Expectations of Logos eBooks/Problem with MM Purchase

I just bought my first March Madness purchase, van Til's Christianity and Barthianism. It's been downloaded, and indexing is complete. Opening it up, however, I was surprised and disappointed to find some problems with it as a Logos edition:

There are no page numbers. There is no resource "go" bar, nor is there a way to turn page numbers on under visual filters.
Only some (a few?) of the hyperlinks to Barth's Church Dogmatics actually go there; most open up the "power lookup" panel with the reference repeated (no preview). As far as I can tell, all the times van Til gives the number in the English version of CD, Logos opens it up. Often he gives only the pages number for the German KD, and Logos then sometimes opens it up. (The Logos edition of CD is keyed also the German page numbering, so it shouldn't be a problem. And sorry, but I can't give you any examples of this because... this book has no page numbers.)

This is a Logos edition, which is described as "high quality electronic books prepared by Logos Bible Software. They feature rich markup, detailed tagging, and specialized support for academic and biblical data types." I think it is reasonable to expect that these features would be available. I'm surprised that they're not and disappointed that this information is not available on the product page before purchasing.

Is there a rhyme and reason to this that I'm missing?

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Comments

GregW

Hi Sean - I don't have this particular resource, so can't really answer the second point. I would be very surprised if the page numbers were missing. You do normally need to switch page numbers on for a resource in the desktop version of Logos. To do this, look for the three intersecting circles at the top of the resource window, and ensure that "page numbers" is checked. The page numbers should then appear in orange text at the beginning of each page. I am sorry but I don't have time at the moment to upload an image to clarify this.

Hopefully someone else with the resource will come along with some thoughts on the links.

NB.Mick

Sean,

Sorry to hear you aren't satisfied with your new book. I own neither the resource you describe nor Barth's Church Dogmatics, thus I can't help you directly, but I want to address one point of your post:

sorry, but I can't give you any examples of this because... this book has no page numbers

it would of course be possible (and perhaps beneficial for thos trying to understand your issue) to post a screenshot. However, page numbers aren't needed for an electronic resource. If you open the resource menu, you'll find a line "copy location as URL / Wiki / Reading List" - click the button that says URL and you'll be able to post a reference to a specified location in the resource (calculated based on the index information you choose to work with and an offset for navigation).

It's a great thing to hear that the Logos edition of CD has English and German pagination indexes, that's unusual. On the other hand, many older or originally third-party-produced resources lack references (the Book of Concord being one). Logos is sometimes updating resources with better references and we get these updates for free.

Fasil

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/579198#Comment_579198

Sean

Okay, to make this simpler for everyone, I took a snap:

The green circled links work; the red ones don't.

Looking around some more, on the book's information page I see it is an .lbxlls file. I also see on the product webpage linked in my previous post, "Do not miss out on the updated release of The Works of Cornelius Van Til." On that page it reads, among other things, "The new edition also includes enhancements like additional hyperlinks to other Libronix resources. Nearly 2,000 links have been added to Barth's Church Dogmatics alone."

Please do NOT tell me that I have to buy the collection to get an updated, working edition of the resource you've got on sale now.

Edit: Thanks Nick, the location for this shot is logosres:cvtchrbarth;art=h8.1.0.5;off=4687

Todd Phillips

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/579204#Comment_579204

Please do NOT tell me that I have to buy the collection to get an updated, working edition of the resource you've got on sale now.

Nope, you have the same resource as the one in the collection. None of the Van Til resources have page numbers. The Van Til resources are pretty old (released on CDROM in 1994) and, as far as I know, have never been updated. The resources are dated 2008, but I think that is the date of the conversion to the Libronix format (from the Logos 2 format). They certainly pre-exist the Barth resources and would have to be re-edited to get the links to Barth working. I'm surprised there are links in the first place. This would imply there is a broken Church Dogmatics datatype used for reference, or else the page numbers refer to an old edition of CD.

This is par for the course for older Logos resources, because Logos didn't have the same standards back then, and many third parties were doing resource development. In my opinion they are due for an update.

abondservant

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/579209#Comment_579209

Having been that long ago since it was updated and in conjunction with this post bringing the deficiencies to light I wouldn't be surprised at all to see a logos type person pop in and tell us they are working on it

also Sean to make a link active it needs a space after the URL.

NB.Mick

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/579215#Comment_579215

to make a link active it needs a space after the URL.

not for logosres:-links, this used to work many moons back, but went broken. These links will work if pasted as link target into the key-chain-link field, such as HERE

Sean

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/579215#Comment_579215

Having been that long ago since it was updated and in conjunction with this post bringing the deficiencies to light I wouldn't be surprised at all to see a logos type person pop in and tell us they are working on it

I hope that is the case. If they can push out a better version soon-ish (say, in a few months), I'm fine with that (except for resenting a little the time I've wasted trying to figure out what is going on). Otherwise I'm probably going to have to return it.

This does seem to be a fairly regular problem with Logos--you never really know what you're getting until you get it.

JT (alabama24)

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/579259#Comment_579259

I hope that is the case. If they can push out a better version soon-ish (say, in a few months), I'm fine with that (except for resenting a little the time I've wasted trying to figure out what is going on). Otherwise I'm probably going to have to return it.

Logos has thousands of resources and updates them regularly. With that said, the chance of the one YOU want updated in a few months is only likely if it has already been in the works.

David Paul

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/579260#Comment_579260

Not to burst your bubble, but a resource (TWOT) about which I posted significant issues over a year ago (and was told here on the forum by Bob himself that it was being moved to the front of the line) hasn't seen one identifiable update as of today.

abondservant

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/579259#Comment_579259

Having been that long ago since it was updated and in conjunction with this post bringing the deficiencies to light I wouldn't be surprised at all to see a logos type person pop in and tell us they are working on it

I hope that is the case. If they can push out a better version soon-ish (say, in a few months), I'm fine with that (except for resenting a little the time I've wasted trying to figure out what is going on). Otherwise I'm probably going to have to return it.

This does seem to be a fairly regular problem with Logos--you never really know what you're getting until you get it.

Best bet is going to be to call customer service. Fortunately Logos has a generous return policy, and on all of their new products their QC seems to be much higher.

Simon’s Brother

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/579270#Comment_579270

Not to burst your bubble, but a resource (TWOT) about which I posted significant issues over a year ago (and was told here on the forum by Bob himself that it was being moved to the front of the line) hasn't seen one identifiable update as of today.

Since TWOT is a Moody resource and no longer available for purchase I think you might be waiting a bit longer than was the plan back then...hope I am wrong.

Simon’s Brother

This is a Logos edition, which is described as "high quality electronic books prepared by Logos Bible Software. They feature rich markup, detailed tagging, and specialized support for academic and biblical data types."

I never believe marketing...particularly from Logos I'm sorry to say. Reality always lags behind it, often way to far behind it. Marketing like this is a generalisation ... and not good IMHO. I appreciate the software and what it does offer, and the people behind it but I just don't like the way some of the marketing is so loosely applied.

That said as a long term user of the product and long term owner of this set of resources I get why it lagging in comparison to some newer resources. I remember when this update you mention in your post was done. It was back in 2008 as Todd has already mentioned. And the update of the files was from the Logos LLS (Logos Library System 2.0) version files (which consisted of two files) into the the Libronix version of the files (a single file). Since then we have had Logos 4 and 5 released but the product has yet to be transformed into the Logos 4 format files.

You can ready about the 2008 update at this blog post: http://blog.logos.com/2008/04/new_edition_of_the_works_of_cornelius_van_til/

And to put into historical context the links that were added to Van Till to Barth back in 2008 this update of Van Til's works which included links to Van Till was made available at the time we first got Church Dogmatics into the Logos Library as this blog post shows:

http://blog.logos.com/2008/03/barths_church_dogmatics_coming_soon/

I originally owned the LLS format of these resources and so have seen the quality of them improved over the years, if I remember correctly the audio files used to be separate files on the CD that you had to manually copy over to your computer into the correct directory or place the CD into your drive to be able to use them - they were not embedded in a resource file like they are today. I agree though it is time they were updated to the latest format and had page numbers etc added.

David Paul

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/579319#Comment_579319

I like TWOT for the information within it, and so I plan on quoting it often in my forthcoming books. However, if Moody doesn't want to be FOREVER viewed as a clown outfit whose ability to maintain QC obviously hovers around 0%, they will fire their CEO, head guru, or whatever he or she is, and get this monumental bucket of shame taken care of. Having 2-4 sic's listed in a single quotation is practically unheard of in publishing, and some of the errors in TWOT are so mindbendingly stupid it rips credulity into shreds. Moody may want to pout and live up to its namesake's coincidental moniker where Logos is concerned, but if they don't do something soon to fix this unqualified disaster, they will be permanently enshrined along with the likes of Thomas Bowdler, Elbridge Gerry, and Buncombe County, NC in having Dwight Moody's name become a situational byword for questionable quality and dubious judgment in resolving issues. To "pull a Moody" will go into history as a persistence of failure perpetuated by incompetence and insupportable whining and heel-dragging. I'm sure Dwight Moody will be proud of the care taken of his legacy, since the majority of humanity will equate his name with absurd levels of incompetence exacerbated by a shameful unwillingness to do anything to resolve the failure.

Just to make this perfectly clear, the errors and mistakes in TWOT (at least the two Logos versions in circulation--L3 & L5) are STAGGERINGLY embarrassing and show an unheard of level of incompetence. Resolution isn't called for--it is demanded.

abondservant

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/579393#Comment_579393

Feeling a little vitriolic David?

Tell us how you really feel

Sean

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/579336#Comment_579336

I never believe marketing...particularly from Logos I'm sorry to say. Reality always lags behind it, often way to far behind it. Marketing like this is a generalisation ... and not good IMHO. I appreciate the software and what it does offer, and the people behind it but I just don't like the way some of the marketing is so loosely applied.

That said as a long term user of the product and long term owner of this set of resources I get why it lagging in comparison to some newer resources. I remember when this update you mention in your post was done. It was back in 2008 as Todd has already mentioned. And the update of the files was from the Logos LLS (Logos Library System 2.0) version files (which consisted of two files) into the the Libronix version of the files (a single file). Since then we have had Logos 4 and 5 released but the product has yet to be transformed into the Logos 4 format files.

You can ready about the 2008 update at this blog post: http://blog.logos.com/2008/04/new_edition_of_the_works_of_cornelius_van_til/

Thanks for the info. That post states,

[quote]You can do this same type of analysis for the places where Van Til cites Barth’s Church Dogmatics. As you may know, Van Til was a strong critic of Barth. Whether you agree with Van Til or not, you now have the ability to analyze his critique of Barth in ways never before possible. Instantly find all the places where Van Til cites Barth’s certain portions of CD. By the way, Barth’s Church Dogmatics will be shipping very soon. You still have a chance to get in at the Pre-Pub price.

In light of this I wonder why the linking in this work is so haphazard.

As noted I will probably have to call Logos, but unfortunately for me that means international long distance rates. It'd be nice if someone from Logos could post here and clarify.

Mark Barnes

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/579204#Comment_579204

The green circled links work; the red ones don't.

There isn't a problem with the resource. The links in your screenshot are correct.

That's because almost all the links in this resource are to the original German edition of Church Dogmatics. The green link in footnote 38 works because it is a link specifically to the English translation. The green link in footnote 40 works, because pg 288 of the German edition happens to be a page containing a section heading. The English edition of Church Dogmatics includes the German page numbers at each section heading, and therefore Logos knows that pg 288 of the German edition is page 257 of the English edition, and the link to KD 288 takes you to CD 257. None of the other links work, because you don't have Kirchliche Dogmatik. But, if Logos do ever bring out that resource, all your Van Til links will magically start to work, without even the resource needing to be updated. Not bad, eh? I don't suppose anyone would like to retract anything they've said in this thread about the quality of Logos' links, would they? [:P]

The page numbers in Van Til are a different issue, of course. That is annoying, but as others have said, it's an old resource.

Sean

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/579492#Comment_579492

Thanks for the very useful information, Mark. But I do not wish to retract anything. Why should the users have to struggle and struggle to figure these things out, rather than Logos simply disclosing the product specifications so fully informed purchasing decisions can be made?

Mark Barnes

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/579502#Comment_579502

Why should the users have to struggle and struggle to figure these things out, rather than Logos simply disclosing the product specifications so fully informed purchasing decisions can be made?

I agree about page numbers.

But I don't see what Logos could/should have done differently with regard to the links to Kirchliche Dogmatik. You don't own the resource, so the links don't work. That's how it always is.

If there's any confusion, you should blame van Til, or the original publishers, not Logos. To 'figure it out' all you need to do is follow the 'ibids' back to footnote 1 (as you would do in any work), where it clearly states that the references are to Kirchliche Dogmatik.

Sean

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/579553#Comment_579553

Why should the users have to struggle and struggle to figure these things out, rather than Logos simply disclosing the product specifications so fully informed purchasing decisions can be made?

I agree about page numbers.

But I don't see what Logos could/should have done differently with regard to the links to Kirchliche Dogmatik. You don't own the resource, so the links don't work. That's how it always is.

If there's any confusion, you should blame van Til, or the original publishers, not Logos. To 'figure it out' all you need to do is follow the 'ibids' back to footnote 1 (as you would do in any work), where it clearly states that the references are to Kirchliche Dogmatik.

I don't want to make a bigger deal of this than what it is. It is a good book, and after doing significant reading I've decided to keep it. However, the initial discovery of the lack of page numbers, which limits its usefulness for academic purposes, was very off-putting. It's more like a Kindle book than a Logos book in that regard. At a bare minimum, Logos should disclose that sort of information on product pages if they don't want customers to look askance at them.

The problem with the KD links was confusing not because of a lack of understanding what "KD" referred to but because some of them worked and some of them didn't. That confusion was further compounded by the fact that CD, the English version available in Logos, always shows in the go-bar a page number (albeit non-advancing) for KD. Given these two facts, it was not an unreasonable assumption that the other links to KD should open in CD but for some reason weren't. You, not Logos, gave an explanation for that which makes sense and for which I am appreciative. If Logos's edition of CD is only keyed to KD on the section headings, then it's perfectly understandable that the other links don't work. Again, a line or two of documentation in the books or on the product pages could have also cleared this up and saved me some headaches, but Logos doesn't do documentation like that. Instead, it seems like the forums are the primary way to get this sort of information. This particular customer would prefer a different arrangement.

DMB

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/579393#Comment_579393

I agree that page numbers ought to 'be' if there were 'be'. Saying it's an older volume simply means Logos has been selling defective product for longer than normal. I get the feeling Logos isn't aware of what 'defective product' is, as long as an 'update' might occur before the end of time.

I think David has really gone beyond the pail (I'm afraid to ask exactly what that phrase means). But associating Dwight Moody with TWOT and then Barr seems pretty bad. Even at church these days, someone says 'well, he's just being Moody' and then everyone HAS to ask 'Dwight?'.

David Paul

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/579594#Comment_579594

I think David has really gone beyond the pail (I'm afraid to ask exactly what that phrase means).

So, do you wonder what it means generally...or what it means in relation to me? [:|]

To answer the first question, this may help...as may this. I must recuse myself from answering the second.

DMB

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/579599#Comment_579599

Hmmm ... that is interesting. 'Pale' = 'stake' like in the Staked Plains ('Llano Estacado', another story that eventually peters out from lack of evidence, though later ranchers laughed at 'Steaked Plains').

Brother Mark

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/579393#Comment_579393

so mindbendingly stupid it rips credulity into shreds.

David, may I have permission to apply your quote to political conversations without attribution, or should I print business cards with this URL referencing your classic description? [;)]

TCBlack

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/579795#Comment_579795

so mindbendingly stupid it rips credulity into shreds.

David, may I have permission to apply your quote to political conversations without attribution, or should I print business cards with this URL referencing your classic description? Wink

This.