In order for someone to have a "better" or more comprehensive interpretation of the book of Revelation do you or should you have a very good working knowledge of Daniel or does it really matter?
Ezekiel.
Guess that would depend upon your view of eschatology [^o)]. Dispensationalists would say, "Absolutely." Not sure what others would say [:D]
"better" or more comprehensive interpretation
Peace to all! In a rush! Hello and Good-Bye! *smile*
Besides that good suggestion, it might be helpful to read various books about the culture of the time -- some of the apocalyptic outlook and genre of the time
Edit: withdrew my original suggestion because I read the situation wrongly! Too much of a hurry! *smile*
@ Milford,
That seems like quite the book. A fish and a bike?
@ Denise.
Why Ezekiel?
Absolutely. You will need a good working knowledge of Ezekiel, Daniel, and prophecy in general, as well as a thorough understanding of Exodus, and the creational covenant thinking of Genesis. You'll need to understand the OT temple, priesthood, and liturgy. And you will need to understand the relationship between apocalyptic literature and the unresolved narrative of the OT, and how that narrative ultimately finds resolution in Jesus.
There are lots of good commentaries that will help you make connections with the OT literature, e.g. Beale (NIGTC) does that very well.
Milkman, I just can not imagine starting up at Apocalypse chapter 4, without a jewish in-depth knowledge of Ezekiel. Certainly some time in aramaic Israel (without the side trip to Sedona).
But absent that, Beale / D.A. Carson 'Commentary on the New Testament Use of the Old Testment' logosres:comntuseot;ref=Page.p_1086;off=4539 :
'In a somewhat similar vein, Goulder (1981: 343–49) has argued that broad portions of Ezekiel have been the dominant influence on at least twelve major sections of Revelation (Rev. 4; 5; 6:1–8; 6:12–7:1; 7:2–8; 8:1–5; 10:1–7; 14:6–12; 17:1–6; 18:9–24; 20:7–10; 21:22). Goulder (1981: 353–54) observes that these uses of Ezekiel are a dominant influence on the structure of Revelation, since they are placed to a marked extent in the same order as they occur in Ezekiel itself (though he proposes a liturgical rather than a literary explanation to account better for the parallel order of Ezekiel and Revelation). Virtually identical to Goulder, though not positing a liturgical background, is Vogelgesang, who has gone so far as to conclude that John used Ezekiel as the model for the book’s overall structure and this “is the key to understanding the message of the book altogether” (1985: 394 [see also 16, 66–71]). Others have also recognized Ezekiel’s influence, especially in Rev. 20–22, where the order of events appears to have been taken from Ezek. 37–48. The broad structure of the new Jerusalem in Rev. 21:12–22:5 is based on the vision of Ezek. 40–48, which prophesies the pattern of the final temple (chaps. 40–44), as well as the arrangement of the eschatological city and divisions of the land around the temple compound (chaps. 45–48). Revelation 21:12–22:5 further interprets the yet future fulfillment of Ezekiel by collapsing temple, city, and land into one end-time picture portraying the one reality of God’s communion with his people.
Peace, Milkman! *smile* I went back and looked at that again and am withdrawing it as a possible reference. What I was hoping to share was a good book on the Judaism of the Second Temple and some of that culture's apocalyptic views that flavoured our New Testament Background! Will try again tomorrow when I'm not in quite the rush I have been in tonight. Sorry!
@ Milford, no worries. Thanks.
Look at this set Milkman. You may find it interesting. I have the paper volumes at home, waiting on the digital set. https://www.logos.com/product/37737/daniel-and-revelation-committee-series
@ Lynden.
Sorry for my ignorance, but I'm not sure about The Seventh Day Adventist group. Not quite sure how to say this, so please forgive me one and all. Aren't the SDA group heretical?
Not looking for a theological battle, I'd probably lose, but maybe some polite direction.
humbly yours
mm.
@ Denise,
I have Richard Bauckham's The Climax of Prophecy. It seems that your quote from Beale & Carson is dead on. He in so many words says that the Revelation must be read with Jewish sources (extra-biblical) and OT sources together.
Aren't the SDA group heretical?
Being one I say no. [;)] But that does make me speak from a biased perspective. Look at the qualifications of the authors (might find some on wikipedia) or the areas of speciality.
Peruse some of these articles and see for yourself. www.logos.com/sda many of the authors have Phd's from recognized universities. Run a search in your library on some of their names and see what comes up. Search Updated search for more accurate results.
@ Lynden,
I didn't realize that you were a pastor in the SDA church. I looked up your Faithlife profile after I wrote it. No offence.
@ Milkman. None taken. By the way I use my wife's pic as my avatar.
LOL.
On Logos forums - no one is a heretic. We aren't sufficiently united to be able to agree on the definition of a heretic.[;)]
@ Denise. Why Ezekiel?
While a knowledge of many elements of the OT are necessary, Zeke is the most referenced of all.
As has been stated, we may not all agree on what is heretical. But I will say this. Seventh Day Adventists are in my opinion well within the bounds of Orthodoxy. They believe in the Bible as God's Word. They believe in the Trinity, and the full deity of Jesus Christ. They believe in the incarnation, the atonement of the cross, and resurrection of Jesus Christ. They believe that salvation is by grace through faith.
That is good enough for me. I am not an Adventist, and would disagree with them on some doctrines, but they are my brothers and sisters in Christ. And I hope they regard me the same.
The question may well be...is orthodoxy heretical?
The thread title presents an odd question...from my perspective (both basic and prophetic), Revelation isn't John's book to tinker with.
Revelation 1:1-2 -- The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him to show to His bond-servants, the things which must soon take place, and He sent and communicated it by His angel to His bond-servant John, who testified to the word of God and to the testimony of Jesus Christ, even to all that he saw.
By the way I use my wife's pic as my avatar.
I wonder if I'm the only person round here who didn't realise that [:$]
By the way I use my wife's pic as my avatar. I wonder if I'm the only person round here who didn't realise that
I wonder if I'm the only person round here who didn't realise that
Lynden has used his own picture as an avatar previously, as I have. Believe me, neither of us are as lovely as our present avatar [:D]
When I was going to college, my university had a Revelation/Daniel combined course - if that tells you anything!
One of my favorite commentaries for Daniel is Stephen Miller's NAC commentary. You might already own it.
Another book (though outside of Logos) that I would recommend would be Alva McClain's Prophecy of the 70 Weeks. However, when it comes to specific dates - I think Harold Hoehner is on the money!
I think Harold Hoehner is on the money!
Chronological Aspects looks very interesting. There's an electronic version too. Raise a suggestion in the forum?
I think Harold Hoehner is on the money! Chronological Aspects looks very interesting. There's an electronic version too. Raise a suggestion in the forum?
http://community.logos.com/forums/p/48537/359888.aspx
This was just put on Pre-pub. https://www.logos.com/product/40915/studies-in-revelation
The third volume in this set is Dr. Paulien's Dissertation. https://www.logos.com/product/38542/lifeworks-of-jon-paulien
@ Allen Browne:
Thanks for the list. Can you recommend any Logos or otherwise relevant books that you think would be helpful for my study?
When I moved to my previous congregation in Portgordon on the Moray coast, I suggested that we have a Bible Study. They were enthusiastic and asked that we study Revelation. I suggested that we study Daniel first, which we did. Then when we moved on to Revelation it was more accessible for them and they got more out of it, so they said.
Similarly with my other congregation. They suggested Romans; I offered Galatians first. Again Galatians made Romans more accessible for them., or so they said.
I think it depends on where you, or your people are at.
Every blessing
Alan
Sorry Milkman
But that picture is a bit much
Can we get rid of it please - Mr Logos
Thanks Kevin
@ Kevin,
Fair enough. It should be deleted once the fine staff @ Logos get my request.
I have not done a comparative study end-times wise, but Daniel is indispensible to any and all believing Christians imho. Its all I preach from currently the few times a year I preach (with NT stuff there too...though frankly it would not have occurred to me to add Revelation until the end of the series...thanks). Those who feel Jesus and The Cross must be in every sermon....thanks....we agree. I keep that in mind as well as God's Missio Deo as well.
Blessings / Joshua
p.s. great question Milkman.
@ JoshInRI
Thanks brother. I'm still not sure how much temple study to do, nor how much Jewish interpretation of Ezekiel to consider. Any help from anyone would be hugely appreciated.
@ Kevin, Fair enough. It should be deleted once the fine staff @ Logos get my request. mm.
With a post count that high surely you know how to edit you own posts! [:O]
Just click on the "more" button on the upper right hand corner of your post and select "edit".
@ Josh,
After a while the option to 'edit' no longer exists. You only have three option to choose from:
Surely you should know this? [:O]
Opps, let me do an 'edit' here. Surely Josh you should know this? correct?
[:D] [:$]
I guess I've never tried to edit one of my posts a few days after. Why would Logos turn off the edit function after such a short time?
I don't know, doesn't really make sense to me 'now', but I'm sure there's a reason why. Could be a 'good' reason or 'not so good' reason. Why don't you ask them?
this is my 'edit'. By the way I do have the NAC Commentary. Thanks for your suggestions. I just ordered the Concordia commentaries on Ezekiel and the NIVACOT on it as well, plus one on Daniel and Revelation. I got the new book by Sam Storms as well. I already have Greg Beale's The Temple and the Church's Mission in paper back.
http://www.amazon.com/Temple-Churchs-Mission-Biblical-Theology/dp/0830826181/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1394742194&sr=1-1&keywords=the+temple+and+the+church%27s+mission
http://community.logos.com/forums/t/82170.aspx
https://www.logos.com/product/17347/concordia-commentary-ezekiel-1-20
https://www.logos.com/product/17348/concordia-commentary-ezekiel-21-48
https://www.logos.com/product/37650/the-niv-application-commentary-ezekiel
https://www.logos.com/product/8180/the-interpretation-of-st-johns-revelation
https://www.logos.com/product/17357/concordia-commentary-revelation
You are generally given about 6-12 hours (I'm not sure exactly) to edit...after that it gets locked. I'm certain it's less than 24 hours. I think it has something to do with maintaining thread integrity.
....We aren't sufficiently united to be able to agree on the definition of a heretic.
#TRUTH and #INSIGHTFUL
Can you recommend any Logos or otherwise relevant books that you think would be helpful for my study?
MM, The most relevant book is, of course, the Scriptures. Using an inductive approach that leads one to prayerfully discover what it says (OBSERVATION), then what it means (INTERPRETATION), and finally how it should affect my walk (APPLICATION); will give you a foundational understanding by which external resources can be evaluated as to their usefulness rather than potentially influencing your study unduly.
That said, I've found considerable help in Wright's Revelation For Everyone and Mattoon's Treasures In The Revelation (still gathering interest for Logos publication, but widely available in competitor's packages). These two resources are widely divergent in their presentation and neither is representative of the technical approach, however both have multiple references and whole sections dedicated to the relationships between Daniel, Ezekiel, and the Revelation. I also recommend the New American Commentary volume on the Revelation, with reservation.
Every blessing on your study!
@ Brother Mark,
Thanks! I'm leaning toward the NAC - Revelation. Not sure where Patterson comes from, I'm thinking pre-mill, but he was at one time president of the SBC.
Thanks again,
By the way I use my wife's pic as my avatar. I wonder if I'm the only person round here who didn't realise that Lynden has used his own picture as an avatar previously, as I have. Believe me, neither of us are as lovely as our present avatar
Lynden has used his own picture as an avatar previously, as I have. Believe me, neither of us are as lovely as our present avatar
Praying!! [:S]
You mean this is your wife? LOL 😂 cute short hair 😜😁
DAL
DAL - before this pic, there was his wife's pic.
I know 😁 I've seen it alternate before.
Beale's NICGT is perhaps the commentary that explores the most OT backgrounds to the book of Revelation and it references Daniel 284 times.
IMO, it is very important for NT interpretation generally, and certainly that of Revelation, to strive to understand where the OT leaves one in terms of hopes/divine promises for the future. It is also helpful to read other Jewish writings up to and contemporary with the NT for the same reasons. Although these were not part of the Jewish canon, they were read devotionally like some Christians today may read Augustine or Calvin. In other words, they were influential (although some of them may have been sectarian). I only know of NT Wright's work as a serious attempt to wrestle with these questions and relate the NT writings to them, but perhaps there are others.
I do not mean to discourage you by a recommendation of an overwhelming list of works to read, but fact is that we can often read NT writings completely ignorantly as if we had just picked up a cheap novel in a bookstore. The problem with shortcuts is that it does not really work even though it may give the impression that it does.
Yet if it is too much for you to delve this deeply into Revelation at this point, you may find Osborne BECNT useful in giving a very solid discussion of the book in a more approachable way than Beale.
Given that this thread started on Mar 11 2014 I'm not entirely sure it needs more answers. :-)
https://www.logos.com/product/49128/classic-commentaries-and-studies-on-daniel-upgrade
Is number six on the Community Pricing list.
