These things are value added that will likely never be found in typical eBooks, now for some things I am happy to have a plain ebook, and to that end Logos has Vyrso is Logos answer to it. For plain ebooks I tend to prefer Amazon because I can use Calibre to convert them over and use them with any epub reader I want. I personally think it would be a wonderful thing to have the option to transfer books from one source to another and would gladly pay a fee... With the bulk of my books in Logos it would be wonderful to have them all there... also I think to the fact that I Wouldn't mind having all my works in Accordance for it's stability and speed. But this is in no way a good thing for publishers who would love you to purchase a copy for each software, and I don;t mind doing this for translations I want to use but I have not and will not do it for more than a couple resources.
-Dan
0 -
Hello Again,
toughski said:I get the feeling you already know the answer for your question and are trying to misrepresent what I am saying.
Feelings and assumptions are often misleading!! This is why I asked the question rather than assuming I knew what you meant.
toughski said:I believe we are talking about different things.
I agree! This is one of the issues that can come up when communicating through non-verbal means.
חַפְּשׂוּ בַּתּוֹרָה הֵיטֵב וְאַל תִּסְתַּמְּכוּ עַל דְּבָרַי
0 -
Or even through verbal means. It just takes longer to sort it out in this setting.BKMitchell said:Hello Again,
toughski said:I get the feeling you already know the answer for your question and are trying to misrepresent what I am saying.
Feelings and assumptions are often misleading!! This is why I asked the question rather than assuming I knew what you meant.
toughski said:I believe we are talking about different things.
I agree! This is one of the issues that can come up when communicating through non-verbal means.
This +1[Y][Y][Y][Y]Super.Tramp said:I am 100% against Logos participating in this type of arrangement. I have no desire to read my books in Accordance or WordSearch. A few years back I decided to make the Logos format my standard . I prefer Logos not waste their time.
The model proposed by Sogol sounds awful to me. It would be confusing, and sounds more expensive - if somewhat more convenient for a certain subset of the market. For my market demographic, it would not be a benefit to me, and sounds like it would cost somewhat more. I am completely against this, totally, 100%. I do not use, nor do I plan to use any other software, so in essence I would be paying more for something I don't want and won't use. If nothing else the software would cost more, as well as the updates. I dislike this, Logos is at the outer-limit of what I can afford now. Making the titles more expensive would be prohibitive for me in the long run. I may continue to purchase titles, but my budget has not changed. Thus no tangible benefit to logos (no additional income from this customer), and no tangible benefit to me either. The publisher also doesn't make much additional money... The mere thought of this raises my ire. If I used multiple softwares, or if I desired to do so then perhaps this would be attractive, but I don't, nor will I. I'm a one horse kind of guy.
Just leave things be. They have something that works incredibly well; and indeed they are the best in the business for what they do. If you want to start something like this your best bet is going to be to reach out to the smaller, struggling companies and hope they hitch their wagons together.
Heaven help us if it does happen. I don't think it will happen by legislation though. More than likely now that Logos is venturing into academic and literary works is that someone will come along with a shareware/freeware/freemium/adware multi-platform reader that can strip the DRM off logos files (should there be any), and allow you to read them and maintain the tagging. Then books could be shared on torrent sites, etc... This is already happening with L3 and its resources... A friend who I'm discipling is casually into that sort of thing, and asked me what I thought about pirating the bible... Any way, the analog here would be the music industry - DRM is all but dead over there, and everyone has organically chosen to rally around a few standards that pretty much any player can use. Other industries are slowly examining adopting those paradigms and prosecuting the abusers.Dan Francis said:alabama24 said:I understand the "wouldn't it be nice" idea. But it isn't realistic. The publishers partner with the various platform holders, but there is NO incentive for the platform holders to work together.
I understand that fully but one day sooner than later things likely will be digital only with standards enforced to be somewhat cross platform compatible (by legislation likely). The dangerous at that point is Logos might find itself being less needed. Right now I agree you are right no benefit anywhere for anyone.
-Dan
L2 lvl4 (...) WORDsearch, all the way through L10,
0 -
abondservant said:
A friend who I'm discipling is casually into that sort of thing, and asked me what I thought about pirating the bible...
The Word of God is not chained, to quote Paul. That said, I do not advocate distribution of copywriter works. In an ideal world the knowledge would be freely shared. But I know that the authors and all the people working at the publishers and at Logos all need to eat and make a living. Jacob may have well stolen a blessing from his father, but why should we steal the blessing of works from others. There is a a multitude of free resources on the net for people to go to. One would hope that if one stole a Bible it might be read and lead that child of God to faith and understanding of the wrong they may have done and may be moved to make restitution. To steal a physical book, be it from the Library or a Church or a book store is probably seen by all as wrong (I know the missing B.A.S. from the pews, did not worry the Dean of the Cathedral in Calgary too much, telling me he only hoped they were being used). To steal a book from a Library is rob others from having use of it, from a store it is to take the bread from table of the workers/owner, from a Church one would have hope they would have the grace to forgive, but it does require replacing thus taking money that could be used elsewhere for God's work.
-Dan
0 -
abondservant said:
I do not use, nor do I plan to use any other software, so in essence I would be paying more for something I don't want and won't use. If nothing else the software would cost more, as well as the updates.
please explain how you would pay more? If you simply buy your books through Logos, there are no other fees, other than Logos'
tiles would not be more expensive. you would pay a SMALLER fee than now if you want to own a license to the resource in more than 1 format, under the proposed plan.abondservant said:Making the titles more expensive would be prohibitive for me in the long run.
usually the battle cry of every dying business...abondservant said:Just leave things be.
abondservant said:They have something that works incredibly well; and indeed they are the best in the business for what they do
Now, with Logos I wholeheartedly agree and back it up with my wallet, but it probably can take Amazon a nanosecond to program functionality where any scripture reference pops up a verse in your preferred Bible on Kindle, then, the entire Vyrso business joins dinosaurs.
0 -
I simply said to him "you really want to steal the bible? Really?"Dan Francis said:abondservant said:A friend who I'm discipling is casually into that sort of thing, and asked me what I thought about pirating the bible...
The Word of God is not chained, to quote Paul. That said, I do not advocate distribution of copywriter works. In an ideal world the knowledge would be freely shared. But I know that the authors and all the people working at the publishers and at Logos all need to eat and make a living. Jacob may have well stolen a blessing from his father, but why should we steal the blessing of works from others. There is a a multitude of free resources on the net for people to go to. One would hope that if one stole a Bible it might be read and lead that child of God to faith and understanding of the wrong they may have done and may be moved to make restitution. To steal a physical book, be it from the Library or a Church or a book store is probably seen by all as wrong (I know the missing B.A.S. from the pews, did not worry the Dean of the Cathedral in Calgary too much, telling me he only hoped they were being used). To steal a book from a Library is rob others from having use of it, from a store it is to take the bread from table of the workers/owner, from a Church one would have hope they would have the grace to forgive, but it does require replacing thus taking money that could be used elsewhere for God's work.
-Dan
That pretty much settled it.
A number of years ago a friend had influenced me regarding "purchasing" the bible, freely it was given, freely we should give and all... But it occurred to me that what one pays for isn't the scriptures text itself - instead you are paying the translators, the publishers, the book store, the truck driver that delivered it, and so forth. IN logos you are also paying for tagging, and added value they provide. The content of the Bible - while free - is but a fraction of the process.L2 lvl4 (...) WORDsearch, all the way through L10,
0 -
You've read the thread I don't need to answer any of these directly - however the indications from the MVP's On this thread are that this wouldn't work without upgrade fees, software fees, and potentially higher resource cost upfront. Ultraviolet titles are more expensive, and aren't found in the 5$ bin at walmart...toughski said:abondservant said:I do not use, nor do I plan to use any other software, so in essence I would be paying more for something I don't want and won't use. If nothing else the software would cost more, as well as the updates.
please explain how you would pay more? If you simply buy your books through Logos, there are no other fees, other than Logos'
tiles would not be more expensive. you would pay a SMALLER fee than now if you want to own a license to the resource in more than 1 format, under the proposed plan.abondservant said:Making the titles more expensive would be prohibitive for me in the long run.
usually the battle cry of every dying business...abondservant said:Just leave things be.
abondservant said:They have something that works incredibly well; and indeed they are the best in the business for what they do
Now, with Logos I wholeheartedly agree and back it up with my wallet, but it probably can take Amazon a nanosecond to program functionality where any scripture reference pops up a verse in your preferred Bible on Kindle, then, the entire Vyrso business joins dinosaurs.
As to your third point, you're arguing "lets take something successful and take it in a virtually untested and unprecedented direction, because doing what has always and is still working is what businesses that are failing do".
Frankly thats a poor argument.
If your sports team that had just won the superbowl proceeded to fire the coach, and all their first string players because "keeping things the same" is what all the teams they beat did the previous year, people would be outraged (unless you're speaking of bucs fans, we'd just shake our head and move on).
The chef that his on the recipe for the best mole recipe in the world, doesn't throw it all away and go in a different direction all together... Experiment with slightly different things? sure. Throw that away and start trying to use chili in its place? certainly not.
NO smart business person would do that what so ever.L2 lvl4 (...) WORDsearch, all the way through L10,
0 -
Dan Francis said:
To steal a book from a Library is rob others from having use of it, from a store it is to take the bread from table of the workers/owner, from a Church one would have hope they would have the grace to forgive, but it does require replacing thus taking money that could be used elsewhere for God's work.
Very thoughtful post Dan.
Logos 7 Collectors Edition
0 -
I am reluctant to join this discussion due to the emotion already shown for differing positions. I do not have all the answers or know the inner workings of Logos or other software companies in how they develop resources. Here are my thoughts briefly:
- A standard format will not work and allow all the functionality we currently enjoy from Logos or other Bible software companies.
- The solution to this matter lies with the publishers, rather than the software companies. They need to agree to only collecting a royalty on the first sale and then allow for a publishers license for that customer to use that resources.
- Each software company would charge to license the customer to use that resource with their software, creating an economic model similar to the current one. They do not need to pay royalties, if the customer already has a publisher license allow for a lower price to purchase a resource owned in another package.
- Based on the above, most customers would only want to use this if they are switching software companies completely (i.e. another company to Logos); they want to use bibles, lexicons (BDAG and HALOT) and some commentaries in more than one software package, but it would cost them money to do so. I do not think many customers would pay to have entire libraries duplicated if they have to pay the software license fee to do so.
- This plan makes it easier to switch software companies.
- It may make negotiations with publishers more standardized.
- The market for this on an extensive scale is probably pretty limited, except as noted above on certain resources.
I did a guest article on this matter on Kevin Purcell's website last month. I don't know if providing the URL is appropriate, so if you are interested you can find it. Kevin rebutted my article on a few points.
0 -
John Fidel said:
I did a guest article on this matter on Kevin Purcell's website last month. I don't know if providing the URL is appropriate, so if you are interested you can find it. Kevin rebutted my article on a few points.
I see no problem at all in you providing a link to that article. Please do so.
John Fidel said:I am reluctant to join this discussion due to the emotion already shown for differing positions.
When all is said and done, there is nothing any of us can do to effect a change like this to come about. None of us are in the decision making loop. So we can passionately argue for or against it but should never allow the exchange to ruin our day. We should definitely not allow it to be a detriment to our love for one another. If you allow me to wax hyper-Calvinistic; what is meant to be, will be.
Logos 7 Collectors Edition
0 -
Super.Tramp said:
If you allow me to wax hyper-Calvinistic; what is meant to be, will be.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xZbKHDPPrrc
Nothing hyper-Calvinistic about that—it's just good biblical theology.
10 If you are to be taken captive,
into captivity you go;
if you kill with the sword,
with the sword you must be killed.Actually, this is not a good translation. It should be "if killed by the sword, by the sword you must be killed." It comes from Jer 15.2
And if they ask you, ‘To what shall we go forth?’ answer them, ‘Thus said the Lord:
Those destined for the plague, to the plague;
Those destined for the sword, to the sword;
Those destined for famine, to famine;
Those destined for captivity, to captivity.george
gfsomselיְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן
0 -
George Somsel said:
Nothing hyper-Calvinistic about that—it's just good biblical theology.
I won't debate you George. I just read Jeremiah 15:2 as a pronouncement of judgement. I also read a possibility of God being "won over." (But, of course, an all knowing, sovereign God can not be taken by surprise.)
Logos 7 Collectors Edition
0 -
Super.Tramp said:George Somsel said:
Nothing hyper-Calvinistic about that—it's just good biblical theology.
I won't debate you George. I just read Jeremiah 15:2 as a pronouncement of judgement. I also read a possibility of God being "won over." (But, of course, an all knowing, sovereign God can not be taken by surprise.)
I was hoping you would join me in growing tulips in the garden.
george
gfsomselיְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן
0 -
George Somsel said:
I was hoping you would join me in growing tulips in the garden.
I've got my gloves, my spade, and clamdiggers on. I am ready to start planting tulips! [W]
Logos 7 Collectors Edition
0 -
Super.Tramp said:George Somsel said:
I was hoping you would join me in growing tulips in the garden.
I've got my gloves, my spade, and clamdiggers on. I am ready to start planting tulips!
Total Depravity
Unconditional Election
Limited Atonement
Irresistible Grace
Perseverance of the Saints
george
gfsomselיְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן
0 -
Per our original discussion about the UltraViolet "Digital Locker" model, here an FYI for anyone who likes streaming movies and wants to see how neat the UltraViolet model is.....
VUDU (www.vudu.com), which is Walmart's UltraViolet streaming service, has a special 50% off deal through January 31 that credits your UltraViolet account with movies you already own on DVD.
If you use their "Disc to Digital" feature for 10 or more DVDs you own, you pay the following per DVD:
$1.00 to get the standard definition (SD) version in UltraViolet
$2.50 to get the high definition (HDX) version in UltraViolet
$1.00 to convert any Blu-ray DVD to the HDX version in UltraViolet
Their normal rates (after January 31) are twice that.
In addition, they give you a $2 credit towards your first conversion when you sign up (plus 5 free HDX movies).
All you have to do is download the software from VUDU and put the DVDs in your drive. It will then tell you whether each title is available or not. You can also take DVDs into Walmart and have them processed there (helpful if you don't have a DVD drive on your laptop, or if you want to process Blu-ray discs but don't have a Blu-ray drive on your computer).
I ran this for a bunch of my DVDs tonight. Of the 73 DVDs I tried out, 47 were successful, 22 were not presently available in UltraViolet, and the system was unable to identify 4 of my DVDs. That's a 64% success rate, but most of the DVDs that didn't work were either non-mainstream movies or Disney films (I believe that Disney is the only major studio to hold out on UltraViolet participation).
I suppose it's possible that they could extend the deal beyond January 31, but that's the current end date listed.
If you just want to try UltraViolet out and not pay anything, you can sign up for a VUDU account and get 5 free HDX movies. Then you could use the free $2 credit to do a couple DVD conversions to SD format. Finally, you could go sign up at the other UltraViolet participants (TargetTicket, CinemaNow, Flixster, etc.), as they usually give you some free movies for signing up as well. All of the movies you get from these will be added to your UltraViolet account (which you must create as well) once you link your accounts. I got about 30 free movies this way.
Once again, I still think the UltraViolet model for "Digital Lockers" is a great system. It would be awesome if this also came to music and eBooks.... and Bible software content too, of course!
0 -
I forgot to mention one other cool feature of UltraViolet....
You can actually add 5 additional users per account (and you set the permissions for each). So it is great for sharing the content.
I don't see such a feature applying to our discussion here of Bible software, but it's pretty neat to have for movies.
0 -
Sogol said:
I ran this for a bunch of my DVDs tonight. Of the 73 DVDs I tried out, 47 were successful, 22 were not presently available in UltraViolet, and the system was unable to identify 4 of my DVDs. That's a 64% success rate, but most of the DVDs that didn't work were either non-mainstream movies or Disney films (I believe that Disney is the only major studio to hold out on UltraViolet participation).
I am very busy right now and probably won't have the time before the 31st... [:s]
Sogol said:Once again, I still think the UltraViolet model for "Digital Lockers" is a great system. It would be awesome if this also came to music and eBooks.... and Bible software content too, of course!
For clarification: what do you mean by the UV 'model'? How would it apply to Logos?
- To be completely honest, I am a bit confused by UV. I could care less about any movies in UV format. I want them in my iTunes library... Otherwise the movies are worthless to me. UV has no connection to adding movies to iTunes, does it? If not, then how does this model apply to Logos?
- To be clear again: however UV works, it has the blessing of the copyright holders. They aren't illegally selling discounted movies, nor are they giving them away from the "goodness of their hearts." They are trying to make money and the believe they have a model to do so.
- one last thing: UV might be an organization tied to the movie houses (I have no idea if they are). If this is true, it further distances this "model" from anything related to Logos. [Hulu is a similar company, which is owned by some networks... I can't watch 'Hulu' shows on netflix, which has a much nicer interface on my device]
FWIW- I am very glad for "iTunes Match." I pay $25 a year for cloud access to music I did not purchase from iTunes. All things equal, I buy from iTunes. When Amazon does a loss leader on an album for $2-5, I buy it there and access it in iTunes. It's great. [:)] I would love to buy a $1.99 kindle deal and get the Logos copy free (Or at a significant discount,), but I don't see anything to point me to this ever being a real possibility.
macOS, iOS & iPadOS |Logs| Install
Choose Truth Over Tribe | Become a Joyful Outsider!0 -
alabama24 said:Sogol said:
I ran this for a bunch of my DVDs tonight. Of the 73 DVDs I tried out, 47 were successful, 22 were not presently available in UltraViolet, and the system was unable to identify 4 of my DVDs. That's a 64% success rate, but most of the DVDs that didn't work were either non-mainstream movies or Disney films (I believe that Disney is the only major studio to hold out on UltraViolet participation).
I am very busy right now and probably won't have the time before the 31st...
Sogol said:Once again, I still think the UltraViolet model for "Digital Lockers" is a great system. It would be awesome if this also came to music and eBooks.... and Bible software content too, of course!
For clarification: what do you mean by the UV 'model'? How would it apply to Logos?
- To be completely honest, I am a bit confused by UV. I could care less about any movies in UV format. I want them in my iTunes library... Otherwise the movies are worthless to me. UV has no connection to adding movies to iTunes, does it? If not, then how does this model apply to Logos?
- To be clear again: however UV works, it has the blessing of the copyright holders. They aren't illegally selling discounted movies, nor are they giving them away from the "goodness of their hearts." They are trying to make money and the believe they have a model to do so.
- one last thing: UV might be an organization tied to the movie houses (I have no idea if they are). If this is true, it further distances this "model" from anything related to Logos. [Hulu is a similar company, which is owned by some networks... I can't watch 'Hulu' shows on netflix, which has a much nicer interface on my device]
FWIW- I am very glad for "iTunes Match." I pay $25 a year for cloud access to music I did not purchase from iTunes. All things equal, I buy from iTunes. When Amazon does a loss leader on an album for $2-5, I buy it there and access it in iTunes. It's great.
I would love to buy a $1.99 kindle deal and get the Logos copy free (Or at a significant discount,), but I don't see anything to point me to this ever being a real possibility. In a nutshell, what I am referring to as "the UV Model" is a just a more advanced way to manage the digital media assets a consumer owns, whether they be books, movies, music or video games.
What this model does it to essentially "unbundle" the digital rights to content from the digital rights of delivery platforms.
Why is this necessary? Primarily because the digital content we own is tied to individual content delivery platforms, yet the content delivery platforms we prefer have changed and continue to change so quickly. Thus if consumers want to maintain the value of the digital content they own, they are forced to make a very long-term bet on which content delivery platforms will be the best in the long-run. However, none of us really have much certainty as to which will be the best in the long-run, and for all we know, the best ones in the long-run may not even exist yet!
For example, let's look at digital books. At the moment, there are a handful of mainstream ways we can buy digital books. There's Amazon (Kindle), Apple (iBooks), Barnes & Noble (Nook), Google (Play), and maybe Adobe Digital Editions from the publisher (I'm sure there's others too, but let's go with these). If I want to keep the long-term value of my digital book library intact, then before buying any digital books I have to make a long-term bet on which platform(s) will succeed and thrive over time, because the digital books I buy are tied to whichever of the platforms I buy them on.
At the moment, Amazon looks like a good long-term bet, but there's no guarantee they'll stay in the lead. Google and Apple are strong companies overall, but both are a bit weaker in this specific space (and Google has a history of bailing out of businesses that aren't thriving). Barnes and Noble's Nook looks somewhat weak, but they could end up getting acquired by a larger player (I believe Microsoft already has an investment in them). And though Adobe Digital Editions doesn't have too much, some of the more academic publishers I like only make their content available through this platform. And who know's what new players will get into the space in the future to give the legacy players a run for their money?
What I'm saying is that if book publishers could cooperate on this, just as the movie studios have done with UltraViolet, consumers wouldn't have to bet on which is the best delivery platform in the long-run. They would only have to purchase the license to the digital content once, but could then access it on whichever delivery platforms they wanted in the future (probably for an additional fee, but that fee would be much less than the cost of buying a whole new license for full price).
Would this work for the Bible software space? It's hard to say if you could get everyone to work together on it, but I think it makes a ton of sense and would provide a huge benefit for end-users. And if the secular media companies, which are both much bigger and notoriously vicious with each other, could cooperate together on UltraViolet, I don't know why it should be unthinkable for the Bible software companies and Christian publishers to cooperate on doing something similar. And though most of the decision lies with the publishers to make something like this work, Logos would be an extremely important player in it all since they are the leading delivery platform for digital Bible content.
0 -
And one more thing.......
Why would the publishers and content delivery platforms want to go along with something like this? Doesn't it seem like most of the benefit accrues to the end-users?
In the short-run, this may look like the case. However, the current system is less competitive and provides less consumers to end-users.
If history is any guide, technologies that increase the freedom of users and promote competition win in the long-run.
0 -
Sogol said:
Would this work for the Bible software space? It's hard to say if you could get everyone to work together on it, but I think it makes a ton of sense and would provide a huge benefit for end-users. And if the secular media companies, which are both much bigger and notoriously vicious with each other, could cooperate together on UltraViolet, I don't know why it should be unthinkable for the Bible software companies and Christian publishers to cooperate on doing something similar. And though most of the decision lies with the publishers to make something like this work, Logos would be an extremely important player in it all since they are the leading delivery platform for digital Bible content.
Here is why it is never gonna happen:
- Under the present system the publishers make more money
- Under the present system the platforms make more money
- Presently there are not enough users migrating to new platforms
- The Logos users are generally very happy with their choice of platform
- The non-Logos users are not willing to pay for the Logos platform
- Finally, it is all about the money.
Logos 7 Collectors Edition
0
