Logos March Madness: No Women?

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/572965#Comment_572965

I'm not a chauvinist, but I'd say the level of scholarship on men's works is far more superior than that of women; so I'd rather have this whole March Madness be about men's titles than women's titles (since they're not that many or they're co-authored with a man anyway [;)] ). Don't get me wrong, I own June Hunt's "Counseling Library" and other books written from a woman's perspective, but if anything, they should just do a "Woman's March Madness" for women only like those Base Packages for women only Logos has or used to have at some point (though I assume the competition would be very limited on choices). Also, I'm almost certain that women's titles wouldn't make it out of the first round anyway, so you might as well just call sales any time of the year and they'll give you the same discount or better (or similar). [:D] [:P] [A] I know, I know, the point is to include our precious women who are devoted to God in this "competition" but I assume is a marketing or politics type of thing to allow for more profit to be generated during this special sale and other sales promoted by Logos. So don't hate the players, hate the game or vice versa...or...I don't know, I should just keep quiet...LOL

DAL

Ps. To our beloved, faithful women authors and those women that want a sale on women's books -- Even though you were not included in this competition, WE STILL LOVE YOU AND APPRECIATE YOUR WORK! [Y]

Ken McGuire

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/573055#Comment_573055

As someone who has been amazed at the scholarship of Phylis Trible, Catherine Mowry LaCugna, Elizabeth Schusessler Fiorenza, and Elizabeth Johnson (just to rattle a few quick names off my head) your statement floors me. No, many of these are not available for Logos, but more of their work should be... They may not be popular with many of the likely voters for Logos March Madness, but they are top notch scholars in their fields.

SDG

Ken McGuire

Bruce Roth

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/573065#Comment_573065

I am wondering if anyone here or from Logos has a number of the available resources that are solely authored by a woman or co-authored. I assume it would have to be recent resources and probably a tiny percentage Of the total.

Someday we we may begin to see more resources by women, but it will orobably be glacial.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/573065#Comment_573065

As someone who has been amazed at the scholarship of Phylis Trible, Catherine Mowry LaCugna, Elizabeth Schusessler Fiorenza, and Elizabeth Johnson (just to rattle a few quick names off my head) your statement floors me. No, it is not available for Logos, but some of their work should be... They may not be popular with many of the likely voters for Logos March Madness, but they are top notch scholars in their fields.

SDG

Ken McGuire

I'm sorry (and you might think "where has this guy been?") but I've never heard of these ladies you've just mentioned. What do they write about? I'm barely familiar with June Hunt, Kay Arthur (which we seriously need her inductive series and Bible in Logos), Joyce Meyer and the rest listed in Logos I really don't know who they are,except for the brief biography Logos writes about the author. Most of the titles are about "Women's Bible Studies" on practical topics, nothing "meaty" like Carson, Beale, Keener, Blomberg, etc. Anyway, we still love them, though [:)]

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/573080#Comment_573080

DAL, you're cracking me up! Not to mention your interesting choice of words. Very apropo.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/573084#Comment_573084

DAL, you're cracking me up! Not to mention your interesting choice of words. Very apropo.

I'm glad I'm cracking you up! But, yeah, seriously, pardon my ignorance but I'm just not familiar with many women authors and what their expertise is and all the little details. I love you too...LOL [:P]

SineNomine

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/572948#Comment_572948

I vote for more theological diversity. It seems like this year it's more about Hyper-Calvinism vs semi-Hyper Calvinism vs Reformed Theology vs partial TULIP theology. The majority of it is weighted in the direction of one theological stream. Being a conservative, but committed Pentecostal that certainly leans in the direction of Arminian/Wesleyan/Pentecostal theology makes most of these matchups meaningless to me.

And for me as a Catholic it's even worse. Last year I could vote for Thomas a Kempis. This year the token Catholic is G. K. Chesterton, both figures who should and do appeal to many varieties of Protestants (and/including Anglicans). Don't get me wrong, Thomas a Kempis and G. K. Chesterton are great authors and I'm looking forward to the discounting of Chesterton's works later this spring, but...

Dan Francis

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/573090#Comment_573090

Dead (or live) straight white men seem to be the majority of those read in the North American Christian market. Because we are unfamiliar with other voices definitely doesn't mean their voices are not important to be heard and often VERY important to hear. I hope one day more voices will be heard in the Logos Library.

-Dan

Ken McGuire

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/573080#Comment_573080

I'm sorry (and you might think "where has this guy been?") but I've never heard of these ladies you've just mentioned.

Phylis Trible is a an American Baptist scholar of the Hebrew Bible who has written a couple books on stories that have been used to oppress women - namely God and the Rhetoric of Sexuality and Texts of Terror. She takes them apart and shows how they actually say much more than they have often been read. Her "best hits" are available in Logos, and I edited my post to include the link... She has described her study as being like Jacob wrestling with the Angel - refusing to let go of these texts until she receives a blessing...

Catherine Mowry LaCugna taught theology at Notre Dame and wrote one of the classics of late 20th Century Trinitarian theology - God For Us. While it does speak a bit about gender issues, this is hardly her main concern. It is rather how the nature of the God we worship shapes our Christian life... I almost cannot imagine it not being referenced in discussion of the Christian Doctrine of God...

Elizabeth Schuessler Fiorenza's magnum opus is In Memory of Her. It is a take on the early church - including new testament witness, showing the influence of women on it. The title is a reference to Mark 14:9, where the woman who anoints Jesus for burial has sadly even lost her name to history, in spite of being so lifted up by Jesus.

Elizabeth Johnson takes on the question of how the salvation of Women works in the classical Christological terms. What does the Patristic maxim "Not Assumed - Not Redeemed" - so important for the 4th/5th century debates - mean for us today? How has Jesus assumed WOMEN'S lives and experiences as well as men, so while a historical MALE, he is the "vere homo" we proclaim him to be and not just "vere aner".

They are all solid scholars, and of course, you need not agree with any of them. But they deserve to be treated with respect, and their concerns and perspective is needed to hear how we are heard by many in the world today.

SDG

Ken McGuire

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/573119#Comment_573119

I think Dan's point is well taken.

Guys like DAL (no offense, DAL) shouldn't be expected to seek books they've no particular need for. I only end up with a bunch of female scholars because their areas are the ones my rabbits seem to run off to ... archaeology, culture, background, etc.

So, a set of choices that appeal to DAL is certainly appropriate; it's just that Logos didn't see any observable need to appeal to other sizable and identyable Christian groups. I really don't know why that is (especially our new Catholic participants).

I do think in defense of the female variety of scholars, traditions die hard. Very hard. There was a time when I was the highest ranking female in a 70,000 person company and eventually the company said 'enough is enough' and demanded more diversity. I do foresee the day when Christianity is the last bastion of the racial/cultural divide, and so also the gender.

And before someone starts up on racial/cultural, I don't know how many native american churches I've been in, where my whitish hair was all there was to be had. Everyone's pretty much on their own to fight their own battles.

Robert M. Warren

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/573095#Comment_573095

straight white men seem to be the majority of those read in the North American Christian

"straight" ? You're kidding, right? Should I assume you think there should be more willingness among North Americans to read from crooked authors, or homosexual authors? And should the authors be repentant crooks?

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/573055#Comment_573055

I'm not a chauvinist, but I'd say the level of scholarship on men's works is far more superior than that of women;

So what ARE you? [:P] I would suggest that among academic books women's scholarship is far superior because it is so much harder for the women to get into a position where they can publish academic books. At the very least, i can state that the worst drivel I've been asked to read is all by men (of course, the vast majority of what I'm asked to read is by men). I suspect statistics would support my statements more strongly than yours. I have had the good fortunate of rarely being asked to judge a work by the gender of its author - the exception was Renita Weems' Just a Sister Away.

but I'm just not familiar with many women authors and what their expertise is

To correct your ignorance, I would assign the following authors - read nothing else until you're ready to "take back them fightin' words":

Roberta Bondi
Amy-Jill Levine
Benedicta Ward
Adele Berlin
Barbara Green (include female authors she has edited):
Johanna Mannley
Hildegard von Bingen
Carolyn Oslek
Sharyn Dowd
Mary Ann Beavis
Helen Waddell
Chava Weissler
Gail Ramshaw
Frederica Mathewes-Green

That should do as a start ... but if you're a slow learner I can double or triple the list - just ask. And, yes, these should all be in Logos.

Mitchell

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/573139#Comment_573139

Excellent list, MJ. I would add Maryanne Meye Thompson and Beverly Gaventa to it as well.

Did I miss something, or is literally every single contestant an old white man?

Dan Francis

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/573137#Comment_573137

straight white men seem to be the majority of those read in the North American Christian

"straight" ? You're kidding, right? Should I assume you think there should be more willingness among North Americans to read from crooked authors, or homosexual authors? And should the authors be repentant crooks?

I was quoting a lesbian author I had read once. Complaining on history and academia being based on "white dead straight men". I read Indecent Theology by Marcella Althaus-Reid and while I would't say I agree with her positions fully, I thought she had many valid points. One of Christianity's favourite ghost writers Mel White wrote many books for people likely Billy Graham and Jerry Falwell. We are all sinners saved by grace. Test what you read by scripture, hold on to the truth and discard the false.

-Dan

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/573140#Comment_573140

Did I miss something,

Phil Gons (Logos)

Thanks for the feedback. There's no intentional gender discrimination going on here. These are the criteria we used:

The author has lots of books available in Logos that we are able to discount up to 75% off. (Customers are disappointed when we don't have many options to choose from for each author.)
The author's books are among our bestselling products. (We want to ensure the sale has books that most people are going to be interested in.)
We pick 32 living authors and 32 dead authors.

Using those criteria, we didn't end up with any women authors in the running this year (or previous years?). We didn't intentionally include or exclude any authors based on their gender, race, age, marital status, nationality, denomination, theological positions, or any other discriminating factor.

We're absolutely not opposed to including women authors, but we just don't have many with a wide selection of popular products.

Would you prefer that we use a different set of criteria for next year? Should we not be concerned about the number of books an author has in Logos (that we can discount up to 75% off)? Should we ignore how well an author's books sell? Our current thinking is that this would compromise the overall effectiveness of the sale, but we're certainly open to rethinking things.

John Kaess

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/572948#Comment_572948

I agree concerning diversity, but I wouldn't limit it to gender diversity. I vote for more theological diversity. It seems like this year it's more about Hyper-Calvinism vs semi-Hyper Calvinism vs Reformed Theology vs partial TULIP theology. The majority of it is weighted in the direction of one theological stream. Being a conservative, but committed Pentecostal that certainly leans in the direction of Arminian/Wesleyan/Pentecostal theology makes most of these matchups meaningless to me. And it's been that way for about as long as I've been with Logos. But I know I'm in the minority and this isn't going to change, so I'll just take joy in the fact that my wallet will be happy at the end of the month.

Petty much exactly my impression. With the exception of Charles Wesley, those represented are almost exclusively leaning to the reformed/calvinist end of what should be a spectrum.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/573146#Comment_573146

Phil, I would expect that as your overall catalogue broadens, so will your sales. As I don't count on finding great buys, although sometimes I do, I really don't care what your criteria are if it keeps your income up.

Mitchell

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/573146#Comment_573146

Phil, thanks for the response. Part of the problem is that Logos' selection of authors for March Madness pretty accurately reflects who has the strongest and most respected voices among conservative evangelicals. As it happens, and quite regrettably, that group is almost exclusively white and male. The Kingdom of God is far bigger and far more diverse than one would think by looking at most pastors' bookshelves. It's not Logos' fault, and frankly I wouldn't put the onus on them to become a leader in changing those attitudes.

I would certainly applaud them for picking up the cause though. Perhaps a blog post highlighting resources from the majority world, or from women, or from minority theologians?

Mark Barnes

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/573146#Comment_573146

Would you prefer that we use a different set of criteria for next year?

As 'popularity' is one of your criteria, it might be an idea next year to have one quarter of the draw dedicated to authors that are popular within their individual streams, even if they're not popular over the whole Logos user base (i.e. within Catholicism/Pentecostalism/non-conservative Christianity).

Perhaps, within that part of the draw, you could give a certain number of places to different product managers.
By placing all these less popular options within the same segment of the draw, you will guarantee at least some of them will progress to better discounts. If you spread them through the draw they might all lose in the first round.
It probably wouldn't be a good idea to label that part of the draw differently. Christians often react to labels!

Alan Macgregor

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/573068#Comment_573068

I am wondering if anyone here or from Logos has a number of the available resources that are solely authored by a woman or co-authored. I assume it would have to be recent resources and probably a tiny percentage Of the total.

Someday we we may begin to see more resources by women, but it will orobably be glacial.

I'm not someone from Logos, but here (off the top of my head) is one Logos title written by a woman which I own and appreciate for its insights. It's one of the Paideia Commentaries on the New Testament: Mark by Mary Ann Beavis (Baker Academic, 2011).

Every blessing

Alan

Evan Boardman

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/573176#Comment_573176

Seeing everyone is throwing out their two cents, why not have it every month, that way no one is left out.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/573146#Comment_573146

Well, ignoring the title of the thread, I'd think most businesses would try to highlight any emerging markets they're seeking. I'd have to assume, as Mark seems to hint, all those product managers you've been investing in must mean you're wanting to expand .... plus Verbum .... and so on.

It's hard for me to imagine you couldn't find many Catholic authors, but maybe they're hard to find these days. On the female side (and here DAL will have to be quiet a minute) but I'd assume some of the more popular authors; you didn't seem to limit the choices to DAL's 'meaty' description but I suspect that was the primary requirement. Readers enhance spirituality many ways; I thought that was the Logos 'call to arms'.

Brother Mark

Adam, It is difficult for me to conceptualize a useful personal library predicated on resources written by either gender. I admit to being bewildered as to why gender is even a consideration when it comes to selecting a useful resource. Empirically, in order to fairly represent everyone, we'd necessarily have whole categories dedicated to authors who are amputees, or a shelf reserved for blind writers, and lets not forget a small contingent of left handed authors. These examples are precisely as valid as requiring gender based inclusion (or exclusion).

tom

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/573146#Comment_573146

Thanks for the feedback. There's no intentional gender discrimination going on here. These are the criteria we used:

The author has lots of books available in Logos that we are able to discount up to 75% off. (Customers are disappointed when we don't have many options to choose from for each author.)

The author's books are among our bestselling products. (We want to ensure the sale has books that most people are going to be interested in.)

We pick 32 living authors and 32 dead authors.

Using those criteria, we didn't end up with any women authors in the running this year (or previous years?). We didn't intentionally include or exclude any authors based on their gender, race, age, marital status, nationality, denomination, theological positions, or any other discriminating factor.

We're absolutely not opposed to including women authors, but we just don't have many with a wide selection of popular products.

Would you prefer that we use a different set of criteria for next year? Should we not be concerned about the number of books an author has in Logos (that we can discount up to 75% off)? Should we ignore how well an author's books sell? Our current thinking is that this would compromise the overall effectiveness of the sale, but we're certainly open to rethinking things.

Phil,

This goes back to what I have been saying for years. There should be more diversity among the resources that Logos sells. There needs to be more resources written by women (Ken and MJ listed some great authors). There needs to be larger theological diversity among the resources that Logos sells.

What you have listed here displays Logos' philosophy on what to sell. Currently, Logos sells what sells to its current user base. And it doesn't sell what doesn't sell to its current user base. The NIB is a good example (https://www.logos.com/product/8803/new-interpreters-bible). Right now, Logos does not have the user base to move this resource into production. And I personally do not know of a person in my theological circles who does not have at lest one volume on this series on his or her bookshelf.

It sounds like from your post (http://community.logos.com/forums/t/80659.aspx) that Logos wants to offer a "wide array of theological perspectives." In order to do this, I believe Logos is going to have to take a gamble and produce some resources that they might not have enough customers to start off (like the NIB and authors like Elizabeth Schusessler Fiorenza). Doing this I believe will expand your customer base.

tom

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/573219#Comment_573219

Adam, It is difficult for me to conceptualize a useful personal library predicated on resources written by either gender. I admit to being bewildered as to why gender is even a consideration when it comes to selecting a useful resource. Empirically, in order to fairly represent everyone, we'd necessarily have whole categories dedicated to authors who are amputees, or a shelf reserved for blind writers, and lets not forget a small contingent of left handed authors. These examples are precisely as valid as requiring gender based inclusion (or exclusion).

Because they bring a different perspective to the table. Ken listed several good examples in an earlier post.

tom

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/573095#Comment_573095

Dead (or live) straight white men seem to be the majority of those read in the North American Christian market. Because we are unfamiliar with other voices definitely doesn't mean their voices are not important to be heard and often VERY important to hear. I hope one day more voices will be heard in the Logos Library.

-Dan

Amen

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/573219#Comment_573219

Brother Mark ... can I smilingly answer your bewilderment with a few key points (which you probably won't agree with but maybe worth considering).

(1) An author this week pointed this out to me, which should have been obvious but wasn't. If we presume believing and maybe church participation is a key to eternal life, then heaven will likely be heavily populated by women. I've often wondered why most churches I've been in, whether new plants, or dieing ones were 'women'. I suspect it has to do with how they (we) think? Or maybe the message? Or what? But anyone seeking the Kingdom for others eventually has to confront why gender DOES play a part. Don't know why. Even the early missions among the native americans, where 'western' values wasn't an issue, 'women' were the primary travelers to the Kingdom.

(2) I've admittedly always been somewhat frustrated with forum members and their 'libraries'. I've always thought 'what's good for Christians' should be the criticality. Not what's good for me. I suppose I work off multiple platforms so 'me' is not so critical. I have the same philosphy at Walmart. But I'd assume Logos 'could' throw a few bones to the female 'children' in Tyre and Sidon?

Bruce Roth

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/573245#Comment_573245

Phil,

As commented above the vast majority of resources are coming out of the reformed camp. Maybe in conjunction with the current mix you could offer the same type of March Madness sale on the Verbum side of the fence. And include resources from the growing Eastern Orthodox resources.

Graham Owen

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/573146#Comment_573146

Would you prefer that we use a different set of criteria for next year?

Perhaps not for March Madness but it would be good if you could promote some of the less popular authors through a sale at some point as this might help turn them into more popular authors. If you could do this as a series of collections, say 10 books from 10 different authors, designed to 'introduce' us to these 'new' authors I think that it would be really useful.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/573216#Comment_573216

On the female side (and here DAL will have to be quiet a minute)

[:#] [O] [;)]

SineNomine

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/573146#Comment_573146

The author has lots of books available in Logos that we are able to discount up to 75% off. (Customers are disappointed when we don't have many options to choose from for each author.)

The author's books are among our bestselling products. (We want to ensure the sale has books that most people are going to be interested in.)

We pick 32 living authors and 32 dead authors.

I would love to see an additional sale using similar criteria with the additional criterion that these should be authors of potential interest to Verbum users. So you're looking at, principally, Catholic and Eastern Orthodox authors (ergo including Early Church Fathers), but also (perhaps) Oxford Movement and similar.

Another good option would be an additional sale, also in the March Madness format, where the criteria include "The author was not listed in March Madness this year."

Either potential sale would have the practical effect of exposing less popular and perhaps undersold authors, which is why such a sale should not replace March Madness.

George Somsel

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/573145#Comment_573145

I'm sorry to be required to appear to be a male chauvinist pig, but I've noticed that when I encounter women authors on biblical topics they appear to almost exclusively deal with women in the bible and with such topics which really aren't very substantive. There are some exceptions. I'm sorry, but women appear to be mostly concerned with women—which I find rather cliquish. When women start to sincerely engage in the substance of the texts rather than being concerned with how women appear, then I will take them seriously.

Ken McGuire

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/573324#Comment_573324

I'm sorry to be required to appear to be a male chauvinist pig, but I've noticed that when I encounter women authors on biblical topics they appear to almost exclusively deal with women in the bible and with such topics which really aren't very substantive. There are some exceptions. I'm sorry, but women appear to be mostly concerned with women—which I find rather cliquish. When women start to sincerely engage in the substance of the texts rather than being concerned with how women appear, then I will take them seriously.

Like you I do get frustrated at all the hyphenated theologies that seem to talk as if they need not interact with others. That is why I made the list I did, and picked some of the women I did. They are all people who picked important themes and seem to acknowledge that they are interacting with what others have said before - even as they critique it.

And as frustrated as I sometimes DO get, if (when?) I listen to them, often I can hear a bit why they had to be separate. As awkward as it is, in the christian life God has seen fit to give us two ears and one month so we can listen to each other - even those we don't want to. Like you, I long for that day when we can be fully open without shame before each other - but we are not there yet.

Gary Osborne

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/573148#Comment_573148

I agree concerning diversity, but I wouldn't limit it to gender diversity. I vote for more theological diversity. It seems like this year it's more about Hyper-Calvinism vs semi-Hyper Calvinism vs Reformed Theology vs partial TULIP theology. The majority of it is weighted in the direction of one theological stream. Being a conservative, but committed Pentecostal that certainly leans in the direction of Arminian/Wesleyan/Pentecostal theology makes most of these matchups meaningless to me. And it's been that way for about as long as I've been with Logos. But I know I'm in the minority and this isn't going to change, so I'll just take joy in the fact that my wallet will be happy at the end of the month.

Petty much exactly my impression. With the exception of Charles Wesley, those represented are almost exclusively leaning to the reformed/calvinist end of what should be a spectrum.

Yep, and all I can do is let out a sigh. It's not going to change. I've discussed this issue with high up people in Logos in the past and I've come to just expect this going forward. There are several highly important non-Reformed resources that Logos doesn't even carry yet (while other bible software companies do carry them) and I'm at a loss just scratching my head. I'm told over and over again there's not a pro-Reformed/Calvinist lean, but my eyes tell me something completely different.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/573324#Comment_573324

Now, George. First, no need to be sorry. And I sure hope you don't feel there's a requirement for pig-appearing as you put it.

But I've noticed that when I encounter men authors on biblical topics they appear to almost exclusively deal with men in the bible and with such topics which really aren't very substantive. There are some exceptions. I'm sorry, but men appear to be mostly concerned with men—which I find rather cliquish. When men start to sincerely engage in the substance of the texts rather than being concerned with how men appear, then I will take them seriously.

I couldn't resist. If I remember correctly someone on the forum is rather strongly engaged in the importance of masculine pronouns, etc. as absolutely critical. And as you know, I'm in complete agreement.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/573324#Comment_573324

I'm sorry to be required to appear to be a male chauvinist pig, but I've noticed that when I encounter women authors on biblical topics they appear to almost exclusively deal with women in the bible and with such topics which really aren't very substantive. There are some exceptions. I'm sorry, but women appear to be mostly concerned with women—which I find rather cliquish. When women start to sincerely engage in the substance of the texts rather than being concerned with how women appear, then I will take them seriously.

George, I know that I could come up with a list of women authors that fulfill your expectations. But you are also now required to read only books by authors on my list until you learn your opinion is hog-wash, appropriate only for a pig.[6]

Sorry George, but after you called yourself a pig I just HAD to call it hog-wash[:D]

Josh

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/573146#Comment_573146

I do not see an issue with Logos not having any women in the tournament. Their choices had no sexist intent.

However, I do have an issue with affirmative action. Affirmative action is a form of politically correct sexism. You cannot stop discrimination (if it is occurring) by discriminating.

If someone's gender (race, etc.) truly does not matter, then why is this such a big deal to people? If Logos adds a couple women into the mix next year only because they want to appear like they are not sexist - then they would be practicing sexism.

Bruce Dunning

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/573352#Comment_573352

I do not see an issue with Logos not having any women in the tournament. Their choices had no sexist intent.

I agree.