www.faithlifetv.com
Faithlife Tv is now streaming live on the web and Roku.
[:)]
Cool.
What is Faithlife TV? I clicked on the play and I saw a short message, then a book commercial, then a Lifeway video. What is the content and idea of Faithlife TV?
Seems to be a way to highlight Logos Mobile-education
Faithlife TV is an experiment in a different kind of Christian television. The segments are shorter than a half-hour -- sometimes just a few minutes -- and it's a variety of different content types. We'll be adding (and maybe removing) segments, and using it to showcase some of our video productions, including samples of Logos Mobile Ed classes.
At the moment there's not enough content to publish a schedule, like a traditional TV channel, so it's just a multi-hour loop.
Your feedback is welcome!
Maybe you clarified this in your lecture, but on the slides you presented a false dichotomy of credentials and competence. I realize that some people go to school, never study, barely pass their classes and get a degree. This does not mean that everyone who has credentials is incompetent. If you are concerned about someone's credentials simply ask for a transcript. Credentials are independent verification of a person's efforts at preparation and training. For example, when I was in college a student enrolled who said he had been studying Hebrew faithfully on his own for over a year. He requested to skip the first semester of Hebrew. He was allowed to do so, but after a few classes he had to drop out because even though he had the best of intentions in over a year's time he had not been able to learn enough basic Hebrew to keep up with second semester students at the college. This is the same reason that we have accreditation for schools: independent verification of their standards.
You are correct in concluding that technology will change the landscape of education. However, there will always been a need for formal academic institutions. I would encourage you to think in a different direction. Try to discover ways that Logos can capitalize on the needs of academic institutions to evolve with technology. If your vision is to replace seminary with Logos Mobile Education ( and I don't know if that is your vision or not), I fear you will not succeed. However, providing schools with a technology resource they can use to take their classes mobile could be very profitable for Logos.
I know it is hard to read tone in text so let me close with some clarification. Although I completely disagree with your views on education, I love your Bible software and I am thankful for it daily. You have enabled me to assemble a library that I could have never afforded in print. I use Logos ever day, most days for several hours. So please don't take my criticism personally. It is meant to be constructive. I took time to write this while I could have been sleeping because I care about you and the future of Logos.
May God bless you. I know he has blessed me through you.
Dear Kevin,
A well thought out argument, well put.
Rev Tony Keating
Once playing, I have an annoying dialogue box in the middle :
Why does this website need to store data on my machine?
Why does the 'deny' button not dismiss the dialogue, even at the worthwhile expense of no video. In the mean time, is it storing data?
Your feedback is welcome! I have some feedback about your idea of quitting college. I think it is a very bad idea and I wish you would seriously think about retracting it before someone takes your advice. I don't know if your lecture is available somewhere online or not. I only read the powerpoint slides. So I may be missing part of your argument. However, based upon your talking points on the slides you appear to be overly skeptical about the nature and value of institutional based education. You are certainly not alone in your view. I have never heard so much chatter about not going to college as I have in the past year. I think one of the main problems, and this seems to be part of your argument, is that people have confused data with knowledge. The fact that more data is available to us now through the digital revolution does not make expert guides dispensable.
Spoken like a man about to complete his doctorate.
Although my reasons are not Bob's (I haven't watched the video presentation you reference), I state unequivocally that no one, ever, has benefited from attaining an advanced degree in theology. It simply isn't the way YHWH works. No MDiv. no ThM, no DMin, no PhD has ever helped anyone better comprehend YHWH or assisted in properly conveying His purpose. It has never happened...prophecy precludes it.
The fact that more data is available to us now through the digital revolution does not make expert guides dispensable. Data collection and sorting will never offer meaningful answers no matter how complex the algorithm, because the answers we seek in life and ministry are not quantitative but qualitative. I need to know more than what, or how many, I need to know "what does it mean?"
Based on your comments, I think you have wandered from your proper path...you should be seeking to attain rabbinic credentialing--they are the only ones who can expertly guide you to properly understand "what does it mean". At least that's what they say, though Someone begs to differ (Mt. 15:14; Mt. 23:16, 24). But the problem is that all such guides are blind. Isa. 42:16-25 goes into the wherefore in some detail. A zillion guides at a trillion universities can't resolve the problem(s) that causes the blindness to be ingrained. That can actually only be resolved by time. We're getting close.
No MDiv. no ThM, no DMin, no PhD has ever helped anyone better comprehend YHWH or assisted in properly conveying His purpose.
I state unequivocally that no one, ever, has benefited from attaining an advanced degree in theology.
Based on your comments, I think you have wandered from your proper path...you should be seeking to attain rabbinic credentialing
A zillion guides at a trillion universities can't resolve the problem(s) that causes the blindness to be ingrained. That can actually only be resolved by time. We're getting close.
I may have misunderstood you, Kevin. I assumed that the conversation was on Biblical and theological education. I've mentioned before that I have a M.Ed. in Education. I'm not against the education process--not at all. I'm not against advanced degrees. A few weeks ago I was asking on the forum for recommendations for Masters programs in Biblical languages. I might pursue one at some point in the future. But on the subject of theology, I don't think they are helpful...they may well be detrimental. If Bob was suggesting colleges and universities will shut down because of e-programs, that's silly (again, I don't know what he said, as I didn't watch the video). There's no question that the best education is self-directed (I suspect this idea is behind what Bob is saying), but it needs to be directed, motivated, and inspired. Not all people are sufficiently self-motivated and self-directed to get the job done properly, so they need external prods like a teacher or professor nudging them along. On that point I agree with you, and it is clearly all the more important when critical knowledge and skills are the focus. I obviously can see the need for licensing that requires the ability to meet certain standards. But those are all in the areas of simple human knowledge.
Where "meaning of the Bible" is concerned, I don't think any degrees other than language degrees (helpful but not necessary) can provide useful insight. Seminaries CAN boost fundamental knowledge of elemental information, to be sure. Someone who has to read the Bible continuously for class will be better off than someone who isn't reading it at all or only sporadically. But I don't think "meaning" will be effectively engaged through such a program. I don't think it is even possible, for reasons given in prophecy. I could say that such programs are better than nothing, but because they can and do convey a sense of "proper understanding" when such is not really true, I think they can do more harm than good.
There is an exodus just ahead. Jer. 16:14, 15. In the first one, next to no one was able to survive the process because of their inability to slough off Egypt and leave it behind (Heb. 3:16-19). There will be a similar condition in play in this next exodus. Those fished for (equivalent to the under 20 crowd) Jer. 16:16, will survive the transition, but those hunted for (those who are unable to make the transition because they are just too steeped in the ways of error) will effectively "die in the wilderness". I think (with reason gleaned from prophecy) that the academic alphabet soup process is a process wrapped in Egyptian garb. Is everything hopeless then for those who've undergone that process? Not necessarily--but I would certainly suggest figuring out how to fit through the eye of a needle.
I may have misunderstood you, Kevin.
I'm not against advanced degrees.
Here is the article in CT that led me to Bob's comments:
http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2014/march/bible-in-original-geek.html?paging=off
Here is Bob's presentation:
http://www.slideshare.net/BobPritchett/how-to-quit-college-and-get-away-with-it
Unless Bob wants to clarify or interject something, I don't want to use the Logos forums to debate education in general. My intent was to challenge Bob and his readers to critically think about his position, which as I understand it, I vehemently disagree with.
I need to get back to work now so I can make more money to buy more Logos books to support Bob so he can continue to encourage people to drop out of my classes. [ humor intended; sarcasm only meant in fun ] God bless
I like it so far. Between this and BibleScreen, our TVs have something worthwhile to display.
BTW, any chance of Chromecast support?
Faithlife TV is an experiment in a different kind of Christian television. The segments are shorter than a half-hour -- sometimes just a few minutes -- and it's a variety of different content types. We'll be adding (and maybe removing) segments, and using it to showcase some of our video productions, including samples of Logos Mobile Ed classes. At the moment there's not enough content to publish a schedule, like a traditional TV channel, so it's just a multi-hour loop. Your feedback is welcome!
Great idea Bob! Love it
I'd love to see this available for apple tv as well! Airplay works, but it would be nice to have it available as an onboard app!
I have some feedback about your idea of quitting college. I think it is a very bad idea and I wish you would seriously think about retracting it before someone takes your advice.
I know this is off topic, but this is a subject I feel strongly about, and I wanted to let you know I'd read your feedback.
I am a hug fan of learning and of education. Logos exists to equip people to study for themselves, and to help them teach others. Biblical studies is the discipline in which more adults continue to study than any other.
I think it's tragic, though, that we're confusing credentials and competence. I'm not saying they don't often appear together -- they do -- but I believe we're living in a time when "a college degree" means less than it ever did, but where "never went to college" is a bigger impediment to career placement than ever. And that's because we're valuing the credential more than actual education.
Smart employers have already figured this out, especially in high-skill fields like computer science. Nobody (including Google) cares if you have a degree or what your grades were, etc. in computer science. It's so easy to test for the skills, to evaluate your Stack Exchange score, look at your GitHub profile, etc. We see lots of people with master's degrees in comp sci who can't code, and lots with no degree, or education in another area, who are excellent.
The tragedy is that our national fetish for 'a college diploma' (as opposed to 'a good education') is leading us to load students up with an average of $23,000 post-graduation debt (often much more), often acquired in pursuit of "whatever you'd like to study!", sending them out into the world unprepared and financially underwater.
As an employer I've had to facilitate wage garnishment from employees with unpaid student loans. When I see someone ten years out of college working at an entry-level job with multiple kids to support having their wages garnished for thousands in student loans to pay off their degree in French Literature... it makes me very upset.
We, as a society, have conspired to trap these people in debt. We've wasted their time, misdirected their energies, and sold them a lie.
I don't think all education has to be practical; it's okay to study French literature. I understand the value of a liberal arts degree.
I just don't think it's smart to tell people to study whatever they want, that we'll loan them all the money they need, and then deliver the low-quality education that most schools now offer (because they've watered down standards to allow 'everyone to go to college!' instead of just the small percentage of top students we sent 50+ years ago).
Credentials are independent verification of a person's efforts at preparation and training.
I'd suggest that credentials would be more useful if they were an independent verification of a person's knowledge and skills, rather than preparation and training. Because you can get an awful lot of credentials through little more than 'seat-time' nowadays. And, thanks digital testing, online profiles, and the greater transparency the Internet brings, it's now possible to get more useful, accurate credentials than 'I got through the higher-ed system'.
At Logos 20 years ago we studied resumes carefully and asked a lot of questions about your education, classes, GPA, etc.
Now (for software developers) we research candidates online, do live 'watch you type' coding exercises via a shared web site, read their code contributions to online projects, and do detailed, technical interviews via phone, Skype video, and in person. This consistently outperforms diploma/GPA as a success indicator.
For editorial staff we have a multi-page grammar test and two real article submissions that need to be proofread in a short time period, We read blog posts and writing samples. There is very little correlation between having an English degree and the ability to pass our English grammar/editing/writing tests. (Sure, some people with English degrees do well on the test -- but many don't. And many pass with education in other disciplines.)
Interviewing, reviewing past work, and hearing about past experience is also a better screening tool for general skills. In my experience, a good answer to "What book are you reading now?" beats knowing you had a 3.5 GPA and got a B.A. Because the people I want to hire (and work with, and talk with, etc.) are always reading a good book now, whether they have a degree or not, and people who aren't reading a good book now probably aren't that curious / energetic / interesting / productive / growing / learning as we want, even if they've got a stack of degrees.
I know I'm making generalizations, and I will admit that both of my children are at college right now -- because I can (so far!) afford to send them without saddling them with debt. I don't think we should shut down (all) the colleges. I do think that we should reconsider "everybody should go to college!", and I think that (for the first time in centuries) the kids who previously could get the most from college -- the smartest, most curious, who had to go to college just for access to the knowledge and challenge they needed -- can now (thanks to the Internet and other technology) get all they need and more outside college.
100 years ago, we sent the Top 10% (?) of high school students to college, and now it's where we send 68% of high school graduates.
OLD WAY (rough guesses)
90-100%: College
30-90%: Apprentice, trades, etc.
0-30%: Little progress / education / skills
CURRENT WAY:
33-100%: College
0-33%: Little progress / education / skills
PROPOSED WAY:
90-100%: Self-education -- these autodidacts can save a fortune better educate themselves
70-90%: College for top candidates who need structured environment for learning
30-70%: Trade and technical schools
10-30%: Formal apprenticeships, highly focused trades programs
0-10%: Little progress
Disclaimer: I just made all that up. :-) But it's a summary of what I think would be more useful / cost-effective / not-debt-burdening.
Thanks for the kind words about Logos... I hope you won't mind that quite a few college-quitters (myself included!) were involved in creating it. :-)
-- Bob
There's no question that the best education is self-directed (I suspect this idea is behind what Bob is saying), but it needs to be directed, motivated, and inspired. Not all people are sufficiently self-motivated and self-directed to get the job done properly, so they need external prods like a teacher or professor nudging them along. On that point I agree with you,
On that point I agree with the both of you.
I don't recall ever hearing Bob or Dale Pritchett say they wanted to abolish or compete with higher education. There are many people who desire a specialized Biblical education but they are not able to go off to seminary. Logos Mobile Education fills that need.
Bob, is right on! This has been a problem that seminaries have been seeing for years. It will continue to be a problem for a couple reasons. First, churches are not able to pay the required pay for pastors who come out of seminaries. Second, How are we going to raise pastor from churches that are not economically stable. Another problem their is a slimmer chance that when you graduate that you will get a job in church unlike other careers like programming, business, engineering, etc. I believe Mobile Ed can help fill a void, but their needs to be some type of assessment involved. For instance, their needs to be test quizzes and papers to really see the benefit in this program. This means their needs to payed instructors , which may be beyond the scope of the program than just presenters.
Interesting. Can't say that I can argue with it.
What I would like to see is someone come up with a fool-proof methodology for teaching critical thinking/problem solving skills. I have seen many college grads who lack them. Sad.
Wanna see a great movie illustrating how far one can go without formal education beyond high school? Check out Something_the_Lord_Made. True story and well worth purchasing. Not specifically Christian but certainly contains a lot of Christian values. Just happened to watch it again last night with the wife ... p.s. keep the Kleenex close by (very close by)!
FaithLife TV looks interested! Just learned about it tonight.
Two bits of feedback:
1. Either launch a mobile app for it or add it into the BibleScreen or FaithLife apps. I'd love to be able to watch this on my iPhone and iPad.
2. It'd also be great to be able to stream this via Proclaim. While during big events, BibleScreen would be better to stream before services, for Wednesday Night Bible Studies, etc., streaming FaithLife TV before services would be educational and informative.
Thanks!
I agree about the assessments with Mobile Ed. If there was a way to automate these using Self Tests in Logos, and have some form of "accreditation" or "CEU" standard backing them, that'd be great. There could obviously be different price points for "unaccredited" and "accredited" versions, but I believe if there was a way to use Mobile Ed for a basic, accredited education, it might bridge a needed gap.
I haven't seen Bob's report, so I'm not too sure what all the details about it are, as well as why it was really brought up here (unless it was aired on FaithLife TV), but here's my thoughts...
1. I'm still going to Bible College and seminary. I've talked with some other people in the ministry my age that are totally refusing Bible college, seminary, and any formal training since they believe they can just get up on a pulpit, open their Bible and start preaching. While God does ultimately give us the message, to me, it's still better to get some solid ministry training. I want to master the Biblical languages as much as I can, and I want to soak up as much as I can learn in Bible College and seminary that I can.
2. However, Bible College and seminary shouldn't be the "end all" in learning. Instead, it should be the beginning, the "launching pad". Bible College and seminary has challenged me to do plenty of my own personal learning out of the classroom as much as in the classroom. It's challenged me to read books on my Biblical topics of interest, broaden/deepen my knowledge and understanding, as well as seek as much extracurricular information as well. For Greek and Hebrew, I'm not stopping with what I learn in seminary. I'm wanting to watch the Logos videos that are out there, attend other online classes and webinars off campus, read books, listen to podcasts, etc. I think one thing Bob is saying that some people feel that the college classroom is it. All learning is done in the classroom. This shouldn't be the case. We should be learning as much as we can out of class that we can in class.
3. Additionally, colleges themselves need improvement in the way they organize their classes, and ensure that students walk out of the class with more than just head information. They need practical ministry experience as well. All the seminary training in the world doesn't prepare students for hands on real hardcore ministry work. There needs to be a balance between conveying the information students need with the practical applications that allow them to utilize the information in the field. I've touched on some of this in my report here:
http://www.stilltruth.com/simple-college-the-process-driven-college/
Just a few random musings on my part. :-)
I wanted to let you know I'd read your feedback
Thanks Bob, I appreciate that. I agree with about 95% of what you wrote in your last post. However, I'm still having a difficult time making the leap from your criticisms of the current education system (which I agree with) to your recommendation to quite college. Also, I read a completely different tone in your slides.
I'm with you at this point. It is too easy to get a degree at many institutions and as a result people have "credentials" in the sense of mere letters beside their name. If this is the scenario you are referencing in your criticism of credentials, then I agree.
Nobody (including Google) cares if you have a degree or what your grades were, etc. in computer science. It's so easy to test for the skills, to evaluate your Stack Exchange score, look at your GitHub profile, etc. We see lots of people with master's degrees in comp sci who can't code, and lots with no degree, or education in another area, who are excellent.
I believe this is somewhat unique to the computer science industry. There are few other industries where you can "get away with" dropping out of college.
As you stated we are living in a time
where "never went to college" is a bigger impediment to career placement than ever
I'd suggest that credentials would be more useful if they were an independent verification of a person's knowledge and skills, rather than preparation and training.
I would suggest that a better way forward is to encourage institutions to raise their standards of education, instead of encouraging people to abandon institutions. I believe that a solid education forms the foundation that you build upon for the rest of your life. I am a life long learner. I am finishing my 4th degree ( actually worked hard and studied, no seat warmer here [;)] ). When I finish, I'm looking forward to reading some good books in other fields of study.
I hope you won't mind that quite a few college-quitters (myself included!) were involved in creating it. :-)
May God continue to bless you in what appears to be the rapid growth and expansion of Logos. I'm very excited about recent developments, especially the new packages. If you ever need an endorsement in any capacity give me a call. On a scale of 1 to 10, Logos is a 14! (IMHO)
Actually, Kevin, most companies DO follow Bob's thinking (and I'm including small companies as well as the larger ones). 'Promote from within.' Effectively, 'college' is simply an initial filter which college students (more likely parents) are well aware of but companies, far less. The large company I worked for had top execs with no college ... promote from within all the way back to stocking shelves. A 'PhD' was death on your career and a masters, best to not mention. Results was all that mattered (and matters).
My impression about American college primarily after WWII and the GI bill, was a social program to convert large numbers of rural men released from the military, into an expanding economy. My dad went from a wheat field preacher to a master's degree preacher. I guess the congregations were impressed, but only to get an interview. After that the question was 'results' (what preachers actually do).
The literal 'training' in college is primarily social ... kids meeting kids and adults. Maturation.
Today the Army still fulfills much of that need and so I've met many parents that view the military in the same perspective of 'social-ing' their kids. And indeed the Army gets it done.
If you ever need an endorsement in any capacity give me a call. On a scale of 1 to 10, Logos is a 14! (IMHO)
An endorsement would be great. https://www.logos.com/endorsements
The literal 'training' in college is primarily social
I could say more, but it would be more of the same. In short, I value formal education. I would encourage everyone to pursue as much as they are able and then to build upon it for the rest of their life. To everyone who wishes to skip college or drop out, I wish them the best. Perhaps they will be exceptional and rise from clerk to CEO; it's possible, but not normal. As for me, I just a normal guy so I really benefited from my education.
I would simply add one more caution, not specifically to Denise or Bob, but to everyone who may decide to engage this subject. Whenever you post something on the internet, it is available to the world. I certainly knew Bob and others would read my comments when I wrote them and so I attempted to focus on the issues and be as gracious as I could. So whatever your views on the value or lack thereof of education, just keep in mind that people will be reading your comments who have devoted their lives, or at least a major portion of their lives, to educating men and women in the hope of sharpening their skills for ministry and advancing the kingdom of God.
Love the idea, if it takes off I would like to see it available on Apple TV.
I applaud Faithlife TV and all mobile education available for pastors through technology. (Most seminaries also now offer M.Div. programs in which the majority of study can be done online.). I realize many pastors do not have an opportunity to go to seminary, and God still uses them effectively. Better to be filled with the Spirit and uneducated than educated and not be filled with the Spirit. I once heard a great bishop say, "Pastors, do what it takes to get the best education that you can. But remember this, I had rather a preacher say, 'I seen God's glory', and he saw it, than to say, 'I saw God's glory', but he really saw nothing!"
All that said, the simple truth is that there is NO SUBSTITUTE for a quality seminary education. The Church will be poorer the fewer seminary trained clergy who pastor. It is worth any sacrifice to go to seminary if at all possible. A call to preach is a call to prepare. The easy way, and the short cut, is seldom the best way.
I have taken a number of Coursera courses and really learned a lot from them so I can see the value of online education. You can tell from the discussion groups that student's backgrounds and ability to comprehend the material are all over the place. There are two caveats that I think we need to take seriously with regard to biblical education.
1. If you are spending lots of money on this type of education you presumably want to use your knowledge to help others. This probably means you will be looking for a job and churches aren't there (yet). If you look at job listings for pastors almost all require a Bible college or seminary degree, or often specifically an MDiv.
2. Just because you have taken a course online doesn't mean you've mastered the material. At best, the difference is that you've spent less money than someone who went to seminary. I guess Bob could write a comprehensive exam that would test people's biblical and theological knowledge but as mentioned it's hard to test worldview. Memorised facts are not enough when it comes to being a shepherd. I've found that face-to-face discussions with those who know more than me has always been the best way for me to learn.
I can envision a future where people study together in cohorts using this material (iron sharpens iron) but some will always be better than others. The top 10% will always be the top 10% and 50% of all students will be below average! Some are called to teach and will be judged more strictly, implying that life lived is as important or more so than knowledge. How do we learn in a disciple manner from a TV screen? In sum, I think we must do education in community and although seminaries have many shortcomings the best are doing that. I wish Logos all the best and hope that people can come together in the same room and really grow together in Christ using online material.
