New Idea for a Base Package!

With all the new base packages floating around now, I am finding myself left out. That, in itself, doesn't really surprise me. I don't adhere to any pre-packaged view of Scripture, whether old or recent. What I do adhere to is the Bible. This may sound a little odd, but I would like to suggest the creation of a "Bible Study" base package.

That may sound a little cheeky, but let me explain what I am getting at. There are elements of the SDA and Anglican packages that cause them to be attractive to me for two reasons: 1) they have great value (which is probably my most pressing concern--I have to get the most for my money), and 2) they include resources that I consider potentially useful. But these base package "coins" have two sides. On the other side, both of these have MASSIVE amounts of stuff that I have absolutely no interest in. I have no doubt the folks in those streams are tickled with this "in-house" material, but it is valueless to me.

The kinds of things I would like to see in a base package are tons of language resources, tons of "OT" and "NT" resources, tons of Judaism and Intertestamental resources (incl. so-called "second temple" stuff), tons of commentaries, and tons of "process" resources, i.e. exegesis and hermeneutics resources, and tons of ancient historical resources (contemporary and modern authorship, up to about 200-300CE). In fact, if I was going to give a name to this kind of package, other than Bible Studies base package, I might call it an Exegesis base package.

Before going into what I don't want in a base package, a quick statement about the first base packages in Logos (L2 to L5) prior to Verbum making its debut. As far back as I can remember with Logos, its base packages have had scads and reams and loads of stuff that has absolutely no value or utility for me, and is nothing but dead wood as far as I am concerned. I wouldn't be surprised if 1/3 to 1/2 of what I have in my Library is stuff I wouldn't read even if I had a million years to spend. In my view, that is a significant hit to my value quotient.

So then, things I don't want to have in a base package are devotionals, ministerial resources, preaching resources, "in-house" creedal statements, "church" history after 200-300CE, missiology, church vs. world diatribes, ecumenicalism, evangelistic how-tos, hymnology, biographies, and I 'm sure I'm leaving out other stuff besides. Historically, many of the same folks produced resources that were part of both my "do want" and "don't want" lists. Generally, if it is about the Bible and what it says or means, then "yes". If it has pretty much anything to do with "how to apply", and personal or communal practice, or the like, then "no". Those are the areas where misunderstandings in the "yes" pile bloom into errors of increasing irrelevancy.

As attractive as Anglican Diamond is with ICC in it, I could easily jettison 2/5 to 1/2 of what's in it and not bat an eyelash of concern...maybe even more. Which just leaves me wishing I could fill in with stuff that actually means something to me. And that, after all, is what these base packages are all about...getting people stuff that they will actually use. I have tons of stuff in my Wish List, quite a bit of which would make for decent base package material. I actually thought about suggesting a David Paul base package, but that seemed a little too narrow to generate sufficient interest (even though a DP base package would totally rock!). [:P]

Also, I'm not saying all of what I have assigned to my "no" pile is of no value to me whatsoever. I just don't want it injected willy-nilly into my library, because I already have more than enough as it is. Besides, I can always pick up the odd outlier on occasion if I feel the need.

Would anyone else like a historical, BOOK-focused, "what does it say, what does it mean, in the original languages" kind of base package that isn't saddled with churchianity trappings and social ornamentation? Am I alone in this?

[*-)]

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Comments

Mike Pettit

That would be the Reformed base package then.

David Paul

Not even close. Talk about Dullsville...

Mark Barnes

A base package that focussed on commentaries/lexicons, and ditched most monographs would be very popular amongst preachers, I think.

David Paul

Yes, that is on track with my thinking, up to a point. However, many resources that are considered monographs are actually tightly-focused commentaries on a particular topic in the Bible. I am interested in those kinds of resources as well. The kinds of things I could do without are huge sections of the stuff so popular in March Madness: John MacArthur, John Piper, A. W. Tozer, Oswald Chambers, and especially Max Lucado. In other words, stuff where you can read for page after page and not encounter a Scripture reference or a non-English word.

Alan Macgregor

I would like to suggest the creation of a "Bible Study" base package.

David,

Having read your description of your ideal base package, I think I would call it a Biblical Studies base package. It would have an emphasis on textual, language and exegetical resources with added scholarly journals (e.g. Semeia). Its target would be biblical exegetes who have some facility with the original languages, many of whom would also be preachers/teachers.

I would like that sort of package. It is actually the kind of resource library that I was building towards, albeit slowly, in the Logos 2 and Libronix days, before I acquired OLL, then Gold in Libronix. It would include from the base collections resource types:

Ancient Texts and Morphologies
Bible Commentaries (Academic/Scholarly - e.g. WBC, ICC, AYB, Hermeneia)
Biblical Studies
English Bibles
Exegesis and Interpretation
Patristics
Original Language Grammars and Tools
Original Language Lexicons

It wouldn't have the rest of the resource types usually found in base collections.

Every blessing

Alan

David Paul

Alan, YES...journals! I completely overlooked those, but they are exactly the kinds of resources I would want. When I say overlooked, I could have tripped over them, since they are one of my main resource folders in my library. Essay collections, too!

DMB

David, you're descibing my library (and probably yours too). I've spent maybe $15K though I'd suspect $10-12K subtracting out my Asherah and Anat volumes. Probably your package could let the purchaser optionally pick their commentary sets to match their message, etc.

Of course Logos would not reap the big bucks on century old re-treads. People would loose their jobs. The real estate market in downtown Bellingham would crater (along with the 9 story building architect's practice). Is this something any of us can really stomach?

MJ. Smith

It would include from the base collections resource types:

Ancient Texts and Morphologies

Bible Commentaries (Academic/Scholarly - e.g. WBC, ICC, AYB, Hermeneia)

Biblical Studies

English Bibles

Exegesis and Interpretation

Patristics

Original Language Grammars and Tools

Original Language Lexicons

Sounds like you're describing the Orthodox base packages (with a few extra commentaries) [:P]

Nick Steffen

Sounds like you're describing the Orthodox base packages (with a few extra commentaries)

And here I was going to say the Anabaptist base package. [:)]

I'm also looking forward to the Jewish base package (presumably all of the above along with Rashi and Rambam, Sifra and Sifre, and the Rabbah among others). Though to be honest, I'll be happy if they simply kept updating the bundles.

Steve Nicholson

Count me in for a Biblical Studies Base Package!

Kent

So then, things I don't want to have in a base package are devotionals, ministerial resources, preaching resources, "in-house" creedal statements, "church" history after 200-300CE, missiology, church vs. world diatribes, ecumenicalism, evangelistic how-tos, hymnology, biographies, and I 'm sure I'm leaving out other stuff besides. Historically, many of the same folks produced resources that were part of both my "do want" and "don't want" lists. Generally, if it is about the Bible and what it says or means, then "yes". If it has pretty much anything to do with "how to apply", and personal or communal practice, or the like, then "no". Those are the areas where misunderstandings in the "yes" pile bloom into errors of increasing irrelevancy.

You do not want ministerial resources, preaching resources, or church history (scholarly resources)...

I am of a different mind- these are exactly what I want in a base package.

David Paul

Might I suggest Portfolio then...it has a trainload of such things.

That said, I have often wondered at the decision to include tons of ministerial and preaching and counseling resources in the top-end package that Logos offers, things not offered in any other package. That, to my way of thinking is bizarre. What could possibly motivate that decision??

tom

have MASSIVE amounts of stuff that I have absolutely no interest in

I completely agree. When a person posts 'What package should I buy?", I always respond with something like, 'purchase what you are going to use.'

I purchased L3's OL, and I have not upgraded my package. What I have done is to purchase items that I would use, created PB's, and use notes as an electronic file cabinet to store items that I think I will use at a later time.

As a Lutheran, I even find that the Lutheran packages full of items that I will not use/want.

tom

A base package that focussed on commentaries/lexicons, and ditched most monographs would be very popular amongst preachers, I think.

[y]

David Paul

have MASSIVE amounts of stuff that I have absolutely no interest in
I completely agree. When a person posts 'What package should I buy?", I always respond with something like, 'purchase what you are going to use.'
I purchased L3's OL, and I have not upgraded my package. What I have done is to purchase items that I would use, created PB's, and use notes as an electronic file cabinet to store items that I think I will use at a later time.

As a Lutheran, I even find that the Lutheran packages full of items that I will not use/want.

I have an ambivalent take on this. First, I really would prefer not having tons of dead wood on my hard drive and library. It does nothing but increase download times and indexing times, for no benefit whatsoever. It simply isn't true to say "it doesn't hurt" to have it. On the other hand, I bought Portfolio because it gave me things I wanted at the best value I could get them at. On that point, L4 was a decision I made after about 5-10 seconds of looking at what it contained. The decision to get L5 Portfolio was a week-long, agonizing ordeal, because the value line was so blurry it was practically a toss-up. At the time, I lamented the fact that Portfolio, the flagship product of Logos, was so beleaguered with fluff and junk that it was not the same kind of slam dunk decision as L4's Portfolio had been. It simply shouldn't be.

That's what I am looking for in a Biblical Studies base package...a package without fluff, or at least as little as possible.

That said, I think that to get the things I wanted and currently have, Portfolio was the best economical way to get them--even though getting it meant I had to swallow a few horse pills of (for my purposes) junk. I just wish I could have traded out fluff, even at 3:1 or 4:1, for things I could get utility from.

DMB

I like your idea (so, my old Libronix OL). But I still don't think it's by accident there's no such puppy at Logos. Read the copy on a typical package. I'm not even sure they could write copy for the dream package.

Mark Barnes

As a Lutheran, I even find that the Lutheran packages full of items that I will not use/want.

That will be true of all base packages everywhere. Often, for me, the attraction in the base package is a very few high-ticket items that are included. The rest is just a bonus. I'll probably never use much of it, but I've found over time that there have been several occasions where I've followed a rabbit trail and ended up at a very helpful resource that came with a base package years ago that I had never really used before.

Rich DeRuiter

That said, I have often wondered at the decision to include tons of ministerial and preaching and counseling resources in the top-end package that Logos offers, things not offered in any other package. That, to my way of thinking is bizarre. What could possibly motivate that decision??

Logos primary customer base for new and continued purchases are pastors. Does that explain it?

I think you could expect that such a Biblical Studies base package would be more expensive per book than other packages. These resources are more expensive to buy and more expensive for Logos to tag and keep up to date with its own technological advances.

Logos had something similar in the Original Languages pack (for Libronix), but it didn't sell very well and was dropped when L4 came along (going by memory here, so...). Given that, I suspect that a Biblical Studies pack would be appeal to niche market, and not sell well. This tends to disincentivize publishers from providing the kinds of discounts we see in other base packages, and would be a factor in likely making such a pack even more expensive per resource than other packs.

Having said all that, given Logos' recent string of niche base package releases (Reformed, SDA, Orthodox, Catholic, etc.), I don't see a reason that this would not be possible--even if it would market to a different sort of niche.

BTW, as long as you're asking, it might be helpful to suggest a trio of base packages here: an Old Testament Biblical Studies pack, a New Testament Biblical Studies pack, and a Full Canon Biblical Studies pack (we'll let MJ and Bob slug out what 'full canon' means). To make it more interesting, we could also include a Septuagint Biblical Studies Pack, and the separate the Old Testament Biblical Studies pack into a Hebrew only version and a combined (with the LXX) version.

All just my humble opinion, of course. But such packs would certainly get close scrutiny from me, if not a purchase in one or more of these areas.

Whyndell Grizzard

have MASSIVE amounts of stuff that I have absolutely no interest in
I completely agree. When a person posts 'What package should I buy?", I always respond with something like, 'purchase what you are going to use.'
I purchased L3's OL, and I have not upgraded my package. What I have done is to purchase items that I would use, created PB's, and use notes as an electronic file cabinet to store items that I think I will use at a later time.

As a Lutheran, I even find that the Lutheran packages full of items that I will not use/want.

I have an ambivalent take on this. First, I really would prefer not having tons of dead wood on my hard drive and library. It does nothing but increase download times and indexing times, for no benefit whatsoever. It simply isn't true to say "it doesn't hurt" to have it. On the other hand, I bought Portfolio because it gave me things I wanted at the best value I could get them at. On that point, L4 was a decision I made after about 5-10 seconds of looking at what it contained. The decision to get L5 Portfolio was a week-long, agonizing ordeal, because the value line was so blurry it was practically a toss-up. At the time, I lamented the fact that Portfolio, the flagship product of Logos, was so beleaguered with fluff and junk that it was not the same kind of slam dunk decision as L4's Portfolio had been. It simply shouldn't be.

That's what I am looking for in a Biblical Studies base package...a package without fluff, or at least as little as possible.

That said, I think that to get the things I wanted and currently have, Portfolio was the best economical way to get them--even though getting it meant I had to swallow a few horse pills of (for my purposes) junk. I just wish I could have traded out fluff, even at 3:1 or 4:1, for things I could get utility from.

David I agree- nothing like being "forced" to buy stuff you will never use to get what you want- the next upgrade Logos does will definitely have one less customer other than a basic update.

If it was not so tedious I would delete or at least block all the "junk books"- I know I have books I have and will never even open up.

abondservant

That said, I have often wondered at the decision to include tons of ministerial and preaching and counseling resources in the top-end package that Logos offers, things not offered in any other package. That, to my way of thinking is bizarre. What could possibly motivate that decision??

Logos primary customer base for new and continued purchases are pastors. Does that explain it?

I think you could expect that such a Biblical Studies base package would be more expensive per book than other packages. These resources are more expensive to buy and more expensive for Logos to tag and keep up to date with its own technological advances.

Logos had something similar in the Original Languages pack (for Libronix), but it didn't sell very well and was dropped when L4 came along (going by memory here, so...). Given that, I suspect that a Biblical Studies pack would be appeal to niche market, and not sell well. This tends to disincentivize publishers from providing the kinds of discounts we see in other base packages, and would be a factor in likely making such a pack even more expensive per resource than other packs.

Having said all that, given Logos' recent string of niche base package releases (Reformed, SDA, Orthodox, Catholic, etc.), I don't see a reason that this would not be possible--even if it would market to a different sort of niche.

BTW, as long as you're asking, it might be helpful to suggest a trio of base packages here: an Old Testament Biblical Studies pack, a New Testament Biblical Studies pack, and a Full Canon Biblical Studies pack (we'll let MJ and Bob slug out what 'full canon' means). To make it more interesting, we could also include a Septuagint Biblical Studies Pack, and the separate the Old Testament Biblical Studies pack into a Hebrew only version and a combined (with the LXX) version.

All just my humble opinion, of course. But such packs would certainly get close scrutiny from me, if not a purchase in one or more of these areas.

So long as we've opened the door, why not make it four:

OT, NT, cannon + deuterocannon (this being the equivalent of portfolio, but for MJ), and Cannon (this being the "portfolio" of the line for protestants).

George Somsel

I just wish I could have traded out fluff, even at 3:1 or 4:1, for things I could get utility from.

BTW: I agree. [:D]

George Somsel

BTW, as long as you're asking, it might be helpful to suggest a trio of base packages here: an Old Testament Biblical Studies pack, a New Testament Biblical Studies pack, and a Full Canon Biblical Studies pack (we'll let MJ and Bob slug out what 'full canon' means). To make it more interesting, we could also include a Septuagint Biblical Studies Pack, and the separate the Old Testament Biblical Studies pack into a Hebrew only version and a combined (with the LXX) version.

Bob Pritchett

It sounds like you're asking for one or more of our topical bundles:

https://www.logos.com/bundles

These are effectively 'base' bundles with highly focused collections of resources around a single topic.

-- Bob

Rosie Perera

These are effectively 'base' bundles with highly focused collections of resources around a single topic.

When you say they are effectively 'base' bundles, does that mean they unlock the functionality of all the datasets and features that people need a base package (or minimal crossgrade) for?

Bob Pritchett

Sorry... that's a good point, Rosie.

Now that we have dynamic pricing, and ways to make base packages more easily, we can look at doing other bases.

We're also looking to add the ability to control which books are downloaded to your local laptop/desktop, as we do for mobile. This will let you keep 'fluff' off your hard drive.

The fundamental problem, though, is that one person's fluff is another's valuable tool. And for the few things everyone considers fluff... well, that stuff didn't really affect the price of the package. It's like ordering the Happy Meal at McDonald's for $3.99 and saying "but I don't need the toy or the crayons or the fancy box." Okay, so now it's $3.98. :-) They aren't going to swap those things for another hamburger.

(I wish it worked that way... then I could swap the cornbread and coleslaw on my BBQ platter for another half-rack of ribs...)

-- Bob

Rosie Perera

Now that we have dynamic pricing, and ways to make base packages more easily, we can look at doing other bases.

There should be a simple entry point for new users who want all the functionality but want to choose their content themselves. Why not create a very basic base package that has virtually no content, but that unlocks all the datasets and tools, and that people can add most of their content on top of selectively by buying bundles such as the above? I know that's essentially what the "minimal crossgrade" does, but the terminology is confusing for people. They think it's meant only for moving from a previous version of Logos to the current one, etc. And it does contain some books that people wouldn't want. Even the Core Datasets package contains content some people wouldn't want (a devotional, bible illustrations, plant & animals freebies, etc.) and it doesn't contain all the datasets that Minimal Crossgrade does. So for the hardcore folks who really just want what they want, they need Logos JC Foundation (built on the foundation of Jesus Christ and nothing else...) (Unfortunately Verbum Foundations has already stolen the "Foundation" name though.)

David Paul

Now that I know this is being "looked at", let me say something I intended to say earlier. IF a Bible Study base package were offered, I think that it would need to have a variety of builds. In other words, just as Anglican has Starter, Bronze, Silver, Gold, Platinum, and Diamond, I would desire all of those levels, but actually at least a few more. I don't know if Portfolio is appropriate as a next step, because I'm not sure what would come after that, and I do think something else needs to come after that. What I am envisioning is essentially a Bible Specialist's Package--Unobtainium Edition. Would this be expensive? Um...yes. But, it would also have the lion's share of what I want. I've said it elsewhere, and I will repeat it here--I will spend lots of money IF I can get crazy value. I will spend Master Bundle XL funds IF I can get that much stuff w/o the Catholic, Baptist, Reformed, Women's, Church History, Preaching, Counseling, Pastoral, Devotional, Philosophy & Apologetics, Marriage & Family, and Devotional bundles, with that gap filled-in with my Wish List, which is pretty much just more of the same kind of stuff found in the other remaining bundles. It might have a few cherry-picked items from the bundles mentioned above, but not much.

Most of the stuff in my Wish List will remain there forever...unless I can get base package pricing on it, and I've got a pretty big wish list. Yeah, I'm asking for an absurd deal on what I'd like to see in this Unobtainium package...but that's only because it's going to cost me an absurd amount of money to get it. I can live with that...IF I can get that.

Nick Steffen

These are effectively 'base' bundles with highly focused collections of resources around a single topic.

Bob, is there a chance then that we would see the resources available in the current base packages also take on the form of topical bundles? Not sure what others think, but I would be a fan. [:)]

Todd Phillips

We're also looking to add the ability to control which books are downloaded to your local laptop/desktop, as we do for mobile. This will let you keep 'fluff' off your hard drive.

Let me just say: Yay!

(That is, if this means two different computers on the same account can have different books downloaded)

Windows tablets and ultrabooks just got more interesting.

David Paul

So I went ahead and took an absurd amount of time (like I didn't go to sleep last night at all) and scrounged together this puppy...

...basically, I envision this sitting on top of Portfolio. Is it a base package, or a supplement? That's up to Logos to decide; they would have to include the base package toys. I'm not saying this is exhaustive--I'm pretty certain it isn't--but this is what I want. Actually, I have big chunks (pieces-parts) of this already. Anyway, make this attractive enough, and I will get it...I promi$$$e.

PROTO-LOGOS UNOBTANIUM COLLECTION

Bibles

hebrew-new-testament
the-leiden-peshitta

Ancient Texts

Ancient Languages

Commentaries

application-commentaries-bundle
ancient-christian-commentary-on-scripture-complete-set-updated-edition
the-annotated-bible
anchor-yale-bible
ancient-faith-biblical-and-theological-studies-bundle
augsburg-commentary-on-the-new-testament
baker-commentary-on-the-old-testament-wisdom-and-psalms
baker-exegetical-commentary-on-the-new-testament
baylor-handbook-series
berit-olam-studies-in-hebrew-narrative-and-poetry
bible-biography-series
boices-expositional-commentaries
brazos-theological-commentary-on-the-bible
catholic-commentary-on-sacred-scripture
commentary-on-the-pentateuch
concordia-commentary
cornerstone-biblical-commentaries
eerdmans-commentary-collection
eerdmans-critical-commentary-series
eerdmans-new-testament-commentaries-collection
eerdmans-wesleyan-bible-commentary
encountering-john-the-gospel-in-historical-literary-and-theological-perspective
the-epistle-to-the-romans
evangelical-exegetical-commentary
exegetical-commentaries-bundle
exegetical-summaries-series
expositions-of-holy-scripture
the-first-and-second-epistles-to-the-thessalonians
focus-on-the-bible-commentaries
forms-of-the-old-testament-literature-series
the-gospel-in-genesis-from-fig-leaves-to-faith
h-c-leupold-commentary-collection
henry-cowles-commentary-series
hermeneia-and-continental-commentaries
inquiry-into-the-usage-of-baptizo
international-critical-commentary-series
interpretation-a-bible-commentary-for-teaching-and-preaching
ivp-new-testament-commentary-series
ignatius-catholic-study-bible-new-testament-genesis-exodus-and-the-rsv2ce
john-darbys-synopsis-of-the-books-of-the-bible
john-eadie-commentaries-and-bible-reference-collection
luthers-works
mentor-commentary-series
navarre-bible-new-testament-standard-edition
new-covenant-commentary-series
notes-on-the-hebrew-text-of-the-books-of-samuel
the-numerical-bible
old-testament-for-everyone-series
paideia-commentaries-on-the-new-testament
pauls-second-epistle-to-the-corinthians
the-person-and-work-of-christ-collection
pillar-new-testament-commentary
popular-commentary-on-the-new-testament
preachers-homiletic-commentary
preaching-the-word-series
randall-house-bible-commentary
reformation-commentary-on-scripture
sacra-pagina-new-testament-commentary-series
social-science-commentary
socio-rhetorical-commentary-series
studies-on-christ-and-his-kingdom-collection
tyndale-commentaries
ubs-handbook-series-old-and-new-testament-collection
understanding-the-bible-commentary-series
welwyn-commentary-series
westminster-bible-companion-series
womens-bible-commentary
word-biblical-commentary
old-testament-commentary-survey-5th-ed

Biblical Studies

Journals

Apologetics

baker-studies-in-apologetics-collection

Encyclopedias & Dictionaries

Handbooks and Introductions

Exegesis and Interpretation

Theology

Ancient & Biblical History and Archaeology

Bible Atlas

rose-then-and-now-bible-map-atlas-with-biblical-background-and-culture

Of course, I probably won't be able to get it all in one chunk, but if it is broken into modules or something of the sort, I will pick it up a piece at a time.

[G]

George Somsel

And the total price is … $29.95. [;)]

abondservant

Cool fact: I own one of James D.G. Dunn's Bibles.

Butttt there are a lot of titles in that I wouldn't necessarily be interested in.

Kind of surprised that you didn't include Themelios - but then I noticed you did include a lot of Arminean titles. Would you perhaps prefer an Arminean base package?